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Posted: 1/19/2014 7:21:38 PM EST

[#1]

Shortly after moving into a new house, our AC quit working. I had the repairman out. It broke again two weeks later.

I burned that house to the ground. Better safe than sorry.

You my friend - wear the 13er sticker with pride. You earned it

Posted: 1/19/2014 7:31:11 PM EST

[#2]

Quote History

Quoted:

So I went to the range yesterday and after firing two shoots without any problems this happened:

[email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/111339783@N02/12034746276/]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3704/12034746276_fd348916e1_b.jpg[/email]

[email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/111339783@N02/12034193623/]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/12034193623_513b7774a2_b.jpg[/email]

The round that came out...

[email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/111339783@N02/12035065356/]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3743/12035065356_bb06c07392_b.jpg[/email]

...looked like the others.

[email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/111339783@N02/12034397223/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7310/12034397223_ff6bc49e3d_b.jpg[/email]

[email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/111339783@N02/12034500284/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7453/12034500284_a6f59c6062_b.jpg[/email]

I don't know what else to do short of contacting Daniel Defense, any help or suggestions would be sincerely appreciated.

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The bolt is moving the top round from the mag by friction on the side of the cartridge, not pushing it from the rear.

Your bolt is either outrunning the magazine spring, or not moving far enough back into the receiver extension.

This means that the bolt is either too fast or too slow.

Put one round in a mag, load, and fire.

If the bolt locks back, then your problem is that the bolt is moving too fast.

Try a heavier buffer (H2, H3).

If the bolt does not lock back, switch to 5.56 ammo (if you are shooting .223). If hotter ammo doesn't solve the problem, look into having your gas port measured and possibly reamed out slightly larger. Also make sure your gas key is fastened tightly, and that your gas tube is properly aligned.

I'll bet a heavier buffer helps though.

Posted: 1/19/2014 7:33:05 PM EST

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
This I can do.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/audoc/boltface_zps543a7cbd.jpg

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Everything looks normal, if you run your fingers across the bolt face is it smooth?
Or does the extractor or ejector stick out past the face of the lugs?

Too bad you were not closer, I would have loved to have met you at a range and tried to repair that rifle for you.

Posted: 1/19/2014 7:41:49 PM EST

[#4]

I cant believe OP destroyed his gun....... stupidest thing I have seen besides the guy cutting his lower up on the bandsaw. I cant believe I wasted my time reading this thread. Any number of his here could have fixed that gun and would have paid you good money for it.

Posted: 1/19/2014 7:49:52 PM EST

[#5]

Insert face palm pictures here.

Posted: 1/19/2014 8:18:56 PM EST

[#6]

Everything looks normal, if you run your fingers across the bolt face is it smooth?
Or does the extractor or ejector stick out past the face of the lugs?

Too bad you were not closer, I would have loved to have met you at a range and tried to repair that rifle for you.

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Yeah, Id say it is smooth.

Wished you were closer too, I would have been happy to have you fix it. You could have been able to do what S&W and others near me couldn't do.

BTW, eaz.... I don't see a house with no AC blowing off its owners face/fingers or that of the owners 9yo.

Posted: 1/19/2014 8:23:54 PM EST

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
If I would have known it was their policy to not to give any feedback or suggestions after a firearm was returned from repair or at least something saying they even received it, let alone not repair it the first time I would never have purchased their product in the first place. Full of fail perhaps but as I said, mistakes and regret exist.

Edit: I had no way of knowing they would have replaced it with a new one. I had no way of knowing until the post on here from support they would even do anything more than they had allegedly done at that point. My e-mail attempts went unanswered. It was already too late by the time I saw that post from the nice guy at S&W. Actually until I discovered this site I was lead to believe from others opinions S&W had jumped the shark a while back and this would be an endless journey and Id still be left with a rifle I couldn't trust and possibly dangerous. This forum changed that for me but it was already too late.

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You posted once on the S&W forum and never came back. We could have told you over there that S&W responds to phone calls much better than email. How could you not know they would replace it? Were you unaware that the rifle you purchased had a lifetime warranty? So, if you take your car into the shop and the mechanic doesn't get it fixed the first time, do you just drive it off a cliff?

Posted: 1/19/2014 8:24:50 PM EST

[#8]

OP, do you recall seeing visible, textured CNC marks on the inside of the barrel extension?

Posted: 1/19/2014 8:32:22 PM EST

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
You could have been able to do what S&W and others near me couldn't do.

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Couldn't do? You destroyed the rifle and didn't give S&W a chance. A company doesn't always fix things on the first go. A S&W employee came out here and offered to get it taken care of and instead of even contacting S&W again, you destroy the rifle? Hell, you even destroy the lower?

I've used S&W's customer service in the past and been nothing but very satisfied.

Posted: 1/19/2014 8:44:10 PM EST

[#10]

You posted once on the S&W forum and never came back. We could have told you over there that S&W responds to phone calls much better than email. How could you not know they would replace it? Were you unaware that the rifle you purchased had a lifetime warranty? So, if you take your car into the shop and the mechanic doesn't get it fixed the first time, do you just drive it off a cliff?

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Perhaps I should have gone back.

Judging by the lack of interactive customer support to that point I couldn't have assumed they would replace it. The opinions I was getting on my end from others wouldn't have lead me to that conclusion.

Yes I was unaware of the lifetime warranty, the first paragraph states it is only one year. Guess i should have read all the way to the bottom. With my luck the problem wouldn't have been covered by it anyway and would have been deemed "Normal wear and tear." I know now though.

Again, I don't see a car or home AC being the same as a firearm.

Posted: 1/19/2014 8:46:16 PM EST

[#11]

We need pics of the destruction so you can cement yourself in ARFCOM infamy.

Posted: 1/19/2014 9:00:30 PM EST

[#12]

Couldn't do? You destroyed the rifle and didn't give S&W a chance. A company doesn't always fix things on the first go. A S&W employee came out here and offered to get it taken care of and instead of even contacting S&W again, you destroy the rifle? Hell, you even destroy the lower?

I've used S&W's customer service in the past and been nothing but very satisfied.

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I did give it a chance. Didn't work. Even tried what was suggested here and from others on my end that build ARs. At no point was there any dialog from S&W concerning the specific rifle though I attempted it, and as I said I really have no idea other than the rifle being dirty and the stores assurance it was returned anything at all was done. With that in mind I had no confidence in a second try, or a third, or a fourth. Ya know, if it was something other than this weird of a malfunction I might have felt differently but this sort of malfunction isn't something to experiment further with.

Was nice to see a post by S&W though it was after the fact.

Posted: 1/19/2014 9:10:24 PM EST

[#13]

We need pics of the destruction so you can cement yourself in ARFCOM infamy.

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Id rather post a pic of a functional build that restores my confidence in the platform.

Posted: 1/19/2014 9:14:10 PM EST

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

Perhaps I should have gone back.

Judging by the lack of interactive customer support to that point I couldn't have assumed they would replace it. The opinions I was getting on my end from others wouldn't have lead me to that conclusion.

Yes I was unaware of the lifetime warranty, the first paragraph states it is only one year. Guess i should have read all the way to the bottom. With my luck the problem wouldn't have been covered by it anyway and would have been deemed "Normal wear and tear." I know now though.

Again, I don't see a car or home AC being the same as a firearm.

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Quote History

Quoted:

You posted once on the S&W forum and never came back. We could have told you over there that S&W responds to phone calls much better than email. How could you not know they would replace it? Were you unaware that the rifle you purchased had a lifetime warranty? So, if you take your car into the shop and the mechanic doesn't get it fixed the first time, do you just drive it off a cliff?

Perhaps I should have gone back.

Judging by the lack of interactive customer support to that point I couldn't have assumed they would replace it. The opinions I was getting on my end from others wouldn't have lead me to that conclusion.

Yes I was unaware of the lifetime warranty, the first paragraph states it is only one year. Guess i should have read all the way to the bottom. With my luck the problem wouldn't have been covered by it anyway and would have been deemed "Normal wear and tear." I know now though.

Again, I don't see a car or home AC being the same as a firearm.

Again, ever heard of a phone? You had a warranty, even if you believed it to be 1 year... Did the others who were offering disparaging opinions own S&Ws? Next time you have a firearm to dispose of like this, please PM me. I'll assume the risk and pay shipping. Seriously, next time call if your email is not answered. And this goes for any manufacturer.

Posted: 1/19/2014 9:28:50 PM EST

[#15]

Again, ever heard of a phone? You had a warranty, even if you believed it to be 1 year... Did the others who were offering disparaging opinions own S&Ws? Next time you have a firearm to dispose of like this, please PM me. I'll assume the risk and pay shipping. Seriously, next time call if your email is not answered. And this goes for any manufacturer.

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Will call

Yeah, we all owned S&Ws though I believe I am the only one that still does.

E-mails were answered but were the same exact nondescript form letter all 3 times. I still have them. I haven't received that sort of thing from any manufacturer before. I guess Ill have to get used to it.

Posted: 1/20/2014 12:34:16 AM EST

[#16]

Probably best to let the S&W part of this thread die... too unbelievable IMO.
TrailofDead is having a similar problem with his DD. I seriously doubt he'd do what AuDoc chose to do and I for one would really like to know the problem and the fix.
ToD can you give an update?

Posted: 1/20/2014 2:47:29 AM EST

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
Shortly after moving into a new house, our AC quit working. I had the repairman out. It broke again two weeks later.

I burned that house to the ground. Better safe than sorry.

You my friend - wear the 13er sticker with pride. You earned it

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:
Shortly after moving into a new house, our AC quit working. I had the repairman out. It broke again two weeks later.

I burned that house to the ground. Better safe than sorry.

You my friend - wear the 13er sticker with pride. You earned it

Hope the OP is a good looking dude, or I'd bet he is walking around without a nose.

Quoted:
We need pics of the destruction so you can cement yourself in ARFCOM infamy.

Good call.

Wonder what happens when the OP gets a flat tire or the battery is dead.

Posted: 1/20/2014 3:50:58 AM EST

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

Id rather post a pic of a functional build that restores my confidence in the platform.

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Quote History

Quoted:

We need pics of the destruction so you can cement yourself in ARFCOM infamy.

Id rather post a pic of a functional build that restores my confidence in the platform.

Alright then:

100% Functional so far. :)

It needs an improved trigger but otherwise I love it.

Posted: 1/20/2014 5:06:05 AM EST

[#19]

OP is

Sounds like the mag wasn't sitting up high enough. I bet it is something as simple as the mag catch not being screwed in far enough. To totally destroy the gun because you don't have the patience to work it out or let someone who knows these guns to look at it for you is retarded.

Posted: 1/20/2014 5:15:21 AM EST

[#20]

I checked back to see how this was repaired.

Can we move this post to GD now so it receives the tender loving it so richly deserves?

Posted: 1/20/2014 9:30:31 AM EST

[#21]

Quoted:
Probably best to let the S&W part of this thread die... too unbelievable IMO.
TrailofDead is having a similar problem with his DD. I seriously doubt he'd do what AuDoc chose to do and I for one would really like to know the problem and the fix.
ToD can you give an update?

View Quote

After very little thought, I decided to just go ahead and melt the rifle down into aluminum and steel ingots which I then scattered throughout the state. No pics, please don't ask about it anymore, thanks!

Anyway, before this thread devolves anymore than it has, here's the latest:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/12054780975_19b6206f77_c.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/12054773495_9d34f0ed19_c.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5528/12055628966_0c489079aa_b.jpg
I'm certainly not an expert but I can't see anything abnormal about the way that the mag seats, or with the mag catch or the amount of play in a seated magazine. I tried tightening the mag catch by one turn when I went shooting this past weekend and it still malfunctioned. When I got home I turned it back a turn to how tight it was originally, removed the firing pin and tried cycling the bolt by pulling back and letting go of the charging handle while pushing and pulling the magazine from every angle but I couldn't replicate the malfunction. Interestingly, I noticed that the rounds that came out all had a similar pattern of scratches on them (below) which do not appear on the rounds that come out bent. I wonder if whatever is scratching the copper on the rounds in the picture is what the ammo that comes out bent is catching on...
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/12054770145_0624662f37_c.jpg

Posted: 1/20/2014 7:15:58 PM EST

[#22]

Never in the history of AC has a unit caused a house fire and killed someone.

Impossible.

Quote History

Quoted:

Yeah, Id say it is smooth.

Wished you were closer too, I would have been happy to have you fix it. You could have been able to do what S&W and others near me couldn't do.

BTW, eaz.... I don't see a house with no AC blowing off its owners face/fingers or that of the owners 9yo.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Everything looks normal, if you run your fingers across the bolt face is it smooth?
Or does the extractor or ejector stick out past the face of the lugs?http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=3&f=118&t=626235&r=6320027&page=7#

Too bad you were not closer, I would have loved to have met you at a range and tried to repair that rifle for you.

Yeah, Id say it is smooth.

Wished you were closer too, I would have been happy to have you fix it. You could have been able to do what S&W and others near me couldn't do.

BTW, eaz.... I don't see a house with no AC blowing off its owners face/fingers or that of the owners 9yo.

Posted: 1/21/2014 8:11:07 AM EST

[#23]

Does this look OK?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/12072546476_6a57930fc0_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7389/12072315134_106b3b6a82_c.jpg

Posted: 1/21/2014 8:46:10 AM EST

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:

After very little thought, I decided to just go ahead and melt the rifle down into aluminum and steel ingots which I then scattered throughout the state. No pics, please don't ask about it anymore, thanks!

Anyway, before this thread devolves anymore than it has, here's the latest:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/12054780975_19b6206f77_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/12054773495_9d34f0ed19_c.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5528/12055628966_0c489079aa_b.jpg

I'm certainly not an expert but I can't see anything abnormal about the way that the mag seats, or with the mag catch or the amount of play in a seated magazine. I tried tightening the mag catch by one turn when I went shooting this past weekend and it still malfunctioned. When I got home I turned it back a turn to how tight it was originally, removed the firing pin and tried cycling the bolt by pulling back and letting go of the charging handle while pushing and pulling the magazine from every angle but I couldn't replicate the malfunction. Interestingly, I noticed that the rounds that came out all had a similar pattern of scratches on them (below) which do not appear on the rounds that come out bent. I wonder if whatever is scratching the copper on the rounds in the picture is what the ammo that comes out bent is catching on...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/12054770145_0624662f37_c.jpg

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Probably best to let the S&W part of this thread die... too unbelievable IMO.

TrailofDead is having a similar problem with his DD. I seriously doubt he'd do what AuDoc chose to do and I for one would really like to know the problem and the fix.

ToD can you give an update?

After very little thought, I decided to just go ahead and melt the rifle down into aluminum and steel ingots which I then scattered throughout the state. No pics, please don't ask about it anymore, thanks!

Anyway, before this thread devolves anymore than it has, here's the latest:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/12054780975_19b6206f77_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/12054773495_9d34f0ed19_c.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5528/12055628966_0c489079aa_b.jpg

I'm certainly not an expert but I can't see anything abnormal about the way that the mag seats, or with the mag catch or the amount of play in a seated magazine. I tried tightening the mag catch by one turn when I went shooting this past weekend and it still malfunctioned. When I got home I turned it back a turn to how tight it was originally, removed the firing pin and tried cycling the bolt by pulling back and letting go of the charging handle while pushing and pulling the magazine from every angle but I couldn't replicate the malfunction. Interestingly, I noticed that the rounds that came out all had a similar pattern of scratches on them (below) which do not appear on the rounds that come out bent. I wonder if whatever is scratching the copper on the rounds in the picture is what the ammo that comes out bent is catching on...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/12054770145_0624662f37_c.jpg

The scratches on the jackets of the bullets are from the feed ramps and completely normal.

Posted: 1/21/2014 10:31:51 AM EST

[#25]

Quoted:
The bolt is moving the top round from the mag by friction on the side of the cartridge, not pushing it from the rear.

Your bolt is either outrunning the magazine spring, or not moving far enough back into the receiver extension.

This means that the bolt is either too fast or too slow.

Put one round in a mag, load, and fire.

If the bolt locks back, then your problem is that the bolt is moving too fast.

Try a heavier buffer (H2, H3).

If the bolt does not lock back, switch to 5.56 ammo (if you are shooting .223). If hotter ammo doesn't solve the problem, look into having your gas port measured and possibly reamed out slightly larger. Also make sure your gas key is fastened tightly, and that your gas tube is properly aligned.

I'll bet a heavier buffer helps though.

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I'm not convinced that it's short stroking because for one thing it happens most often with 5.56 (Federal XM193 and Winchester Q3131) and I've had it happen while chambering the first round off of a reload when I've correctly seated a fresh magazine and hit the bolt catch. I haven't tried an H2 or or an H3 buffer but it has happened with both the H buffer and JP SCS that I've used. I've also checked the gas key and it's properly staked and the screws are tight. The gas tube alignment looks good and I don't see any unusual wear. I truly do not understand what the hell is going on.

Posted: 1/21/2014 10:41:31 AM EST

[#26]

Well this thread went in a completely different direction than i was expecting

...if i'd known you were going to cut it up i'd have taken the thing off of your hands. Anyway glad you solved the problem in your way....i guess.

ibtm

Posted: 1/21/2014 10:53:51 AM EST

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
This type of malfunction is typically caused by a failure to either extract or eject the previous round.

The bolt strips the top round from the magazine, but since the previous round is still either in the chamber or just lying in the upper receiver on top of the magazine, the new round is forced either up or down. Either way, it won't chamber and often gets bent exactly like the pictures show.

Occasionally, a bad magazine that has spread lips will allow a round out of the mag as the BCG is travelling back in the ejection phase. When the BCG returns, it will strip a new round, but will also push the loose round forward. There's only room for one round in the chamber. The other gets bent. You said you've tried several new magazines though.

Being a brand new rifle, I'd take it back. That being said... before you do, check your extractor and make sure it has good spring tension and that there are no burs or foreign material in the groove to keep it from doing it's job.

Check your ejector, making sure it has good tension but moves freely in and out. Easiest way to do this is to take a spent casing, hook it into the extractor groove, and tilt/rotate it repeatedly into the bolt face. This will depress the ejector and also make sure that the extractor is holding the casing securely.

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This is the most plausible explanation I've read.

I'm reminded of shooting the ARs I've built up from M-16 "parts kits" purchased from the Sportsman's Guide.
The extractor springs in these did not have the rubber insert or the o-ring and some ammo (the most powerful or "hottest") had enough extra power to allow the extractor to slip off the case rim, with the occasional double feed.

Check the extractor spring and if necessary augment it with the insert and O-ring.

If you have another BCG, it might be faster to just try the S&W with it.

Joe

*edit* posted before I read to the end of the thread, sorry.

Posted: 1/21/2014 1:39:31 PM EST

[#28]

This is the second stupidest thread I've seen on ARFcom..., EVAR! I've made a mental note of the username, and will never try to help in any way in any future threads with said username...

Posted: 1/21/2014 3:12:28 PM EST

[#29]

TOD, check the upper with a new lower to eliminate magazine height issues.

If the malfunction occurs using the bolt release, it is not a gas issue.

Something is causing the bolt to slow to a stop before locking in to the barrel extension.

Posted: 1/21/2014 4:14:35 PM EST

[#30]

Destroyed rifle story is BS unless OP posts pics in my opinion.

TOD, hope you get yours figured out.

Posted: 1/22/2014 1:13:16 AM EST

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Does this look OK?
<a href="http://flic.kr/p/joNXt3" target="_blank">http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/12072546476_6a57930fc0_z.jpg</a>
<a href="http://flic.kr/p/joMLGo" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7389/12072315134_106b3b6a82_c.jpg</a>

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I just compared to mine and I can't see any difference. I regret sounding like a broken record but I must say it, send it back. Hopefully DD is not like S&W and you will be informed of the problem and the fix. Good luck.

ETA: Were you able to try a different bcg?

Posted: 1/22/2014 6:33:29 AM EST

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Does this look OK?
<a href="http://flic.kr/p/joNXt3" target="_blank">http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/12072546476_6a57930fc0_z.jpg</a>
<a href="http://flic.kr/p/joMLGo" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7389/12072315134_106b3b6a82_c.jpg</a>

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I just compared to mine and I can't see any difference. I regret sounding like a broken record but I must say it, send it back. Hopefully DD is not like S&W and you will be informed of the problem and the fix. Good luck.

ETA: Were you able to try a different bcg?

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I think you're right, I'm completely stumped so I really don't know what else to do besides get in touch with DD. I'll send them an email today and will post updates in this thread as this develops. I haven't been able to try a different BCG or swap the URG/LRG with different one since it's my only AR (so far, haha) and I haven't been able to find anyone that I felt comfortable with asking to use their URG/LRG to shoot 50-100 rounds for diagnostic purposes since the malfunction is only occurring ~2% of the time. At any rate I appreciate everyone's help. I'll keep y'all posted.

Posted: 1/22/2014 8:24:37 AM EST

[#33]

One thing stands out to me. Although both rifles in this thread have this issue with different magazines, the type of magazine is the same, Pmags. Maybe a run of Pmags has an issue that only shows up in a few rifles with a certain bolt carrier velocity. The magazines could be releasing the cartridge at a weird angle. The nose of the cartridges may have been dragging on the front wall of the magazine. A GI magazine, a different run of Pmag, or a different type of synthetic magazine, such as a Lancer, may not have had this issue. S&W did not have access to the OP's magazines and ammunition. It may have run perfectly with the ammunition and magazines S&W uses for testing.

Posted: 1/22/2014 8:43:28 AM EST

[#34]

What in the actual fuck happened here. Why the hell would you not make S&W replace it for you? That's some expensive paperweights you have now

I want pics of the destruction so this thread can live on like the dude who cut up his Spike's lower.

Posted: 1/22/2014 11:44:00 AM EST

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
What in the actual fuck happened here. Why the hell would you not make S&W replace it for you? That's some expensive paperweights you have now

I want pics of the destruction so this thread can live on like the dude who cut up his Spike's lower.

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Pics would be nice. How about it AuDoc, can you do that?