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Posted: 11/12/2022 9:58:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just found one of my sons coworkers kid was on the 17. 
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Posted: 11/12/2022 9:58:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Confirmed that two of the B-17 crew were recently retired guys from our shop, and the P-63 pilot was a current UAL 777 guy.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 9:59:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Blancolirio:
 Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision 12 Nov. 2022 |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:04:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Looked like they were forming up to do a fly by. The '63 came in hot and late.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:05:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is why the US Army Air Force or the RAF weren’t a fan of the P-63 in combat. Now the Russians thought it was amazing compared to the pieces of shit they flew. Yes the forward view isn't great but you are confusing the P-39 with a P-63. P-39 lack of altitude performance and range were what the RAF didn't like and why it wasn't a good interceptor in Pacific. P-63 completely different plane. We didn't use it because we had plenty of P51, 47, 38, 39, 40 and didn't need another fighter airframe to support. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:05:38 PM EDT
[#6]
God that sucks.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:06:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's with all the private videos? Trying to restrict access so they can better monetize the footage? Respect for the dead? I don’t know. The P-63 makes this join-up three seconds earlier, and you're looking at quite a few fatalities on the ground. The warbird airshow community might want to have their procedures and performer vetting better in hand that what is being conveyed here by been there/done that members. "Horrible accident where Pilot A lost situational awareness for two seconds," sounds a lot worse than, "We had Procedures X, Y, and Z designed to prevent this mishap, and Pilot A violated them." Who insures these events, the airframes, and the pilots' performance in them? |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:06:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've flown low and high wing aircraft so I don't disagree, but he was banked towards the B17 for a good portion of time, he HAD to have had sight of it at some point and some sort of awareness of its position... I just don't see how you'd miss it. I'd tend to think he just miscalculated. When he banked left to fly inside of it, he lost sight... And sure, he probably didn't know where he was, or perhaps by the time he realized it... to late. arm chair here. I imagine the 63's pattern was tighter, he was descending (perhaps to catch up to fighters ahead of him?) B-17 was lower and slower, longer pattern but still banking slightly left. 63 pilot may have seen the 17's left wing at the last second but at any rate his air frame deflected in the wing root area upwards and continued through to just behind the pilots, then you see the 63 remnants climbing rapidly before falling. So fast, it was, I'm thankful for that. closure rate and altitude change in different patterns. new rules inbound |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:07:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe he likely never saw the B17 until he was in the nook of the wing roots. The P63 has very poor forward visibility and no visibility below at very shallow nose up attitudes. It has a very tall panel and very low seating position.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:09:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Confirmed that two of the B-17 crew were recently retired guys from our shop, and the P-63 pilot was a current UAL 777 guy. Condolences. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:11:09 PM EDT
[#11]
free for all? jeez
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:11:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @mudeagle You ok bro? Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:12:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I sent the videos to my dad (pilot) who has watched them obsessively over the past few hours. He agrees with a lot of the pilots here that the P62 (coming from on high and in a banking roll by the look of it ) never saw the B17 until he was already through it. On to the next question: Why was he at the same altitude as the bomber, instead of 50-100' feet below it? Who allowed that at the pre-show preflight briefing? It's not like the people on the ground could tell if they were at slightly different altitudes. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:13:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @mudeagle You ok bro? Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. Some good news today. I'm glad you are good. Sorry about the tragedy that unfolded today. Warbird aviation community is small, it hurts when we have losses like this. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:14:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Dang
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:15:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A new angle has surfaced.
That angle makes me think how close they were to spectator fatalities given the P-63’s flight path at impact. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:15:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. I have a buddy who works on Sentimental Journey out of Falcon Field. Those guys in the CAF take serious pride in what they do. Very sad day. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:16:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Elderly rpeople own them now. A far cry from good hand-eye coordinated 22 year olds flying them in the war. Yes, we have 20-somethings, 30-somethings, and 40-somethings flying the CAF bombers. There are no "elderly" pilots doing it currently, no. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:18:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just saw the video over on Twitter. Dang . Looked like it did 200mph directly to the wingroot. B17 fell apart like Legos. Horrifying. Seems fairly clear that the p63 pilot did not see the b17 until it was too late. Better situational awareness would have likely prevented this. On your comment about the 200mph into the B17, I see the P63's closing speed on the B17 as potentially one of the main problems. Someone mentioned the ground tracking at the time of the collision as being 262 or so for the P63. I'm not sure how precise that ground tracking is/was, but I was thinking something even higher the way he closed on the B17. Not sure what the slow cruising speed is/was on the B17, but the P63 closed like a missile strike. He may very well have spotted the B17 at some point, but those WWII fighters don't turn on a dime at speed. I worked for Marvin "Lefty" Gardner back in my high school and early college days...one of the founders of the CAF. I got to see a lot of those CAF planes fly up close and went up in some of them. Someone else commented about "elderly" guys mostly flying these warbirds. Man, Lefty was the owner of that white P-38 Lightning and he was doing dead engine barrel rolls at nearly 70 years old. Not every old timer is a doddering old fool drooling in his oatmeal. I'm sure there are some old guys out there flying some old warbirds that perhaps shouldn't be for safety's sake, but making blanket statements about older pilots is false. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:18:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just found one of my sons coworkers kid was on the 17. Damn. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:18:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why was he at the same altitude as the bomber, instead of 50-100' feet below it? Who allowed that at the pre-show preflight briefing? It's not like the people on the ground could tell if they were at slightly different altitudes. I wasn't at the show today, but generally the bombers and fighters have different assigned block altitudes that de-conflict their flightpaths both laterally and vertically. Obviously someone -- and I don't know whom yet -- was outside of their block. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:18:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @mudeagle You ok bro? Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. I'm so glad you're ok. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:20:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not siding with him but there were a lot of maintenance issues found in the investigation of the 909 B-17 crash. I did a walk through on the 909's last time in Orange county. Wanted to take the ride along just didn't have the expendable funds at the time. I noticed a bunch of hydrolic fluid leaking it seemed like. I bet I have pictures of the leaks, I took a bunch. Not sure if that's normal for these old birds, figured it was since it was plain as day to see. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:20:46 PM EDT
[#24]
I flew on Texas Raiders back in September of this year at the pikes peak air show. They flew us up close to the mountain range. It was a great plane and the folks that flew it were good people. This is sad day. RIP and my condolences for those that lost friends and loved ones.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:23:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did a walk through on the 909's last time in Orange county. Wanted to take the ride along just didn't have the expendable funds at the time. I noticed a bunch of hydrolic fluid leaking it seemed like. I bet I have pictures of the leaks, I took a bunch. Not sure if that's normal for these old birds, figured it was since it was plain as day to see. Do they have the same maintenance log requirements as commercial aircraft? I would think not. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:24:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. Sorry for your loss. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:26:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've flown low and high wing aircraft so I don't disagree, but he was banked towards the B17 for a good portion of time, he HAD to have had sight of it at some point and some sort of awareness of its position... I just don't see how you'd miss it. I'd tend to think he just miscalculated. When he banked left to fly inside of it, he lost sight... And sure, he probably didn't know where he was, or perhaps by the time he realized it... to late. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Much easier in a 152 than a P-63. In a bank your wings are over tour head. Much better view. In the P-63 you have a low wing and a much poorer view. In that bank and that situation I have no doubt he lost sight of the 17 and flew right into it. In my mind he should have rolled wings level and pulled up. But alas.. Here I sit in a chair. I've flown low and high wing aircraft so I don't disagree, but he was banked towards the B17 for a good portion of time, he HAD to have had sight of it at some point and some sort of awareness of its position... I just don't see how you'd miss it. I'd tend to think he just miscalculated. When he banked left to fly inside of it, he lost sight... And sure, he probably didn't know where he was, or perhaps by the time he realized it... to late. I don't know jack shit about this topic or this art - but to me, he had a good view of the empty airspace they both later occupied - which was empty at the time. At the time of the impact, he was banking and probably didn't see B17 until too late - if at all. He might have been aware that the B17 was around a few moments prior during the incoming formation flight - or not if he was tunnel versioned on the formation guy in front of him. But regardless lost visual some time prior to the impact - is how I saw it. Kind of wish I hadn't, that video is fucking horrific. But anyway, to me, it looks like he started his banking late, and did a slow bank at that, which swing him wider than probably should have. And yes, this is obviously 100% on the P-63 pilot. Who is dead right now anyway. God bless him as well - nobody deserved this. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:26:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On your comment about the 200mph into the B17, I see the P63's closing speed on the B17 as potentially one of the main problems. Someone mentioned the ground tracking at the time of the collision as being 262 or so for the P63. I'm not sure how precise that ground tracking is/was, but I was thinking something even higher the way he closed on the B17. Not sure what the slow cruising speed is/was on the B17, but the P63 closed like a missile strike. He may very well have spotted the B17 at some point, but those WWII fighters don't turn on a dime at speed. I worked for Marvin "Lefty" Gardner back in my high school and early college days...one of the founders of the CAF. I got to see a lot of those CAF planes fly up close and went up in some of them. Someone else commented about "elderly" guys mostly flying these warbirds. Man, Lefty was the owner of that white P-38 Lightning and he was doing dead engine barrel rolls at nearly 70 years old. Not every old timer is a doddering old fool drooling in his oatmeal. I'm sure there are some old guys out there flying some old warbirds that perhaps shouldn't be for safety's sake, but making blanket statements about older pilots is false. Blanket statements are almost never appropriate, but when the accident was first reported as a P-51 it would have been almost the 20th one in 20 years. Not a lot of 20 year olds crashing them either so pilot competency is an obvious question to ask. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:26:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm so glad you're ok. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: @mudeagle You ok bro? Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. I'm so glad you're ok. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:26:42 PM EDT
[#30]
the p-63's flight track makes me think as a fast mover he jumped in the pattern on final while descending. in video he's cutting it short a bit.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:27:16 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:31:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another geriatric in a P-51 killing people? No and not a P-51. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:32:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the p-63's flight track makes me think as a fast mover he jumped in the pattern on final while descending. in video he's cutting it short a bit. They were in the middle of an airshow performance, not in the landing pattern. Again, I was not at the show today, but generally the fighters and bombers are in different racetrack circuits with defined altitude and geographic boundaries. Obviously one of the two of them was out of their block. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:33:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the p-63's flight track makes me think as a fast mover he jumped in the pattern on final while descending. in video he's cutting it short a bit. Is this something they would rehearse before the show or is it just a “know where you’re supposed to be” thing? |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:34:29 PM EDT
[#35]
That's terrible.Can't help but to wonder if right before the collision, the P-63 driver was looking for the B-17 and wondering where it was. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:34:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hydraulic fluid. I take it you're not an aircraft mechanic. If it's not leaking, that's when you have to worry about it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I did a walk through on the 909's last time in Orange county. Wanted to take the ride along just didn't have the expendable funds at the time. I noticed a bunch of hydrolic fluid leaking it seemed like. I bet I have pictures of the leaks, I took a bunch. Not sure if that's normal for these old birds, figured it was since it was plain as day to see. Hydraulic fluid. I take it you're not an aircraft mechanic. If it's not leaking, that's when you have to worry about it. Thanks, auto mechanic. So I probably noticed the leaks more than most people there. Just stuck out to me. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:35:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Blanket statements are almost never appropriate, but when the accident was first reported as a P-51 it would have been almost the 20th one in 20 years. Not a lot of 20 year olds crashing them either so pilot competency is an obvious question to ask. Did you bother to find out the causes of the mishaps? Break it down for us. P-51 mishap rate for the past 20 years. Pilot Error Maintenance Error Material Failure Struck by Another Aircraft Add them up, then do the math. Then get back with us. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:35:40 PM EDT
[#38]
P63 Pilot
Played a stupid game. Won a stupid prize. I've flown all the tier 5 planes & the big cowling combined with high speed, make it hard to see below you. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:35:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hydraulic fluid. I take it you're not an aircraft mechanic. If it's not leaking, that's when you have to worry about it. Yep, if a big radial ain't leaking oil it probably has none in it. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:36:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Does anyone know if Ken R. was in either craft? He's a pilot for the Gulf Coast Wing where the B17 is based out of
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:38:37 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:41:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does anyone know if Ken R. was in either craft? He's a pilot for the Gulf Coast Wing where the B17 is based out of No, he was not one of the three pilots involved. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:41:43 PM EDT
[#43]
I see a lot of comments about the P-63 pilot being at fault but could the B-17 have been off course?
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:42:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, if a big radial ain't leaking oil it probably has none in it. Yep, we have had a few larger bombers here over the years, B-24/B29 and 5 minutes after they're on the ramp shut down, there's oil on the concrete. Pretty normal. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:42:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote History
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:42:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were in the middle of an airshow performance, not in the landing pattern. Again, I was not at the show today, but generally the fighters and bombers are in different racetrack circuits with defined altitude and geographic boundaries. Obviously one of the two of them was out of their block. Is a mis-set altimeter a possibility? Glad you're here and talking. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:43:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Auto mechanic? 21+years of Military aircraft maintenance plus 14 years as an Aircrewman. 45+ years in aviation related fields. Now it's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS you know jack shit about aircraft, aircraft mechanics or have a sense of humor. Holy shit he just said that he noticed a few leaks, chill the fuck out hero. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:43:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, not me. I was supposed to be flying the B-24 today but traded out for a work trip...so I'm not in Dallas. Sad day. Some good news then, in an event with very little. Thank you for letting all of us know you weren't involved. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:43:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: P63 Pilot Played a stupid game. Won a stupid prize. I've flown all the tier 5 planes & the big cowling combined with high speed, make it hard to see below you. Which is why at an airshow like this, there are dedicated geographic and altitude blocks for the fighter and bomber patterns. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:43:53 PM EDT
[#50]
Edit
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