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Posted: 11/27/2016 9:31:47 PM EDT
[#1]
My buddy has one. Its cool but a pump gun is way cheaper and just as effective.
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Posted: 11/27/2016 9:46:07 PM EDT
[#2]
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My buddy has one. Its cool but a pump gun is way cheaper and just as effective. Having run timed drills with semi-autos vs. pumps doing realistic shooting tasks (multiple targets, speed loading, etc) I have to say this is true. The semi-auto is faster to dump rounds with and you don't have to worry about short stroking the gun as you try to cycle the action. It's also easier to use the semi-auto with one hand. But I've watched skilled shooters with an 870 perform every bit as well (often even better) than pretty skilled guys with a semi-auto. I've personally had my clock cleaned by a couple of members of the Oconee County S.O. running pump guns against my 1301. I could empty my gun on a single target faster than them, but give us targets with a decent amount of space between them and it was pretty much even in terms of transitions between them. When you factor in transitions between targets, emergency loading, etc in practical terms the pump gun is just as fast. |
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Posted: 11/27/2016 11:44:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Having run timed drills with semi-autos vs. pumps doing realistic shooting tasks (multiple targets, speed loading, etc) I have to say this is true. The semi-auto is faster to dump rounds with and you don't have to worry about short stroking the gun as you try to cycle the action. It's also easier to use the semi-auto with one hand. But I've watched skilled shooters with an 870 perform every bit as well (often even better) than pretty skilled guys with a semi-auto. I've personally had my clock cleaned by a couple of members of the Oconee County S.O. running pump guns against my 1301. I could empty my gun on a single target faster than them, but give us targets with a decent amount of space between them and it was pretty much even in terms of transitions between them. When you factor in transitions between targets, emergency loading, etc in practical terms the pump gun is just as fast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My buddy has one. Its cool but a pump gun is way cheaper and just as effective. Having run timed drills with semi-autos vs. pumps doing realistic shooting tasks (multiple targets, speed loading, etc) I have to say this is true. The semi-auto is faster to dump rounds with and you don't have to worry about short stroking the gun as you try to cycle the action. It's also easier to use the semi-auto with one hand. But I've watched skilled shooters with an 870 perform every bit as well (often even better) than pretty skilled guys with a semi-auto. I've personally had my clock cleaned by a couple of members of the Oconee County S.O. running pump guns against my 1301. I could empty my gun on a single target faster than them, but give us targets with a decent amount of space between them and it was pretty much even in terms of transitions between them. When you factor in transitions between targets, emergency loading, etc in practical terms the pump gun is just as fast. I think the main thing is doing well with a pump versus a really good semi-auto is like doing well with a manual versus the cutting edge autos in the newer Corvettes, Hellcats, etc. It takes a lot of practice and perfecting of your technique, and even then, you only really tie it up with the auto at best. You make one mistake one time, the consistency of the auto pulls ahead if it wasn't ahead already. Some people practice like crazy; I'm not one of them. Me with my M4 Super90 can get more shots on target, faster, and more accurately than me with my M590a1. It lets me shoot as well as I would with the 590 if I put a LOT more practice into the 590. While simultaneously being at least as reliable. There's also the factor of the way ARGO works, there's less felt recoil per shot. Even with a perfect pump while shooting the 590, I find it easier to get back on target faster with the M4. It takes a decent bite out of the punch of full power buck or a slug. |
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Posted: 11/27/2016 11:50:29 PM EDT
[#4]
M2/slp for life
That m4 stock doe |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 1:58:32 AM EDT
[#5]
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OK , let me know who painted that. I would like to give them a call.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK , let me know who painted that. I would like to give them a call. 1-800-KRYLON, ask for Mr. Laundrybag |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 3:05:24 AM EDT
[#6]
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All right, who makes that rail? I have the Surefire...but your's is way sexier.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
All right, who makes that rail? I have the Surefire...but your's is way sexier. B&T |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 10:16:20 AM EDT
[#7]
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B&T Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All right, who makes that rail? I have the Surefire...but your's is way sexier. B&T THX (again  )!
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Posted: 11/28/2016 6:51:50 PM EDT
[#8]
I just picked one up over the weekend after wanting one for about 6-7 years. Made a decent chunk of money on an AK so I decided I would get it.
I ran about 75 rounds of mixed buck, slugs and birdshot. Slugs and buck ran fine. The shot I was using was the cheapest/lightest stuff I had laying aroun (Winchester 3 gun) and it would cycle about 7 out of every 8. Had FTE,FTF and stovepipe of the spent hull. I've got a case of buckshot here that Im going to run through it after I give it a cleaning and see how it handles birdshot after that. I think anything in the 1200fps+ range should cycle just fine. I've got an M2 that is use for 3 gun and probably have about 4-5K rounds through it. The recoil on the M4 is noticeably less, but also weighs a little more. Im happy with it so far, but am going to get the C-stock and the daves metal works tube and see what it feels like. |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 6:59:14 PM EDT
[#9]
M2 would be better because of the aftermarket support. I have a salient m2, and sold a m4 because at the time (4-5 years ago) there just wasnt much for it. It was a great shotgun, and could pound some slugs down range with that thing, but again, no aftermarket support, meant not too much in the 3 gun world could be done with it.
It ran great on the sporting clays range or skeet field. Every once in a while i would trade in the citori for it and shoot 400 shells in a day with it and it always ran fine. Defintely did not like the ghost rings for actually shooting birds, but when you show up to a clays course with that thing, people would give me the funniest looks. 
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Posted: 11/28/2016 7:06:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M2 would be better because of the aftermarket support. I have a salient m2, and sold a m4 because at the time (4-5 years ago) there just wasnt much for it. It was a great shotgun, and could pound some slugs down range with that thing, but again, no aftermarket support, meant not too much in the 3 gun world could be done with it. It ran great on the sporting clays range or skeet field. Every once in a while i would trade in the citori for it and shoot 400 shells in a day with it and it always ran fine. Defintely did not like the ghost rings for actually shooting birds, but when you show up to a clays course with that thing, people would give me the funniest looks. I have a bad habit of focusing on the front sight when I'm wingshooting but I still get lucky sometimes, even with ghost rings 
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Posted: 11/28/2016 7:07:28 PM EDT
[#11]
I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it.
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Posted: 11/28/2016 7:44:12 PM EDT
[#12]
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 7:51:14 PM EDT
[#13]
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Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. I carried a few shotgun rounds while fighting with a 1014 and it was lighter than my primary SAW and 1200 RDS. Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 8:58:35 PM EDT
[#14]
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SAW and 1200 RDS Quote HistoryQuoted:
SAW and 1200 RDS Ugh. Haven't ever carried that, but I have done a 14-pound rifle with 500 rounds of .308. Carrying a ripped midget around everywhere gets exhausting after a while. Quoted:
Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had For sure. With slugs, a feel for the trajectory, and a decent optic, it's completely usable as a .73 caliber rifle out to around 150-200 yards. Limited capacity, but at least you know if you get a hit, they sure as shit won't get back up.
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Posted: 11/28/2016 8:59:12 PM EDT
[#15]
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I carried a few shotgun rounds while fighting with a 1014 and it was lighter than my primary SAW and 1200 RDS. Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. I carried a few shotgun rounds while fighting with a 1014 and it was lighter than my primary SAW and 1200 RDS. Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had I like the way you roll Postman. 
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Posted: 11/28/2016 9:12:53 PM EDT
[#16]
I looked long and hard at the Benelli M4, but the initial price,. plus the correct stock, plus a new mag tube was just too much to swallow. Instead I bought a Benelli M2 Tactical at a good price on Gunbroker. I bought a Dave's Metal Works Mag Tube Extension, a Mesa Tactical Urbanio Stock, a tactical bolt handle and bolt release, and a Mesa Tactical shot shell side saddle. I also bought a Geissile hammer to take care of 922 issues. All told I have just a shade over a grand in the shotgun. I feel like I saved myself at least $500. But YMMV.
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Posted: 11/28/2016 9:19:02 PM EDT
[#17]
I carried mine in Fallujah for a week. It was great for shooting at cars and blowing doors, but not so great for firefights.
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Posted: 11/28/2016 9:20:57 PM EDT
[#18]
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I carried a few shotgun rounds while fighting with a 1014 and it was lighter than my primary SAW and 1200 RDS. Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. I carried a few shotgun rounds while fighting with a 1014 and it was lighter than my primary SAW and 1200 RDS. Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had Not exactly the same as 200 rds and an M4... So how was it engaging tgts out past 200meters with that shotgun...
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Posted: 11/28/2016 9:44:26 PM EDT
[#19]
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Not exactly the same as 200 rds and an M4... So how was it engaging tgts out past 200meters with that shotgun...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. I carried a few shotgun rounds while fighting with a 1014 and it was lighter than my primary SAW and 1200 RDS. Definitely not my first choice as an end of the world, postman gun but I wouldn't cry if that's what I had Not exactly the same as 200 rds and an M4... So how was it engaging tgts out past 200meters with that shotgun...
That didn't happen very often in Fallujah. If it did, either some one else got it, or I used my SAW |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 9:46:06 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. My job is primary pistol and shotgun so
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Posted: 11/28/2016 9:48:44 PM EDT
[#21]
If I had a rifle squad on my team I wouldn't mind fighting with a shotgun nearly as much.
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Posted: 11/28/2016 10:26:02 PM EDT
[#22]
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If I had a rifle squad on my team I wouldn't mind fighting with a shotgun nearly as much. That's a really important point on why a shotgun in a squad isn't a horrible idea. All alone? Not my first choice. I'd much prefer my M1
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Posted: 11/28/2016 10:32:48 PM EDT
[#23]
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That's a really important point on why a shotgun in a squad isn't a horrible idea. All alone? Not my first choice. I'd much prefer my M1 That's the great thing about the M1, you can use a great rifle or a great shotgun, and still saying you're using your M1. 
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Posted: 11/28/2016 10:59:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Not a great comparison, each shell has 9-15 projectiles in it between 30 and 33 caliber. A full magazine + ghost load has 10 shells or 90 33-caliber pellets. All released in a nano-second by a skilled shotgun person. That means your probability of hitting something with just one shot is much higher than just one shot of a conventional rifle. Especially on a moving target. You compare 223 to 7.62 but one shot of 12 gauge to one shot of 223 is not a valid comparison. Looking at an AR15 from the end end is scary but if someone engages you with a 00 buckshot or #1 or #2 or hell even #4, you run like a ____ <fill in the blank> |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:02:07 PM EDT
[#25]
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M4 porn... <a href="http://s921.photobucket.com/user/calviroman/media/M4S90/20160514_142441_zpssjt63idp.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad51/calviroman/M4S90/20160514_142441_zpssjt63idp.jpg</a> <a href="http://s921.photobucket.com/user/calviroman/media/M4S90/20160514_142508_zpsrgtrdcul.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad51/calviroman/M4S90/20160514_142508_zpsrgtrdcul.jpg</a> <a href="http://s921.photobucket.com/user/calviroman/media/M4S90/20140726_113855_zps8cbe7246.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad51/calviroman/M4S90/20140726_113855_zps8cbe7246.jpg</a> <a href="http://s921.photobucket.com/user/calviroman/media/M4S90/20161113_154610_zpsih8ba6eb.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad51/calviroman/M4S90/20161113_154610_zpsih8ba6eb.jpg</a> <a href="http://s921.photobucket.com/user/calviroman/media/M4S90/20161113_154626_zps1lozltxb.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad51/calviroman/M4S90/20161113_154626_zps1lozltxb.jpg</a> <a href="http://s921.photobucket.com/user/calviroman/media/M4S90/DSCN2875_zps4d3b46ec.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad51/calviroman/M4S90/DSCN2875_zps4d3b46ec.jpg</a> I see a Malkoff devices module... Let me guess, M61? |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:06:31 PM EDT
[#26]
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Will the Versa Max Tactical accept the M4 collapsible stock? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you can deal with minor quality control issues, Remington Versa Max Tactical is an improvement upon M4 in every way: No 922 issues to deal with Higher capacity, 8 vs 7 (or 5 with the capped magazine) Can take 3.5" shells Feeds birdshot reliably Even less recoil No issues with the picatinny rail and you can install Benelli m4 stock onto VMT, making it a Remelli (or Bemington) Supposedly the bolt fits as well. Look at it this way, VMT can take 7 3" shells while M4 can take 7 2-3/4" shells, at best. Now SBS M4 has absurdly low capacity.. .4+1+1, I don't think so. Shotguns already have very low capacity to begin with. sure I would love to own an M4 but to me it's not worth more than about a grand which is what VMT goes for. M4 price is just pure politics, same reason HK91 goes for 3 grand. Import problems and legal stuff and dealing with HK. It's really just a $900 piece at best IMO. In the 3-gun scene, VMT is a lot more popular than M4, that tells you something. Remelli - 9 round magazine upgrade, Comp M4, and M4 fixed pistol grip stock. <a href="http://s182.photobucket.com/user/dictum9/media/hardware/VM1_zps8b8simbf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x260/dictum9/hardware/VM1_zps8b8simbf.jpg</a> VMT is at the a href="http://s182.photobucket.com/user/dictum9/media/hardware/versa_max_sling1_zps5wck854k.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x260/dictum9/hardware/versa_max_sling1_zps5wck854k.jpg</a> Will the Versa Max Tactical accept the M4 collapsible stock? Good question. A quick scan reveals that VMT will accept a Urbino stock but not sure about M4. I like fixed PG M4 stock and it goes perfectly onto the VMT. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that. |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:10:57 PM EDT
[#27]
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+1 Mine loves the Federal #1 with the flight control wad. GREAT patterns at long distances. Only problem is both Federal and Winchester #1 shells all seem to be out of spec for 2 3/4" lengthwise and thus you can't fit a full 7 in the tube, just 6. Remington #1s fit just fine though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It can make life miserable for grapefruit size targets at 100yds with just the ghost ring sights and cheap foster slugs. Also, throws a better pattern with buckshot than the hunting shotguns I have owned. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b285/williamN01/nellirmr1%20Small_zpsrq2ss0qx.jpg +1 Mine loves the Federal #1 with the flight control wad. GREAT patterns at long distances. Only problem is both Federal and Winchester #1 shells all seem to be out of spec for 2 3/4" lengthwise and thus you can't fit a full 7 in the tube, just 6. Remington #1s fit just fine though. Problem with Fed #1 is that they are all low-recoil which doesn't make sense in a low-recoiling semiauto. You are losing easily 200 fps for no reason. If they kept the original velocity #1 would have made more sense. But smaller diameter pellets lose velocity faster than larger pellets and when you start 200 fps slower, you are at a disavantage over 00 buck. If anything, #1 should have been faster than 00 buck, not slower. Secondly, there was that review that Fed #1 flight control is really closer to #2 in diameter... |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:13:44 PM EDT
[#28]
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Not a great comparison, each shell has 9-15 projectiles in it between 30 and 33 caliber. A full magazine + ghost load has 10 shells or 90 33-caliber pellets. All released in a nano-second by a skilled shotgun person. That means your probability of hitting something with just one shot is much higher than just one shot of a conventional rifle. Especially on a moving target. You compare 223 to 7.62 but one shot of 12 gauge to one shot of 223 is not a valid comparison. Looking at an AR15 from the end end is scary but if someone engages you with a 00 buckshot or #1 or #2 or hell even #4, you run like a ____ <fill in the blank> Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Not a great comparison, each shell has 9-15 projectiles in it between 30 and 33 caliber. A full magazine + ghost load has 10 shells or 90 33-caliber pellets. All released in a nano-second by a skilled shotgun person. That means your probability of hitting something with just one shot is much higher than just one shot of a conventional rifle. Especially on a moving target. You compare 223 to 7.62 but one shot of 12 gauge to one shot of 223 is not a valid comparison. Looking at an AR15 from the end end is scary but if someone engages you with a 00 buckshot or #1 or #2 or hell even #4, you run like a ____ <fill in the blank> Why is that those who like shotguns, always assume that those of us who do not, know nothing about Them... Because I'm no stranger to a shotgun, is one of the best reasons why I'm not a big fan of them. They are not the room clearing magic weapon that everyone things they are. They have a narrow niche where they excel, beyond that, they lost their appeal real quick. You can miss real fast with a 00 Buck at room distances. Unlike most shot gun fan boys, I have patterned a lot of shot guns and can see for my self how tight most of them hold their pattern. and a .33 pellet looses steam awfully fast out past 50 yds. The M4 falls into the Niche category for me... |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:16:43 PM EDT
[#29]
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Problem with Fed #1 is that they are all low-recoil which doesn't make sense in a low-recoiling semiauto. You are losing easily 200 fps for no reason. If they kept the original velocity #1 would have made more sense. But smaller diameter pellets lose velocity faster than larger pellets and when you start 200 fps slower, you are at a disavantage over 00 buck. If anything, #1 should have been faster than 00 buck, not slower. Secondly, there was that review that Fed #1 flight control is really closer to #2 in diameter... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It can make life miserable for grapefruit size targets at 100yds with just the ghost ring sights and cheap foster slugs. Also, throws a better pattern with buckshot than the hunting shotguns I have owned. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b285/williamN01/nellirmr1%20Small_zpsrq2ss0qx.jpg +1 Mine loves the Federal #1 with the flight control wad. GREAT patterns at long distances. Only problem is both Federal and Winchester #1 shells all seem to be out of spec for 2 3/4" lengthwise and thus you can't fit a full 7 in the tube, just 6. Remington #1s fit just fine though. Problem with Fed #1 is that they are all low-recoil which doesn't make sense in a low-recoiling semiauto. You are losing easily 200 fps for no reason. If they kept the original velocity #1 would have made more sense. But smaller diameter pellets lose velocity faster than larger pellets and when you start 200 fps slower, you are at a disavantage over 00 buck. If anything, #1 should have been faster than 00 buck, not slower. Secondly, there was that review that Fed #1 flight control is really closer to #2 in diameter... My 590 is loaded with hornady #4 buck in their versa tight wad. |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:17:41 PM EDT
[#30]
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Why is that those who like shotguns, always assume that those of us who do not, know nothing about Them... Because I'm no stranger to a shotgun, is one of the best reasons why I'm not a big fan of them. They are not the room clearing magic weapon that everyone things they are. They have a narrow niche where they excel, beyond that, they lost their appeal real quick. You can miss real fast with a 00 Buck at room distances. Unlike most shot gun fan boys, I have patterned a lot of shot guns and can see for my self how tight most of them hold their pattern. and a .33 pellet looses steam awfully fast out past 50 yds. The M4 falls into the Niche category for me... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Not a great comparison, each shell has 9-15 projectiles in it between 30 and 33 caliber. A full magazine + ghost load has 10 shells or 90 33-caliber pellets. All released in a nano-second by a skilled shotgun person. That means your probability of hitting something with just one shot is much higher than just one shot of a conventional rifle. Especially on a moving target. You compare 223 to 7.62 but one shot of 12 gauge to one shot of 223 is not a valid comparison. Looking at an AR15 from the end end is scary but if someone engages you with a 00 buckshot or #1 or #2 or hell even #4, you run like a ____ <fill in the blank> Why is that those who like shotguns, always assume that those of us who do not, know nothing about Them... Because I'm no stranger to a shotgun, is one of the best reasons why I'm not a big fan of them. They are not the room clearing magic weapon that everyone things they are. They have a narrow niche where they excel, beyond that, they lost their appeal real quick. You can miss real fast with a 00 Buck at room distances. Unlike most shot gun fan boys, I have patterned a lot of shot guns and can see for my self how tight most of them hold their pattern. and a .33 pellet looses steam awfully fast out past 50 yds. The M4 falls into the Niche category for me... Totally agree |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 11:29:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Legit shotguns but most of the guys who buy them just fondle them and resell them NIB a few years later.
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Posted: 11/29/2016 3:06:57 AM EDT
[#32]
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Legit shotguns but most of the guys who buy them just fondle them and resell them NIB a few years later. That can be said about most guns and owners, we are not all living like hickok45 with a private range next to the house with sponsored ammo. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 3:10:41 AM EDT
[#33]
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Why is that those who like shotguns, always assume that those of us who do not, know nothing about Them... Because I'm no stranger to a shotgun, is one of the best reasons why I'm not a big fan of them. They are not the room clearing magic weapon that everyone things they are. They have a narrow niche where they excel, beyond that, they lost their appeal real quick. You can miss real fast with a 00 Buck at room distances. Unlike most shot gun fan boys, I have patterned a lot of shot guns and can see for my self how tight most of them hold their pattern. and a .33 pellet looses steam awfully fast out past 50 yds. The M4 falls into the Niche category for me... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Not a great comparison, each shell has 9-15 projectiles in it between 30 and 33 caliber. A full magazine + ghost load has 10 shells or 90 33-caliber pellets. All released in a nano-second by a skilled shotgun person. That means your probability of hitting something with just one shot is much higher than just one shot of a conventional rifle. Especially on a moving target. You compare 223 to 7.62 but one shot of 12 gauge to one shot of 223 is not a valid comparison. Looking at an AR15 from the end end is scary but if someone engages you with a 00 buckshot or #1 or #2 or hell even #4, you run like a ____ <fill in the blank> Why is that those who like shotguns, always assume that those of us who do not, know nothing about Them... Because I'm no stranger to a shotgun, is one of the best reasons why I'm not a big fan of them. They are not the room clearing magic weapon that everyone things they are. They have a narrow niche where they excel, beyond that, they lost their appeal real quick. You can miss real fast with a 00 Buck at room distances. Unlike most shot gun fan boys, I have patterned a lot of shot guns and can see for my self how tight most of them hold their pattern. and a .33 pellet looses steam awfully fast out past 50 yds. The M4 falls into the Niche category for me... And you can miss even faster with one .22 cal bullet at room distances. Anyone who shoots knows you still need to aim and IDK what kind of house you live in but I don't have 50 yard long rooms lol |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 3:11:10 AM EDT
[#34]
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Legit shotguns but most of the guys who buy them just fondle them and resell them NIB a few years later. Well, you could say that about most ARs too, to be completely truthful. There's also the factor of the iron grip of the Fudd scum may have been significantly loosened on the rifle ranges over the past decade as the AR-15 has taken off in popularity, but they're still alive and well on a shitload of shotgun ranges and holding on to their ways for dear life. Most of the ranges near me except one that's an expensive membership-only range won't allow me to shoot my M4 or my 590. I have to drive a ways just to get to a "slugs only and only on the rifle range if you gots yourself a 'riot' gun" range. Further than that to actually shoot my fucking shotguns the way I want. Doesn't exactly make it convenient. 
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Posted: 11/29/2016 3:50:27 AM EDT
[#35]
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I have a bad habit of focusing on the front sight when I'm wingshooting but I still get lucky sometimes, even with ghost rings http://i64.tinypic.com/15o9svs.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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M2 would be better because of the aftermarket support. I have a salient m2, and sold a m4 because at the time (4-5 years ago) there just wasnt much for it. It was a great shotgun, and could pound some slugs down range with that thing, but again, no aftermarket support, meant not too much in the 3 gun world could be done with it. It ran great on the sporting clays range or skeet field. Every once in a while i would trade in the citori for it and shoot 400 shells in a day with it and it always ran fine. Defintely did not like the ghost rings for actually shooting birds, but when you show up to a clays course with that thing, people would give me the funniest looks. I have a bad habit of focusing on the front sight when I'm wingshooting but I still get lucky sometimes, even with ghost rings http://i64.tinypic.com/15o9svs.jpg Dog: "I'll eat that if you don't want it." |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 3:55:45 AM EDT
[#36]
I'd love an m4 but I'm a happy camper so far with my m1s90 which I got for $325 at a pawn shop who mislabeled it as a Mossberg 590A1.
Dyslexic space nazis do exist in pawn shops. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 4:27:14 AM EDT
[#37]
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I carried mine in Fallujah for a week. It was great for shooting at cars and blowing doors, but not so great for firefights. One of our gunners (Army, M590A1, Iraq) had some less lethal rounds (rubber slugs). We always prodded him to shoot some at cars instead of throwing things (just to see what they'd do). He finally did and they were totally ineffective: too quiet for drivers to hear and they didn't do any/much damage so the Iraqis didn't seem to care. Back to water bottles, caltrops and rocks/bricks. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 5:53:03 AM EDT
[#38]
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Totally agree Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love my benelli M4 and wouldn't mind carrying it over an AR. Its a freaking zombie you can't kill it. Try carrying 200 shotgun rds....I'll do the same in 5.56mm
I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle that is my do everything hunting/Sporting clays shotgun... I would have no use for a fighting shotgun. Not a great comparison, each shell has 9-15 projectiles in it between 30 and 33 caliber. A full magazine + ghost load has 10 shells or 90 33-caliber pellets. All released in a nano-second by a skilled shotgun person. That means your probability of hitting something with just one shot is much higher than just one shot of a conventional rifle. Especially on a moving target. You compare 223 to 7.62 but one shot of 12 gauge to one shot of 223 is not a valid comparison. Looking at an AR15 from the end end is scary but if someone engages you with a 00 buckshot or #1 or #2 or hell even #4, you run like a ____ <fill in the blank> Why is that those who like shotguns, always assume that those of us who do not, know nothing about Them... Because I'm no stranger to a shotgun, is one of the best reasons why I'm not a big fan of them. They are not the room clearing magic weapon that everyone things they are. They have a narrow niche where they excel, beyond that, they lost their appeal real quick. You can miss real fast with a 00 Buck at room distances. Unlike most shot gun fan boys, I have patterned a lot of shot guns and can see for my self how tight most of them hold their pattern. and a .33 pellet looses steam awfully fast out past 50 yds. The M4 falls into the Niche category for me... Totally agree I like tight patterning loads like with the flite control wad, they are easily good out to 50 yards, I've even scored hits well beyond that. Yeah at room distances they produce patterns like a half dollar at most, like a rifle. If you want a different pattern, try the non-FC loads. 3" magnum with 15 pelllets, 9 of these in your magazine. That's the point you can vary the loads easily, or switch to copper slugs that will penetrate barriers and stuff. You do have to aim with both but a shotty gives you a littler larger room for error. It's the whole multiple projectile thing. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 8:54:36 AM EDT
[#39]
You mean you can switch to different ammunition? That's amazing!!!
Or I can press the trigger on my AR....more then once....with barrier blind ammunition. You can have your shotgun....I'll just keep using mine....for Squirrels and such... |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 10:12:18 AM EDT
[#40]
My LGS has a SBS version with stock for 2800.
That's pre-NFA tax, of course. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 10:20:04 AM EDT
[#41]
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You mean you can switch to different ammunition? That's amazing!!!
Or I can press the trigger on my AR....more then once....with barrier blind ammunition. You can have your shotgun....I'll just keep using mine....for Squirrels and such... I like using my m1 for snowshoe hares. 
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Posted: 11/29/2016 10:28:04 AM EDT
[#42]
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You mean you can switch to different ammunition? That's amazing!!!
Or I can press the trigger on my AR....more then once....with barrier blind ammunition. You can have your shotgun....I'll just keep using mine....for Squirrels and such... I like using my m1 for snowshoe hares. http://i64.tinypic.com/nwaao0.jpg The front fell off..... |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 12:04:27 PM EDT
[#43]
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Having run timed drills with semi-autos vs. pumps doing realistic shooting tasks (multiple targets, speed loading, etc) I have to say this is true. The semi-auto is faster to dump rounds with and you don't have to worry about short stroking the gun as you try to cycle the action. It's also easier to use the semi-auto with one hand. But I've watched skilled shooters with an 870 perform every bit as well (often even better) than pretty skilled guys with a semi-auto. I've personally had my clock cleaned by a couple of members of the Oconee County S.O. running pump guns against my 1301. I could empty my gun on a single target faster than them, but give us targets with a decent amount of space between them and it was pretty much even in terms of transitions between them. When you factor in transitions between targets, emergency loading, etc in practical terms the pump gun is just as fast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My buddy has one. Its cool but a pump gun is way cheaper and just as effective. Having run timed drills with semi-autos vs. pumps doing realistic shooting tasks (multiple targets, speed loading, etc) I have to say this is true. The semi-auto is faster to dump rounds with and you don't have to worry about short stroking the gun as you try to cycle the action. It's also easier to use the semi-auto with one hand. But I've watched skilled shooters with an 870 perform every bit as well (often even better) than pretty skilled guys with a semi-auto. I've personally had my clock cleaned by a couple of members of the Oconee County S.O. running pump guns against my 1301. I could empty my gun on a single target faster than them, but give us targets with a decent amount of space between them and it was pretty much even in terms of transitions between them. When you factor in transitions between targets, emergency loading, etc in practical terms the pump gun is just as fast. In no world will a "skilled" pump SG shooter beat a semi with the same level of skills, trigger time is faster on a semi and reloading is a wash. I do not agree with you. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 12:08:55 PM EDT
[#44]
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In no world will a "skilled" pump SG shooter beat a semi with the same level of skills, trigger time is faster on a semi and reloading is a wash. I do not agree with you. I've shot more than a few "action" stages/matches with pumps and autos. With a few widely spaced targets, it's possible (but not likely). With targets closer together, or more than 4-5 of them, the auto is going to win handily. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 12:34:39 PM EDT
[#45]
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In no world will a "skilled" pump SG shooter beat a semi with the same level of skills, trigger time is faster on a semi and reloading is a wash. I do not agree with you. I've watched it happen several times. Note the term "realistic shooting tasks" in my post. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 1:28:26 PM EDT
[#46]
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The problem isn't 922(r) in and of itself; it's a charge that will be added to the other charge(s) should something go awry. Yep. It's something they'll find while investigating something else. Also, any SBS'd shotguns still have to comply with 922(r) |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 1:43:55 PM EDT
[#47]
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Overpriced... Remington VersaMax uses the exact same gas system and is half the price. Cheap knockoffs are rarely as good as the original. |
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Posted: 11/29/2016 4:28:31 PM EDT
[#48]
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I've watched it happen several times. Note the term "realistic shooting tasks" in my post. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In no world will a "skilled" pump SG shooter beat a semi with the same level of skills, trigger time is faster on a semi and reloading is a wash. I do not agree with you. I've watched it happen several times. Note the term "realistic shooting tasks" in my post. You've watched people that are exactly the same skill level and the pump was faster, OK |
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Posted: 11/30/2016 12:04:27 AM EDT
[#49]
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Cheap knockoffs are rarely as good as the original. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Overpriced... Remington VersaMax uses the exact same gas system and is half the price. Cheap knockoffs are rarely as good as the original. I shoot a lot of 3 gun in a lot of different states and have seen a lot of VersaMax guns shit the bed. With the exception of the JM Pro, it is the one shotgun that I will never own and never recommend anyone buy unless your willing to spend hours and $$ on parts troubleshooting a brand new gun.....and never be able to trust it. ETA: Check out some other forums discussing the issues and the top suggestion it to replace springs and hard parts with Benelli factory parts. |
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Posted: 11/30/2016 7:49:04 AM EDT
[#50]
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You've watched people that are exactly the same skill level and the pump was faster, OK Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In no world will a "skilled" pump SG shooter beat a semi with the same level of skills, trigger time is faster on a semi and reloading is a wash. I do not agree with you. I've watched it happen several times. Note the term "realistic shooting tasks" in my post. You've watched people that are exactly the same skill level and the pump was faster, OK He probably means engaging multiple targets with enough distance between them that transition between them negates the semi-auto's speed advantages. Even so, again, as much as I love my 590, I would take my M4 with the quicker return to target and lower recoil every time if you told me I was going to have to fight actual humans who are trying to kill me rather than paper and I had to pick one of them to defend myself with. If nothing else, the M4 spanks the hell out of any pump I've ever used on the ability to do controlled double-taps. All the shifting of your arm's mass and force to cycle the weapon can instead be devoted 100% to controlling your aim. |
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