Yup, when I have an optic already, vs spending $1500+ on one, obscure works just fine for me. Plus I won’t ever complain about more mag!

Agreed.  I'm two doubles deep into some 124-proof Medley (bourbon) and i'm starting to think it's time to paint *SOMETHING*.


Nobody does that shit sober. WTF......

Delta Recce

That thing's so ugly it's beautiful. Love it.

This is something I would hang on my wall above my fireplace.

For those of us considering jumping into the real, absolute clone game, can someone provide a history note regarding the 15.1 barrel in the wild versus the 16, and also the importance of the Recce profile (heavy under the handguard) vs government profile barrel.

I seem to have a big gap in my understanding of what makes a true clone NWS SEAL or Delta clone.  Forgive my ignorance.  I’ve read the first page of this thread and most of its 68 pages.  Perhaps I’m missing something about the use in the wild of 15.1s and about authentic Recce barrels that still have govt profile.

The recce isn't just one type. That's what makes it unique. The 15.1" is a chopped recon barrel. I would love to know why that was chosen, honestly it was probably because it looked cool and was as short as you could go with a FF RAS and a 12th model.

Between the 17" lilja, The m4a1 barrel, and the 15.1" the recce rifle is a chameleon of the clone game.

Build whatever you want with the list of parts and it'll fit the bill. There really are 4 main types though. 15.1" NSW Recce, Delta Recce, OG Seal Recce, and 416 Recce. They all had a mish mash of parts except the Delta. That was pretty constant. M4A1, MRE, and Short Dot.

Also, if anyone has a lead on a non rapey price on an x24. Lemme know. I'm coming home...haha

Finally found a NSW with ATACR. It's not issued but man it looks good.



Pulled from IG.

Damnit man. That looks good.

Mmm that warms my heart.

Don't think this one was ever posted. Arms rings but still looks good.

You already have everything cerakoted from the mini h, you just need a rail, 15.1 barrel, and an atacr.

Wheels are already in motion...

Unless an ATACR pops up for sub 2k she's getting an X24 with a JPoint in the 30mm Mount so I can slide the optic as far forward as possible. Kind of like the helicopter NSW. But clamped outside the rings. After spending 2 years behind the NSW I know what I didn't like about it and CH manipulation along with eye relief were the top two.

I'd really like to know what ring mount is used is used on this rifle. It's def not a Wilcox, dot sits way too high up. Unless it has some sort of riser on it. But it seeks to have some cantilever to it as well.



Rail will be cerakoted to match but it'll prolly get a little bit of rattle of a deep brown to break it up.

16" barrel is On the way and I'll probably try out D. Wilson for the chop. Unless, an already cut one pops up. If anyone is thinking of selling any NSW parts email me.

I still think a ATACR would be perfect especially for the eye relief complaints. Going to look sick.

X2

I was hoping to get some historical data about use of the 15.1 in the wild, when and by whom.  Does anyone know the details?  What is the difference between an NSW Recce and an OG Seal Recce beyond perhaps barrel length?  Sorry for my ignorance, but some historical context would be helpful.

And, what is the factual basis for the Lilja Recce barrel being 17”?  I thought it was a 16”.  I find it a bit difficult to come by this information.  If beyond the intent of this thread, could someone point me to where these variants of Recce can be found for those wanting to make true clones of weapons actually seeing duty in the wild.  If I embark on this journey in earnest, I want to do it right.

@lancecriminal86 seems to be the all knowing clone guy, I'm sure he can help a lot more than any of us.

The big difference between a NSW Recce and Seal Recce would be the Lilja barrel and 249 FH vs the Douglas 16"/15.1" with ops. X32 and X24 were used on the Seal Recce as well as the Leupold. Seal Recce predates the MK12 Mod 1 for Seal use where as the 16"/15.1" came after the Mod 1 was used, to my knowledge.

As far as the 17" goes. Lilja measures their Recce barrel that was used at 17" including barrel extension. So measuring it on a closed bolt is roughly 16.6".

@lancecriminal86 do you have any info on the KAC/Armalite fiberglass tubes?

Which ATACR are we referring to?

Asking for a friend.

There really isn't a lot of info on the "Recce" rifles. The best "reference" I know of, that I usually base off of, comes from the 5.56 Timeline by Daniel Watters.

When he first published it, he was able to pull a lot of info off of websites or record requests, things like requests for proposals, purchase orders, contract awards, etc. For the Recce, the things I found that seem to align with the program mainly came out of NSWDG in his listings, and later on from Crane. I'll try to indicate them here but you can see there's not a lot to go on:

The first listing is in August of 1999:

"NSWDG issues a solicitation for 25 MWS Rail Sling Mount Adapter Assemblies with Standard OD Swivel, 50 MWS Rail Sling Mount Adapter Assemblies with Push-Button Swivel, 25 PAQ-4 IR Aiming Light Mounts, 30 M4 (FF) RAS Handguard Nuts, 60 M4 (FF) RAS Barrel Nut Pins, 30 M4 (FF) RAS Barrel Nut Assemblies, 30 M4 (FF) RAS Gas Block Assemblies, and 30 M4 (FF) Medium-long Carbine RAS, and M4 (FF) Long RAS."

To me this would be the likely genesis of the "Recce" of the GWOT that this thread is based around. We can see the general rails and accessories that we know were used on some of the Recce rifles, mainly the ones with M4A1 barrels and FF rails. There very likely could have been other uses for them, but it's been often repeated that the Recce was going on concurrently with the SPR, and the SPR started in 1997. This squarely puts it in SPR development timeline, by which time the NSW guys would have seen the SPR progress and may have chosen to go back to internal development. I know for sure there were west coast SEALs at the October 2000 SPR testing at Thunder Ranch, as I spoke to Clint about it at length one night. He remembers them not being satisfied with it, and everyone complained about the performance with M855 ball ammo.

After that, the next big entry isn't until August 2002:

"NSWDG issues a solicitation for a variety of weapon parts including 24 Mk 46 barrels, 10 stainless 16″ barrels for the M4A1 Recon Rifle upper receiver, 14 Long Rifle RAS Assemblies, and 14 Match 2-Stage Triggers."

This could be where the Lilja barreled ones came in, possibly the ones with BE Meyers flash hiders.

This was also from the same time:
"The M4A1 SOPMOD OCONUS Performance User Review and Special Purpose Rifle (SPR) Capabilities Upgrade Conference is held. The majority of users prefer the Mk 12 Mod 0 over the Mk 12 Mod 1 in part due to ergonomic reasons. In contrast, the SPR builders uniformly prefer the Mk 12 Mod 1 due to ease of construction. However, there are some disgruntled users, particularly in the SEAL community, who really wanted a lighter 16″ barreled Recon/”Recce” carbine instead of a heavy, militarized match rifle."

May 2003:
"NSWC-Crane issues a sole-source solicitation to KAC for 70 apiece of the following items: M4 Flash Hiders, M4 Free Floating rail, M4-Two Stage Trigger, M4 Bipod Adapter, M4 Gas Block Adapter, AN/PAQ-4 Aiming Mount, Push-button swivels, and Free Floating RAS."

Maybe not Recce, could be for Mk 12 Mod 1 but a good chance these were for Recce rifles. Notice no mention of barrels, but let's assume 100% of what Crane and DG didn't make it in here.

April 2004, not a big purchase but quite likely stuff used for guys like Renner's Recce and others we've seen with various J-Point or Docters on them:

"NSWDG issues a solicitation for 120 J-Point mounting kits for the ACOG, and standard 1″ and 30mm scopes. Each kit must contain a J-Point MRD and several mounts for attachment of the J-Point to the various host optics."


After that, it basically drops out. Eventually around 2006 or so we know the 416 starts showing up with SFOD and DG, so many Recce rifles may have dropped out on the DG side for those. On the NSW side, it seems they slowly just started adopting the Mk12 Mod 1 and using it.


From what the various narratives have said over the years, it wasn't one solid program. NSW, SFOD-D, and SF groups back to the 90s had been "accurzing" carbines and using them in various forms to include ones with Armalite fiberglass handguards (some of which came off of AR-10s with special barrel nuts or were modified to fit 5.56 uppers), Bushmaster VMatch tubes, etc. The "Recce" wasn't new in the GWOT, it was just a bit more structured than before from what it seems where rather than them all being one offs at the team level, some larger entities had more of them made. I don't think many were actually made by NSWDG, nor Crane themselves, but we know guys like Wes at MSTN were providing uppers as ordered by guys around that time. Remember one of the stories was that it started at DG, either DG or other teams wanted it to be official, it went up to Crane, and Crane eventually said "Here's the Mk12/SPR" and they turned back around and internally kept using or making their own Recce uppers.

I'm not sure we'll ever know about the 15.1" guns, unless the guys actually working at Crane, DG, or the team level ever come out and validate it. Since they were Navy if we haven't seen a book deal or hair gel from them called "Recce", we may never know.

One thought though, is does the Lilja barrel even have enough meat to support an Ops Inc 12th Model collar? Are we even sure those were 12th models and not M4 family cans?

Thank you.  Very helpful.  This is an excellent historical guide.  Much appreciated!  Because of the length of this thread, repetition of the history occasionally may be helpful to those of us just beginning this journey.

I was having difficulty (and still do) finding any historical basis for 15.1” original or cut down Recce barrels in the wild. It seems to be a product of the user boards to bring the Ops, Inc collar back enough to make the installed suppressor almost touching the rail while permitting it to still free float.  Absent proof of use in the wild, I’m not one to say it is proper or improper for clone use. I don’t know much.  I’d just like historical confirmation.

I do have the Lilja barrel.  It is 17” only if you include the barrel extension.  Actual length from the front of the receiver to the end of the muzzle threads on mine is about 16.5”.

I am a bit confused about the correct flash-hider or brake for the Lilja-equipped Recce.  Indeed, since the barrel ahead of the gas port is .725” all the way, there is no “meat” to profile away for a standard Ops Inc collar.  It would require a custom collar with a smaller internal bore and profiling that part of the barrel down to .700” I would think, or a sleeve over the barrel ahead of the gas journal to provide a shoulder for the collar.  Neither would be clone-correct, I guess.

In the wild, it seems that the Lilja-barreled Recce did not use a collar.  Rather, it seems that the common mount was the KAC M4QD for attachment of the QD-NT4 can.  Is that correct?  Or was it the B. E. Meyers, or both?   If I’m going this route, and spending money on the KAC NT4, I don’t want to make a mistake.

Is this correct for barrel and mount (excluding the improper place holder DD rail)?

Yes. Or the BE Myers 249F.

Thank you.  Now to source the correct KAC rail and save up for the NT4 (among other things).  

FWIW, I can say that the Lilja barrel is the most accurate semi-auto rifle barrel I’ve ever encountered.  Frankly, it is far more accurate than I am capable of shooting.  At bench with handloads, groups are not merely sub MOA, they are printing sub 1/2 MOA.  I can understand why NSWC Crane specified them at some point in time.  If you are pursuing uber accuracy, this thing is real.  That is with a good 3.5 lb. two stage trigger with a very light, crisp second stage.

I don’t mind building a clone-correct Recce that will be used, not just a safe queen.

The 15.1" exist BECAUSE there are ITW pics, not the other way around:

And I feel I should clarify that the point of my other post was simply to show that there isn't enough documentation to say when, who, or what about the different versions of the Recce seen in this thread. I can't say what barrels were used for the 15.1", I can't say who built them, nor can I validate what suppressor they used other than it looks like it could be a 12th Model (since we don't have pics without the can.

Another important point, the Nightforce 2.5-10x24 showed up in 2004 according to NF, so that should be useful to get an idea to date some of the Recce photos, for example with Renner's Recce using the older PR turret 3-9 or 3.5-10 and 1" tube (which also ties into the mention of the J-Point mounts I pulled from that 5.56 Timeline in 2003?)

And, again as mentioned once knowledge of the DEVGRU ones started getting around, individuals reached out to their various smiths and custom rifle builders to build their own, hence gentlemen like Wes from MSTN were building "Recce" type uppers using all kinds of stuff. I recall him mentioning he had built uppers with not only KAC handguards but LaRue and Daniel Defense rails, and in various barrel lengths. I'm not sure what he used before he started using Noveske barrels later on, but perhaps guys that have been around the boards since 2003/2004 might remember what he used. Or, might be worth giving him a call and getting the word straight from the horses's mouth.

I'd say its 99.99% a 12th model.

What if this is the same rifle on different deployments? Set up slightly different each time.  It that might be a long shot as there seems to be at least 2 of the same rifle in those NV photos.



Here are some of the other MOH pics. The one rifle if def an NSW recce while the other with x24 looks to be a 416

Pretty sweet to see recce's clearing rooms.

Stupid question: the NSW recce is the 16/17” Lila w/ BE Meyers FH right? And the SEAL recce is the Ops 12th 15.1” gun?

Opposite. Basing this off people like KD4 and others who have talked about the OG as the "Seal Recce".

Damn your MRE is nice

Thanks! It's growing on me for sure. I'm really tempted to snag a 16" BA ops cut barrel for this new Armalite tube. Sort of an old meets new motif with the Vari-X III. I really just need a reason to use these NF A203 rings.

Thank you.  That’s the sort of information I was seeking.

This is all on the first page. When I get to work on my laptop I'll update the original post with the three main flavors of Recce in this thread. Kind of like the MK12 thread with the different versions broke down.

Yes, opposite and the SEAL Lilja is also known to have used the KAC M4QD FH Mount for the KAC NT4 can.

That would be insanely helpful. I like the mutts, but more direction would be nice. Especially since nothing was ever written in stone.

15.1" Douglas ordered.

Compass Lake?

Yes. We will see if they cut it closer than my old Bartlein they did. Still have a custom collar from Ron just in case.

Nice. I just got a CLE Douglas for my H. Haven't shot it yet though.

What was the wait? Florence got in the way of my last one.

I got mine off the EE

Haha, I ordered a BA to be chopped by D. Wilson but his wait is very long and with the price of all the shipping and work it's the same price as a Douglas.

He's also moving to colorado so not taking any new work at the mo'.

Got my 15.1 from Compass Lake today

Exciting, let us know how long it takes!

I ordered mine June 25, received it today July 8.  I also sent in my own bolt to have the barrel head spaced to it.

Sweet so under 2 weeks!

YUGE thanks to @SDMF_Rebel for the x24 and A110's



Dropped the RAS off for cerakote today too. So glad to be back in on this rig.