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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:13:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pic of Texas Raiders I took a few years ago. What a shitty situation all around https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/171734/C79DE879-48D8-48C3-98B8-3F138FD16AD5_jpe-2598317.JPG May I ask, where you took this picture? |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:20:33 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May I ask, where you took this picture? Dallas Executive Airport. Same place the crash happened. Pic was taken Oct 30, 2016 |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:24:01 AM EDT
[#3]
So I'm just jumping in this thread for the first time. Do we yet know the names of the pilots involved?
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:24:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My heart pours out for the CAF community. RIP to the aviators that succumbed to this accident. My first memory of 'Texas Raiders' was on September 20, 1997 when my Dad and I went to the CAF airshow in San Marcos. I toured the bomber along with several other aircraft, got a t-shirt, and had an absolute ball. Coincidentally, I witnessed a Pitts S-A2 fail to recover from a dive and crash. The pilot died from injuries sustained later that afternoon. I was at that airshow. I took a sequence of 35mm of the crash. It was a bad day. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:32:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like FiFi was getting ready to takeoff. (0:02)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtcHMOlUld0In the earlier videos, I thought "that's a lot of bank but not a lot of turn". You would normally lose altitude flying with a steep bank like this without corresponding elevator input to turn in a coordinated fashion. Also appears to my rookie eyes like he is in a high power setting and behind the airplane as far as trying to get it to turn. In this video, it looks like he started out high and indeed lost some altitude as he flew the turn. Also looked like he was cutting the corner compared to the other airplanes. Perhaps this is accounted for by the earlier statement that he was instructed to overtake the bomber, but if that is the case, knowing the airspeed differences, you would think you would first establish a visual, and then maintain a visual on it while performing the overtake. Lastly, in this video, it looks like a complete airborne clusterfuck. It wasn't formation flying, but it wasn't flying a pattern either because they would be in flights with the faster airplanes flying a wider pattern. It just looks like a mess of airplanes all too close together at different altitudes and airspeeds. RIP to the aviators and condolences to their friends and families. Ugh what a loss. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:33:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dallas Executive Airport. Same place the crash happened. Pic was taken Oct 30, 2016 Thank you. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:34:33 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was at that airshow. I took a sequence of 35mm of the crash. It was a bad day. I was also at that Airshow. (I was then and am with the CAF) |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:34:41 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I'm just jumping in this thread for the first time. Do we yet know the names of the pilots involved? Check your IM. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:34:47 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He was flying at 252mph at 600ft when he ran into the B-17. He exceeded the max speed for Class D airspace then. The Feds would've violated him and probably will still do, though posthumously. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:37:56 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He exceeded the max speed for Class D airspace then. The Feds would've violated him and probably will still do, though posthumously. It doesnt work that way at an airshow. Mudeagle is a leading expert in such things and explained a lot of it earlier. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:40:53 AM EDT
[#11]
- edited - |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:44:05 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryIdiot fight pilot wannabes. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:46:37 AM EDT
[#13]
Oh GOD no!!!
 
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:50:56 AM EDT
[#14]
My guess is the p63 pilot was old and something medically was happening and / or mechanical failure
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Posted: 11/13/2022 3:20:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like FiFi was getting ready to takeoff. (0:02) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtcHMOlUld0Was the fighter plane in a recoverable situation in the seconds before hitting the bomber? Looks like it would have hit the ground if it had not hit the bomber. Obviously, I am not a pilot. I live near Addison Airport. We see vintage aircraft of all kinds year around overhead. They are slow and loud. Prayers out to everyone involved. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 3:36:13 AM EDT
[#16]
     
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Posted: 11/13/2022 3:44:30 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, I fly some of the CAF bombers (B-24 and B-29, among others) at airshows and ride events throughout the country. I wasn't there today, although I was originally scheduled to fly the B-24 Diamond Lil in the show and had to back out due to conflict with my work schedule. Here's me flying Lil over OSH earlier this summer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470117/thumbnail_IMG_0659_jpg-2598279.JPG |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 4:16:19 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: video
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Posted: 11/13/2022 5:24:14 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, there is a specific "knock it off" and emergency recovery plan that is briefed every morning at the airboss briefing. In this case, there were other nearby airports where the rest of the airplanes recovered to, such as Lancaster. Glad to see you in this thread, man. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 5:34:26 AM EDT
[#22]
Sorry if I was a dick posting last night.
I didn’t know anyone in the planes but, for some reason, this hit me hard. Such an incredible loss. TC |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 5:35:11 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @MudEagle Do you fly B-29 FiFi at all? It's in this thread |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 6:00:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So sad. P-51 probably never saw the b17. Rest In Peace to everyone who lost their lives. ETA: some guy in the twitter replies keeps insisting everyone survived.  Quote HistoryQuoted: So sad. P-51 probably never saw the b17. Rest In Peace to everyone who lost their lives. ETA: some guy in the twitter replies keeps insisting everyone survived. Quoted: Some moron on Twitter was saying the pilots ejected too. Reminds me of a mid-air between two T-34's I saw at a small airshow in 1991. Both planes tangled up and fell to the ground. A woman standing next to me said, "Is that part of the show?" RIP and prayers for the crews of this terrible crash. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 7:33:07 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He exceeded the max speed for Class D airspace then. The Feds would've violated him and probably will still do, though posthumously. Airshows operate in FAA waivered airspace; it is no longer "Class D airspace" when that is occurring. The airspeed limits are waived for participating aircraft. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 7:34:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Really tough to watch these videos, prayers for all those involved.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 7:35:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @MudEagle Do you fly B-29 FiFi at all? Yep, just two weeks ago as a matter of fact. Going forward, I sure hope I am able to again. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 7:39:48 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My guess is the p63 pilot was old and something medically was happening and / or mechanical failure Neither of those things is probably causal. The P-63 pilot was an active United Airlines 777 pilot. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 7:46:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This witness said he heard the airshow coordinator on the radio tell the P-63 to overtake the B-17 If this is true, it is probably going to be a substantial factor here. As mentioned earlier, the deconfliction plan either uses split altitudes between the bombers and fighters, or geographic separation between the bombers and fighters. But, the air boss retains the ability to bring the fighters into the bomber block so that they can do lower/closer passes to the show line when the bombers are not occupying that space. Based on what we're seeing in the photos and videos, I am thinking it was an altitude deconfliction plan yesterday, but again I wasn't there and haven't seen any of the planning/briefing materials from the show. As of right now, I don't have anything relevant to pass on that my bros who were flying in the show have to say. They're being tight-lipped while talking to the FAA and NTSB, and I'm respecting that. None the less, if the report is true and the air boss told the P-63 he could be in the bomber airspace block, then that would explain a lot. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 7:52:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idiot fight pilot wannabes. Yeah, that has literally nothing to do with what occurred in the OSH accident in '07 or the midair yesterday. Are you familiar with the FAST formation qualifications that are required for warbird guys to fly in waivered airspace? Judging from your previous comment about Class D airspace, I'm guessing not. If you're actually interested in this topic, you may want to read FAA Order 8900 Vol 3, Chapter 6 (that covers the waivered airspace) and the Formation and Safety Team (FAST) formation guide. There a lot of depth to the training, planning, rules, and qualifications that goes substantially deeper than "fighter pilot wannabe" climbing in a former military airplane for egotistical reasons. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:09:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, just two weeks ago as a matter of fact. Going forward, I sure hope I am able to again. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:20:23 AM EDT
[#32]
The witness who heard the airshow coordinator on the radio tell the P-63 to overtake the B-17 is a good friend, I have flown with that witness many times
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:21:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The witness who heard the airshow coordinator on the radio tell the P-63 to overtake the B-17 is a good friend, I have flown with that witness many times  I believe your friend, it's just so hard to wrap my brain around all of this |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:25:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the WSJ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/113152/B0FB2A3F-6FEA-47A9-A6BC-54DD6EA7C0F2_jpe-2598207.JPG No other new information that I noticed in the article https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-world-war-ii-era-planes-collide-at-texas-airshow-11668289019 Oh man. It was Len. Damnit damnit damnit. He was a really cool guy. Super nice. Rode with him last year. I just realized I had a typo earlier when I asked if it was Ken R. I didn't notice autocorrect changed it to Ken. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:34:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh man. It was Len. Damnit damnit damnit. He was a really cool guy. Super nice. Rode with him last year. I just realized I had a typo earlier when I asked if it was Ken R. I didn't notice autocorrect changed it to Ken. Ah, F--k. I'm sorry, I wish I'd known that before I replied. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:35:21 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you fly her at the Mid-Alantic air show in June of this year? No. As you can imagine, there are lots of folks who want to fly at the Reading show, and I didn't make the roster to fly. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:39:30 AM EDT
[#37]
To those of you who lost friends in this incident, sorry for your loss.
I wish I had more than words of condolences for you. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 8:50:04 AM EDT
[#38]
Mistakes happen, even to experts. Dale Snodgrass forgot to put the gear down on a F-86 after an airshow, Bob Hoover taxied a P-51 into a parked Jeep at Reno.
How many of us don't have at least some experience in our respective field that isn't based on a mistake or near miss that would've seemed obvious to someone else? Condolences to those affected. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:05:28 AM EDT
[#39]
What an awful tragedy.
Sincere condolences to those who knew and/or flew with the men who lost their lives. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:15:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats a terrible loss both for life and aircraft |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:27:27 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mistakes happen, even to experts. Dale Snodgrass forgot to put the gear down on a F-86 after an airshow, Bob Hoover taxied a P-51 into a parked Jeep at Reno. How many of us don't have at least some experience in our respective field that isn't based on a mistake or near miss that would've seemed obvious to someone else? Condolences to those affected. RIP to Snodgrass too. He forgot to release the control lock on his aircraft, and he lost his life. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:28:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, F--k. I'm sorry, I wish I'd known that before I replied. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh man. It was Len. Damnit damnit damnit. He was a really cool guy. Super nice. Rode with him last year. I just realized I had a typo earlier when I asked if it was Ken R. I didn't notice autocorrect changed it to Ken. Ah, F--k. I'm sorry, I wish I'd known that before I replied. Not your fault. Did you know Len very well? I'm sorry for your loss. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:34:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RIP to Snodgrass too. He forgot to release the control lock on his aircraft, and he lost his life. Did they make a determination? I hadn't heard. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:38:39 AM EDT
[#44]
RIP to all involved.
Very clearly a case where the P-63 pilot was belly up to, and blind on, the B-17....co-altitude....his turn circle was larger than that of the B-17....and smack. It is very clearly the P-63 pilot's fault. While I don't want to speak ill of the dead, just some observations from a former fighter/attack guy. In the military, flying formation is taken extremely seriously and demands extraordinary discipline, not only in maneuvering your aircraft in close proximity to others, but also in maintaining situational awareness and executing set pre-briefed procedures in the event that you go 'blind' on any member within your flight or those you may be maneuvering against (basic fighter maneuvers, for example). I have no idea whether the pilot of the P-63 was former/current military or straight civilian, but these types of formation 'gaggles' make me VERY nervous. I have a friend who is former military (SF type) but didn't learn to fly in the military, and now participates in civilian formation flying in small single engine aircraft. I have tried to warn him that even we military-trained guys F it up on occasion, and even if he maintains strict flight discipline....I wouldn't trust 95% of the average Joe Bagadonuts who is a straight civilian pilot to fly in close formation with me, especially when it is more than two aircraft. Bottom line, absolute tragedy and prayers to the crews family and friends. Fate is the hunter. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:52:04 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking at all the flight tracks, there was no consistent altitude for either the larger or smaller planes each pass. The smaller planes were consistently running tighter turns between passes. The pass prior to the one with the crash the small planes were higher. this is what I meant by 'pattern'. the air show pattern, the crowd's view leg, the main drag... all the planes are sharing the basic same path over the field at one key point (for the crowd)... hard not to, recall the twin engine that overcame the c150 on approach in california this year? 200kts? vying for the same space I think when you have 15 planes in various circuits converging towards a narrow path there's always gonna be potential for loss of visual because of blindspots, turn tighter than the rest of the group and now you don't see them. I'm explaining to understand better I believe. RIP |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:54:10 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RIP to all involved. Very clearly a case where the P-63 pilot was belly up to, and blind on, the B-17....co-altitude....his turn circle was larger than that of the B-17....and smack. It is very clearly the P-63 pilot's fault. While I don't want to speak ill of the dead, just some observations from a former fighter/attack guy. In the military, flying formation is taken extremely seriously and demands extraordinary discipline, not only in maneuvering your aircraft in close proximity to others, but also in maintaining situational awareness and executing set pre-briefed procedures in the event that you go 'blind' on any member within your flight or those you may be maneuvering against (basic fighter maneuvers, for example). I have no idea whether the pilot of the P-63 was former/current military or straight civilian, but these types of formation 'gaggles' make me VERY nervous. I have a friend who is former military (SF type) but didn't learn to fly in the military, and now participates in civilian formation flying in small single engine aircraft. I have tried to warn him that even we military-trained guys F it up on occasion, and even if he maintains strict flight discipline....I wouldn't trust 95% of the average Joe Bagadonuts who is a straight civilian pilot to fly in close formation with me, especially when it is more than two aircraft. Bottom line, absolute tragedy and prayers to the crews family and friends. Fate is the hunter. There's a group of pilots in my area that I've seen on more than one occasion doing 2, 3, and sometimes 4-ship formation flights in dissimilar GA aircraft. Don't know their background or what the reason behind it. If I'm outside I'll stop and watch, especially when they're doing it over my neighborhood. I do always hope nobody screws up. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 9:56:56 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you're going to find out there were other human errors going on here related to bad judgment calls, and not anyone intentionally not following a procedure. yep, sadly, a series of errors where just one of them wouldn't equate to disaster, but compiled together..... |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:14:20 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit It reminds me of combat footage of bombers being taken out and falling to the earth in pieces RIP to those involved Ya we've all seen that stuff over the years, it's alot different seeing it in HD in practically real time. My dad said they would pass around a bottle before mounting up, I can see why. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:16:14 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I lost some friends in that B-17 today. I’m sorry for your loss
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:23:02 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m sorry for your loss 2 |
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