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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My AR15 KaBoomed - from Maine Cartridge Co. SS109 (Updated Page 14 More Lying/More Stupidity) (Page 6 of 7)
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Ammunition Manufacturers - even remanufactured ammo - are required by law to have insurance for this very reason. With that said, this is beating a dead horse to death for now since I am working on the next step of this ordeal. I will update here accordingly once the Manufacturer has been addressed of this matter again. |
MCC Lawyer- "Now. Mr. Smith, how do we know that YOU didn't fire the ammunition and subsequently use the case and reload a defective round?"  |
I have looked at samples of of the commercially boxed ammo that I have from Federal, Winchester, and Black Hills. The Lake City and WCC stuff is unmarked. The only one that has anything even resembling a warranty statement is the Black Hills, and that's "we warrant the excercise of reasonable care in the manufacture of these cartridges but make no other warranty, expressed or implied." I'm assuming that means if you open the box and bullets and powder fall out, BH will fix you up. You shoot them six years after you buy them, they can say "sorry, can't help you" if they wish. (NOTE for those who have trouble: I'm just using Black Hills as an example, not accusing them of sucking.) From reading various other threads, MCC is nowhere near the reputable ammo maker the BH is, good luck. Been cruising a number of ammo sites, Winchester, Federal, IMI and Black Hills. Very hard to find anything about being on the hook for problems with your weapon, and they seem to exclude explosions. |
I think at this point I would be more upset about the obvious lie MCC submitted as to the cause of the malfunction. Fuck them. I may never see a single round of their ammo in my life, but if I did, I would pass it up. They rank with A-Merc and Olympic as ammo I would never shoot, purchase, and would warn all others about. Good thing you were not injured, imagine the crap they would spew then.... |
This ties right in with the other thread reference Oly's website and their ammunition "warning". Basically Oly says use of anything other than brand-new, current production US made ammunition violates their "warranty" and then says if you get a ka-Boom, go to the ammunition manufacturer - not Oly. Nice bit of double-talk and redirection. Wolf haters should note that Oly's statement includes ANY Black Hills 'remanufactured' (let alone 'second tier' remnaufactured like Georgia Arms); any surplus (to include, I'd wager, any US 'seconds' like XM193 or XM855 - if you assume its 'seconds' - and any IMI ammo like Q3131A), and anything else Oly could weasel out of. |
What they may directly state in a warrenty and what they are in fact responcible for can be two different things. Much like the trucks with the "Stay back 500 feet. Not responcible for damage". Well, if that sign convinces you not to press the issue when an iron bar falls out and crushes your windshield then it has served it's purpose. In reality it's meaningless. State law controls who is responcible for failure to secure a load and how much the damage threshold is. Same here. They may not accept that it is thier fault, but it is. Squib loads happen and while I would ascribe some portion of responcibility to the shooter for not recognizing the condition the fact is that it was a faulty round distributed by MCC. They can disclaim it all they want but that is the fact of the matter. Product liabilty law is going to fall on J_Smiths side of this. Now, concerning it being worth the money to persue it and force them to court.... probably not. If they are not a stand-up company the best you can really hope for is to never buy from them again and spread the word. If they won't pony up volentarily to fix a damaged rifle based on these findings then they are telling the world that you are on your own no matter what kind of crap they charge money for and "You make me" is the word when it comes to customer service. |
And if you could get expert metal analysis that showed that Oly's barrel was flawed or cracked or improperly installed or overly long FP you might be able to nail them in spite of that but it would cost many times the replacement cost of the rifle and they know it. |
So how does that compare with Bushmasters warranty? From the Bushmaster website: "Bushmaster Firearms, Inc. will not be responsible for the results of careless handling, unauthorized adjustments, defective, low quality, reloaded, or improper ammunition, corrosion, neglect, ordinary wear and tear, or unreasonable use." Sounds to me like Bushmaster covers it even better than Oly. A 1 year, limited warranty and a blanket statement against any defective, low quality, reloaded or improper ammunition. That covers just about anything their lawyers want it to. NO manufacturer is going to warranty a firearm that was destroyed due to an ammo problem, and that includes ANY ammo made by ANY company. |
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The take-away from this is that it is much cheaper in the long run to shoot quality ammo. The 25 bucks you save on the latest Sqatemalan surplus or range-pickup Cletus' Cartridge Company remans get flushed as soon as your gun blows up and you are SOL. Sucks, but that's the nature of the beast, I guess. Probably the result of one-too many successful lawsuits by some 'tard who blew off his fingers doint something blatantly stupid he felt he shpuld have been warned against or protected from. |
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I spoke to Maine Cartridge Company today. The owner is convinced he is not liable and denies any responsibility based on the fact that I do not have the original receipt and or packaging. While his original story was that his "gunsmith" has determined that the rifle had "fired out of battery", this was clearly ruled not to be the case by Bushmaster Firearms's gunsmith, Jim Eden. When the owner of MCC recieved the letter and findings I mailed him, he called Bushmaster to discuss the isssue. His story is now that he doesn't believe the ammunition was his to start with since I cannot prove a lot #, powder type, or primer type. He stated something about the primer pockets being reamed differently then how he does them - but none of it made much sense. Especially his analysis of the ammunition fired when the cartridge casing is STILL in the gun. He's convinced his ammunition is not to blame but was leery to blame Bushmaster since Bushmaster clearly is NOT to blame here - nor is any mechanical aspect of the rifle. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I was firing Maine Cartridge Company SS109/M855 ammunition when my firearm blew up from a case head failure. MCC prefers to deny any responsibility based on my lack of receipts from 6-7 years ago. I am consulting with a legal office at this time. I may not win this case - but I have my entire life left to expose a company which has lied to me by blowing smoke in my face. I am NOT impressed. |
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First off, not taking sides here, but let's look at this from a legal perspective: If the MCC ammo was at fault and the manufacturer would not admit to it, it would be up to you to file a civil case to seek remuneration for damages. Since no personal injury occurred, there is almost no hope of punitive damages. So, you would have to file a small claims case in NH, where the failure occurred, and serve MCCin Maine (I presume) or file in a higher court. Then, you would have to show evidence to convince a judge or a jury that the defective product was the primary cause of the incident and that, under the law, the manufacturer was liable. This all costs way more than a new rifle. My $0.02 - I would believe Bushmaster long before I would believe MCC. Their analysis of the event appears to be more authoritative and complete. Based on their assertion of the cause, this is yet another vote to stay away from MCC ammo, which already has a less than sterling reputation on the internet. I am sorry to see it all went down like this. I am just glad no one got seiously hurt and the only loss was one good rifle. |
Not in small claims court. Preponderance of the evidence is all that's needed. He's not going to need $500/hr expert testimony. Bushmaster's analysis would likely have more weight. No proof you purchased the ammo from him could hurt you though and it's clear MCC is now going to take the 'that ain't mine' stance so you have nothing to prove that it is. That and the manufacturers disclaimer on reloaded ammo could put you an poor footing as well. |
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What you need to do is simple, go to work on them. File a complaint with the local Better Business folks in his town, maybe drop a line to OSHA and see what they can do. The state may have some authority to review your complaint so check, do the same with your state as well. Maybe they have a state version of OSHA, you got injured using their product it wont hurt to file a complaint. Does the ATF regulate people that commerically sell defective ammo? Post a review of their crappy product and service on every gun board on earth, copies of their response and pics of their product with the bullets falling out. Tell them what you are going to do to insure the safety of your fellow shooters from their dangerous products. |
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I just shelved all my remaing MCC SS109.... I'll NEVER buy from Maine Cartridge Company again.... yet another unfortunate shitstain on the EE as far as I'm concerned. Good luck with your case. SGB...I think such payouts would be fine on the rare occasion, but such public statements often breed more...right wrong or indifferent. Typically it's bad business to roll over for every complaint...then again, it's bad business to manufacture junk ammo. |
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Sorry but as I see it without the receipt/packaging you are screwed. Frankly if I owned a company and made a product that many others also made with no company independent markings I would require POP from my company before I'd even consider rectifying the problem. Why should a company go by peoples word, someones word is just about worthless these days. If they were to just replace stuff on peoples word then they would be taken advantage of until they go out of business. |
+1 Kel-Tec has replaced several guns that blew from bad ammo and has gained a great deal od admirers for that action, even though they were not at fault for the kB!'s. Hell,I am going to buy another one or two this year because of that....and MCC is never going to see a dime from me. I mean, come on, even Extreme Shock has repaired guns that have blown up. THey do not rank high on my list of ammo makers because of their misleading marketing practices, but they will at least stand behind their products. |
I assume that MCC does not headstamp their brass and simply reload other manufacturers, correct? If true, then there is certainly no way to prove it was theirs in the first place. Operative word here is PROVE. In civil cases, the requirement is "beyond reasonable doubt", which is much less strict than in criminal cases where it is " beyond a shadow of a doubt", but I still don't believe that you could reasonably convince someone that the cartridge that blew was, beyond doubt, MCC's. In other words, without a headstamp, it's possible that the offending cartridge could have been loaded by the original company or even reloaded by someone else - including yourself. I'm not claiming that is the case, but that is what you will have to prove and I don't think you can do that under the circumstances. Given the concept of legal findings and precedents, I believe it would be in the best interest of MCC to fight this case rather than giving you an official or even a "goodwill" settlement. That type of thing would undoubtedly backfire if something happens with their product that causes someone harm. I blame the society we live in now - certainly not you in this case, and maybe not even MCC where it appears that civil liability issues have forced their hand. good luck... |
He would still normally need to pay an expert to testify in court, a letter from bushmaster isn't going to cut it. The cost of the case v. the small damages is where he is out of luck. If he walked into my office with half his face blown off MCC would need more than "Hey wasn't our round" to keep me from landing on them like a fat kid on a donut. 
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I seem to remember in the runup to Y2K, 223 ammo was a favorite prep. MCC came up in discussion on several survival sites, and it never got good reviews. Poor QC was the usual complaint. MCC was supposed to have been trying to reinvent themselves several years ago, I see that hasn't happened. Have you tried going through your credit card company to get purchase proof? It may take some digging, but the original info is probably still available. |
Isnt the level of proof for civil cases "by clear and convincing evidence" as opposed to criminal which is "beyond reasonable doubt?" If you have the cartridge, loaded with the same powder/primer arent there some type of tests that they can do? How did the Bushmaster guy determine it was MCC? Best of luck to you in this crappy situation 
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Really? I've seen lots of cases where a vets report or doctors report was read and used as evidence without the need for a sworn expert to testify to back up the report. Perhaps there is a legal difference in how those are taken at face value? I'm asking because I have only a passing knowledge of the legal system. I think you are right though, if it will require tesimony from a paid expert then there is no way to win financially. Without some proof that those are indeed the defendant's product it's even tougher. Establishing that would require lots of work. |
If he used a special run of powder, chemical analysis could match it if you could find a round that was known to be an MCC round and from the same lot or run. Since you don't know the lot how would you even start. Then.... what if he uses off-the shelf powders that any other reloader would have access to? I think you COULD get to the level of proof for a small civil case but like Aimless said, you can't get there for less than the cost of the rifle. I think you are right about the level of proof. It's not "beyond reasonable doubt".... that's criminal. |
| I've bought thousands of rds. from MCC never had a problem. I live in ME, I see MCC at gun shows, not so much lately. I dug out 1 of the boxes MCC ammo comes in 223 REM 55gr. FMJ This statement is on the bottom of the box- WARNING: This ammunition is produced for firearms in good condition, originally chambered for this cartridge. We have used reasonable care in the manufacture of this ammunition, but make no other warranty, expressed or implied. If you are not experienced in the loading and firing of the firearm for which this ammunition is intended, obtain qualified advice or instruction before firing this ammunition. I'm not defending MCC just stateing what's printed on their ammo box. I've shot their ammo in my transferrable M16 but now I don't know if I dare to. I've got 5000-8000 rds. of their ammo, anybody want to buy it? J Smith good luck with your case, glad you did not get hurt. |
Two other people witnessed the mishap - however, I don't have a panel of "experts" to testify,etc. so I may still be SOL. The fact remains that two other people witnessed Maine Cartridge Company ammo blow up my gun. I may not have the burden of proof I need legally but that doesn't make the lies and bull fed to me from MCC any "truer". At this point, my only goal is that others NOT get hurt by these people. |
you go! |
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How about some phone calls to MCC stating that because of their lack of social skills and good business practices, that we(me, you, us) will no longer purchase their ammo, and will not suggest the use of their ammo in the future? Let them know that paying the few hundred dollars that their product damaged in the short, sure beats the hell out of the thousands they will lose. I'll call tomorrow morning. |
Thanks much. I think I'm going to push for a boycott of their products in light of this. There is no downside to avoiding them. Here's more info on that boycott. forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=16771251&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=101787747&Mytoken=5A40365C-F471-4958-A5CB0C108926CBD6613586125 |
in this case, it would seem that the first issue is to provide evidence that the cartridge which actually caused the KB, actually was made by MCC. until that's done, MCC really doesn't have to do anything. so think about the chain of evidence and how that relates to PROOF. two guys observed someone's gun KB while he was shooting with them. He states that he was using a certain product, in this case, MCC. where is the evidence? he shows them a box with MCC written on it? is it not possible that even with a box of cartridges labeled MCC, that he did not mistakenly (or intentionally) load another company's single cartridge? mistakes happen all the time. he is not just going to have to show that he had MCC cartridges with him at the time, he is going to have to PROVE that the cartridge that KB'd his gun was MCC. with a reloaded cartridge bearing another headstamp this seems to me to be almost impossible to prove. unless his friends witnessed him receive the shipment and then immediately open the sealed case and load and fire the weapon, they can't prove that it was the MCC cartridge which caused the KB. and unless they could positively visually confirm that no other product except the one removed from this package entered his chamber immediately before it KB'd, and that there were no other cartridges in his firearm previous to loading with MCC, then it really looks like his friends testimony would be worthless. they could testify that the gun blew up in their presence, nothing more. Remember, while this may be an extreme example, in OJ's case, there was no doubt about the origin of the evidence, but simply because of the "chain of evidence", the way it was handled it was cast into doubt. like everyone else here, I wish you good luck and hope this gets resolved to your satifaction. |
Your over thinking it. Most judges I have ever watched work do not allow for the tortured logic that claims that a person willfully destroyed thier weapon by subsituting a defective round into a box of MCC ammo and then sought damages from a party that did not manufacture the ammo. It doesn't make any sense. Absent proof that you did in fact buy the MCC ammo and use it though.... well, that's just a tough nut to crack. |
| Once again, all of MCC brass is previously used brass from Lake City or Winchester Cartridge Company that I saw. Other companies like Black Hills have their own brass - and even use fairly NEW brass - MCC does not. So anyone firing MCC can easily be told "Wasn't our ammo!" by the company. Even receipts and boxes with Lot# might not be enough to keep them from denying their own product. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My AR15 KaBoomed - from Maine Cartridge Co. SS109 (Updated Page 14 More Lying/More Stupidity) (Page 6 of 7)
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