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Posted: 2/14/2023 5:23:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People seem to forget that. Then make excuses for why it was so effective, like "well those people were innocent victims, not attackers"  It's a NATO round now. It's pretty neat. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 5:39:51 PM EDT
[#2]
With good ammo, I think loads are on par with 9/40/45 in terms of wounding, and can exceed them to a point. They especially have the advantage of soft armor penetration, even by some load such as the Speer Gold Dot (unless the revised 2022 bullet design and slower speeds were done to stop this). There are loads such as Elite Ammo's T6B, and Vangaurd Outfitter's Black Dragon Fang, that have quite a bit of velocity on their side. Arguably enough from the pistol at close range to exceed velocities where you have rifle like wounding vs pistol wounding. Years ago I shot SS198LF into pork shoulder. It had a larger wound cavity than .45 HST, and both penetrated to 9". However 1 pork shoulder to another is not a consistent medium. I put SS198LF on the bottom of my preferred loads because of it's suboptimal penetration depths in clear gel. It tops out in the 8-9" range from all barrel lengths, and tends to track off from it's original path, likely due to it's yaw/tumbling.
The best two rounds to compare the whole "5.7 is just 22 mag rifle" is the Gold Dot. When I tested it, the 4.75" barrel got the load to ~1,800 fps. It took a 16" carbine 22 Mag to get that. There are no lighter loads in 22 mag that come near the velocity the pistol can obtain. The other area people tend to look past is bullet construction. 22 mag uses lead core bullets with very thin jackets. During the same test, most 22 mag GD struggled to make it to 12" and had jacket separation issues. The 22 5.7 penetrated well above the 12" mark. It was done in clear gel so YMMV. In all honesty in the end if you shoot the gun well, and train with it, your shot placement matters the most, and how many rounds you can put on target. :D 5.7 tends to carry a lot of hype and criticism, just like 10mm. Most 10mm loads out there are severely performance limited by manufacturers, just like run of the mill 5.7 ammo is. Saying 5.7 sucks in general because of the shit 40gr vmax, seems a little far reaching.. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 7:58:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Thank you for the expertise with this round.
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Posted: 2/14/2023 9:56:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How long were they left to bleed out? Ft Hood is a case study for the importance of timely first response, not for the round used. A .22 (well, a .22 different than 5.7) would have been approcimately as effective. The first victims still alive received medical treatment with 2 minutes of the onset of shooting. Most of those who died were determined to be deceased near instantly due to shot placement. The 2 men that charged Hussain from less than 15ft were killed before they reached him. There were over 8 -10 RNs (I forget the exact #) in the Readiness building this took place in doing their deployment outprocessing. As an AFSOC medic/planner, I deployed with one of these nurses (murse) in 2017 on the JSOC SRT and we obviously talked. The victims outside recieved medical treatment as soon as the shooting ceased after 9 minutes as medical assets were staged in wait. So roughly 7 minutes max after the first outside victim was shot. Those taken to the post hospital arrived within a couple minutes. I went on a date an attractive ED physician CPT on duty that day 2 weeks later and it's all we talked about. No 2nd date as she said I lived too far away. :/ She described the victims GSWs as "rifle wounds" and Hassan's wounds as "pistol wounds". I reviewed all the medical reports about a year later and they jived with what she told me. Also reviewed the classified (S) CID AAR as well. I've made a few posts here on this over the last decade+. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:34:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. I have a copy of the AAR and a teaching packet I used in the academy. That includes the autopsy summary on every fatality and the wound descriptions on the survivors. I have also stood right next the the pathologist during an autopsy on a 5.7 suicide. It's a 40 gr jacketed bullet at 1800 fps for roughly 280 ft lbs. Same as a 22 Magnum out of a rifle. It's not the magic death ray guntards claim. The wound channel is indistinguishable from a .380 ACP and the varmint bullets tend to fragment. CID's AAR should still be classified Secret. If there's a unclassified AAR, it's something that got filtered through Public Affairs and brass. Hassan loaded all his mags with SS192 28gr. I'm sure a 5.7 SME like @Buffman_LT1 can explain the difference between SS192 and SS197 to you. His SS197 was still found in boxes. He purchased 3k rounds of both. That ".380" wound track killed at least 2 guys before they could charge less than 15ft, shattered another man's pelvis, and blew a large amount of muscle off officer Kim Munley's thighs and shattered a knee. Each of the 2 rounds traveled all the way through both her legs. Meanwhile officer Mark Todd shot Hassan COM 5x with 9mm +P HP with Hassan surviving. All initial reports released by Army claimed Kim Munley brought down Hassan singlehandedly. A week later Civ officer Todd went public with his version and the Army recanted the initial version knowing the truth the whole time. #strongwoman |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:41:55 PM EDT
[#6]
I consider my PS90 SBR a urban/car get home SHTF gun. Its small and can easily be fired from inside of a car. You can carry a lot of the ammunition without having a lot of weight in your pack or your pockets. 50 round magazine, and easy to use. It's basically the perfect firearm to use in an urban area or to give to someone with little to no experience with firearms.
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:44:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The new S&W 5.7 looks pretty cool My local gun shops gonna have one in a couple days. I wanna come check it out. It comes with a threaded barrel. Perfect for my omega 9K. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:48:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the FN red box still available?? SS198LF is available, but there is a shit ton of price gouging currently |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:49:03 PM EDT
[#9]
I don't quite get the appeal of the round.
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:53:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speer has a GOLD DOT 5.7x28mm defensive round that looks very promising. Can you link and @ me? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 10:56:46 PM EDT
[#11]
You know, I always found it curious that 5.7 fanboys always use the 2009 Ft Hood shooting as a performance example, but no one ever brings up the 2014 Ft Hood shooting when touting the effectiveness of a Glock .45 ACP.
How about a 5.7 performance example away from Ft Hood? Is the execution style murders in 2009 all you have to hang your hat on? |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 11:09:24 PM EDT
[#12]
I kept my PS90 but sold my FiveSeven so that should let you know how I feel about the platform.
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Posted: 2/14/2023 11:16:27 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: PSA has AR57s in stock I just got a 12" barrel one. Just for fun and I like the function of the magazine. I would get a Keltec P50 but for the break-open magazine change Now I need to buy some ammo p90 is the select fire version. its what the whole platform was designed for, 5.7, small platform, easily controlled fire from a PDW. unfortunately its verboten for the common man. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 11:29:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I consider my PS90 SBR a urban/car get home SHTF gun. Its small and can easily be fired from inside of a car. You can carry a lot of the ammunition without having a lot of weight in your pack or your pockets. 50 round magazine, and easy to use. It's basically the perfect firearm to use in an urban area or to give to someone with little to no experience with firearms. That was my main thinking when I bought one, but it's a hell of a lot of fun for small game, so it sometimes has replaced the 10/22 for just woods fucking around. |
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Posted: 2/14/2023 11:32:04 PM EDT
[#15]
So what does the secret service know that the experts here don't?
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Posted: 2/14/2023 11:43:40 PM EDT
[#16]
It is an expensive toy .......It would be good for home defense in an apartment. Hopefully PSA comes thru with cheaper ammo.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 2/15/2023 12:59:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what does the secret service know that the experts here don't? |
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Posted: 2/15/2023 6:18:01 PM EDT
[#18]
So FN SS198LF is still available!????
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Posted: 2/15/2023 6:19:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you link and @ me? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Speer has a GOLD DOT 5.7x28mm defensive round that looks very promising. Can you link and @ me? https://youtu.be/VXyfDcsLSyY |
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Posted: 2/15/2023 6:21:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what does the secret service know that the experts here don't? You know, it's funny when fanbois that hate the govt have to rely on govt use of rifles and ammo you cannot buy, in order to champion their cartridge. 
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Posted: 2/15/2023 6:44:15 PM EDT
[#21]
It’s not the greatest ever devised cartridge but proper ammunition from the proper firearms it can be effective. A lot of the time my travel gun is a PS90 when it’s not traveling with the family it’s my wife’s primary HD rifle. She tried multiple long guns and loved the low recoil and light weight. To me the thought of the handgun that’s appealing is the low recoil but better effectiveness than lesser calibers.
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Posted: 2/15/2023 8:16:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s not the greatest ever devised cartridge but proper ammunition from the proper firearms it can be effective. A lot of the time my travel gun is a PS90 when it’s not traveling with the family it’s my wife’s primary HD rifle. She tried multiple long guns and loved the low recoil and light weight. To me the thought of the handgun that’s appealing is the low recoil but better effectiveness than lesser calibers. My wife has claimed the suppressed and SBR’d PS90 with VMAX handloads as her Zombie Apocalypse gat for the same reasons. She has shot competitively with an AR9, but the bullpup layout of the short PS90 with a K can on the end is easier for her to manipulate controls on and clear issues. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 1:01:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://youtu.be/VXyfDcsLSyY  5.7x28mm, Speer Gold Dot, 40gr JHP |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 1:04:39 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of shit talkers that I doubt would want to be on the receiving end. I think it's a good survival, E&E, or PDW round...it's not perfect, but it's more than adequate. ROCK6 I don’t want to be on the receiving end of a slingshot either. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 7:44:58 AM EDT
[#25]
Lol
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:05:22 AM EDT
[#26]
A lot of people rag on 5.7x28, but it has its uses. It’s about as effective as a .380 (which many people carry), the new S&W holds 22+1rnds, and the pistol is very light even when loaded. Toss on a red dot and now it’s 100yd capable in a very small package. They’re great for hiking where weight matters, and make a great tractor gun (groundhogs and coyotes are good practice). With the right ammo (SS198LF or Speer GD) they’re effective enough for self defense. And with minimal recoil you have a better hit probability. All around they’re not the only handgun I’d own, but with multiple 9mm, 10mm, .45, etc handguns already in the safe…why the hell not?
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:08:25 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The coating is also to aid in extraction from the chamber. Tumbling off the lube can lead to case separation. I wash fired brass in warm water and simple green and agitate by hand before drying. Then it’s resize/deprime and trim like any other bottle necked case. It may not even matter anymore in the case of the M&P since it’s not a blowback design. Primary extraction comes from rotation and unlocking of the barrel. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:09:47 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the FN red box still available?? Yes. Still pops up fairly regularly at one place I check now and then for $28/box… 
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:10:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the FN red box still available?? Double. ARF staff really need to fix this “cannot parse response” issue. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:17:03 AM EDT
[#30]
Assuming identical guns, what would you choose 5.7 or 30SC?
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:20:30 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Assuming identical guns, what would you choose 5.7 or 30SC? In a full size handgun (because that’s all you’ll find them in)… 5.7x28 If I wanted a compact or subcompact, maybe the 30SC…. But neither before having at least a 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp handgun in the safe first. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:31:19 AM EDT
[#32]
With the full-performance rounds, the armor-piercing capability combined with magazine capacity is rather impressive out of a pistol. With the slower mass-market rounds, it's rather anemic. Its worth is absolutely ammunition-dependent.
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Posted: 2/16/2023 9:43:08 AM EDT
[#33]
 Personal Protection: Spear Gold Dot 5.7x28 JHP I had hope for the gold dot…. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 10:31:19 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryIn all seriousness it's a JHP that expands to diameters of mediocre quality 9mm. Unlike the 40gr Vmax that's below it's threshold to have any terminal affect, the GD was at least designed to work in the velocity thresholds of 5.7 and does show it's capable of penetrating beyond 12" in gel and does expand. They have re-designed the bullet to be more like the rifle projectile GD, and I'm waiting for more samples to test. I have also been told that they may have pulled velocity from this load, which if the case, is sad. Off the shelf wise, (pending a 2023 lot re-test) I still place The Gold Dot highest on the list because it's penetration depths get it to the FBI min. SS198 would be next and some could argue that we have enough velocity from it to give some rifle like wounding, but penetration depths stall at the 8-9" and the bullet does not track straight in test medium. My preferred loads are still Elite Ammo's T6B, DevastaTOR 2.0/3.0, and Vangaurd Outfitters Black Dragon Fang. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 12:02:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Assuming identical guns, what would you choose 5.7 or 30SC? 5.7 guns are huge though. If you want to cut out all the foreplay, just get a BRNO |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 12:20:37 PM EDT
[#36]
That guy that shot up a Navy base a few years ago was using 5.7 and I think every person he hit died, so I'd say it's an effective round.
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Posted: 2/16/2023 12:23:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That guy that shot up a Navy base a few years ago was using 5.7 and I think every person he hit died, so I'd say it's an effective round. I believe you're wrong on many points in this post. Navy Yard shooter used a sawed off 12 gauge. Or if you're thinking the Pensacola shooter, he used a Glock 17, I believe. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 12:49:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe you're wrong on many points in this post. Navy Yard shooter used a sawed off 12 gauge. Or if you're thinking the Pensacola shooter, he used a Glock 17, I believe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That guy that shot up a Navy base a few years ago was using 5.7 and I think every person he hit died, so I'd say it's an effective round. I believe you're wrong on many points in this post. Navy Yard shooter used a sawed off 12 gauge. Or if you're thinking the Pensacola shooter, he used a Glock 17, I believe. He's talking about Hasan the Ft Hood shooter. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 12:56:41 PM EDT
[#39]
I have a Ruger 57 and use it as a Jeep/UTV/tractor gun. I have shot coyotes with it and am not impressed with its terminal performance.
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Posted: 2/16/2023 1:04:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's talking about Hasan the Ft Hood shooter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That guy that shot up a Navy base a few years ago was using 5.7 and I think every person he hit died, so I'd say it's an effective round. I believe you're wrong on many points in this post. Navy Yard shooter used a sawed off 12 gauge. Or if you're thinking the Pensacola shooter, he used a Glock 17, I believe. He's talking about Hasan the Ft Hood shooter. I figured, but that's already been addressed so I stuck with the "Navy" bit and tried to see if it went somewhere else 
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Posted: 2/16/2023 1:06:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a Ruger 57 and use it as a Jeep/UTV/tractor gun. I have shot coyotes with it and am not impressed with its terminal performance. What load or handloaded projectile did you use? Ever recover one and cut it open or have they all run away after being hit? I have 5.7 firearms, but don't hunt with them nor are any setup as an HD gun. They're just for range fun so I don't get embroiled with the ballistics/terminal effects arguments, but I still find firsthand accounts interesting. |
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Posted: 2/17/2023 4:14:31 PM EDT
[#42]
What is the fastest commercial 5.7x28 ammo sold right now????
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Posted: 2/17/2023 4:18:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the fastest commercial 5.7x28 ammo sold right now???? Probably SS195LF. It's like 2150fps out of a five seven and 2550 out of a PS90 or something like that. |
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Posted: 2/18/2023 12:53:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the fastest commercial 5.7x28 ammo sold right now???? |
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:00:52 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Useless Like your opinion on this and so many other matters.
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:03:29 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CID's AAR should still be classified Secret. If there's a unclassified AAR, it's something that got filtered through Public Affairs and brass. Hassan loaded all his mags with SS192 28gr. I'm sure a 5.7 SME like @Buffman_LT1 can explain the difference between SS192 and SS197 to you. His SS197 was still found in boxes. He purchased 3k rounds of both. That ".380" wound track killed at least 2 guys before they could charge less than 15ft, shattered another man's pelvis, and blew a large amount of muscle off officer Kim Munley's thighs and shattered a knee. Each of the 2 rounds traveled all the way through both her legs. Meanwhile officer Mark Todd shot Hassan COM 5x with 9mm +P HP with Hassan surviving. All initial reports released by Army claimed Kim Munley brought down Hassan singlehandedly. A week later Civ officer Todd went public with his version and the Army recanted the initial version knowing the truth the whole time. #strongwoman Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. I have a copy of the AAR and a teaching packet I used in the academy. That includes the autopsy summary on every fatality and the wound descriptions on the survivors. I have also stood right next the the pathologist during an autopsy on a 5.7 suicide. It's a 40 gr jacketed bullet at 1800 fps for roughly 280 ft lbs. Same as a 22 Magnum out of a rifle. It's not the magic death ray guntards claim. The wound channel is indistinguishable from a .380 ACP and the varmint bullets tend to fragment. CID's AAR should still be classified Secret. If there's a unclassified AAR, it's something that got filtered through Public Affairs and brass. Hassan loaded all his mags with SS192 28gr. I'm sure a 5.7 SME like @Buffman_LT1 can explain the difference between SS192 and SS197 to you. His SS197 was still found in boxes. He purchased 3k rounds of both. That ".380" wound track killed at least 2 guys before they could charge less than 15ft, shattered another man's pelvis, and blew a large amount of muscle off officer Kim Munley's thighs and shattered a knee. Each of the 2 rounds traveled all the way through both her legs. Meanwhile officer Mark Todd shot Hassan COM 5x with 9mm +P HP with Hassan surviving. All initial reports released by Army claimed Kim Munley brought down Hassan singlehandedly. A week later Civ officer Todd went public with his version and the Army recanted the initial version knowing the truth the whole time. #strongwoman Great info, thank you. |
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:07:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SS198LF is around 2,250 fps from the 5.2" rock. Elite Ammo's S4M/UR with the same bullet hit 2,433 in 30F cooler weather. Their T6B is equally as fast. Those are commercially available just not in stock very often. Vanguard's Black Dragon Fang claims around 2,200 fps, but recent lots of mine have shown around 2,000. It is funny how people bitching about the 5.7 completely gloss over the fact that there are 5.7 pistol loads that exceed the velocity of a Mk18s carbine. |
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:17:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SS198LF is around 2,250 fps from the 5.2" rock. Elite Ammo's S4M/UR with the same bullet hit 2,433 in 30F cooler weather. Their T6B is equally as fast. Those are commercially available just not in stock very often. Vanguard's Black Dragon Fang claims around 2,200 fps, but recent lots of mine have shown around 2,000. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What is the fastest commercial 5.7x28 ammo sold right now???? Thank you |
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:25:59 AM EDT
[#49]
Y'all listen to Buffman. He is an SME on all things 5.7 and just about everything he posts
is from his own testing. He is the man and I would take his opinions and recommendations very seriously. |
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Posted: 2/18/2023 2:01:18 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The first victims still alive received medical treatment with 2 minutes of the onset of shooting. Most of those who died were determined to be deceased near instantly due to shot placement. The 2 men that charged Hussain from less than 15ft were killed before they reached him. There were over 8 -10 RNs (I forget the exact #) in the Readiness building this took place in doing their deployment outprocessing. As an AFSOC medic/planner, I deployed with one of these nurses (murse) in 2017 on the JSOC SRT and we obviously talked. The victims outside recieved medical treatment as soon as the shooting ceased after 9 minutes as medical assets were staged in wait. So roughly 7 minutes max after the first outside victim was shot. Those taken to the post hospital arrived within a couple minutes. I went on a date an attractive ED physician CPT on duty that day 2 weeks later and it's all we talked about. No 2nd date as she said I lived too far away. :/ She described the victims GSWs as "rifle wounds" and Hassan's wounds as "pistol wounds". I reviewed all the medical reports about a year later and they jived with what she told me. Also reviewed the classified (S) CID AAR as well. I've made a few posts here on this over the last decade+. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How long were they left to bleed out? Ft Hood is a case study for the importance of timely first response, not for the round used. A .22 (well, a .22 different than 5.7) would have been approcimately as effective. The first victims still alive received medical treatment with 2 minutes of the onset of shooting. Most of those who died were determined to be deceased near instantly due to shot placement. The 2 men that charged Hussain from less than 15ft were killed before they reached him. There were over 8 -10 RNs (I forget the exact #) in the Readiness building this took place in doing their deployment outprocessing. As an AFSOC medic/planner, I deployed with one of these nurses (murse) in 2017 on the JSOC SRT and we obviously talked. The victims outside recieved medical treatment as soon as the shooting ceased after 9 minutes as medical assets were staged in wait. So roughly 7 minutes max after the first outside victim was shot. Those taken to the post hospital arrived within a couple minutes. I went on a date an attractive ED physician CPT on duty that day 2 weeks later and it's all we talked about. No 2nd date as she said I lived too far away. :/ She described the victims GSWs as "rifle wounds" and Hassan's wounds as "pistol wounds". I reviewed all the medical reports about a year later and they jived with what she told me. Also reviewed the classified (S) CID AAR as well. I've made a few posts here on this over the last decade+. I was always of the impression that most aid took a lot longer; that’s interesting to know. But then again I was of the assumption that he was using 197 so I can admit I’m behind the curve. If he was using the zippier stuff I don’t doubt it made some fairly mean wounds. |
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