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Posted: 8/19/2023 10:38:37 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kenzo: I don't get it. Isn't the reason for owning a bullpup is to have the most compact weapon with rifle caliber performance? The compact size makes it suitable for vehicle operations, urban warfare, truck gun, home defense gun, etc. 16" bullpups are very compact for their bbl length and adding a suppressor will still keep it a more compact rifle than most other rifle platforms without a suppressor. Yet, a lot of members here are very excited about going to the bigger 20 inch Hellion bbl. Now you're entering 32-34 inches OAL territory which in my opinion negates the major benefit of the bullpup platform and puts you back in to 16" AR territory. I was very happy to have my 16" X95 but ecstatic when my shorter, 13 inch, X95 factory SBR was approved. Still a smaller package for a longer barrel, but I agree with you. I get it for others, but for me the goal is the smallest package while being long enough for 556. To me that’s a 14.5 pinned to 16. That way smallest possible, still good ballistics, and no nfa bull. I hate the idea of informing to go to matches out of state. |
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Posted: 8/19/2023 11:28:55 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kenzo: I don't get it. Isn't the reason for owning a bullpup is to have the most compact weapon with rifle caliber performance? The compact size makes it suitable for vehicle operations, urban warfare, truck gun, home defense gun, etc. 16" bullpups are very compact for their bbl length and adding a suppressor will still keep it a more compact rifle than most other rifle platforms without a suppressor. Yet, a lot of members here are very excited about going to the bigger 20 inch Hellion bbl. Now you're entering 32-34 inches OAL territory which in my opinion negates the major benefit of the bullpup platform and puts you back in to 16" AR territory. I was very happy to have my 16" X95 but ecstatic when my shorter, 13 inch, X95 factory SBR was approved. Because I can have a Tavor 7 20" or Hellion 20" and have a handy DMR in the length of a 16" AR. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 12:34:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ProbableColtAddict]
[#3]
I have the 16" version and I want the 20" version simply because I want it! That's good enough for me.
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Posted: 8/19/2023 12:59:38 PM EDT
[#4]
I want the performance. Also the balance of the gun is better if you have a bunch of crap on the gun.
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Posted: 8/19/2023 2:40:50 PM EDT
[#5]
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USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 9:29:09 PM EDT
[#6]
20” review from TFB, they state 2-2.5 MOA, but a more in depth review from them on accuracy is coming next, along with rifle grenade testing
Review |
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Posted: 8/20/2023 1:55:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: 20” review from TFB, they state 2-2.5 MOA, but a more in depth review from them on accuracy is coming next, along with rifle grenade testing Review Yeah I think they only used ball ammo so that’s solid result. |
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Posted: 8/20/2023 2:46:08 PM EDT
[#8]
With my 75gr Hornady HPBT reloads I can hit a steel silhouette at 450 yards with every single shot using a PA 3x microprism...and I suck.
These rifles have a lot of accuracy potential. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 8/20/2023 9:30:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: 20” review from TFB, they state 2-2.5 MOA, but a more in depth review from them on accuracy is coming next, along with rifle grenade testing Review IIRC the 18" AUG ended up the most accurate between the 16, 18, and 20 variants due to barrel harmonics (or maybe just low sample size) |
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USA
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Posted: 8/21/2023 12:34:54 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: Yeah I think they only used ball ammo so that’s solid result. Ya for a service rifle it’s good, but I’m wondering if it’s a step down from what the 16” can do, granted there’s more velocity in the 20” and it’s a horse a piece to me if it’s within .5 MOA difference on ball ammo |
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Posted: 8/21/2023 10:18:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: thehun06]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: Ya for a service rifle it’s good, but I’m wondering if it’s a step down from what the 16” can do, granted there’s more velocity in the 20” and it’s a horse a piece to me if it’s within .5 MOA difference on ball ammo Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: Originally Posted By thehun06: Yeah I think they only used ball ammo so that’s solid result. Ya for a service rifle it’s good, but I’m wondering if it’s a step down from what the 16” can do, granted there’s more velocity in the 20” and it’s a horse a piece to me if it’s within .5 MOA difference on ball ammo Thing is … once you hunt match accuracy … you really got to just find what works in that gun … for that barrel … 16” shots really well … but that 20” is just an authentic piece. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 8/22/2023 4:22:21 PM EDT
[#12]
I have the 20" BBL model on order and should be here later this week. My question is what's with the fins on the end of the barrel between the bayonet lug to the flash suppressor? Is it for launching rifle grenades? Reminds me of the mas 49/56.
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USA
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Posted: 8/22/2023 6:50:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brunse09: I have the 20" BBL model on order and should be here later this week. My question is what's with the fins on the end of the barrel between the bayonet lug to the flash suppressor? Is it for launching rifle grenades? Reminds me of the mas 49/56. Where did you order from? |
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Posted: 8/22/2023 7:10:52 PM EDT
[#14]
I got my 20" from Ky Gunco in Bardstown.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 8/22/2023 9:58:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brunse09]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: Where did you order from? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: Originally Posted By brunse09: I have the 20" BBL model on order and should be here later this week. My question is what's with the fins on the end of the barrel between the bayonet lug to the flash suppressor? Is it for launching rifle grenades? Reminds me of the mas 49/56. Where did you order from? My local dealer. |
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Posted: 8/23/2023 2:45:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Manticore_Arms: Sorry for the delay, but the Hellion Enhanced Safety System is now in stock and shipping! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/368252/Hellion_safety_3_edit-2884423.jpg Here is the installation video which covers all the procedure, tips, and tricks  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl0e3Bc2otESven Manticore Arms P.S. We had A LOT of people sign up for in stock notification, and have not put all of the inventory on the webstore, so if it says "out of stock" overnight, don't worry, more will be listed by tomorrow (wednesday 8/16) morning. You also deserve public credit for helping with this:  History Primer 182: US Colt 1909 Through 1911 Documentary |
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USA
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Posted: 8/23/2023 3:51:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brunse09: My local dealer. I’m likely going to trade mine in and get the new one, or put it up for sale, can only have one at a time |
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USA
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Posted: 8/23/2023 5:03:40 PM EDT
[#18]
I installed my safety switch today. It was a PITA as advertised but not horribly so. I do like the new switch over the original by a lot.
@Manticore_Arms: just as an FYI, the special tool in mine was broken when I opened the package. If it is that delicate you might want to pack it better for shipment. |
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Posted: 8/24/2023 1:25:38 AM EDT
[#19]
I just checked mine - also broken.
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Posted: 8/24/2023 12:37:09 PM EDT
[#20]
@ChengSMGT @spork
Thanks for the feedback on the included punches guys...we were afraid that might happen. Let me know if you have any issues getting the pin out. We are looking at going a different route for all orders going forward, we spent a lot on getting those made and it is very frustrating they won't even hold up in shipping. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 8/24/2023 12:42:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Manticore_Arms]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: You also deserve public credit for helping with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG73dIAEV_4Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms: Sorry for the delay, but the Hellion Enhanced Safety System is now in stock and shipping! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/368252/Hellion_safety_3_edit-2884423.jpg Here is the installation video which covers all the procedure, tips, and tricks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl0e3Bc2otESven Manticore Arms P.S. We had A LOT of people sign up for in stock notification, and have not put all of the inventory on the webstore, so if it says "out of stock" overnight, don't worry, more will be listed by tomorrow (wednesday 8/16) morning. You also deserve public credit for helping with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG73dIAEV_4@backbencher, Thanks, Othais is a good friend of mine (we actually met at IV8888 shoot some years ago- I was all alone at my booth at that event due to scheduling conflicts with my employees, and CandRsenal needed a place to shoot, so we helped each other out that weekend and our friendship was born.  ). I was able to leverage some spare cash I had at the time to make the early Colts happen ( I have an interest in firearms development, so being able to see all the developmental process of JMB and Colt right in my own hands was a huge bonus). The 1907 Colt is probably the most featured/seen 1907 in the world- it is the same one that has been on both Forgotten Weapons and CandRsenal...how is that for provenance, lol! Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 8/24/2023 12:46:52 PM EDT
[#22]
I haven't gotten around to working on mine yet but I will let you know.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/24/2023 6:05:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Guess I got lucky, my tool wasn’t broken, but I can see how it could be. Seems like a simple fix to cut off slip a piece of poly tubing over the end, or even just tape the thin tip to a square of cardboard or something.
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USA
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Posted: 8/25/2023 4:26:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Manticore_Arms: @ChengSMGT @spork Thanks for the feedback on the included punches guys...we were afraid that might happen. Let me know if you have any issues getting the pin out. We are looking at going a different route for all orders going forward, we spent a lot on getting those made and it is very frustrating they won't even hold up in shipping. Sven Manticore Arms I'm fine with mine, I am fairly resourceful. Probably going to JB Weld the stub in the handle for any future use. Just wanted to give you a heads-up on it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2023 12:32:37 AM EDT
[#25]
You can get it out with a standard, unmodified punch. You're just going to bend it, and you might need vice grips to yank it out.
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Posted: 8/26/2023 6:23:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Got mine installed. The tool being broken didn't slow me down.
The whole process was easier than I thought. I look forward to the next VHS2 upgrade Manticore comes up with. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/26/2023 12:35:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spork: Got mine installed. The tool being broken didn't slow me down. The whole process was easier than I thought. I look forward to the next VHS2 upgrade Manticore comes up with. Glad you were still able to make it work, also looking forward to Manitcore’s next set of products (Prays for handguards and triggers) |
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USA
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Posted: 8/26/2023 3:08:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Shot mine today, first time since the new safety switch install. Much easier and more intuitive to use than the stock one.
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Posted: 8/26/2023 10:27:41 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 8/28/2023 3:25:37 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 8/31/2023 10:00:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Springfield has the official German-made Croatian-issue bayonet available now in their webstore:
https://store.springfield-armory.com/waffentechnik-model-b2k-7-3-bayonet-fits-nato-pattern-rifles/  Attached File$300 is a little steep but looks cool. |
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Posted: 8/31/2023 2:21:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: Springfield has the official German-made Croatian-issue bayonet available now in their webstore: https://store.springfield-armory.com/waffentechnik-model-b2k-7-3-bayonet-fits-nato-pattern-rifles/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/ge4618-1-1080x510-1_jpg-2938230.JPG $300 is a little steep but looks cool. Man the LOP in that pic looks nuts. Does anyone actually shoot this thing fully extended? Pic looks proportionally like shouldering an ar but the pistol grip is halfway up a 12 inch handguard.
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Posted: 8/31/2023 5:37:57 PM EDT
[#33]
We need a bullpup w/ a lower pic rail, and an electronic trigger/pistol grip module that QD mounts to the pic rail allowing adjustment of LOP, and solves the bullpup trigger pull issue.
Add an adjustable stock that covers a rear mechanical trigger when collapsed, and you have an emergency backup if your batteries die or you lose your electronic trigger module. Would also allow US bullpups under 26" w/ stock collapsed. |
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Posted: 8/31/2023 6:39:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: $300 is a little steep but looks cool. $300 is especially steep since B2Ks were selling for about $200 last time I saw them in stock. These don't even have the Springfield name or Grip Zone on them to justify the 50% premium.
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VT, USA
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Posted: 8/31/2023 7:30:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Cool! Good to see my M7 will fit.
I was wondering if VHS used a proprietary bayonet. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/31/2023 10:38:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: Springfield has the official German-made Croatian-issue bayonet available now in their webstore: https://store.springfield-armory.com/waffentechnik-model-b2k-7-3-bayonet-fits-nato-pattern-rifles/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/ge4618-1-1080x510-1_jpg-2938230.JPG $300 is a little steep but looks cool. Is a spare bolt too much to ask? |
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USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:12:07 AM EDT
[#37]
I always liked the Eickhorn Soligen KCB-77 series bayonets. Never heard of this brand.
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USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:12:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Any word on barrel/gas block combos? I’d rather add a 20” to my existing 16” gun instead of trading and losing my 16” rifle
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VT, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 7:16:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: Any word on barrel/gas block combos? I’d rather add a 20” to my existing 16” gun instead of trading and losing my 16” rifle Me too. But I wonder how is headspace controlled or adjusted... |
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USA
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Posted: 9/1/2023 7:22:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stonia: Man the LOP in that pic looks nuts. Does anyone actually shoot this thing fully extended? Pic looks proportionally like shouldering an ar but the pistol grip is halfway up a 12 inch handguard. I do. Don't have any problems. Sleeve length for me is 35". |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 9:26:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: Add a little flair to your Hellion! Not my business but thought I’d share what I found tonight … Krylon cheaper and covers way more….. |
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Posted: 9/4/2023 2:28:17 AM EDT
[#42]
The Hellion just seems to be very well built and a solid rifle. I’m thinking of making it my “go to” as it is small enough and maneuverable but also reliable.
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Posted: 9/4/2023 9:43:38 PM EDT
[#43]
VHS-2 D2 for reference (military 20" barrel version).
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Posted: 9/6/2023 11:27:15 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By davidb1982: The Hellion just seems to be very well built and a solid rifle. I’m thinking of making it my “go to” as it is small enough and maneuverable but also reliable. Hellion, Aug, and x95 are all pretty good but my go to will always be an Aug, with a hellion in 2nd. |
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Posted: 9/6/2023 1:26:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Findsman]
[#45]
Picked up my 20" model this morning.
 Attached FileCame with a PMAG, stuck an ETS mag in there since it sorta resembles the factory mag. New safety is nice. Bayonet lug doesn't seem to fit an OKC-3S, M-7B, or an ancient M-7 so I'm guessing that lug is specific to the $300 German bayonet. Not a deal breaker, my Bren 805 carbine has a useless bayonet lug too. Went with a PA micro 5x with one of the PSA daily deal Truglo mini reflexes on top. Eye relief is pretty spot on, height is correct. Might not have purchased the original 16" had I known the 20" was coming. Oh well, can never have too many.  What'll really hurt is if Springfield releases them in FDE or ODG....ETA - I'd also like to give some credit here to Springfield, the Hellion line is pretty damn close to the original military VHS-2. Some slight tweaks for import and US-market but nothing too egregious like the IWI Carmel. This is how it should be done. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2023 2:44:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: Picked up my 20" model this morning. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Springfield_Hellion_VHS-D2_JPG-2944710.JPG Came with a PMAG, stuck an ETS mag in there since it sorta resembles the factory mag. New safety is nice. Bayonet lug doesn't seem to fit an OKC-3S, M-7B, or an ancient M-7 so I'm guessing that lug is specific to the $300 German bayonet. Not a deal breaker, my Bren 805 carbine has a useless bayonet lug too. Went with a PA micro 5x with one of the PSA daily deal Truglo mini reflexes on top. Eye relief is pretty spot on, height is correct. Might not have purchased the original 16" had I known the 20" was coming. Oh well, can never have too many. What'll really hurt is if Springfield releases them in FDE or ODG....ETA - I'd also like to give some credit here to Springfield, the Hellion line is pretty damn close to the original military VHS-2. Some slight tweaks for import and US-market but nothing too egregious like the IWI Carmel. This is how it should be done. Very nice setup - my plan was to do almost the exact same thing. How do you like that 5x? |
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Posted: 9/6/2023 3:08:55 PM EDT
[#47]
(total sarcasm, this is not an advertisement and does NOT need to be put into the EE) Anyone looking for a low serial number Tavor SAR? I need to sell it to fund my Hellion/VHS 2
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USA
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Posted: 9/6/2023 4:54:08 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: Picked up my 20" model this morning. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Springfield_Hellion_VHS-D2_JPG-2944710.JPG Came with a PMAG, stuck an ETS mag in there since it sorta resembles the factory mag. New safety is nice. Bayonet lug doesn't seem to fit an OKC-3S, M-7B, or an ancient M-7 so I'm guessing that lug is specific to the $300 German bayonet. Not a deal breaker, my Bren 805 carbine has a useless bayonet lug too. Went with a PA micro 5x with one of the PSA daily deal Truglo mini reflexes on top. Eye relief is pretty spot on, height is correct. Might not have purchased the original 16" had I known the 20" was coming. Oh well, can never have too many. What'll really hurt is if Springfield releases them in FDE or ODG....ETA - I'd also like to give some credit here to Springfield, the Hellion line is pretty damn close to the original military VHS-2. Some slight tweaks for import and US-market but nothing too egregious like the IWI Carmel. This is how it should be done. Could you do some side by sides with your 16” (rifle) to show feature differences? Also how do they handle compared to one another? Looks great! |
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Posted: 9/7/2023 10:39:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Findsman]
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Karter14171: Very nice setup - my plan was to do almost the exact same thing. How do you like that 5x? I'll be honest, I'm not entirely blown away by it yet. Mostly just larping around the house so far though. Since it's a micro-prism, there's a definitely tradeoff in the optic brightness. Small objective lens, kinda dim if there's not good backlighting. It does sit at the right eye level with the mount configured at its lowest, at least for me. I've been bumping it forward/backward a slot on the rail trying to hit the exact eye relief. I have it two forward from when I took the pic and it seems okay. I went with the Aurora 5.56/.308 reticle and I think it was the right choice for me. I'm not military-trained so mildot reticles are dark magic to me. I like the Aurora design that comes in the 5x more than the Raptor in the 3x.So that's probably not quite the stellar endorsement you were hoping for. Some of it might be on me to accept the tradeoffs the micro-prism has for the size/weight reduction; I have a bunch of the "full-size" prisms from PA that I've liked and the optical clarity of a real ACOG is even a step above those but you pay for that. Maybe as I play with it more outside it'll shine. I'll try to get some comparison pics between the 16/20 today. The safety is the only overt difference I can really see aside from the barrel length. I put an A1 grip on the 16" version, seems like the angle works better with the goofy safety lever. I don't feel as compelled to swap the BCM grip on the 20" with the new safety, seems fairly easily to operate. ETA - Moved pics to page 11, at the top. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/7/2023 12:02:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: I'll be honest, I'm not entirely blown away by it yet. Mostly just larping around the house so far though. Since it's a micro-prism, there's a definitely tradeoff in the optic brightness. Small objective lens, kinda dim if there's not good backlighting. It does sit at the right eye level with the mount configured at its lowest, at least for me. I've been bumping it forward/backward a slot on the rail trying to hit the exact eye relief. I have it two forward from when I took the pic and it seems okay. I went with the Aurora 5.56/.308 reticle and I think it was the right choice for me. I'm not military-trained so mildot reticles are dark magic to me. I like the Aurora design that comes in the 5x more than the Raptor in the 3x.So that's probably not quite the stellar endorsement you were hoping for. Some of it might be on me to accept the tradeoffs the micro-prism has for the size/weight reduction; I have a bunch of the "full-size" prisms from PA that I've liked and the optical clarity of a real ACOG is even a step above those but you pay for that. Maybe as I play with it more outside it'll shine. I'll try to get some comparison pics between the 16/20 today. The safety is the only overt difference I can really see aside from the barrel length. I put an A1 grip on the 16" version, seems like the angle works better with the goofy safety lever. I don't feel as compelled to swap the BCM grip on the 20" with the new safety, seems fairly easily to operate. Does the new ambi-safety dig into your hand/trigger finger on your dominant hand, much like the scorpion or is there clearance? |
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