Not my photos, but I have a 1977 production 6" Colt Trooper MkIII and a 1978 production 6" S&W Model 19-4 in .357 Magnum in very similar condition. Problem is.... I'm five hundred miles away from them at the moment. So these pics will have to represent what I currently have to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.












I can say that both are best of their lines. My 19-4 is a pre '82 gun so it still has the pinned barrel and recessed cylinder unlike the one shown here. Both are smooth, accurate, and capable guns. Six inch guns are especially classy since they were the cat's meow for cops back in the day. Motor Cops and Highway Troopers had a hankering for the six inchers since there was improved ballistics and a longer sight radius. They also just balance and handle better.

Anyways, the Trooper MkIII was a complete departure from the original Trooper/.357 Magnum line. Originally introduced in the early 1950s as a Medium Frame .357 Duty Gun, by the late 60s, the original Trooper was showing its age. So Colt completely redesigned the line. Stainless coil springs, shrouded ejector rod, better trigger, and that still classic deep royal blue finish. Adjustable sights of course are standard.

S&W also introduced their medium frame .357 duty gun at the behest of Bill Jordan's wishes. S&W took the venerable K Frame .38 Special and strengthened it for the .357 Magnum. As the decades roled by, S&W also had to change things. But unlike Colt, it was gradual. The Model 19 by 1978 was on it's fourth revision. But things were still good. And with S&W, things were exceptionally good.

They cornered the market. For every Colt Revolver, S&W sold five to ten to Law Enforcement. But Colt still fought it out with their main rival. And in the late 1970s, it was guns like this duking it out. Not the Python or the Model 27. It was the two mainstays of the medium frame duty gun.

The best modern comparison would be the GLOCK versus everyone else. There are just so many competitors in the field now. But back then it was pretty much three. Colt and S&W were the two established rivals with Ruger as the outlier with their Service/Police/Speed Six line. But Ruger was going after S&W, not Colt. Why? Because S&W was the main player. Ruger didn't want to be second place. But that battle heated up in the 1980s.

These two guns represent the classic post war era of police duty guns and my God, am I blessed for having to fine examples of that era. They honestly are equally matched and a fine example of the quality and performance that both were able to produce.

Alas, Colt and S&W are shadows of their former selves and could never reproduce such quality ever again. Those two guns shown and my two in my collection are examples of the bygone era.

The photos are a screen capture from a YouTube video.

I agree with pretty much OPs post, having worked deputy reserve in the late 70s to the very early 90s.  
Having said that, my personal preference (having owned and shot both) is for the 4" versions.  Model 19 4" NIB was my first .357 Magum, bought for the princely sum of $104 and change in `74 IIRC.  Wish I still had it.  I carried a Model 28 and later a 686 while on the department, though.

I have my four inch guns and absolutely love them. But the six inchers are just so much fun.

Growing up, my dad taught me to shoot on a 4" 19 and a 1911. Kinda spoiled me for triggers.

That's why it took until I was almost 30 before I finally bought my first Glock. Just couldn't stand the trigger (at the time).

One question, OP-- did you ever hear about Colts being less durable than S&W? I've read on the Internet that they had finicky internals, but don't have anything to back that up. Just wondering if that reputation came from LE experience.

What did you prefer in the 19 over the 686?

Trooper MKIII's were reputed to be stronger then the S&W counterpart.

Pythons are delicate compared to S&Ws. But  Trooper MkIII amd MkIV are pretty tough guns in my experience.

Before World War 2 the numbers were reversed- Colt owned the police market. After the war S&W had a new president who aggressively went after the police market and by the 70's dominated it.

On 6 inch versions I like the size/weight/balance of the K frame better than the L frame.

By the 1930s, Colt was already losing market share. The S&W Military & Police was just as capable but far more affordable than a comparable Colt. Also S&W offered the .38/44 Heavy Duty and the .357 Registered Magnum. But yes, especially after WWII, they went balls to the wall for the LE market and Colt just got blindsided.

Not in my dad's experience.. he was a st Louis city cop... the firing pin fell out of a colt in a firefight with a burglar...

Smith and Wesson model 28 was purchased the next morning and colts were banned from the house.. a rule i still abide by...

Colt, Smiths...as long as the caliber starts with a “4”.

Attached File

28's are large frame and not K frame/model 19 sized.

It's like comparing a Ruger super redhawk with a ruger GP100.

Dad was Dallas PD for more than 25 years.  Early in his career he dumped the issue Trooper and bought his own Python.  Carried it the rest of his career.  He liked the S&W wheelguns, but he shot the Python incredibly well.

Ah ok, it's the pythons that were delicate.

Troopers are still relatively affordable to pythons, from what I've seen. So in today's market the dainty one is the expensive one...

post 1911, revolvers are completely dumb

Another interesting write up!

Yes, I favor the S&W models, maybe because I was with my Dad when he traded for a brand new Smith Model 15 in 1972. He was proud of that revolver, and being a young man of the Depression era made him ponder a firearm purchase for weeks before he dropped the coin, maybe even months or more. My baby Sis has that gun today.

I do favor my late production Colt Detective Special for concealed carry though, after I found a still NIB example several years ago.

I started carrying a Model 66 I wasn't old enough to buy, my Daddy had to buy my first duty gun.
I worked with guys that carried Colts and guys who carried Smiths.  Smith guys loved their Smiths, the Colt guys always loved their Colts.  
People on the internet talk about them like a K frame would shatter into a million pieces if you fired a dozen or so 357 mag loads in them, simply not true.  I shot K frame magnums with handloads, factory loads, both 38 and 357 and never ever shot one loose.
Back in the day we had to buy our own ammo, and we all carried some form of Super Vels 125 grn or similar magnum load.  Winchester developed Black Talon and most of the guys I worked with switched to those.
Most of us carried a J frame backup, I never saw a Colt Cobra or similar as a backup gun.  They were J frames or sometimes PPKs or similar type small autoloader.  
Long guns were Ithaca and Remington shotguns, M1 Carbines and clones and lever action 30-30s.  
KTW came out with their "armor piercing" ammo and a lot of us carried it either in a speed loader or in the handgun itself in case we had to shoot through a car door (a more popular occurrence then than it is now, shooting at cars didn't really "count" back then)...
L frame guns were heavier and at least around here never as popular as K frames.....

Just some random thoughts on police revolvers "back in the day'

I always heard that it stemmed from easier parts replacement on S&W regarding springs and such, while Colts tended to utilize flat springs that required a bit more manual tuning.

No idea if that's the real deal, or BS.

Colt Police Positives, and Official Police had exposed, unsupported ejector rods.  Smith K frames had supported or covered ejector rods.  Hitting someone in the head was less chancy with a Smith than a Colt.

Pre-model 15 Combat Masterpiece.

Attached File

My academy in '89 was the last one to be issued wheel guns. I carried a S&W Model 65 for about a year and a half until my dad passed down his low serial # Glock 17, (BA-###) to me. I kept the revolver after retirement to pass down to my son.

MiamiJBT - not to open a can of worms, but which action do you prefer?  S&W or Colt (Python type lock and not MK III Trooper).  Asking for a friend.

S&W>Colt

1. Jamming the cylinder release forward versus catching it with a thumb and pulling back seems much easier under pressure

2. I hate the Colt two-stage double action trigger. It's a shame as I love the size of a Detective Special

The Glock of the 70s and 80s was the model 10 4" heavy barrel. Usually loaded with 158gr SWCHP+P.

19s and other 357s were highway patrol guns.

I bet there were 100 model 10s in police holsters for every 19.

My First Duty Weapon 10-6
Attached File

I have three Pythons. They are PHENOMENAL SHOOTERS.

Between the adoption of the from the introduction of the 1911 to the mid 1980s, semiautomatics had a number of issues. Ome of them was ammunition. A quality JHP really didn't exist for thr most part that wouldn't choke a semiautomatic.

@brown424, here's my article on KTW ammo. THE FEAR OF TEFLON COATED AMMO  KTW, WINCHESTER, AND HOLLYWOOD HYPE

What are the differences between the python line and the trooper when it comes to durability?

Tough one.... why Pythons are "delicate". They aren't fragile. The triggers are amazingly smooth. But my Smiths are dsmn good to. They can be slicked up no problem. Honestly, out of them all. My all time favorite is my SF-VI, which is a further advancement of the Trooper MkIII design. The new Cobra and King Cobra are an off shoot of that design. Rugged, soft, and smooth.

But to answer the question, the Python is a better shooter, the Smith is a better duty gun. I love 'em both and I'm glad I don't have to choose one or the other.

There were, and the Model 64 was even doing better. But I'm not discussing the .38 Special here.

The original Troopers had the same lockwork as the Python. The Troopers made before 1969 were Pythons without the polish and heavy ribbed barrel. The Mk III was an economical revolver designed for cheaper production.



Python



Trooper MkIII

The Pythons and pre 1969 Troopers used a bent v leaf springs. The MkIII used a stainless coil spring. The MkIII is simply a more modern design.

@discworld717

Thanks!

DA is better on the S&W.  PPC revolvers are custom rigs, and what percentage are S&W?

I have had many Colts and S&W K frames (my favorite).  The double hand action of a Python, for instance, is smooth.  It just stacks up trigger pressure as the trigger is depressed.  The increasing amount of force required (due to the flat main spring) is something I never shot as well as the S&W DA pull.  I can stage a DA S&W trigger with much less effort and my shooting scores reflected that.

Single action is a different kettle of fish.  If you are talking a stock revolver I can see the SA edge going to Colt (Python) as it had an excellent quality barrel.

I had no problem with the cylinder release on either.

The recessed cylinders on my older K frames were a dubious advantage if anything as they could cause your speed reloads to hang up on the recesses if you were using wadcutters (which you probably were if you were shooting PPC).

As I am a DA shooter I prefer Smiths.  For looks?  Python all day and twice on Sundays.  If I wanted a DA range gun that I almost exclusively shot SA then I would jump ship and buy a Dan Wesson.  There are a lot of reasons they ruled the roost for Silhouette shooting.

I don't have any experience with Ruger DA revolvers outside shooting a few over the years.  I discounted them (perhaps unfairly) as they didn't give me a DA pull I liked.

Sights were a mixed bag.  I hated the red ramp sights that S&W used for years.  I liked a crisp black front sight, but that is obviously just personal preference.  Rear sights on both Colt and S&Ws (adjustable) were fine.

Went through the academy with a revolver[ taurus model 66, I was broke] but started duty with a semi auto. I have only carried a revolver a few times on extra jobs by choice or as a security guard in the very early 90's.

4" 19-4



5" 686-4 ( originally a 6" )

I was one of the last in Dade County to qualify on the revolver in the academy. I smoked the instructors in weapons manipulation.

They were trying to teach the class how to load a revolver with one hand. I showed 'em how it's done. Using the knee to pop open the cylinder, shoving the gun into my pants with the cylinder out, using the speed loader, closing the gun, and engaging the target. They couldn't believe it could be done that fast.

The instructors were former SWAT guys that came onboard during the Wondernine era and were novices when it came to wheel guns. To them, revolvers were just something required by the curriculum since Miami-Dade Corrections still used them. They never really worked with them. They tried to teach a convoluted method like how you'd singly load a semiautomatic. It was hilarious and scary at the same time.

For some reason I shoot Colts a bit better than S&Ws....I know it sounds odd but a Colt seems to shoot "longer" than the barrel length would indicate.

As a example I can shoot a 2" Cobra or DS as well as a 4" S&W. I can't really say that about a 2" K or J-Frame.

I've always considered the Colt Police Positive Special to be the perfect .38 special.

Agreed,

My first DA wheel gun was a model 19-4 6”.  An old timer then gave a sweet heart deal on a 4” python.   While I prefer the lock on the smith the 4” is handier.   My exploration and random deals added a 4” model 28 and a 6” 586.

The N frame is too big for my hand size, the 586 is very good.   The 4” 66 or 19 still seems to be the perfect gun.

Maybe my Internet search foo is messed up but I looked and I couldn't find a current and accurate value on a Nickel Colt Lawman MKIII with a 2" barrel manufactured in 1977 (L stamping).

Does anyone have an idea or a link?

TIA

My knowledge and experience dates from the late 1970s in East Tenn. and southwest Virginia.  S&Ws revolvers ruled.  There were a few Colts (mostly Pythons) and Rugers.  I can't recall seeing anyone carrying a pistol with a 6" barrel.  I recall one Virginia sheriff had a 5" pre-war S&W .38.

In one Virginia town, the mayor ordered 3" S&W Model 36, J-frame revolvers, because she thought the larger pistols looked "mean".  The chief delicately told her that 6-shot revolvers were required to pass the state qualification courses.  Officers continued to carry their K- and N-frame magnums.  The Model 36s were available for off-duty carry.

Unlike most state police/highway patrol agencies, the Virginia State Police never issued .357s.  Most of the revolvers I recall were blue Model 10s.  One older trooper may have carried a Colt  The VSP switched to stainless Model 64s around 1980.  A trooper told me that they the agency tested .357s, but didn't want the "magnum imagine", whatever that was.

I don't have any colts right now but really enjoy them.

I've always heard that they're a stronger action, but a more delicate trigger parts. If that makes sense.

I do love my k frames. Pretty much all I shoot and carry now.

Concur with your assessment.  Pythons do shoot better but Smiths (given the neglect police revolvers are exposed to) make better duty sidearms.  I carried a Smith but mostly a Ruger (most clunky but most rugged of all Rugers).

BTW,  the Smith revolver lockwork you posted is the earlier one with that fabulous tear drop shaped sear.  Very smooth.

It does make sense. But in the end, I have a soft spot for quality wheel guns. Whether they be S&W, Colt, Ruger, DW, or Manurhin.

I have a MKIII Trooper that has seen an estimated 100K rounds of basically hot .38 special loads shooting metal silho.   Never missed a beat.  The trigger has been adjusted so that it will not function as a DA, but that results in a super sweet SA trigger pull.  Far better trigger than my Dan W.

And, I have matching Troopers in 22lr and 22 mag (although the 22 mag is in electo. nickle.)  The 22lr. version of the Trooper with a long barrel is simply a joy to shoot in metal silho.

WTF happened to deep blue? I love that finish, but so many of the modern blued guns just pale in comparison.  Mfger's need to bring back the deep blue.

We made $8400 a year and had to buy everything except the three short sleeve shirts, 3 pair of pants and a bus driver hat the city issued us.  If you wanted long sleeve shirts, a coat, a raincoat you bought that shit yourself.
Back then a Python NIB cost a helluva lot more than a Model 19.  A Python cost more than a months salary.  We coveted Pythons, but I RARELY saw one in a duty holster.   A couple of the guys had Diamondbacks, but if they had a Colt it was likely a Trooper.

@Miami_JBT  Excellent piece of the KTW round.  My partner and I split one of those 12 round packs of 357 KTW rounds cause it seemed like it cost about $20 bucks for the 12 and we only needed 6 each!!

There is an awesome speed loader incident story from my agency in the 80s passed down from folks who were rookies when it happened.

There was a notorious old timer sergeant who acquired several awesome nicknames for his antics, basically the kind of character who would have fit in in the old west, the polar opposite of the people getting hired these days, not necessarily a tactical genius but a salty beat cop.

He was in the habit of placing ammonia inhalant capsules in his speedloaders because he used those to wake up drunks on a routine basis. He responded to an armed robbery and encountered the suspect and they exchanged gunfire. Sarge fired all 6 and went to reload and four out ammonia inhalants don't shoot well.

His radio transmission wasn't "Shots fired!", "Help!", a suspect description, or anything you would expect nowadays, it was a very calm, pissed off, "<call sign>, Someone bring me more ammo up here."

Ultimately, another old timer showed up and punched the guys ticket with one shot from his 6 inch .357.