Get ready for a 12-24 month wait when they make everyone over 18 in a trust start submitting fingerprints.  Even if they if they only make one person from a trust submit prints (which they won't) it will still back up the system even more then it already is.

You know, I actually wouldn't mind sending prints and photos if it meant they would hire more examiners and get the wait time down to a month or two...

Of course we're about as likely to have Obama step down voluntarily...

The LE notification, well, I could notify a different office each time or something...

I'm having trouble understanding this so pardon me.  If you never needed a CLEO sign off with a trust why is it being marketed that you don't need a CLEO sign off for a trust now?

They mean no CLEO signoff for individuals any more.

But everyone, individual or trust, would have to NOTIFY LE.

So how much longer will this take to be decided on and/or put into effect?

ideas anyone?

This summer, I thought I read.

I really hate to see this change.......should have left well enough alone.

So the question now is what to do about this.

There is one thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread with respect to the proposed changes on CLEO notification rather than approval.  As the Forms are tax documents, isn't a specific disclosure of this sort fundamentally against the law?

Sure as hell looks that way.

ok i didn't read through all 5 pages of this so....  is there truth to this or just rumors?

We need to find out when this is open for comments, and then get on the phones with our representatives.  I know Ted Cruz will be interested to hear that the ATF is unilaterally enacting a new program of fingerprinting and photographing gun owners.



 

I talked to the Rules division and I hear it will be 2014 before anything happens (if at all).  The Rule itself isn't even drafted yet, just a summary.  Then it has to go out for public comment.  After that a decision will be make and the rule implemented.  That all takes time.  

Not when you agree to it through the act of submitting the application.

Besides, this is a good thing that has unfortunately been de facto gun control for a large population of us that could not get the CLEO to sign. Photos and fingerprints have been the standard for decades, so it's hard to argue this as new.

This is not a good thing. Even those who couldn't obtain CLEO before were still able to submit on a trust.  Since the law passed trusts didn't require fingerprints. This is a further infringement.

ETA:  there is no valid reason to inform State officials regarding a federal tax payment.

If you're too lazy, ill-informed, or cheap to set up a trust, then I have little sympathy.

My CLEO wouldn't sign, so I spent the $190 for an officially drafted, tested, notarized NFA trust.

"No CLEO approval" is great, all the extra crap tacked on is the kicker.  This is a step in the wrong direction.

This can't be stated enough. And it irritates me to no end that people who were unwilling, for whatever reason, to set up a trust are going to screw it up for the rest of us.

You talk about those being ill-informed when you are actually ill-informed.

What has happened is felons have used the Trust Route to aquire NFA firearms.  The DOJ/BATFE has gone on recorded stating this.  So they were going to do something no matter what to prevent them from doing that again. So the NFATCA got word that something was going to be done, NFATCA didn't know exactly what the DOJ had in mind and all they asked for was the removal of the outdated CLEO requirement.

I will post what I said earlier in this thread, to better inform you about how they can legally do this:

I agree we need to see what comes from the comment period and that people are not making sound decisions yet on this.

I'm not a member of NFATCA only a forum member there so I can interact with them and you can go read the two threads posted earlier and make the decision yourself but here is my basic understanding of what has happened.  The BATFE/DOJ has discovered a Form 1 or Form 4 was approved for a Felon that used the Trust Route.  So the DOJ decided they were going to implement something to prevent this from happening in the future.  The NFATCA put in their two cents, how about looking at removing the CLEO sign off for individuals?  I don't believe the NFATCA advocated for what the DOJ/ATF is actually proposing to require for trust/LLC's etc.. and only were pushing/wanting the CLEO sign off to be removed.  The NFATCA was not involved with the writing of the abstract or anything to that nature.

Now for all those saying this is illegal or they can’t do this without congress etc…   Well congress gave permission back in 1934.

The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is derived from what is passed by congress and becomes part of the United States Code (USC).

The DOJ requirement for CLEO sign off is in the CFR which can be changed with out there becoming a new law or congressional involvement.

The two statements below from the USC is what gave the authority to the Secretary of the Treasury which is now the DOJ, to require the CLEO sign off, because there is nothing specifically written in the USC that says there must be a CLEO sign off for NFA firearms.  The same section of the law also allows the removal of the CLEO sign off which is in the CFR.  This same USC section that I bolded below also gives the DOJ the authority to require the identification of everyone in a Trust if they choose to do it.

From 26 USC § 5812 - Transfers
"(3) the transferee is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph;"

Also From 26 USC § 5822 - Making
"(d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and"

So not sure how many will actually read this and understand what I am saying, I’m not a lawyer, but this is just what I get from reading the actual regulations that cover NFA firearms, which most people have NO clue where the actual regulations or laws come from that allow them to have their fun toys.

So what? Felons have also acquired NFA items without any forms or approval at all. By your reasoning, all NFA should be banned to keep felons from acquiring it.

We really need to stop making laws and regulations that restrict the freedoms of the law abiding based on what criminals might do.

Yeah a felon can still manage to find/steal/borrow a shotgun, and as far as I know, hack saws aren't a controlled item...

They're already in big trouble no matter what kind of firearm they've got, they'd have to be a felon AND an idiot to set up an NFA trust expecting not to get caught.

i have a trust just so i can share my NFA stuff with my brother, then it costs me less money since i can get him to pay for stamps or what not hehehe.  

well....  lets just see where this goes

Is this for all NFA items excluding machine guns?  DD, AOW's, SBR's etc?

Key word "a" they have discovered A... not multiple, or many but, A as in singular, one person. If its more than one please cite a source or provide proof, is there a news story? I'm sure there would be a fire storm if the media caught wind that FELONS were running around with machine guns through a loop hole in the law! Where is the stats.....

It's already illegal for felons to be in possession of a firearm, regardless of who owns it.
It's already illegal to murder someone.

Laws have not stopped either one.

Yawn....

It's an inconvenience at the very worst. Fingerprints and photos are not denying anyone their rights.

Tell that to the judges that say asking for fingerprints and photos in order to vote is an unconstitutional infringement on the right to vote.

If you need to pass NFA items on to successors after death, or want someone else on the trust to have access to the items... trust.
If not.. individual
Allowing NFA items to be placed in trusts was never intended to be convenient.  If you want to play with NFA items you submit photos and prints... its that simple.
Getting rid of the pointless CLEO requirement is definitely overdue.

It is for voting, it's not for firearms. Sorry. The judges have been over this time and again. Background checks, photos, and fingerprints have been the NFA regulation for a very, very long time, there is no undiscovered territory here regarding infringement.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with it.  I don't like having to pay $200 just to be able to take a hacksaw to a shotgun, either.

Currently, there is a way to acquire NFA items without having to ask permission or notify local law enforcement.  It's none of their business anyway.

All of my NFA is individual and I am most definitely handing them down to my kids via F5. A trust doesn't do anything that I can't do without it in that regards.

Also my NFA is my nfa . I paid for the stuff. No one is taking my stuff out without me. Thus I see no reason for the extra expense of a trust.

My Cleo signs off, but just a notification like C and R is fine with me. It seems like the only folks getting butthurt are the ones with anti gun cleos that had to spend 500-1000 on a piece of paper.

The ones that spent $500-1000 got screwed, I spent $190 for mine from a trust lawyer who had done over 400 NFA trusts at the time with zero rejections.

It's just frustrating that most of the advantages of an NFA trust go out the window because some idiot thinks it's a loophole for felons to get NFA items "legally"

I'm active duty military. I'm currently in a free state, but my next assignment could be in NY, CA, HI, Europe, etc. The trust route makes it easy for me to deposit my NFA with trusted relatives permanently residing in free states. Coordinating fingerprint cards and passport photos with my aging parents 4000 miles away is an unnecessary obstacle.

No one has to like it, I don't like it. But all this wallowing seems to date people as being very young and inexperienced, if not naive. Photos and fingerprints have been part of NFA for many decades. It's not new and it's hardly some form of gun control. It's simply bringing the trust application in line with individuals. The LE notification could not be less of an issue. They don't have to receive it, you simply have to send it. Same procedure for Type 3 FFLs. And they have no power thereafter to deny you, reject you or search you.

All this woe is ridiculous....

So, you're saying we should have no real reason to object to the proposed changes.
I'm saying that I object to the add-ons for various reasons, and you're not going to convince me that I shouldn't object to them.

I shouldn't have to explain why, especially on this board.

You want to make some changes?  Put everything on a 4473 and drop the whole NFA branch, except possibly for DD's (not to include large-boars and shotguns that aren't really DD's), and possibly MG's, but only as a reluctant concession.

For one who supposedly doesn't like it, you've spent a lot of time defending it.

And it certainly is a form of gun control. The whole NFA is gun control. Anything that complicates the process is more gun control.

Sending in prints and photos was never a requirement for NFA items, it was an option if you didn't want to go the Trust or Corp route.

Jesus F'in Christ...  This is why we can't have nice things.



 

it is THE FIRST form of gun control in this country.  they couldn't make them 100% illegal so they made them impossible for 99% of Americans at the time to be able to get them.  

ok so can we get an edit in the original post that sums up the 9 pages so far?  i have a trust now with about 6 things in it and another 4 that need to go in so i need to know if i need to get those forms out like now or how it will change in the future?  there is way too much side talk in here and too much school work that i need to get done so i can't spend an hour reading through internet threads right now.  

No, photos and fingerprints have never been part of the NFA for Trusts. Its simply adding extra hassle to Trusts owning NFA items.

Those must be some comfortable blinders he's got on...

What BS.

Anyone have any idea when this is supposed to reach the public comment stage?

The fucking over of the Corp/LLC/Trust folks is total BS.

I can't wait to see what happens when a security company with gov't contracts and  dozens, if not hundreds of employees that have access to various NFA items start to have to submit paperwork with every employee in the company.

That is gonna shut down the process for a VERY long time.

I hope my cans come in soon so I can get them transferred on my trust before this crap starts, if it does indeed happen.

There is no way I am going to ask my parents, sister, and b-i-l to subject themselves to this crap.

Have you ever read the majority decision in the Us v Miller case?
The NFA requirements for military pattern firearms is most CERTAINLY unconstitutional gun control according to the majority opinion written by Justice McReynolds.

Most people who say you can regulate (read BAN) things like M-16's, Thompson MG's, and other automatic firearms, certain SBR's, and other military type weapons have never read the decision, and blindly think that since Miller's sawed of shotgun was not protected by the Second Amendment, that everything that gets classified as a MG, SBR, SBS, or AOW/DD isn't protected, which is incorrect.
The military style firearms are the very ones that Justice McReynolds clearly stated WERE protected by the Second Amendment.

The problem we have in regards to overturning the various restrictions is because people want to make the rules up as they go, and change the definitions of long established words, or make up new ones to make it appear that they have some level of knowledge of the subject to which they are speaking, without actually knowing WTF they are talking about, like your statement that the NFA process isn't some form of gun control, when everyone knows it is exactly that.
$200 in 1934 money is about equivalent to $3,478.80 in today's money according to the inflation calculator at  dollartimes.com .
How many people do you know that could afford spend almost $3500 to buy a suppressor or register a Form 1 SBR?
I'm betting none...

Exactly, I wish instead of being on the defensive all the time there would be a push to get rid of the NFA. It's absurd to have to pay a special tax to exercise your rights

People who go the individual route instead of making a trust are screwing it up for the guys who use a trust?

Could it be possible that you guys are actually posting an opinion that stupid and illogical?


Are you guys suffering from the delusion that the NFA-owning public is behind this push to get trustees photoed and fingerprinted?

Or could it possibly be the law enforcement body who is charged with regulating NFA stuff?

Hmm... that's a toughie all righty.   A brain teaser.


You know what these NFA trusts threads consist of?  

A bunch of non-lawyers, with virtually no understanding of the law, passing legal-airplane-treadmill advice back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

You happen to notice that there is virtually NEVER any actual lawyers offering advice or opinions in these threads?

Because lawyers don't want to open themselves to potential litigation for making a statement in regards to a topic that may not apply to every potential situation or get dinged for advertising their services without pre-approval from site staff.

And I don't blame them for that...

It isn't beneficial to anyone except the ATF, and nobody thinks it is OK except quisling bootlicks.