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Link Posted: 6/17/2024 5:21:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: a390st] [#1]
I'm sure the pending submissions will set until all the lawsuits are done, at which time they will be closed out without approval.  However, there is some degree of inequity if in fact the approved applications are let stand and other applications submitted complete and accurate by the advertised deadline are not processed.  That is if the unapproved pending applicants argue that it was within the purview of the  AG to forbear the tax, they made a valid submission, and others received a benefit they were denied.  It will be interesting to see how the whole situation plays out.
Link Posted: 6/17/2024 7:17:42 PM EST
[#2]
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Originally Posted By 3-gun:
I agree, if you have an approved form 1 it’s done, but I don’t think they can or will approve what is pending.
But who knows about the fatf. I’m sure they will try again but the problem is the long paper trail they have from prior approvals.
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I believe the Judge called the ATF attempts to backtrack "arbitrary and capricious."
Link Posted: 6/17/2024 8:47:00 PM EST
[#3]
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Originally Posted By a390st:
I'm sure the pending submissions will set until all the lawsuits are done, at which time they will be closed out without approval.  However, there is some degree of inequity if in fact the approved applications are let stand and other applications submitted complete and accurate by the advertised deadline are not processed.  That is if the unapproved pending applicants argue that it was within the purview of the  AG to forbear the tax, they made a valid submission, and others received a benefit they were denied.  It will be interesting to see how the whole situation plays out.
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Interesting, haven’t thought about it that way. But you’re correct about the AJ having the authority to waive it.
It may be better for them to go ahead and approve them while they decide what to do next.
Link Posted: 6/17/2024 8:59:47 PM EST
[#4]
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Originally Posted By a390st:
I'm sure the pending submissions will set until all the lawsuits are done, at which time they will be closed out without approval.  However, there is some degree of inequity if in fact the approved applications are let stand and other applications submitted complete and accurate by the advertised deadline are not processed.  That is if the unapproved pending applicants argue that it was within the purview of the  AG to forbear the tax, they made a valid submission, and others received a benefit they were denied.  It will be interesting to see how the whole situation plays out.
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Kinda what I have been saying, more or less.
Link Posted: 7/9/2024 8:56:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: durtychemist] [#5]
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Originally Posted By a390st:
I'm sure the pending submissions will set until all the lawsuits are done, at which time they will be closed out without approval.  However, there is some degree of inequity if in fact the approved applications are let stand and other applications submitted complete and accurate by the advertised deadline are not processed.  That is if the unapproved pending applicants argue that it was within the purview of the  AG to forbear the tax, they made a valid submission, and others received a benefit they were denied.  It will be interesting to see how the whole situation plays out.
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Why would they approve pending forms for a rule the courts essentially knocked down?

“Hey..here is your free approved form for a rule the courts determined is invalid.” Or whatever they decided.


Edit: the forms were approved only if the final rule was approved.  The final rule was not approved.  The pending applications will sit while the rest of the folks with the “approved pending final rule” do nothing. There isn’t a judge who is going to make the ATF convert the approved tax free forms to full SBR approvals. Pending or not, the final rule isn’t approved or removed so it’s a giant nothing burger at this point.
Link Posted: 7/9/2024 1:01:15 PM EST
[#6]
I’m still not sure what you said.
Link Posted: 7/9/2024 1:08:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: crazyelece] [#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By durtychemist:
the forms were approved only if the final rule was approved.  The final rule was not approved. There isn’t a judge who is going to make the ATF convert the approved tax free forms to full SBR approvals
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That's not how any of this works.

The "approved" forms are just that - approved. They are officially title 2 SBRs. The conditions were on the tax exempt part, not the SBR part. There is no "conversion" needed. Tax exempt forms are processed all the time, there is nothing unique about that.

ETA: quote doesn't appear to work, maybe it will later as it shows in preview.
Link Posted: 7/16/2024 8:08:54 PM EST
[#8]
Has the ATF appealed the decision in Mock v Garland?  They still list the factoring criteria on their website.  Seems to me that they must be appealing, otherwise they should remove the rule and update their site to include guidance to people who registered their FreeBR.  I agree with those here that say it's registered regardless of the rule and thus legal to put a proper stock or VFG on, but I think the ATF would owe a duty to citizens to also inform them that per the court's ruling, the firearm is not considered to be governed by Title 2 if configured without a stock or VFG.  I think that logically that must be the case even though conventional wisdom is that a SBR cannot return to being a pistol but could return to being a Title 1 rifle due to the fact that if left unchanged with a brace, it was never made as a rifle, SBR or otherwise.

caveat:  I'm not a lawyer, YMMV, and I intended to actually use the tax exempt pistol braced registrations as SBRs, so this is purely a thought exercise for me.
Link Posted: 10/20/2024 8:43:33 PM EST
[#9]
So, uhh, how are those FreeBRs working out now? Rule vacated, right? Still an SBR because registered or nothing burger because no stamp was given?
Link Posted: 10/20/2024 8:45:21 PM EST
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By crazyelece:


That's not how any of this works.

The "approved" forms are just that - approved. They are officially title 2 SBRs. The conditions were on the tax exempt part, not the SBR part. There is no "conversion" needed. Tax exempt forms are processed all the time, there is nothing unique about that.

ETA: quote doesn't appear to work, maybe it will later as it shows in preview.
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Umm...if they were never a short barreled rifle to begin with they would never have been registered. The conditions were directly tied to the 'SBR part' and the amnesty grace period was for an opportunity to register them.
Link Posted: 10/20/2024 9:06:59 PM EST
[#11]
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Originally Posted By durtychemist:
So, uhh, how are those FreeBRs working out now? Rule vacated, right? Still an SBR because registered or nothing burger because no stamp was given?
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Got a signed form 1, that’s all I need. Shot the scorpion Tuesday, will probably shoot the Colt this week
Link Posted: 10/21/2024 12:09:14 PM EST
[#12]
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Originally Posted By 3-gun:

Got a signed form 1, that’s all I need. Shot the scorpion Tuesday, will probably shoot the Colt this week
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Yup still have my signed form 1 that I didn’t pay a tax on, nothing from the ATF telling me otherwise.
Link Posted: 10/21/2024 12:26:13 PM EST
[#13]
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Originally Posted By durtychemist:


Umm...if they were never a short barreled rifle to begin with they would never have been registered. The conditions were directly tied to the 'SBR part' and the amnesty grace period was for an opportunity to register them.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By durtychemist:
Originally Posted By crazyelece:


That's not how any of this works.

The "approved" forms are just that - approved. They are officially title 2 SBRs. The conditions were on the tax exempt part, not the SBR part. There is no "conversion" needed. Tax exempt forms are processed all the time, there is nothing unique about that.

ETA: quote doesn't appear to work, maybe it will later as it shows in preview.


Umm...if they were never a short barreled rifle to begin with they would never have been registered. The conditions were directly tied to the 'SBR part' and the amnesty grace period was for an opportunity to register them.


And yet, all the approved NFA SBR's, remain approved NFA SBR's.  By mutual agreement of ATF and registrant that this serial numbered item, with this barrel length, is an SBR, and is made, or remade, or intended - to be a shoulder fired weapon.  Application approved, and firearm now classified as a legal NFA registered SBR.  USAG, by law, has authority to wave the tax fee - so it stays waved.

and those who did so, are now free to put an armbrace back on it, and call it a pistol at their discretion, and cross state-lines etc, as well as put a stock on it and run it as an SBR.

More importantly, they also can shoulder fire it - have video record and witnesses showing them shoulder firing it, and say they intended to should fire it -  even with a brace, and not be subject to prosecution of having made or remade an SBR subject to evidence of willful intended shoulder firing it.  None of the judicial rullings have overturned NFA SBR law - that's still on the books and fairly clearly written.  What they did say, in front of wounded vet plaintiffs who needed armbraces to help them fire their pistols as pistols with arm support, was that posession of a <16" firearm called a pistol with an armbrace, is not a crime.  They didn't say "and having that on there with intent to shoulder fire it, is also now exempt from NFA law too"

I wouldn't advise taking a lot of video or otherwise leaving a digital trail of using and intended to use an arm-brace firearm as a shoulder-fired primary intent, firearm.  That same judge will convict you, if ATF can make the case that your intent was to make or remake the gun to be a shoulder fired gun.

Not that there are going to be many prosecutions on any of that in any way or anyone regardless... for now.
Link Posted: 10/21/2024 1:08:04 PM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By durtychemist:


Umm...if they were never a short barreled rifle to begin with they would never have been registered. The conditions were directly tied to the 'SBR part' and the amnesty grace period was for an opportunity to register them.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By durtychemist:
Originally Posted By crazyelece:


That's not how any of this works.

The "approved" forms are just that - approved. They are officially title 2 SBRs. The conditions were on the tax exempt part, not the SBR part. There is no "conversion" needed. Tax exempt forms are processed all the time, there is nothing unique about that.

ETA: quote doesn't appear to work, maybe it will later as it shows in preview.


Umm...if they were never a short barreled rifle to begin with they would never have been registered. The conditions were directly tied to the 'SBR part' and the amnesty grace period was for an opportunity to register them.


Ummm...you realize this isn't GD right? For the umpteenth time, the conditions were for the "tax free" part. So if it wasn't clear even after you quoted me - "That's not how any of this works"
Link Posted: 10/23/2024 8:47:24 PM EST
[#15]
What is ATF's plan for pending submissions?  I would think at some point they would be required to approve all pending submissions or void/deny them.  .

Mine are all still pending, so I asked for a status update.  Waiting for the canned generic response.
Link Posted: 10/23/2024 9:05:05 PM EST
[#16]
Link Posted: 10/24/2024 1:08:53 PM EST
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By durtychemist:


Umm...if they were never a short barreled rifle to begin with they would never have been registered. The conditions were directly tied to the 'SBR part' and the amnesty grace period was for an opportunity to register them.
View Quote


I believe that the conditions on the approved Form 1s refer to the conditions under which they approved it without collecting the $200 tax, not conditions on which the firearm is regulated.  My take is that you have an approved Form 1 and can treat it like an SBR including installing a proper stock and a VFG.  Given the injunction, and assuming the ruling it upheld, I expect you could just forget that it was registered as a NFA item and continue treating it as a pistol (CCW, travel across state lines, etc) because the courts have said it isn't subject to the NFA and you never actually made it into a "rifle" and it isn't made "from a rifle".  IMO, best of both worlds.
Link Posted: 10/24/2024 1:32:51 PM EST
[#18]
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Originally Posted By O1gagt:
Mine are all still pending, so I asked for a status update.  Waiting for the canned generic response.
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Please post an update if you get a response.
Link Posted: 10/26/2024 9:03:07 PM EST
[#19]
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Originally Posted By Rope-A-Dope:

Please post an update if you get a response.
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Originally Posted By Rope-A-Dope:
Originally Posted By O1gagt:
Mine are all still pending, so I asked for a status update.  Waiting for the canned generic response.

Please post an update if you get a response.

They have consistently said that they are not processing applications pending resolution of the legal cases.  Things are going to remain in a holding pattern, according to everything that's come out of the call line to date.

They have the legal authority to process the remaining applications, but are choosing not to because the conditions under which they were accepted aren't in place at the moment.
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Free SBR stamp? (Page 17 of 17)
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