AR or AK if you are stranded in a jungle for 3 years - Page 5

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR or AK if you are stranded in a jungle for 3 years (Page 5 of 6)

Posted: 2/17/2013 2:50:05 PM EDT

[#1]

12 gauge shotgun with slugs and shot.

Posted: 2/17/2013 2:54:06 PM EDT

[#2]

AK or a shot gun

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:01:26 PM EDT

[#3]

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/machine/mg69/m134d-1.jpg

This ^

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:06:29 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
http://www.epicycle.org.uk/images/minigun2.jpg

This ^

Jesse Ventura Approves....

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:08:25 PM EDT

[#5]

Atlatl for the win.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:13:42 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
WILSON!

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:14:05 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
An AR wouldn't look like that.

The only rust you will get on the AR is the barrel, BCG, and FCG.

Since the BCG is in the receiver, it would protect it from most rust, if its chrome plated
even better.

You would be surprised how long a AR will run with no cleaning.

Free

Quoted:
Sounds like people think the jungle is full of CLP trees and one spot of rust will make an AK explode.
Would an AR in this condition run?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Xe4Ki85kF5E/TGMVF7YHTEI/AAAAAAAAAmM/HBYisBpNExo/s1600/gun+somalia+pirates+mogadishu.jpg

WRONG! Moisture will collect inside that receiver and commence the rusting. Like I said how big a pack do you expect to carry a supply of cleaning chemicals for THREE YEARS in the jungle? Also, in this case you would be better off choosing a grease, since it will not migrate or run off.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:16:02 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
No where did OP specify what country. Hell, HI, FL, E. TN, W. NC, N. ga and even Southern AK are considered "Jungle".

AR.

I am sure most people know that when you are talking jungle you are talking oconus.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:17:35 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
AR. They're reliable. Spent a year in Iraq, never did anything more than knock the crud off and oil it. Never failed.

My AR15's? Never clean them. They never fail.

You ain't going to be able relube it in the jungle.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:18:10 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
AK. Locals are probably using the same ammo, so I could theoretically replenish my ammo if I had to. And hopefully in the jungle you're not shooting too terribly far. Bullets have some heft to em, to boot.

AK74 is the correct answer.

AK74 has no where near the same market penetration as the AK47.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:19:21 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
AR with nitrided barrel. That leaves only a few noncritical pieces to rust. The whole AK is going to rust except for the furniture and chromed surfaces.

And?

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:22:05 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An AR wouldn't look like that.

The only rust you will get on the AR is the barrel, BCG, and FCG.

Since the BCG is in the receiver, it would protect it from most rust, if its chrome plated
even better.

You would be surprised how long a AR will run with no cleaning.

Free

Quoted:
Sounds like people think the jungle is full of CLP trees and one spot of rust will make an AK explode.
Would an AR in this condition run?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Xe4Ki85kF5E/TGMVF7YHTEI/AAAAAAAAAmM/HBYisBpNExo/s1600/gun+somalia+pirates+mogadishu.jpg

WRONG! Moisture will collect inside that receiver and commence the rusting. Like I said how big a pack do you expect to carry a supply of cleaning chemicals for THREE YEARS in the jungle? Also, in this case you would be better off choosing a grease, since it will not migrate or run off.

Check yourself...I think Free knows more than you do..

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:25:28 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Atlatl for the win.

Works for me.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:28:59 PM EDT

[#14]

The whole AK being broke out of the box argument could also be said for AR's. There are some companies that produce better shit than others.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:36:35 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Knowledge of survival techniques, survival gear, and medication would be much more important than choice in rifles. I could manage with either of the weapons.

I will go with this.

I make the assumption it is my weapon and I know its condition, its sighted in and ready to go. Also, if I can carry a few mags I can carry some grease or some CLP. Part of your survival process is to maintain your weapon and keep it in good working order. Those are givens.

Picking one up off the ground or out of someone's hooch is a crap shoot, but both of these are proven weapons so your odds of getting a dud is 50/50 - to me at least, both rifles being equal in basic condition.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:52:29 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An AR wouldn't look like that.

The only rust you will get on the AR is the barrel, BCG, and FCG.

Since the BCG is in the receiver, it would protect it from most rust, if its chrome plated
even better.

You would be surprised how long a AR will run with no cleaning.

Free

Quoted:
Sounds like people think the jungle is full of CLP trees and one spot of rust will make an AK explode.
Would an AR in this condition run?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Xe4Ki85kF5E/TGMVF7YHTEI/AAAAAAAAAmM/HBYisBpNExo/s1600/gun+somalia+pirates+mogadishu.jpg

WRONG! Moisture will collect inside that receiver and commence the rusting. Like I said how big a pack do you expect to carry a supply of cleaning chemicals for THREE YEARS in the jungle? Also, in this case you would be better off choosing a grease, since it will not migrate or run off.

Check yourself...I think Free knows more than you do..

Moisture in a jungle environment will penetrate "sealed" electronics, do you actually believe that a chamber that is not "sealed" will block of the moisture in the air. Chrome and oil are the only protection and oil tends to migrate and wear off as does chrome. As for the chrome unless you have chromed every part of the BCG you will get rust.

Unless you are pull BCG and wiping it down with CLP on a regular basis you are going to have moisture collecting inside the chamber. Which goes back to my original points, just how much CLP are you intending to carry around for three years.

Posted: 2/17/2013 3:56:34 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
With no cleaning supplies: AK

With a bottle of CLP And a cleaning kit: AR

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:14:22 PM EDT

[#18]

frankly, I would feel comfortable with either an AR or AK

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:20:54 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An AR wouldn't look like that.

The only rust you will get on the AR is the barrel, BCG, and FCG.

Since the BCG is in the receiver, it would protect it from most rust, if its chrome plated
even better.

You would be surprised how long a AR will run with no cleaning.

Free

Quoted:
Sounds like people think the jungle is full of CLP trees and one spot of rust will make an AK explode.
Would an AR in this condition run?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Xe4Ki85kF5E/TGMVF7YHTEI/AAAAAAAAAmM/HBYisBpNExo/s1600/gun+somalia+pirates+mogadishu.jpg

WRONG! Moisture will collect inside that receiver and commence the rusting. Like I said how big a pack do you expect to carry a supply of cleaning chemicals for THREE YEARS in the jungle? Also, in this case you would be better off choosing a grease, since it will not migrate or run off.

Check yourself...I think Free knows more than you do..

Moisture in a jungle environment will penetrate "sealed" electronics, do you actually believe that a chamber that is not "sealed" will block of the moisture in the air. Chrome and oil are the only protection and oil tends to migrate and wear off as does chrome. As for the chrome unless you have chromed every part of the BCG you will get rust.

Unless you are pull BCG and wiping it down with CLP on a regular basis you are going to have moisture collecting inside the chamber. Which goes back to my original points, just how much CLP are you intending to carry around for three years.

rock on, I am sure you got more jungle experience than free and I do.....

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:22:20 PM EDT

[#20]

What about one of those gold plated AKs third world dictators love so much?

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:24:04 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
What about one of those gold plated AKs third world dictators love so much?

Platinum would be better as it is impervious to all the elements on the periodic table

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:28:24 PM EDT

[#22]

In all my research regarding the Vietnam War and the secret war that MACV-SOG waged against the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I've made quite a few friends who ran recon in SOG. These guys had a massive weapons library in which to equip their teams. 95% of these guys rolled with CAR-15s.

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:28:28 PM EDT

[#23]

Quick note to all of you choosing AK on ammo scavenging capability. If you kill a bad guy and can take his ammo, you can take his rifle, too, so that is a wash.

I wonder how an AR would do if lubed with animal fat? Vegetable oil (although I would not know how to extract/process it)?

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:31:58 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
In all my research regarding the Vietnam War and the secret war that MACV-SOG waged against the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I've made quite a few friends who ran recon in SOG. These guys had a massive weapons library in which to equip their teams. 95% of these guys rolled with CAR-15s.

Some civvie couch commando will be along shortly to tell us how they were all stupid for this...

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:41:08 PM EDT

[#25]

I have had just a couple problems that were quickly remedied with my ARs. The only problem I had with an AK was while bump firing a 74. From my own personal experience I would want an AK74 but wouldn't be pissed if an AR was my only option. I am a range shooter and have no military experience.

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:44:14 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
In all my research regarding the Vietnam War and the secret war that MACV-SOG waged against the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I've made quite a few friends who ran recon in SOG. These guys had a massive weapons library in which to equip their teams. 95% of these guys rolled with CAR-15s.

What I had seen is that the SF guys loved the new rifle but they also cleaned and lubed them. It was the whole no cleaning kit required/bad powder thing that ruined the M16s reputation.

AK still wins

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:48:13 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
In all my research regarding the Vietnam War and the secret war that MACV-SOG waged against the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I've made quite a few friends who ran recon in SOG. These guys had a massive weapons library in which to equip their teams. 95% of these guys rolled with CAR-15s.

Some civvie couch commando will be along shortly to tell us how they were all stupid for this...

You're so stupid.

SCAR FTW

^joke

Posted: 2/17/2013 4:54:51 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In all my research regarding the Vietnam War and the secret war that MACV-SOG waged against the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I've made quite a few friends who ran recon in SOG. These guys had a massive weapons library in which to equip their teams. 95% of these guys rolled with CAR-15s.

Some civvie couch commando will be along shortly to tell us how they were all stupid for this...

You're so stupid.
SCAR FTW

^joke

My head almost 'sploded.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:05:16 PM EDT

[#29]

Damn it! WE ARE AFRCOM!

Quoted:

BOTH

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:07:40 PM EDT

[#30]

I'll take both just to be on the safe side of things

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:09:04 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
In all my research regarding the Vietnam War and the secret war that MACV-SOG waged against the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I've made quite a few friends who ran recon in SOG. These guys had a massive weapons library in which to equip their teams. 95% of these guys rolled with CAR-15s.

Some civvie couch commando will be along shortly to tell us how they were all stupid for this...

You're so stupid.

SCAR FTW

^joke

My head almost 'sploded.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:10:46 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
With no cleaning supplies: AK

With a bottle of CLP And a cleaning kit: AR

How large is the pack you intend to take those cleaning supplies in? Or do you have a tactical wheel barrow on order.

My vote is for an AK.

a man's gotta eat, and if your eating animals, you can render oil.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:12:22 PM EDT

[#33]

AR and a shovel.

When the AR breaks, make AK from shovel

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:13:39 PM EDT

[#34]

You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants. You could clean the bore of either rifle with your shoelace and a piece of your shirt. Both could be wiped down to be free of carbon. But only the AK would actually work after a three year stint in the jungle so not sure why this is even being debated. Plus the traditional AKM would serve better for that type of environment with the heavier round and close in type shooting of game.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:19:36 PM EDT

[#35]

AK. Being as this is a jungle and there is a lot of brush I want a bigger round that can cut through it and still kill my target. Jungles are also pretty humid and I would want a weapon that isn't affected by humidity. Wet dirt and mud would also bind up actions which is bad so I want something with loose tolerances as well. Easy choice in the situation.

However I would take my piston AR if I couldn't take an AK.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:37:42 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
AK. Being as this is a jungle and there is a lot of brush I want a bigger round that can cut through it and still kill my target. Jungles are also pretty humid and I would want a weapon that isn't affected by humidity. Wet dirt and mud would also bind up actions which is bad so I want something with loose tolerances as well. Easy choice in the situation.

However I would take my piston AR if I couldn't take an AK.

Another couch commando.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:47:19 PM EDT

[#37]

i would take a pump shotgun because of the simplicity and the wide range of ammo. I could use bird shot for killing smaller game and pest control, i could use slugs for killing larger game/predators at longer range and could use 00 Buck for close range protection,.

A Rem 870 Police Magnum would be my pick.

Posted: 2/17/2013 5:55:32 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
i would take a pump shotgun because of the simplicity and the wide range of ammo. I could use bird shot for killing smaller game and pest control, i could use slugs for killing larger game/predators at longer range and could use 00 Buck for close range protection,.

A Rem 870 Police Magnum would be my pick.

How well does the shotgun shell hold up in a continuously moist environment? I have seen many people mention the shotgun and I know from some reading and conversations that they are fairly popular in some of the South American countries, but I don't know if it if function or legality that makes it so. I know from my own Remington Slugger shells are what you would consider sealed, but how well do other rounds hold up over an extended period.

Posted: 2/17/2013 6:58:32 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants. You could clean the bore of either rifle with your shoelace and a piece of your shirt. Both could be wiped down to be free of carbon. But only the AK would actually work after a three year stint in the jungle so not sure why this is even being debated. Plus the traditional AKM would serve better for that type of environment with the heavier round and close in type shooting of game.

...because cheap Russian steel won't rust where American steel will? What special lubricants do you think an AR needs?

I am guessing you aren't a chemist or a metallurgist.

Posted: 2/17/2013 7:00:33 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i would take a pump shotgun because of the simplicity and the wide range of ammo. I could use bird shot for killing smaller game and pest control, i could use slugs for killing larger game/predators at longer range and could use 00 Buck for close range protection,.

A Rem 870 Police Magnum would be my pick.

How well does the shotgun shell hold up in a continuously moist environment? I have seen many people mention the shotgun and I know from some reading and conversations that they are fairly popular in some of the South American countries, but I don't know if it if function or legality that makes it so. I know from my own Remington Slugger shells are what you would consider sealed, but how well do other rounds hold up over an extended period.

Partially because of this:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1437924_Folks_on_a_place_called_AR15_com_using_shotgun_for_home_defense__IDIOCY_.html

...and it would be good for hunting food.

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:14:10 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants.....

A quality AR will fire about a thousand rounds dry, without cleaning, before needing lube.

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:36:14 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants.....

A quality AR will fire about a thousand rounds dry, without cleaning, before needing lube.

In what kind of environment? If we are talking about the local range or a fairly dry temperate climate we are discussing complete different environmental scenarios.

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:39:57 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants.....

A quality AR will fire about a thousand rounds dry, without cleaning, before needing lube.

In what kind of environment? If we are talking about the local range or a fairly dry temperate climate we are discussing complete different environmental scenarios.

I fairly routinely oil my gun with a dipstick. Oil is oil, as long as it is on the operating surfaces. Hell, some dudes have run carbine courses with ARs lubed with Vagisil.

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:44:47 PM EDT

[#44]

A lot of people here haven't carried an AK for an extended period of time. The ergonomics flat-out suck, in every way possible, with the sole exception of the balance point over the magazine, and even that is a bad technique to use.
AK's require the same maintenance an AR will, though depending on your point of view one might be easier to strip/clean than the other; to me it's a toss-up.

Once again, the AK47 is not Mikhail Kalashnikov's gift to the Russian people on behalf of God (well, maybe it is, but...). It has problems just like every other rifle, and every other piece of equipment or machinery designed by men (and women, especially!

).
The idea that because everyone knows their uncle's friend that threw his M16 away and picked up an AK in 'Nam means the AK is the unbreakable and stone-cold reliable is stupid. They fuck-up just as much as an AR, and when they fuck up, they fuck up big time. The only good thing is that they have a charging handle big enough to be stomped on (not a practice endorsed by me!). The bad thing is that the fucked-up safety means that when the boot heel slides off the handle and hits the trigger the round goes through the user's leg and lower body (never actually happened, but always imagined it would sooner or later).

The AK was designed, built and used by the lowest common denominator all around the world for seventy years. That doesn't mean it's the end all, be all that American pop-culture thinks it is.

TL,DR: They belong in the trash can. Give me an AR. Better yet for that scenario, give me a Para FAL or bolt gun. I read somewhere that Larry Thorne preferred a K98 in similar conditions...

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:45:41 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants.....

A quality AR will fire about a thousand rounds dry, without cleaning, before needing lube.

In what kind of environment? If we are talking about the local range or a fairly dry temperate climate we are discussing complete different environmental scenarios.

I fairly routinely oil my gun with a dipstick. Oil is oil, as long as it is on the operating surfaces. Hell, some dudes have run carbine courses with ARs lubed with Vagisil.

You do that was a joke right? The bottle did not actual hold Vagoil.

As to the point in a temperate climate you can run an AR with a few drops of oil, but in a jungle environment it will need more lubrication. If were talking about temperate conditions with wide open fields like in MT or Wyoming I am pretty sure if given a choice between an AR running an optic or an AK with an optic almost everyone would choose the AR (as long as it was not a cobble job of parts from some no name guy.)

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:46:58 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
With no cleaning supplies: AK

With a bottle of CLP And a cleaning kit: AR

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:47:02 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants.....

A quality AR will fire about a thousand rounds dry, without cleaning, before needing lube.

In what kind of environment? If we are talking about the local range or a fairly dry temperate climate we are discussing complete different environmental scenarios.

I fairly routinely oil my gun with a dipstick. Oil is oil, as long as it is on the operating surfaces. Hell, some dudes have run carbine courses with ARs lubed with Vagisil.

You do that was a joke right? The bottle did not actual hold Vagoil.

As to the point in a temperate climate you can run an AR with a few drops of oil, but in a jungle environment it will need more lubrication. If were talking about temperate conditions with wide open fields like in MT or Wyoming I am pretty sure if given a choice between an AR running an optic or an AK with an optic almost everyone would choose the AR (as long as it was not a cobble job of parts from some no name guy.)

No I didn't

Posted: 2/17/2013 8:51:46 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could make grease from animal fat, that could easily be used to coat your AK and keep it from Rusting or at least keep it in working order. The same can't be said for an AR as AR's need special lubricants.....

A quality AR will fire about a thousand rounds dry, without cleaning, before needing lube.

In what kind of environment? If we are talking about the local range or a fairly dry temperate climate we are discussing complete different environmental scenarios.

I fairly routinely oil my gun with a dipstick. Oil is oil, as long as it is on the operating surfaces. Hell, some dudes have run carbine courses with ARs lubed with Vagisil.[img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif[/img]

Holy Stribeck curves batman...