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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:43:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I worked for a chief that said he would stop before the finish line of the run until his time put him under 90 because he knew that if he didn't have to test for a year he'd have trouble motivating himself to go to the gym. I have heard from other services that the USAF test is not hard to pass but very hard to do very well at. The waist size kills the other services from what I understand. That is saying something because the USAF gyms are full of thick people. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:43:57 PM EDT
[#2]
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I'm trying to come up with ways this program would be possible for everyone, not just retirees and single guys with no career. I would love to participate if this program gets off it's feet, but be honest.. there needs to be time flexibility for us regular guys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I think you have the wrong idea. I'm not knocking the battle buddy premise, but the "training" structure. Most of us have 9-5 jobs, families and a lot of other things that take precedent when considering new hobbies/ventures. The time constraints have us woefully low on the ability to jumpstart into a "Adult Boy Scouts" type of hobby, as great as it would be. Super structured, practice-involved and a ridged curriculum is fine when you dont have much else to do in your free time. Most of us have a couple minutes here or there at best. I think a better way to go about training would be to emphasize informal gee-wizz mentoring and guidance. Most adults don't have enough time and mental bandwidth to devote to a highly structured curriculum. Not trying to be a negative nancy, don't take it that way.. I'm just saying you may have better success with recruiting by being more flexible. Careers, wives, kids... all that eat away what little free time adults have. I love your concept though If you're not wanting to participate, great, leave these threads to those that are interested. We can all come up with excuses not to do this and those of us that are willing to put in the effort will. I would love to participate if this program gets off it's feet, but be honest.. there needs to be time flexibility for us regular guys. But the beauty of this is that you aren't required to participate in anything, and you are encouraged to grab 2 or more folks last minute and come up with whatever extra stuff to do. Right now we are in the crawl phase- get folks moving, get some level of organization, and mapping out the way forward. For flexibility, the sky is the limit! |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:44:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm generally opposed to stuff shot at less than 200 yards being acceptable, and hesitant and with reservation think it is acceptable at the 200 yard range with reduced targets even. This is because a big part of it is learning to shoot in the wind- at 100 and less yard ranges, wind has so little effect that people don't really need to read and adjust for it at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
@Ben what are your thoughts about allowing achievement of Rifleman score at an Appleseed event to qualify for 2nd class/1st Class? If verified by an Appleseed instructor, of course. The course of fire is modeled after NRA high-power course of fire. This is because a big part of it is learning to shoot in the wind- at 100 and less yard ranges, wind has so little effect that people don't really need to read and adjust for it at all. Unless you want that requirement to be a show-stopper for the vast majority of people, who don't progress past 2nd Class/1st Class, I suggest you have a 100yd minimum range for the 2nd Class and 1st Class NRA/CMP match requirement, and develop an actual-distance match requirement for higher ratings. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:45:12 PM EDT
[#4]
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Yeah, but without an allowance for height and general build a simple measurement of the waist is nowhere near a fair criteria across the board. My waist is a solid 40”, but I’m 6’3” and my chest is 49”, bf% is well within healthy ranges. Myself and guys like me get an automatic zero on that portion just for being larger than normal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You don't have a pinch test, only a waist size. That is easy to measure. One thing that makes it odd with scoring is you can meet the mins in every category but still not pass the test. The other metrics are pretty standard. The reason the USAF put that in the test is due to a direct relationship between waist size and heart disease. That's the kind of guy I want on my side. Thanks Redbirdxx! |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:46:26 PM EDT
[#5]
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Yep, that's me. I'd barely pass. (Old distance runner) I haven't kept up on my sit ups (used to be a stud there) and NEVER really worked on pushups. (Even at peak, I just didn't train my upper body other than small weights to drive the arms) I get your point. I failed pushups and situps in the Navy test, but can still rock low 8 minute miles as a pack a day smoker. I'm working on it. Gets me every year at CWE with the obstacles largely being upper body strength based. Running sucks |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:49:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck keeping the numbers low for the sake of foolish pride.  And fuck insulting people for not meeting some fairly demanding arbitrary criteria. We should be trying to find ways such folks can meaningfully contribute & participate, if we want the group to go anywhere, not driving them away.
Maybe the elite ranks should bear that level of exclusivity, but not the loyal dregs who form the base population. To use the Scouting simile, it'd be like requiring fresh Webelos to already be qualified for Eagle, just to sign up. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:56:23 PM EDT
[#7]
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Yes. No one should be intentionally alienated for lack of time or desire to chase qualifications. The whole rating system is meant solely to allow people to at a glance know that barnbwt can reliably do X. There is a reason every individual requirement for a given rating can basically be accomplished in a single day of a month. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Fuck keeping the numbers low for the sake of foolish pride. And fuck insulting people for not meeting some fairly demanding arbitrary criteria. We should be trying to find ways such folks can meaningfully contribute & participate, if we want the group to go anywhere, not driving them away.
Maybe the elite ranks should bear that level of exclusivity, but not the loyal dregs who form the base population. To use the Scouting simile, it'd be like requiring fresh Webelos to already be qualified for Eagle, just to sign up. 
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Posted: 2/4/2020 9:59:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, but without an allowance for height and general build a simple measurement of the waist is nowhere near a fair criteria across the board. My waist is a solid 40”, but I’m 6’3” and my chest is 49”, bf% is well within healthy ranges. Myself and guys like me get an automatic zero on that portion just for being larger than normal. At least they don't have the stupid bike test anymore. I raced a bike like Lance Armstrong and got invalids and fails for years. I was finally waivered when I went to my commander after a fail with two Grand Canyon State Games cycling medals around my neck to argue my test scores with my flight chief. Not long after that the USAF dropped that BS test. Back to BB info. Sorry Ben. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:01:01 PM EDT
[#9]
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I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. My wife and kids and I all did the new army test two years ago with the shuttle runs, sled drags, dead lifts, etc and topped off with a 2 mile run. The run was terrible for me, I really struggled to get on the struggle bus and struggled across the finish line. But I maxed out every single aspect other than that. Running sucks Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yep, that's me. I'd barely pass. (Old distance runner) I haven't kept up on my sit ups (used to be a stud there) and NEVER really worked on pushups. (Even at peak, I just didn't train my upper body other than small weights to drive the arms) I get your point. I failed pushups and situps in the Navy test, but can still rock low 8 minute miles as a pack a day smoker. I'm working on it. Gets me every year at CWE with the obstacles largely being upper body strength based. Running sucks You can run better right now. (Or maybe I have it ass backwards and the mental discipline for running takes forever and building muscle is easy, who knows ) |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:27:12 PM EDT
[#10]
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You're actually in a great position. Building muscle takes time. Running is almost entirely mental. You can run better right now. (Or maybe I have it ass backwards and the mental discipline for running takes forever and building muscle is easy, who knows ) It’s far more mental than people will admit, just taking 45 minutes a day can completely change your life and health. I have 7 kids and run my own business, I can afford a few hours a week. It’s important. Battle buddies- no excuses, just progress. |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 10:47:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you asked a question, sent me a PM, or an email, in the last week or so- please forgive me. I've been out of service somewhere isolated due to work, and came back to 1800+ missed PMs and emails from ARFCOM alone. Sorry if I don't reach back to you individually...I'll try and play catchup. Big update to this thread OP in next few days. 
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Posted: 2/5/2020 12:06:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually I’m strong, but got no lungs due to a propane explosion 19 years ago in May. I can’t walk around and talk on the phone without getting winded, but I will still finish the runs under the specified time. I’ve been off pain killers for two days now so I’m headed out in the morning for my first hike, I’ll just do 3 miles with the plate carrier because we just got a foot of snow and it will be about 10 degrees in the morning. It’s far more mental than people will admit, just taking 45 minutes a day can completely change your life and health. I have 7 kids and run my own business, I can afford a few hours a week. It’s important. Battle buddies- no excuses, just progress. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're actually in a great position. Building muscle takes time. Running is almost entirely mental. You can run better right now. (Or maybe I have it ass backwards and the mental discipline for running takes forever and building muscle is easy, who knows ) It’s far more mental than people will admit, just taking 45 minutes a day can completely change your life and health. I have 7 kids and run my own business, I can afford a few hours a week. It’s important. Battle buddies- no excuses, just progress.
Stud |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 1:10:58 AM EDT
[#13]
I think the requirement that the rifle match be shot at longer distances is a good idea. I don’t have easy access to any matches like these, and I’ve never shot one (other than USMC rifle qual which is actually pretty similar), but I’m okay with the idea of having to travel to find one. If simply not having easy enough access to this kind of match is enough of a problem for people that they choose to stagnate rather than put in the work to find a long range match and develop the skill to shoot it well, I think it’s appropriate that they stay at a lower rating.
I’m not trying to be a jerk. I just want standards to be set high and maintained. They should be challenging to achieve, and exceptions and substitutions should be kept to an absolute minimum if not disallowed entirely. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 1:16:56 AM EDT
[#14]
O.S.T.
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Posted: 2/5/2020 7:22:24 AM EDT
[#15]
@Ben
We talked about this in Houston last night at our hometown meetup & there was plenty of interest. Any ABB/APC guidelines typed up you could email to me? Also any recommended training manuals for land nav etc., etc.? Also there are BB events planned near Austin this month. I'm excited about the effort going and want to be involved. Bishop3 |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 8:08:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the requirement that the rifle match be shot at longer distances is a good idea. I don’t have easy access to any matches like these, and I’ve never shot one (other than USMC rifle qual which is actually pretty similar), but I’m okay with the idea of having to travel to find one. If simply not having easy enough access to this kind of match is enough of a problem for people that they choose to stagnate rather than put in the work to find a long range match and develop the skill to shoot it well, I think it’s appropriate that they stay at a lower rating. I’m not trying to be a jerk. I just want standards to be set high and maintained. They should be challenging to achieve, and exceptions and substitutions should be kept to an absolute minimum if not disallowed entirely. That's why my suggestion is to have shooting a highpower match at 100 yards at reduced scale targets as the entry-level qualification, and require shooting out to 400 yards as a higher-level qualification. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 9:13:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I get that, but as someone who has been a rifle instructor since the early 2000s, I can tell you that a great many people with rifles have never shot position and have never shot off the bench. I've seen a lotta guys who have pie-plate size groups off the bench at 100 yards and think that's great. So you have to use a "crawl, then walk, then run" approach. Getting people off the bench and shooting position at 100 yards can be a huge feat in itself. Getting them off the bench and shooting position out to 400 yards will be enough to deter people from even trying. The better practice is to first get them shooting in position to 100 yards, then later add the wind techniques. That's why my suggestion is to have shooting a highpower match at 100 yards at reduced scale targets as the entry-level qualification, and require shooting out to 400 yards as a higher-level qualification. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 9:15:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also there are BB events planned near Austin this month. I'm excited about the effort going and want to be involved. Bishop3 https://www.ar15.com/forums/Hometown/Austin-Area-Battle-Buddies-HIKE-FEB-23-MCKINNEY-ROUGHS/8-640371/ |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 10:43:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the rating system appeals to people who want to set and meet goals as a team -- without a sense of "I'm better than you." Which is why you call them ratings not rankings, correct? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Fuck keeping the numbers low for the sake of foolish pride. And fuck insulting people for not meeting some fairly demanding arbitrary criteria. We should be trying to find ways such folks can meaningfully contribute & participate, if we want the group to go anywhere, not driving them away.
Maybe the elite ranks should bear that level of exclusivity, but not the loyal dregs who form the base population. To use the Scouting simile, it'd be like requiring fresh Webelos to already be qualified for Eagle, just to sign up. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 12:44:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That, and the fact that even the "leader" ratings is not indicative of a position of authority or any kind of following, just that they have demonstrated the ability to take on such if necessary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Fuck keeping the numbers low for the sake of foolish pride. And fuck insulting people for not meeting some fairly demanding arbitrary criteria. We should be trying to find ways such folks can meaningfully contribute & participate, if we want the group to go anywhere, not driving them away.
Maybe the elite ranks should bear that level of exclusivity, but not the loyal dregs who form the base population. To use the Scouting simile, it'd be like requiring fresh Webelos to already be qualified for Eagle, just to sign up. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 2:09:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That, and the fact that even the "leader" ratings is not indicative of a position of authority or any kind of following, just that they have demonstrated the ability to take on such if necessary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Fuck keeping the numbers low for the sake of foolish pride. And fuck insulting people for not meeting some fairly demanding arbitrary criteria. We should be trying to find ways such folks can meaningfully contribute & participate, if we want the group to go anywhere, not driving them away.
Maybe the elite ranks should bear that level of exclusivity, but not the loyal dregs who form the base population. To use the Scouting simile, it'd be like requiring fresh Webelos to already be qualified for Eagle, just to sign up. |
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Posted: 2/6/2020 12:37:31 PM EDT
[#22]
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@sherrick13 I'm planning a hike at Arcadia Lake if you want to join me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I like this. If there is ever an OK chapter and I get a chance to hike, I'm going to. I'm planning a hike at Arcadia Lake if you want to join me. That's a great idea, and I'd like to have more info- please pm me! (I live near East OKC) |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 6:56:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Minimum weight for long gun to qualify on a ruck? They come pretty small these days.
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Posted: 2/8/2020 7:21:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Minimum weight for long gun to qualify on a ruck? They come pretty small these days. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 7:31:23 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I often carry a very light Mk18...so...let the cricket on your shoulder be your guide on that one. It should be functional as a fighting rifle, but the weight was intentionally left out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Minimum weight for long gun to qualify on a ruck? They come pretty small these days. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 8:51:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In terms of difficulty 1 lb carried in your hands is worth at least 2 in your pack IMO. |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 11:45:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Battle Buddies! We now have Battle Buddy Groups in half of the U.S. states!
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Posted: 2/9/2020 11:55:19 AM EDT
[#28]
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Battle Buddies! We now have Battle Buddy Groups in half of the U.S. states! https://i.ibb.co/N6L7Vxb/APC-as-of-09-FEB2020.jpg 
I didn't know there was a Maine Battle Buddies. I feel like they need at least two syllables to be typed all in caps though. OKLAHOMA BATTLE BUDDIES! See that works awesome. INDIANA BATTLE BUDDIES! TEXAS BATTLE BUDDIES! Maine battle buddies. It just needs an extra syllable for yelling |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 12:05:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't know there was a Maine Battle Buddies. I feel like they need at least two syllables to be typed all in caps though. OKLAHOMA BATTLE BUDDIES! See that works awesome. INDIANA BATTLE BUDDIES! TEXAS BATTLE BUDDIES! Maine battle buddies. It just needs an extra syllable for yelling Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Battle Buddies! We now have Battle Buddy Groups in half of the U.S. states! https://i.ibb.co/N6L7Vxb/APC-as-of-09-FEB2020.jpg
I didn't know there was a Maine Battle Buddies. I feel like they need at least two syllables to be typed all in caps though. OKLAHOMA BATTLE BUDDIES! See that works awesome. INDIANA BATTLE BUDDIES! TEXAS BATTLE BUDDIES! Maine battle buddies. It just needs an extra syllable for yelling ETA: 
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Posted: 2/9/2020 12:07:59 PM EDT
[#30]
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Pine Tree State Battle Buddies ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Battle Buddies! We now have Battle Buddy Groups in half of the U.S. states! https://i.ibb.co/N6L7Vxb/APC-as-of-09-FEB2020.jpg
I didn't know there was a Maine Battle Buddies. I feel like they need at least two syllables to be typed all in caps though. OKLAHOMA BATTLE BUDDIES! See that works awesome. INDIANA BATTLE BUDDIES! TEXAS BATTLE BUDDIES! Maine battle buddies. It just needs an extra syllable for yelling
That definitely works. PINE TREE STATE BATTLE BUDDIES |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 3:16:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Battle Buddies! We now have Battle Buddy Groups in half of the U.S. states! https://i.ibb.co/N6L7Vxb/APC-as-of-09-FEB2020.jpg |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 5:18:09 PM EDT
[#32]
You better be fit and strong, here is an avg dude and sammich maker 5 mile flat hike unloaded. We are healthy/active people and not overweight etc. we hike often with some hikes going up to 10 miles in rugged terrain.
 Attached File@Ben have folks made witnessed hikes for time and reported results. That shit won't be easy folks. I had unrealistic expectations because I am damn fit. You better be strong and cardio fit people. I hike some rugged terrain often and did double this just 3 weeks ago.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 7:33:19 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 2/9/2020 7:35:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was the Prince William Forest hike yesterday. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/181794/PWForest_JPG-1270366.JPG |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 7:38:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Illinois hike last weekend, we were all carrying at least 35lbs. and most of us were over 45lbs.
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Posted: 2/9/2020 9:12:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Illinois hike last weekend, we were all carrying at least 35lbs. and most of us were over 45lbs. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/461668/21AFF3D8-8D5A-4EAF-BD2A-0B7F74624493_jpe-1270385.JPG |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 9:13:09 PM EDT
[#37]
I was on that Illinois hike. You can see that there was some pavement worked in there and that helped us get ahead a bit. We were keeping pace in the woods but just barely. The flatness of Illinois works to our advantage in that regard. 3mph is an ambitious pace, especially over any real terrain. I agree that these standards aren't exactly easy and it's gonna take some work to meet them. I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Posted: 2/9/2020 9:19:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That gets it. What App? And yeah, it was rough in the woods. I think the conditions had as much to to with that as the terrain. Slippery mud, ice and slushy snow. The whole three miles in that would have been a close thing. After that finishing up on the pavement was kinda like going for a nice stroll. |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 9:19:44 PM EDT
[#39]
I need 2 guys in Alabama to get this done.
I have been posting in the Alabama Hometown w/o any luck. |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 10:52:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Is there an email address or other point of contact for people who are interested but who are not on the forums?
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Posted: 2/9/2020 11:11:20 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doesn’t appear to make the time either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This was the Prince William Forest hike yesterday. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/181794/PWForest_JPG-1270366.JPG |
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Posted: 2/9/2020 11:12:37 PM EDT
[#42]
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Is there an email address or other point of contact for people who are interested but who are not on the forums? |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 12:15:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I spent this morning building a website. Give me another couple days. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is there an email address or other point of contact for people who are interested but who are not on the forums? 
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:04:56 PM EDT
[#44]
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You better be fit and strong...  Attached FileYeah, it’s IL and flat, but it was in single digits with the wind chill and we were slogging through snow. Oh, average age was ~49. Get out there and do this, people, it ain’t that hard. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:10:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Tag
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:11:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Passed my Tech exam today.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:21:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Congrats.... Now get out and play on some repeaters so u get a better understanding of how things work and get some practice using the radio.... again, congrats. How long did u study?
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:47:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You better be fit and strong, here is an avg dude and sammich maker 5 mile flat hike unloaded. We are healthy/active people and not overweight etc. we hike often with some hikes going up to 10 miles in rugged terrain. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/255381/IMG_1420_PNG-1270199.JPG @Ben have folks made witnessed hikes for time and reported results. That shit won't be easy folks. I had unrealistic expectations because I am damn fit. You better be strong and cardio fit people. I hike some rugged terrain often and did double this just 3 weeks ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/255381/57219D88-3CB9-4B14-A53B-C4C592AD0AB4_png-1270301.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/255381/3DA854B6-7EC7-4CD2-982D-4C891AD6B1C8_png-1270303.JPG I think you miss the point...we're looking for people who are NOT fit and strong but WANT to GET fit and strong....by necessity, this means that we welcome people of all skill levels who are looking to better themselves and move from being unfit to very fit. It's a process and everyone starts somewhere. Good on Ben and their group for taking people of various skill levels and helping those folks get fitter so that eventually they make time. Today would have been just as great if I had not made the time because it was the first time that I was out hiking with that much weight. At the start of the hike, I only gave myself a 50/50 chance of making it. Thanks to the guys that I was hiking with, we all made it. It was a great day, but the point is not the quals...the point is just to get out and network, meet like minded people and get fit.....the quals are just icing on the cake. |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 12:08:34 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Congrats.... Now get out and play on some repeaters so u get a better understanding of how things work and get some practice using the radio.... again, congrats. How long did u study? |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 9:30:27 AM EDT
[#50]
@Ben
Just to keep things official. Illinois Battle Boys 3rd Class Qual 1st 6 mile hike Date: 2/15/20 Locale: Springboork Prairie Naperville Il Dist: 6 miles Time:1:50:39 Avg Spd 3.3 45 pound or heavier pack (weighted on scale in front of each other) Members that made the qual hike: Slarti SleepingBirdDog TheRadBaron Redbirdxx |
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