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Posted: 8/25/2013 6:22:12 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the wrong way to look at these things. If everyone acted like this, what incentives would they have to not market exclusively to JBTs and JBT lovers? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Even if they fire Monroe. They will never see one cent of my money. That's the wrong way to look at these things. If everyone acted like this, what incentives would they have to not market exclusively to JBTs and JBT lovers? While I agree with you, I'm not so sure this is about enticing them anymore. They made their decision. Anything they say now will be met with skepticism, and will make me think they simply will be more careful about releasing things, not that their core beliefs have changed. |
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Posted: 8/25/2013 6:46:53 PM EST
[#2]
These Troy threads need to continue.
This does not need to die and the dust does not need to settle. New people come along every day and in just a few short weeks this will be out of sight if we let it. We will remember it but new customers are innocently ignorant. It is our job to make them aware. Forever. |
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Posted: 8/25/2013 7:01:07 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These Troy threads need to continue. This does not need to die and the dust does not need to settle. New people come along every day and in just a few short weeks this will be out of sight if we let it. We will remember it but new customers are innocently ignorant. It is our job to make them aware. Forever.  |
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Posted: 8/25/2013 7:10:43 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8856 [div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-size: 12px; line-height: 2.2em; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246);'][div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none;']heresthedeal on August 25, 2013 at 5:58 pm said: [div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246);']Boo Hoo, Troy hired this guy, Troy fired that guy. Wake up Arfcom !! You got a site staff member stretching out his 15 minutes of fame after he worked for BW on a "no bid / no vetting” contract for the last 8 years. Then you got the moderator who’s only contribution to the net is sucking off Vickers until he got kicked to the curb on M4C. Now he is pimping Jerk Fast Miss Big Green to anybody that will give him the time of day. Next he is due to suck off David Bowie so he can get some free pants. Barfcom is the laughing stock of the boards as long as they have "been no where overseas – done nothing” guys running the show. Suck it !!! I bet EdSr. is not amused. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Theres a linked article about J-Fled being thrown under the buss by Troy and in the comments there appears to be a disgruntled (former) Arfcomer. haha. [div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-size: 12px; line-height: 2.2em; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246);'][div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none;']heresthedeal on August 25, 2013 at 5:58 pm said: [div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246);']Boo Hoo, Troy hired this guy, Troy fired that guy. Wake up Arfcom !! You got a site staff member stretching out his 15 minutes of fame after he worked for BW on a "no bid / no vetting” contract for the last 8 years. Then you got the moderator who’s only contribution to the net is sucking off Vickers until he got kicked to the curb on M4C. Now he is pimping Jerk Fast Miss Big Green to anybody that will give him the time of day. Next he is due to suck off David Bowie so he can get some free pants. Barfcom is the laughing stock of the boards as long as they have "been no where overseas – done nothing” guys running the show. Suck it !!! I bet EdSr. is not amused. Steve Troy couldn't shine Ed Sr's shoes with a fucking Top Dollar Shoe Shine Kit. Ed is a man of honor, integrity, and morals, and I'm not saying that for "Brownie Points" either. I have spoken to the man several times on the phone and I have met him. Trying to compare Troy to Ed Sr. doesn't even register on the same meter. |
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Posted: 8/25/2013 7:27:22 PM EST
[#5]
Those new Magpul MBUS Pro sights look pretty nice.
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Posted: 8/25/2013 7:33:06 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10 or 20yrs ago nobody would've given much thought to this and, while some cared, probably wouldn't have acted this black/white about what happened. Unfortunately, we are living in interesting times where people have to take harder stances on just about everything or they will end up with nothing. Fortunately, at this point, we are in a peaceful phase. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If that's their view on all this then I agree with you. Over time I'm sure all their products will disapper from my home. I'll make sure all my local stores and my gun club know about this too. The second amendment is constantly under attack and being kicked to the curb. Good gun owners are also constantly harassed and attacked and I sure won't support anyone or any business employing those attackers. Troy Industries, you guys should have been smarter than this and should have seen this coming. 10 or 20yrs ago nobody would've given much thought to this and, while some cared, probably wouldn't have acted this black/white about what happened. Unfortunately, we are living in interesting times where people have to take harder stances on just about everything or they will end up with nothing. Fortunately, at this point, we are in a peaceful phase. I'm not so sure of that. Ask S&W how things were 20 years ago. They made peace with the Clinton administration and the company almost folded. It took them how long to get back? Sometimes people need to be taught with hard lessons because that's the only way they'll learn. |
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Posted: 8/25/2013 10:06:22 PM EST
[#7]
Hey Troy, I seem to have a problem with my magazine...
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Posted: 8/25/2013 11:18:29 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not so sure of that. Ask S&W how things were 20 years ago. They made peace with the Clinton administration and the company almost folded. It took them how long to get back? Sometimes people need to be taught with hard lessons because that's the only way they'll learn. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If that's their view on all this then I agree with you. Over time I'm sure all their products will disapper from my home. I'll make sure all my local stores and my gun club know about this too. The second amendment is constantly under attack and being kicked to the curb. Good gun owners are also constantly harassed and attacked and I sure won't support anyone or any business employing those attackers. Troy Industries, you guys should have been smarter than this and should have seen this coming. 10 or 20yrs ago nobody would've given much thought to this and, while some cared, probably wouldn't have acted this black/white about what happened. Unfortunately, we are living in interesting times where people have to take harder stances on just about everything or they will end up with nothing. Fortunately, at this point, we are in a peaceful phase. I'm not so sure of that. Ask S&W how things were 20 years ago. They made peace with the Clinton administration and the company almost folded. It took them how long to get back? Sometimes people need to be taught with hard lessons because that's the only way they'll learn. Troy is no S&W. |
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Posted: 8/25/2013 11:40:55 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree. I won't have anything to do with Troy as things stand today. There is still a chance for this to be fixed. I hope so. It isn't looking good, but the point of no return has not been crossed yet. Damn close though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Even if they fire Monroe. They will never see one cent of my money. That's the wrong way to look at these things. If everyone acted like this, what incentives would they have to not market exclusively to JBTs and JBT lovers? I agree. I won't have anything to do with Troy as things stand today. There is still a chance for this to be fixed. I hope so. It isn't looking good, but the point of no return has not been crossed yet. Damn close though. I retract this statement. I just looked at the Troy Facebook page. I was wrong. Steve Troy doubled down a few days ago on the side of government JBTs. Troy Industries is dead to me and will forever remain so. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 2:40:09 AM EST
[#10]
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Posted: 8/26/2013 3:00:19 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryRight click, save picture as..... When people ask what iron sight to buy in the future people need to post pictures like this one. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 3:04:34 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Theres a linked article about J-Fled being thrown under the buss by Troy and in the comments there appears to be a disgruntled (former) Arfcomer. haha. http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8856 [div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-size: 12px; line-height: 2.2em; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246);'][div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none;']heresthedeal on August 25, 2013 at 5:58 pm said: [div style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: none; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246);']Boo Hoo, Troy hired this guy, Troy fired that guy. Wake up Arfcom !! You got a site staff member stretching out his 15 minutes of fame after he worked for BW on a "no bid / no vetting” contract for the last 8 years. Then you got the moderator who’s only contribution to the net is sucking off Vickers until he got kicked to the curb on M4C. Now he is pimping Jerk Fast Miss Big Green to anybody that will give him the time of day. Next he is due to suck off David Bowie so he can get some free pants. Barfcom is the laughing stock of the boards as long as they have "been no where overseas – done nothing” guys running the show. Suck it !!! That's some funny shit, right there. 
I love how somebody has so much hatred built up and the only outlet they've got is resorting to something like that as anonymously as possible. It makes me giggle. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 3:10:00 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's fascinating isn't it? Watching companies/industry people make very similar mistakes and then rather than learning from others mistakes, they take the exact same course of action and shit on their customers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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HS Precision. Cooper Firearms. Jim Zumbo. Jerry Tsai and Recoil magazine. Troy Industries. It's fascinating isn't it? Watching companies/industry people make very similar mistakes and then rather than learning from others mistakes, they take the exact same course of action and shit on their customers. You forgot Armalite. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 3:17:48 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know about Cooper Firearms. The HS Precision issue is almost a mirror image of this and the outrage comes from the same incident. HS hired Lon Horiuchi, who is the HRT sniper who shot Vicki Weaver during Ruby Ridge. Troy now employs another HRT sniper who says this was a clean shoot and would've taken the shot had Horiuchi not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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HS Precision. Cooper Firearms. Jim Zumbo. Jerry Tsai and Recoil magazine. Troy Industries. It's fascinating isn't it? Watching companies/industry people make very similar mistakes and then rather than learning from others mistakes, they take the exact same course of action and shit on their customers. I know about Zumbo but never heard of any negative stories on the others mentioned. What's the very short story on them and the outcome? The latest starts out: There was once a company that made AR15 parts and accessories that went by the name of Troy Industries ... Jerry Tsai/Recoil Magazine occurred rather recently and concerned his stance on certain types of weapons and civilians. This was stated in an MP7A1 article. Resignation Statement I don't know about Cooper Firearms. The HS Precision issue is almost a mirror image of this and the outrage comes from the same incident. HS hired Lon Horiuchi, who is the HRT sniper who shot Vicki Weaver during Ruby Ridge. Troy now employs another HRT sniper who says this was a clean shoot and would've taken the shot had Horiuchi not. Lon Horiuchi is fucking Kryptonite, why would anyone fuck with it? It's not like the guy is really that well known as a SHOOTER, as a JBT, yea, but as an expert rifleman? Not so much. Why the fuck would anyone WANT him for an endorsement or anyone associated with him? Why not get a real shooter like Jacob Bynum, Jon Weiller, Todd Hodnett? Someone with some real been there done that cred? Instead they pick an infamous "nobody". Makes no kind of sense..... |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 3:26:49 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lon Horiuchi is fucking Kryptonite, why would anyone fuck with it? Resume. HRT is a prestigious gig...usually. Some of the luster gets damaged when you're the guy who shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Or the guy saying "I would have taken that shot, too." knowing it resulted in killing an unarmed woman holding a baby. Why pick the guy they did? Well, even guys who say they would have shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby make friends in their career, and friends look out for one another. And in some circles there's also that perverse "us vs. them" thing going on where the sort of dudes who would shoot unarmed women in the head while they're holding a baby view themselves as a cut above the rest of the plebes. ...especially those who also have a badge and a gun and who have faced greater danger who would not shoot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 3:51:21 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Resume. HRT is a prestigious gig...usually. Some of the luster gets damaged when you're the guy who shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Or the guy saying "I would have taken that shot, too." knowing it resulted in killing an unarmed woman holding a baby. Why pick the guy they did? Well, even guys who say they would have shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby make friends in their career, and friends look out for one another. And in some circles there's also that perverse "us vs. them" thing going on where the sort of dudes who would shoot unarmed women in the head while they're holding a baby view themselves as a cut above the rest of the plebes. ...especially those who also have a badge and a gun and who have faced greater danger who would not shoot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lon Horiuchi is fucking Kryptonite, why would anyone fuck with it? Resume. HRT is a prestigious gig...usually. Some of the luster gets damaged when you're the guy who shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Or the guy saying "I would have taken that shot, too." knowing it resulted in killing an unarmed woman holding a baby. Why pick the guy they did? Well, even guys who say they would have shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby make friends in their career, and friends look out for one another. And in some circles there's also that perverse "us vs. them" thing going on where the sort of dudes who would shoot unarmed women in the head while they're holding a baby view themselves as a cut above the rest of the plebes. ...especially those who also have a badge and a gun and who have faced greater danger who would not shoot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. And I love the part where Steve Troy defended Monroe by saying he was saying (in his Congressional testimony) that he (Monroe) would have taken the shot at Kevin Harris because Harris was an armed threat to his team (HRT sniper team?). Before Troy deleted my Facebook comment, I pointed out that Ron Hourichi claimed that under the HRT's unconstitutional (and illegal) made-up and evolving ROE, Hourichi tried to justify his shooting at Weaver (who he thought was the taller Harris) in the back as he was standing over his son's body because Weaver and Harris were posing a threat to the circling helicopter - by looking at it. Yes, Weaver and Harris looked at it. Didn't aim at it. Didn't shoot at it. But Hourichi really shot Weaver because the unconstitutional and illegal ROE said (at that point) he could shoot any armed male. Apparently doesn't matter to Steve Troy that the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility said those ROE didn't meet the legal and constitutional standard for use of deadly force. Apparently doesn't matter to Steve Troy that Dale Monroe said he disagrees with that (really? you get to decide yourself?). Never mind that FBI agents are specifically trained as to what the constitutional and legal standard for deadly force is. Larry Potts and the HRT leadership exceed those at Ruby Ridge and former HRT sniper Dale Monroe is on record as saying that was okay. And Monroe's clear statements in the rest of the video that Steve Troy references apparently don't matter to Steve Troy. Nor does his own apparent misrepresentation of who said what. Troy Asymetrics' mission statement makes it clear who their target audience / market for their training is. Former HRT sniper and FBI SA Dale Monroe, a man who says he is above the standards set by the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility, is apparently the kind of trainer Troy Asymetrics wants. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:00:26 AM EST
[#17]
We need to keep this thread on page one as much as possible, so which mod wants to tack it
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Seriously fuck you troy, hopefully shitting on your customer base like this will bleed you dry. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:05:49 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, Weaver and Harris looked at it. Didn't aim at it. Didn't shoot at it. But Hourichi really shot Weaver because the unconstitutional and illegal ROE said (at that point) he could shoot any armed male. Apparently doesn't matter to Steve Troy that the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility said those White House Approved ROE didn't meet the legal and constitutional standard for use of deadly force. Apparently doesn't matter to Steve Troy that Dale Monroe said he disagrees with that (really? you get to decide yourself?). Troy Asymetrics' mission statement makes it clear who their target audience / market for their training is. Former HRT sniper and FBI SA Dale Monroe, a man who says he is above the standards set by the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility, is apparently the kind of trainer Troy Asymetrics wants. Just wanted to point that out Sometimes there's justice..... |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:08:13 AM EST
[#19]
Wow this is pretty disgusting. I have had good luck with Troy in the past, but I may have to dump all of their shit. I dont want their logo on my rifle(s) if these two assholes are the kind of people they are going to hire and otherwise choose to represent them.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:25:59 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryDude !! you just broke my laptop.... 
The screen just melted before my eyes. Had to fire up the desk top to reply.... 
J/K |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:28:20 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These Troy threads need to continue. This does not need to die and the dust does not need to settle. New people come along every day and in just a few short weeks this will be out of sight if we let it. We will remember it but new customers are innocently ignorant. It is our job to make them aware. Forever. Well said. I could not agree more. I wish they would make this thread a sticky, but something tells me that will never happen. 
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:36:22 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Resume. HRT is a prestigious gig...usually. Some of the luster gets damaged when you're the guy who shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Or the guy saying "I would have taken that shot, too." knowing it resulted in killing an unarmed woman holding a baby. Why pick the guy they did? Well, even guys who say they would have shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby make friends in their career, and friends look out for one another. And in some circles there's also that perverse "us vs. them" thing going on where the sort of dudes who would shoot unarmed women in the head while they're holding a baby view themselves as a cut above the rest of the plebes. ...especially those who also have a badge and a gun and who have faced greater danger who would not shoot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lon Horiuchi is fucking Kryptonite, why would anyone fuck with it? Resume. HRT is a prestigious gig...usually. Some of the luster gets damaged when you're the guy who shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. Or the guy saying "I would have taken that shot, too." knowing it resulted in killing an unarmed woman holding a baby. Why pick the guy they did? Well, even guys who say they would have shot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby make friends in their career, and friends look out for one another. And in some circles there's also that perverse "us vs. them" thing going on where the sort of dudes who would shoot unarmed women in the head while they're holding a baby view themselves as a cut above the rest of the plebes. ...especially those who also have a badge and a gun and who have faced greater danger who would not shoot an unarmed woman in the head while she's holding a baby. We've been engaged in a global war on terror for over a decade. Like there aren't a hundred guys with a REAL resume they could get these days? Guys that don't piss off your customer base? Guys that have kicked down doors and shot REAL bad guys in the face- and done it the RIGHT WAY...Guys that have shot pirates off the fantail of a ship, in the dark, for example.......How about a guy like Ethan Place?.......It just seems like a really boneheaded thing to do. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:40:46 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We've been engaged in a global war on terror for over a decade. Like there aren't a hundred guys with a REAL resume they could get these days? Guys that don't piss off your customer base? Guys that have kicked down doors and shot REAL bad guys in the face- and done it the RIGHT WAY...Guys that have shot pirates off the fantail of a ship, in the dark, for example.......How about a guy like Ethan Place?.......It just seems like a really boneheaded thing to do. See, you're trying to make decisions as a detached, rational observer. This places you, by default, outside the bubble of decision making. Objectively it's fucktarded. Without question. I'm willing to bet there's something more than reason at play, here. Friendship. Money. Etc. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:41:22 AM EST
[#24]
Troy hired and stands by the hiring decision of a person who volunteered under oath that he was ready to shoot an American mother in the head while she was holding her baby.
They're all reprehensible.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:42:35 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These Troy threads need to continue. This does not need to die and the dust does not need to settle. New people come along every day and in just a few short weeks this will be out of sight if we let it. We will remember it but new customers are innocently ignorant. It is our job to make them aware. Forever. I agree, bump |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 4:45:14 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You forgot Armalite. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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HS Precision. Cooper Firearms. Jim Zumbo. Jerry Tsai and Recoil magazine. Troy Industries. It's fascinating isn't it? Watching companies/industry people make very similar mistakes and then rather than learning from others mistakes, they take the exact same course of action and shit on their customers. You forgot Armalite. And the scorpion guy from red something in Florida |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:03:17 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Theres a linked article about J-Fled being thrown under the buss by Troy and in the comments there appears to be a disgruntled (former) Arfcomer. haha. Boo Hoo, Troy hired this guy, Troy fired that guy. Wake up Arfcom !! You got a site staff member stretching out his 15 minutes of fame after he worked for BW on a "no bid / no vetting” contract for the last 8 years. Then you got the moderator who’s only contribution to the net is sucking off Vickers until he got kicked to the curb on M4C. Now he is pimping Jerk Fast Miss Big Green to anybody that will give him the time of day. Next he is due to suck off David Bowie so he can get some free pants. Barfcom is the laughing stock of the boards as long as they have "been no where overseas – done nothing” guys running the show. Suck it !!!  |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:05:50 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the scorpion guy from red something in Florida Quote HistoryQuoted:
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HS Precision. Cooper Firearms. Jim Zumbo. Jerry Tsai and Recoil magazine. Troy Industries. It's fascinating isn't it? Watching companies/industry people make very similar mistakes and then rather than learning from others mistakes, they take the exact same course of action and shit on their customers. You forgot Armalite. And the scorpion guy from red something in Florida Code Red Firearms |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:08:50 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Troy hired and stands by the hiring decision of a person who volunteered under oath that he was ready to shoot an American mother in the head while she was holding her baby. They're all reprehensible. What happens when the Podunk PD gets sued over a shoot and their attorneys ask "who were the sniper's instructors? Let's call him as an expert." Can you imagine the cross examination of Monroe, who has been quoted as saying he would also have taken the biggest fuck up shot of the 20th Century? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:29:05 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're all reprehensible. That's not really what he said. He said he was prepared to shoot when Horiuchi fired. Horiuchi fired at people fleeing, who were not returning fire, and without knowing what was past them, killing Weaver and just by a miracle not putting a rifle bullet through a baby. Horiuchi's actions were criticized by his employer and Congress. So his partner who says he was willing to do the same thing is someone law enforcement officials want as a trainer? What happens when the Podunk PD gets sued over a shoot and their attorneys ask "who were the sniper's instructors? Let's call him as an expert." Can you imagine the cross examination of Monroe, who has been quoted as saying he would also have taken the biggest fuck up shot of the 20th Century? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Troy hired and stands by the hiring decision of a person who volunteered under oath that he was ready to shoot an American mother in the head while she was holding her baby. That's not really what he said. He said he was prepared to shoot when Horiuchi fired. Horiuchi fired at people fleeing, who were not returning fire, and without knowing what was past them, killing Weaver and just by a miracle not putting a rifle bullet through a baby. Horiuchi's actions were criticized by his employer and Congress. So his partner who says he was willing to do the same thing is someone law enforcement officials want as a trainer? What happens when the Podunk PD gets sued over a shoot and their attorneys ask "who were the sniper's instructors? Let's call him as an expert." Can you imagine the cross examination of Monroe, who has been quoted as saying he would also have taken the biggest fuck up shot of the 20th Century? I had a chance not long ago to cross examine some LEO snipers while attending an Urban Snipers Class. At first they were kinda stand offish, why was I, a lawyer in the class etc....They were all nice enough but you could tell there was some suspicion.....Then as part of one of our daily "discussions" the instructor (LEO himself) asked me if I would cross them a little as it might be something they would encounter one day..... Knowing that the average LEO Sniper shot is 51 yards- meaning many obviously are UNDER that I asked one of the guys what his 30 yard zero was.....It got real quiet.....Next day we shot zeros from 10 yards out to 110 recording in the data books every 10 yards......It was an interesting experience....We had one rifle, a .223 AR, whose trajectory moved almost 2" in only 10 yards....if I had not seen the target I would not have believed it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:35:12 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just wanted to point that out Sometimes there's justice..... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, Weaver and Harris looked at it. Didn't aim at it. Didn't shoot at it. But Hourichi really shot Weaver because the unconstitutional and illegal ROE said (at that point) he could shoot any armed male. Apparently doesn't matter to Steve Troy that the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility said those White House Approved ROE didn't meet the legal and constitutional standard for use of deadly force. Apparently doesn't matter to Steve Troy that Dale Monroe said he disagrees with that (really? you get to decide yourself?). Troy Asymetrics' mission statement makes it clear who their target audience / market for their training is. Former HRT sniper and FBI SA Dale Monroe, a man who says he is above the standards set by the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility, is apparently the kind of trainer Troy Asymetrics wants. Just wanted to point that out Sometimes there's justice..... I've never read anything that says that SA Richard Rodgers (the HRT commander and scene SAIC) had any sort of appproval from any higher authority for his made-up on-ther-spot illeagal and unconstitutional ROE (that he kept changing). Apparently, when FBI HQ discovered Rodgers' ROE, they were immediately shut down. While this is from Wikpedia, the sources are given and it is accurate: Both FBI HQ and the Site Commanders in Idaho re-evaluated the situation based on information they were receiving from US Marshals Hunt, Cooper and Roderick about what had happened on August 21. On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo: OPR 004477 Something to Consider 1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit. 2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting. 3. Vicki has no charges against her. 4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog. Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#cite_note-Ruby_Ridge_1995-10][10][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#cite_note-55][55][/url] On August 26, 1992, 10:53 a.m., the Rules of Engagement that had been in effect since the arrival of the HRT on August 22 were revoked.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#cite_note-56][56][/url] 10. a b c d e f g Ruby Ridge: Report of the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 1995. 55. Danny Coulson and Elaine Shannon, No Heroes: Inside the FBI's Secret Counter-Terror Force, Pocket Books, 1999, 2002, ISBN 978-0-671-02062-0 . 56. DOJ OPR Ruby Ridge Task Force Report, Jun 10, 1994, Section VI Chronology of Events. Deputy Director Coulson founded the HRT. He wasn't happy. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:47:05 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a chance not long ago to cross examine some LEO snipers while attending an Urban Snipers Class. At first they were kinda stand offish, why was I, a lawyer in the class etc....They were all nice enough but you could tell there was some suspicion.....Then as part of one of our daily "discussions" the instructor (LEO himself) asked me if I would cross them a little as it might be something they would encounter one day..... Knowing that the average LEO Sniper shot is 51 yards- meaning many obviously are UNDER that I asked one of the guys what his 30 yard zero was.....It got real quiet.....Next day we shot zeros from 10 yards out to 110 recording in the data books every 10 yards......It was an interesting experience....We had one rifle, a .223 AR, whose trajectory moved almost 2" in only 10 yards....if I had not seen the target I would not have believed it. Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a chance not long ago to cross examine some LEO snipers while attending an Urban Snipers Class. At first they were kinda stand offish, why was I, a lawyer in the class etc....They were all nice enough but you could tell there was some suspicion.....Then as part of one of our daily "discussions" the instructor (LEO himself) asked me if I would cross them a little as it might be something they would encounter one day..... Knowing that the average LEO Sniper shot is 51 yards- meaning many obviously are UNDER that I asked one of the guys what his 30 yard zero was.....It got real quiet.....Next day we shot zeros from 10 yards out to 110 recording in the data books every 10 yards......It was an interesting experience....We had one rifle, a .223 AR, whose trajectory moved almost 2" in only 10 yards....if I had not seen the target I would not have believed it. The change in point of impact due to the difference between line of sight and centerline bore really becomes exaggerated at close distance. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:47:25 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're all reprehensible. That's not really what he said. He said he was prepared to shoot when Horiuchi fired. Horiuchi fired at people fleeing, who were not returning fire, and without knowing what was past them, killing Weaver and just by a miracle not putting a rifle bullet through a baby. Horiuchi's actions were criticized by his employer and Congress. So his partner who says he was willing to do the same thing is someone law enforcement officials want as a trainer? What happens when the Podunk PD gets sued over a shoot and their attorneys ask "who were the sniper's instructors? Let's call him as an expert." Can you imagine the cross examination of Monroe, who has been quoted as saying he would also have taken the biggest fuck up shot of the 20th Century? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Troy hired and stands by the hiring decision of a person who volunteered under oath that he was ready to shoot an American mother in the head while she was holding her baby. That's not really what he said. He said he was prepared to shoot when Horiuchi fired. Horiuchi fired at people fleeing, who were not returning fire, and without knowing what was past them, killing Weaver and just by a miracle not putting a rifle bullet through a baby. Horiuchi's actions were criticized by his employer and Congress. So his partner who says he was willing to do the same thing is someone law enforcement officials want as a trainer? What happens when the Podunk PD gets sued over a shoot and their attorneys ask "who were the sniper's instructors? Let's call him as an expert." Can you imagine the cross examination of Monroe, who has been quoted as saying he would also have taken the biggest fuck up shot of the 20th Century? Well said. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 5:53:58 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The change in point of impact due to the difference betweenline of sight and centerline bore really becomes exaggerated at close distance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a chance not long ago to cross examine some LEO snipers while attending an Urban Snipers Class. At first they were kinda stand offish, why was I, a lawyer in the class etc....They were all nice enough but you could tell there was some suspicion.....Then as part of one of our daily "discussions" the instructor (LEO himself) asked me if I would cross them a little as it might be something they would encounter one day..... Knowing that the average LEO Sniper shot is 51 yards- meaning many obviously are UNDER that I asked one of the guys what his 30 yard zero was.....It got real quiet.....Next day we shot zeros from 10 yards out to 110 recording in the data books every 10 yards......It was an interesting experience....We had one rifle, a .223 AR, whose trajectory moved almost 2" in only 10 yards....if I had not seen the target I would not have believed it. This was between 60 and 70 yards. We repeated it three times. You could have knocked me over with a feather....I would have called a man a liar had I not seen it myself. From 10 yards to 30 it was pretty steady. From 30-60 you could tell it was "climbing", then it just freaking jumped..... The guys went away with a data book they can use to defend their actions if they ever have to. They can say with certainty-- "My gun needs X on it to hit the T box at 30 yards"....It was a useful exercise for them. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 6:02:51 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The change in point of impact due to the difference betweenline of sight and centerline bore really becomes exaggerated at close distance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a chance not long ago to cross examine some LEO snipers while attending an Urban Snipers Class. At first they were kinda stand offish, why was I, a lawyer in the class etc....They were all nice enough but you could tell there was some suspicion.....Then as part of one of our daily "discussions" the instructor (LEO himself) asked me if I would cross them a little as it might be something they would encounter one day..... Knowing that the average LEO Sniper shot is 51 yards- meaning many obviously are UNDER that I asked one of the guys what his 30 yard zero was.....It got real quiet.....Next day we shot zeros from 10 yards out to 110 recording in the data books every 10 yards......It was an interesting experience....We had one rifle, a .223 AR, whose trajectory moved almost 2" in only 10 yards....if I had not seen the target I would not have believed it. parallax- how does it work ? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 6:15:23 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lon Horiuchi is fucking Kryptonite, why would anyone fuck with it? It's not like the guy is really that well known as a SHOOTER, as a JBT, yea, but as an expert rifleman? Not so much. Why the fuck would anyone WANT him for an endorsement or anyone associated with him? Why not get a real shooter like Jacob Bynum, Jon Weiller, Todd Hodnett? Someone with some real been there done that cred? Instead they pick an infamous "nobody". Makes no kind of sense..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lon Horiuchi is fucking Kryptonite, why would anyone fuck with it? It's not like the guy is really that well known as a SHOOTER, as a JBT, yea, but as an expert rifleman? Not so much. Why the fuck would anyone WANT him for an endorsement or anyone associated with him? Why not get a real shooter like Jacob Bynum, Jon Weiller, Todd Hodnett? Someone with some real been there done that cred? Instead they pick an infamous "nobody". Makes no kind of sense..... It really is an odd decision. I am by no means an expert on RR, but I know enough to be dangerous, and I had no clue who shot Vicki Weaver until HS Precision(didn't really know about them either) hired him and ARFCOM did this exact thing. The only reason I can see hiring either one of these guys is to get into a market, e.g. not what you know, it's who you know. Maybe they were also betting on officers/department heads that think like the two trolls in this thread. I don't know, and don't understand. Quoted:
We've been engaged in a global war on terror for over a decade. Like there aren't a hundred guys with a REAL resume they could get these days? Guys that don't piss off your customer base? Guys that have kicked down doors and shot REAL bad guys in the face- and done it the RIGHT WAY...Guys that have shot pirates off the fantail of a ship, in the dark, for example.......How about a guy like Ethan Place?.......It just seems like a really boneheaded thing to do. While I couldn't agree with your post anymore than I do. However, in regards to HS Precision, they probably don't have the pull or clout to get upper echelon guys like Ethan Place. Saying that, hiring Horiuchi was full on counting to potato! Quoted:
Quoted:
And the scorpion guy from red something in Florida Code Red Firearms I googled them, and I see they're shady and have terrible customer service, but did Code Red do something similar to HS Precision or Troy or even Armalite? |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 6:30:44 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I googled them, and I see they're shady and have terrible customer service, but did Code Red do something similar to HS Precision or Troy or even Armalite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And the scorpion guy from red something in Florida Code Red Firearms I googled them, and I see they're shady and have terrible customer service, but did Code Red do something similar to HS Precision or Troy or even Armalite? The owner sponsored a gun buy back program with the mayor of miami, a know anti. He then proceeded to say he didn't care if the stolen guns were returned to their owners. He went full retard when he said "piss off ARFCOM you're 1% of my sales." The backlash was epic and had him apologizing within a day. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1435520_Code_Red_Firearms_sponsors_local_gun_buy_back_for_the_police_dept.html |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 6:41:40 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The owner sponsored a gun buy back program with the mayor of miami, a know anti. He then proceeded to say he didn't care if the stolen guns were returned to their owners. He went full retard when he said "piss off ARFCOM you're 1% of my sales." The backlash was epic and had him apologizing within a day. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1435520_Code_Red_Firearms_sponsors_local_gun_buy_back_for_the_police_dept.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And the scorpion guy from red something in Florida Code Red Firearms I googled them, and I see they're shady and have terrible customer service, but did Code Red do something similar to HS Precision or Troy or even Armalite? The owner sponsored a gun buy back program with the mayor of miami, a know anti. He then proceeded to say he didn't care if the stolen guns were returned to their owners. He went full retard when he said "piss off ARFCOM you're 1% of my sales." The backlash was epic and had him apologizing within a day. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1435520_Code_Red_Firearms_sponsors_local_gun_buy_back_for_the_police_dept.html Oh ok I remember the gun buy back episode. I didn't realize it was the same company. I will read through that thread. I did find the Code red Firearms SUCKS facebook page. lol |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 6:42:56 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
parallax- how does it work ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had a chance not long ago to cross examine some LEO snipers while attending an Urban Snipers Class. At first they were kinda stand offish, why was I, a lawyer in the class etc....They were all nice enough but you could tell there was some suspicion.....Then as part of one of our daily "discussions" the instructor (LEO himself) asked me if I would cross them a little as it might be something they would encounter one day..... Knowing that the average LEO Sniper shot is 51 yards- meaning many obviously are UNDER that I asked one of the guys what his 30 yard zero was.....It got real quiet.....Next day we shot zeros from 10 yards out to 110 recording in the data books every 10 yards......It was an interesting experience....We had one rifle, a .223 AR, whose trajectory moved almost 2" in only 10 yards....if I had not seen the target I would not have believed it. parallax- how does it work ? Not like you think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax TRG |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 7:18:28 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Troy is no S&W. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If that's their view on all this then I agree with you. Over time I'm sure all their products will disapper from my home. I'll make sure all my local stores and my gun club know about this too. The second amendment is constantly under attack and being kicked to the curb. Good gun owners are also constantly harassed and attacked and I sure won't support anyone or any business employing those attackers. Troy Industries, you guys should have been smarter than this and should have seen this coming. 10 or 20yrs ago nobody would've given much thought to this and, while some cared, probably wouldn't have acted this black/white about what happened. Unfortunately, we are living in interesting times where people have to take harder stances on just about everything or they will end up with nothing. Fortunately, at this point, we are in a peaceful phase. I'm not so sure of that. Ask S&W how things were 20 years ago. They made peace with the Clinton administration and the company almost folded. It took them how long to get back? Sometimes people need to be taught with hard lessons because that's the only way they'll learn. Troy is no S&W. That's certainly true but the idea is much the same. We're way past the point of picking sides. Troy chose poorly and everyone should know that. Whatever fallout there is belongs 100% to them. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 7:52:18 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M4c is fucking obsessed with that Todd Green guy, who no one but them seems to care about Having met Todd once I'd say he laughs himself to sleep every night when he reads some hate filled screed they put out. It's not hurting him. Bump to keep the Troy hate alive! |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:36:49 AM EST
[#42]
I spoke with Troy reps this morning about this situation and got more clarity on where things are.
Troy Industries is a completely isolated company from Troy Asymmetric. Different leadership, different contacts, as far as I was told autonomous from each other. Yes, they can exert pressure on each other and I would guess they could cut ties from each other if needed. I'm assuming that the quick response last week proved that there is a sufficient amount of pressure on the relationship afforded to each other. This doesn't mean that Steve or anyone else inside Troy Ind can make business decisions for the Asymmetric business from what I was told. So at this time Troy Ind is unhappy with the current situation, not unlike people here, and that they are waiting for it to shake out at higher levels. Before I ever brought up that this community would distance itself from a company acting in this manner, they made it exceedingly clear that Troy Industries has nothing to do with this and it's a black eye on them. It was made clear that this mess has impacted their employee moral. Everyone here has to keep in mind that companies often forge relationships like this to benefit both entities and that corporate structures can be confusing, regardless of naming. It's a potential nightmare when a situation like this one occurs and you are tied by name and very little else. The employees of Troy Ind I have had the pleasure of meeting are shooters and patriots cut from the same cloth as us and it's very clear to see this trouble them too. I'm not sure what to expect next, or when we will hear more, but I do feel they are making efforts internally and something more will happen. I am a fan of voting with your dollars and voicing your opinion. I know people at Troy can't take the time to talk to everyone as they did with me, so all I ask is that you keep the above in mind when forming your decisions. Also remember we are not privy to all the inside information on what is taking place. If I feel Troy Industries has misled us on this and is responsible for the hiring, we will take appropriate action, but I have faith in Steve and everyone there to do what is right. They have proven time and time again that they will do what is right and they have never given us a reason to doubt them. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:42:34 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Troy Industries is a completely isolated company from Troy Asymmetric. Different leadership, different contacts, as far as I was told autonomous from each other. [/span] Well then, perhaps STEVE TROY shouldn't have come out in support of the "entirely separate" actions of the other, "completely third party." You're being lied to. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:44:10 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I spoke with Troy reps this morning about this situation and got more clarity on where things are. Troy Industries is a completely isolated company from Troy Asymmetric. Different leadership, different contacts, as far as I was told autonomous from each other. Yes, they can exert pressure on each other and I would guess they could cut ties from each other if needed. I'm assuming that the quick response last week proved that there is a sufficient amount of pressure on the relationship afforded to each other. This doesn't mean that Steve or anyone else inside Troy Ind can make business decisions for the Asymmetric business from what I was told. So at this time Troy Ind is unhappy with the current situation, not unlike people here, and that they are waiting for it to shake out at higher levels. Before I ever brought up that this community would distance itself from a company acting in this manner, they made it exceedingly clear that Troy Industries has nothing to do with this and it's a black eye on them. It was made clear that this mess has impacted their employee moral. Everyone here has to keep in mind that companies often forge relationships like this to benefit both entities and that corporate structures can be confusing, regardless of naming. It's a potential nightmare when a situation like this one occurs and you are tied by name and very little else. The employees of Troy Ind I have had the pleasure of meeting are shooters and patriots cut from the same cloth as us and it's very clear to see this trouble them too. I'm not sure what to expect next, or when we will hear more, but I do feel they are making efforts internally and something more will happen. I am a fan of voting with your dollars and voicing your opinion. I know people at Troy can't take the time to talk to everyone as they did with me, so all I ask is that you keep the above in mind when forming your decisions. Also remember we are not privy to all the inside information on what is taking place. If I feel Troy Industries has misled us on this and is responsible for the hiring, we will take appropriate action, but I have faith in Steve and everyone there to do what is right. They have proven time and time again that they will do what is right and they have never given us a reason to doubt them. Steve Troy should have said something more like that, with a finishing sentence like "We are working to cut ties with that other 'Troy' company," instead of put his name on what is essentially an endorsement of Dale Monroe. Not convinced. Edit: Thanks for digging Goatboy. As a result of what they told you I'm even further into the 'Don't believe a word they say' column. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:45:53 AM EST
[#45]
Furthermore, how were they able to respond so quickly on JFLED?!?!? Let alone post it on Troy Ind. like it was their decision? Smells like more PR lies.
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:47:39 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Furthermore, how were they able to respond so quickly on JFLED?!?!? Let alone post it on Troy Ind. like it was their decision? Smells like more PR lies. See now you've hit the nail straight on the head. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:49:49 AM EST
[#47]
If Steve Troy wants to own the success of both companies, he must also own the negative results of his business decisions. It is very unfortunate that good employees suffer from management's poor decisions. He made the decision to keep Monroe, throwing not only consumers, but the hardware side of their own house, under the bus.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:51:35 AM EST
[#48]
Depending on how badly this impacts business, I could see him officially "separating" the two companies.
Even then, I won't buy their shit, because his responses reek of dishonesty, and I won't believe anything he or his company releases. I'll never buy any of their shit again, no matter what they do. They've chosen a side, now they can play the game. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:55:24 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I spoke with Troy reps this morning about this situation and got more clarity on where things are. Troy Industries is a completely isolated company from Troy Asymmetric. Different leadership, different contacts, as far as I was told autonomous from each other. Yes, they can exert pressure on each other and I would guess they could cut ties from each other if needed. I'm assuming that the quick response last week proved that there is a sufficient amount of pressure on the relationship afforded to each other. This doesn't mean that Steve or anyone else inside Troy Ind can make business decisions for the Asymmetric business from what I was told. If Troy Asymmetric is so separate, why are their press releases coming out through Troy Industries' twitter and Facebook feeds? For me, that's a "no sale" on the PR front. Thank you for following up with them and taking the time to let us know where you're at with them. ETA: http://worldoftroy.com/ Tells the whole story. |
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Posted: 8/26/2013 8:55:57 AM EST
[#50]
I know what was posted on Friday and that Steve's statement backs Monroe as being misquoted and misrepresented. I'm not a Troy employee nor privy to anything other than answers to questions I ask. I'm also subject to the information out there and doing what I can to add to it.
I know this mess has definitely been felt by them internally and I'm not one to stifle an important discussion like this until it's resolved. My hope is for a proper resolution, but that includes giving them time and space to handle their business and to see what happens. |
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