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Posted: 10/20/2012 9:36:50 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I remember this when it first came out. You know this woman spent her husband's entire career ruining the lives of anyone subordinate to him. I'd bet she was a nightmare for his platoon sergeant when the dude was a butter bar.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

This is what really bother me the most when senior people are found to have such... issues

I still hold that these incident should warrant an immediate review of the files and potential promotions or education opportunities lost by all people he has senior rated his entire career.

I spent a fair bit of time around army officers, and on average they have as many issues as anyone else (human problems, not army/officer issues) and a belief that they are inherently superior to everyone else. This is a generalization, of course, and not meant to describe all of them.

My ex-wife was a Cpt., and even knowing I had been an enlisted soldier before we met didn't stop her from speaking of enlisted soldiers like they were barely human, in spite of the fact that her own father (her inspiration for wanting to be an army officer in the first place) came up through the ranks to get a commission.

It continues to amaze me what some people can spin into an officer vs. enlisted issue.

Has it occurred to you that your opinion and your wife's were both based on the same tribal / stereotype thinking, but coming from different perspectives?

Stereotypes are things you apply to people you have not taken the time to get to know. They tend not to be used between people who know each other intimately.

Yes, and...?

I was countering the dumbass implication that I applied a stereotype to the person I was married to and people who were in my home on a regular basis, that's what.

Posted: 10/20/2012 9:36:56 AM EDT

[#2]

If you want to have the same rank as your husband join the Salvation Army.

Posted: 10/20/2012 9:38:57 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I remember this when it first came out. You know this woman spent her husband's entire career ruining the lives of anyone subordinate to him. I'd bet she was a nightmare for his platoon sergeant when the dude was a butter bar.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

This is what really bother me the most when senior people are found to have such... issues

I still hold that these incident should warrant an immediate review of the files and potential promotions or education opportunities lost by all people he has senior rated his entire career.

I spent a fair bit of time around army officers, and on average they have as many issues as anyone else (human problems, not army/officer issues) and a belief that they are inherently superior to everyone else. This is a generalization, of course, and not meant to describe all of them.

My ex-wife was a Cpt., and even knowing I had been an enlisted soldier before we met didn't stop her from speaking of enlisted soldiers like they were barely human, in spite of the fact that her own father (her inspiration for wanting to be an army officer in the first place) came up through the ranks to get a commission.

It continues to amaze me what some people can spin into an officer vs. enlisted issue.

Has it occurred to you that your opinion and your wife's were both based on the same tribal / stereotype thinking, but coming from different perspectives?

Stereotypes are things you apply to people you have not taken the time to get to know. They tend not to be used between people who know each other intimately.

Yes, and...?

I was countering the dumbass implication that I applied a stereotype to the person I was married to and people who were in my home on a regular basis, that's what.

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Posted: 10/20/2012 9:47:04 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Reading isn't really your thing, is it?

Posted: 10/20/2012 9:49:51 AM EDT

[#5]

Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

Posted: 10/20/2012 9:51:50 AM EDT

[#6]

12 years in the Marines. Enlisted and officer.

I saw this bullshit when I was enlisted, and a couple of the O wives treated mine pretty poorly and we decided if that was ever us it would not be like that, and I'm happy to say we kept to that.

Look guys, bottom like is that there's a lot of people that suck. Selfish, elitist, pricks. Some join the military. Some become officers. I could tell some stories about both sides that would seem to prove the stereotypes, and others and would destroy the stereotypes.

Most people suck.

Posted: 10/20/2012 9:56:55 AM EDT

[#7]

Interesting thread.

It seems there is the whole spectrum of humanity, bad ––- good, everywhere, even in the military.

Posted: 10/20/2012 10:08:20 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

Posted: 10/20/2012 10:21:42 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

People also love framing any issue of human stupidity in a context that reinforces how they already view the world.

Posted: 10/20/2012 10:27:17 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Posted: 10/20/2012 10:53:34 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Yup - it would make as much sense to use this to demonstrate something about women, Fort Bragg, Airborne units, about the military, or about Americans. How people frame such things usually says more about them than anything else.

Posted: 10/20/2012 10:55:45 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:

If the Army wanted you to have a wife, they would have issued you one.

Sig-line worthy?

Very old military axiom. Heard it first in 1977 when I was in basic at Lackland AFB.

That's for junior enlisted.

The axiom I heard was even older than that.

Privates shouldn't marry, Sergeants may marry, Officers must Marry.

Posted: 10/20/2012 11:00:04 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Yup - it would make as much sense to use this to demonstrate something about women, Fort Bragg, Airborne units, about the military, or about Americans. How people frame such things usually says more about them than anything else.

Exactly. Anyone whose been in the military knows better. I want to say something like 30% or more of officers are prior enlisted. The USMC has GREAT programs for E to O opportunities.

God help the 2ndLt that crosses the MGuns or Sgt Maj (or 1stLt and sometimes Capt or Maj), rank isn't everything and most people know it.

This aristocracy bullshit is absolutely LAUGHABLE. The days of "my daddy is an officer so I am too" and buying commissions are long gone. Hell, I have a good buddy whose parents are legal immigrants from Mexico who work in the fields picking berries. Grew up DIRT poor. He's a Captain of Marines now.

Aristocracy. LOL.

Posted: 10/20/2012 12:04:12 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Yup - it would make as much sense to use this to demonstrate something about women, Fort Bragg, Airborne units, about the military, or about Americans. How people frame such things usually says more about them than anything else.

Exactly. Anyone whose been in the military knows better. I want to say something like 30% or more of officers are prior enlisted. The USMC has GREAT programs for E to O opportunities.

God help the 2ndLt that crosses the MGuns or Sgt Maj (or 1stLt and sometimes Capt or Maj), rank isn't everything and most people know it.

This aristocracy bullshit is absolutely LAUGHABLE. The days of "my daddy is an officer so I am too" and buying commissions are long gone. Hell, I have a good buddy whose parents are legal immigrants from Mexico who work in the fields picking berries. Grew up DIRT poor. He's a Captain of Marines now.

Aristocracy. LOL.

I'm a "Military Brat". Most of my friends were the children of enlisted parents. Many of them became officers. If there truly was "class" difference, this would have been impossible.

Posted: 10/20/2012 1:33:32 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Yup - it would make as much sense to use this to demonstrate something about women, Fort Bragg, Airborne units, about the military, or about Americans. How people frame such things usually says more about them than anything else.

Exactly. Anyone whose been in the military knows better. I want to say something like 30% or more of officers are prior enlisted. The USMC has GREAT programs for E to O opportunities.

God help the 2ndLt that crosses the MGuns or Sgt Maj (or 1stLt and sometimes Capt or Maj), rank isn't everything and most people know it.

This aristocracy bullshit is absolutely LAUGHABLE. The days of "my daddy is an officer so I am too" and buying commissions are long gone. Hell, I have a good buddy whose parents are legal immigrants from Mexico who work in the fields picking berries. Grew up DIRT poor. He's a Captain of Marines now.

Aristocracy. LOL.

I can agree with that. I started out as enlisted. My neighbor is an active duty MSG. He's got his MBA and his wife is a PhD and teaches at ECU. We are on a first name basis and hang out quite frequently.

Posted: 10/20/2012 2:03:27 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Yup - it would make as much sense to use this to demonstrate something about women, Fort Bragg, Airborne units, about the military, or about Americans. How people frame such things usually says more about them than anything else.

Exactly. Anyone whose been in the military knows better. I want to say something like 30% or more of officers are prior enlisted. The USMC has GREAT programs for E to O opportunities.

God help the 2ndLt that crosses the MGuns or Sgt Maj (or 1stLt and sometimes Capt or Maj), rank isn't everything and most people know it.

This aristocracy bullshit is absolutely LAUGHABLE. The days of "my daddy is an officer so I am too" and buying commissions are long gone. Hell, I have a good buddy whose parents are legal immigrants from Mexico who work in the fields picking berries. Grew up DIRT poor. He's a Captain of Marines now.

Aristocracy. LOL.

I can agree with that. I started out as enlisted. My neighbor is an active duty MSG. He's got his MBA and his wife is a PhD and teaches at ECU. We are on a first name basis and hang out quite frequently.

Yep, things are different now, and it's good. The military is a treasure trove of opportunities for "upward mobility" like nowhere else in society. Those that claim that there's arising aristocracy really leave me scratching my head and wondering what sort of preconceived notion would lead them to believe that.

Posted: 10/20/2012 3:51:10 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Where there is a king there will be a queen. We are still SOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to the rebirth of formalized aristocracy it's not even funny. People love climbing ladders and letting everyone else know who's on a rung below.

+1

That's just retarded. There's less of a "class" difference between officer and enlisted than there's EVER been in history.

Yup - it would make as much sense to use this to demonstrate something about women, Fort Bragg, Airborne units, about the military, or about Americans. How people frame such things usually says more about them than anything else.

Exactly. Anyone whose been in the military knows better. I want to say something like 30% or more of officers are prior enlisted. The USMC has GREAT programs for E to O opportunities.

God help the 2ndLt that crosses the MGuns or Sgt Maj (or 1stLt and sometimes Capt or Maj), rank isn't everything and most people know it.

This aristocracy bullshit is absolutely LAUGHABLE. The days of "my daddy is an officer so I am too" and buying commissions are long gone. Hell, I have a good buddy whose parents are legal immigrants from Mexico who work in the fields picking berries. Grew up DIRT poor. He's a Captain of Marines now.

Aristocracy. LOL.

I can agree with that. I started out as enlisted. My neighbor is an active duty MSG. He's got his MBA and his wife is a PhD and teaches at ECU. We are on a first name basis and hang out quite frequently.

Yep, things are different now, and it's good. The military is a treasure trove of opportunities for "upward mobility" like nowhere else in society. Those that claim that there's arising aristocracy really leave me scratching my head and wondering what sort of preconceived notion would lead them to believe that.

You said it youself. The idea of the officer corps as a higher class is a leftover stereotype from the days of when commissions were purchased by the wealthy. If you really want a chuckle, read "Kipling's Army" about the class requirements of Victorian British Army. There were actually rules as to how many servants a new 2nd LT was expected to have on hand.

Posted: 10/20/2012 4:03:31 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Any woman that EVEN thinks it's OK to mess with a man's career and work place should be outright paddled like a child.

Any office who permits his wife to meddle in military matters deserves to spend five years in the field as a PFC, pulling every shitty guard shift, KP at the MKT, fighting position digging with E-Tools, and all the other shitty stuff that privates do, and if there is any justice in the world his wife would be working at the chow hall as a KP.

Posted: 10/20/2012 4:04:32 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I hate it when spouses try to assume the rank of his/her spouse. I've heard "do you know who my husband is?" from spouses of members of congress and flag officers alike. At NNMC, we had the spouse of a Congressman walking around the hospital, barging into PACU and patient rooms, ordering doctors and nurses around "you must give this poor boy more painkillers." She was a royal PITA. I didn't like it when Hillary thought she was co-president and I don't like it today.

my uncle is retired fbi. his fraternity brother / business partner is retired secret service. they've both said hillary is the most vile person they ever had to deal with. pretty sad!

Father Malachi Martin was a priest who may have been murdered in the Vatican back during the days of Pope John Paul II because he was investigating satanic activities taking place IN THE VATICAN. Anyway, the point here is that he was at some kind of social function in D.C. some years ago. He said he was in a library room talking to several people with his back turned to the entrance doors to the library. He stated that all of a sudden, the hair on the back of his neck stood up and he felt a feeling of utter evil presence enter the room. He turned around in shock to see who this might be and who do you suppose he saw? Hillary Rodham Clinton. True story.

Oh, and watch the stupid ass American people elect this bitch as the first woman president in 2016.

Posted: 10/20/2012 4:07:48 PM EDT

[#20]

In on this one.

Posted: 10/20/2012 6:19:01 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Posted: 10/20/2012 7:31:36 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I hate it when spouses try to assume the rank of his/her spouse. I've heard "do you know who my husband is?" from spouses of members of congress and flag officers alike. At NNMC, we had the spouse of a Congressman walking around the hospital, barging into PACU and patient rooms, ordering doctors and nurses around "you must give this poor boy more painkillers." She was a royal PITA. I didn't like it when Hillary thought she was co-president and I don't like it today.

my uncle is retired fbi. his fraternity brother / business partner is retired secret service. they've both said hillary is the most vile person they ever had to deal with. pretty sad!

Father Malachi Martin was a priest who may have been murdered in the Vatican back during the days of Pope John Paul II because he was investigating satanic activities taking place IN THE VATICAN. Anyway, the point here is that he was at some kind of social function in D.C. some years ago. He said he was in a library room talking to several people with his back turned to the entrance doors to the library. He stated that all of a sudden, the hair on the back of his neck stood up and he felt a feeling of utter evil presence enter the room. He turned around in shock to see who this might be and who do you suppose he saw? Hillary Rodham Clinton. True story.

Oh, and watch the stupid ass American people elect this bitch as the first woman president in 2016.

we haven't heard the last of hillary.

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:26:28 AM EDT

[#23]

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:39:28 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I hate it when spouses try to assume the rank of his/her spouse. I've heard "do you know who my husband is?" from spouses of members of congress and flag officers alike. At NNMC, we had the spouse of a Congressman walking around the hospital, barging into PACU and patient rooms, ordering doctors and nurses around "you must give this poor boy more painkillers." She was a royal PITA. I didn't like it when Hillary thought she was co-president and I don't like it today.

my uncle is retired fbi. his fraternity brother / business partner is retired secret service. they've both said hillary is the most vile person they ever had to deal with. pretty sad!

Father Malachi Martin was a priest who may have been murdered in the Vatican back during the days of Pope John Paul II because he was investigating satanic activities taking place IN THE VATICAN. Anyway, the point here is that he was at some kind of social function in D.C. some years ago. He said he was in a library room talking to several people with his back turned to the entrance doors to the library. He stated that all of a sudden, the hair on the back of his neck stood up and he felt a feeling of utter evil presence enter the room. He turned around in shock to see who this might be and who do you suppose he saw? Hillary Rodham Clinton. True story.

Oh, and watch the stupid ass American people elect this bitch as the first woman president in 2016.

I've read a lot of Martin's books. Really liked "Windswept House."

Later lifeHis book The Keys of This Blood: The Struggle for World Dominion between Pope John Paul II, Mikhail Gorbachev, and the Capitalist West was published in 1990 and was followed in 1996 by Windswept House: A Vatican Novel. Martin worked closely with the paranormal researchers Dave Considine and John Zaffis on several of their independent cases.[citation needed]

Martin continued to offer daily the traditional Latin mass privately, and vigorously exercised his priestly ministry all the way up until his death. He was strongly supported by some traditional Catholic sources and severely criticized by other, less traditional sources, such as the National Catholic Reporter.[26][27][28]

Martin served as a guest commentator for CNN during the live coverage of the pastoral visit of John Paul II to the United States October 4–8, 1995.

He was a periodic guest on Art Bell's radio program, Coast to Coast AM, between 1995 and 1998 and a guest of Michael Corbin's radio program on Paranet Continuum radio.

In the last three years of his life, Martin had forged a close friendship with the traditional Catholic philosopher, Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy.[29]

In the final years before his death, Martin was received in a private audience by pope John Paul II.[12] Afterwards, he started working on a book with the working title Primacy: How the Institutional Roman Catholic Church became a Creature of the New World Order.[13] This book which promised to be his most controversial and detailed work ever was never completed.[citation needed]

Martin suffered a minor stroke in the summer of 1998.

[edit] Death
The footstone of Malachi Martin in Gate of Heaven CemeteryMartin died of brain hemorrhage after a fall in his apartment in Manhattan, New York, in 1999.[12] His funeral wake took place in St. Anthony of Padua Roman Catholic Chapel of West Orange, New Jersey, before the burial within the Gate of Heaven Cemetery, in Hawthorne, New York.

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:40:36 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
The whole FSG is a vast waste of time and effort. It is generally a place for gossip backbitting and any number of stupid things to happen. As a young SP4 in the early 90s my wife had no interest in participating, as things went on I was glad. And our company FSG leader was one of the platoon sgts wives, and she was actually really nice, it was some of the other women that were insane.

Friend of mine is a submarine officer. His wife (a lawyer and very smart person) didn't take kindly to what many of the professional officer's wives did with the wive's group.

So when the sub was making a foreign port visit (she was big on flying to where they would be stopping) they just decided not to tell her about it. Apparently a large collection of not nice people.

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:44:34 AM EDT

[#26]

Wait, you the husbands rank isn't transitive to the wife?

I have plenty of friends in the services, none of their wives do anything with the fellow wives, because it is "my husband is a lt col, so am i" bullshit.

Sad, because they can do a lot of good.

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:49:52 AM EDT

[#27]

I asked a LtCol's wife what her date of rank was one time. She had been making a scene and demanding head of the line privileges citing her husband's rank. She didn't like me at all...

...but her husband the LtCol called me at work later that day and apologized for her behavior. He told me that he had had a good talk with her and it wouldn't happen again.

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:52:39 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

I asked a LtCol's wife what her date of rank was one time. She had been making a scene and demanding head of the line privileges citing her husband's rank. She didn't like me at all...

...but her husband the LtCol called me at work later that day and apologized for her behavior. He told me that he had had a good talk with her and it wouldn't happen again.

Which is why you avoid:

Main PX

Commissary

Alot of on base recreation areas

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:57:01 AM EDT

[#29]

When I was at Bragg, 2 of the Plt Ldr's were West Pointers. Their wives were Class A bitches. Everyone avoided them like the Plague.
"My husband is Lt So&So, you will be doing extra duty if....blah blah blah.
When Family Week rolled around we always wondered if someone would "forget" to hook up their harness before pushing them out the door at the 34' tower.

Posted: 10/21/2012 7:59:30 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I asked a LtCol's wife what her date of rank was one time. She had been making a scene and demanding head of the line privileges citing her husband's rank. She didn't like me at all...

...but her husband the LtCol called me at work later that day and apologized for her behavior. He told me that he had had a good talk with her and it wouldn't happen again.

Which is why you avoid:

Main PX

Commissary

Alot of on base recreation areas

This happened at the base hospital in front of at least 50 people.

Posted: 10/21/2012 8:10:45 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I remember this when it first came out. You know this woman spent her husband's entire career ruining the lives of anyone subordinate to him. I'd bet she was a nightmare for his platoon sergeant when the dude was a butter bar.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

This is what really bother me the most when senior people are found to have such... issues

I still hold that these incident should warrant an immediate review of the files and potential promotions or education opportunities lost by all people he has senior rated his entire career.

I spent a fair bit of time around army officers, and on average they have as many issues as anyone else (human problems, not army/officer issues) and a belief that they are inherently superior to everyone else. This is a generalization, of course, and not meant to describe all of them.

My ex-wife was a Cpt., and even knowing I had been an enlisted soldier before we met didn't stop her from speaking of enlisted soldiers like they were barely human, in spite of the fact that her own father (her inspiration for wanting to be an army officer in the first place) came up through the ranks to get a commission.

Sometimes, however, you have to recognize that that attitude comes from somewhere in that officer's background. As a senior NCO, I always said that behind every micro-managing POS officer was a shitty set of NCOs in the first unit they reported to. It's absolutely amazing how many of those "lousy, disrespectful officers" had experiences as a young 2LT that made me embarrassed to be wearing stripes. If you ever get the chance to sit down and BS with one of those "bad officers", start asking some leading questions about their initial experience of service. You might find out some very illuminating things.

Of course, on the other hand, some people are just irredeemable assholes. Your mileage may very, but I've learned the hard way that some of the people the Army has entrusted senior enlisted rank to aren't worthy of it. The flip side to that, however, is that some of those same piss-poor officers are directly responsible for promoting those sub-par senior NCOs, simply because they can't see past the screen of bullshit they throw up like an octopus throws out ink.

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:12:58 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:21:04 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

Shit must work different in the Navy then, because that is absolutely not the way it works in the Marines. In fact, I once had this PIECE OF SHIT chief warrant officer when I was a 2nd Lt tell our Det OIC some bullshit lies about completing a task. Me and him went head to head and guess who lost that one? That's right, by virtue of being a CWO he was apparently 100% trustworthy while the lowly 2nd Lt must be a liar.

Awesome.

You typically don't want to cross CWO's in the Marines, and they often will get more respect that regular commissioned officer up until the Maj-LtCol ranks.

I see your posts, and I know you typically know what you're talking about but I don't think you really know what a Victorian era military was like...

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:39:53 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

THe part in red isn't really true any more:

From a
1992 Government Accounting Office (GAO) Report, only about a 6% higher retention rate
has been measured for service academy graduates after 15 years of active duty, when
compared to ROTC and OCS Graduates. Although service academy graduates have
historically attained flag rank at a much higher percentage rate than ROTC and OCS
graduates, the significant shift occurred between 1972 and 1990. In 1972, only about 20% of
flag officers were from ROTC and OCS combined, whereas in 1990 over 50% of
general/flag officers were from ROTC and OCS commissioning sources.

November 19, 2004. Comparative Analysis of Commissioning Sources

Our society in general no longer reflects the Victorian class model and our military, as a reflection of our society, no longer does as well. I would suggest that most officers as well as most enlisted come from the middle class.

Here is a good book on what a true Victorian class based military is like:

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Kiplings-Army-All-Queens/dp/0393304442/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350841152&sr=8-1&keywords=kiplings+army

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:47:32 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

THe part in red isn't really true any more:

From a

1992 Government Accounting Office (GAO) Report, only about a 6% higher retention rate

has been measured for service academy graduates after 15 years of active duty, when

compared to ROTC and OCS Graduates. Although service academy graduates have

historically attained flag rank at a much higher percentage rate than ROTC and OCS

graduates, the significant shift occurred between 1972 and 1990. In 1972, only about 20% of

flag officers were from ROTC and OCS combined, whereas in 1990 over 50% of

general/flag officers were from ROTC and OCS commissioning sources.

November 19, 2004. Comparative Analysis of Commissioning Sources

Our society in general no longer reflects the Victorian class model and our military, as a reflection of our society, no longer does as well. I would suggest that most officers as well as most enlisted come from the middle class.

Here is a good book on what a true Victorian class based military is like:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PT1geDmXL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Kiplings-Army-All-Queens/dp/0393304442/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350841152&sr=8-1&keywords=kiplings+army

It's interesting that you mention the middle class. I honestly am not sure if I've met an officer that came from a legitimately rich family (I'm sure there were a few I didn't know were rich)...knew a couple enlisted that did though.

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:48:32 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

Shit must work different in the Navy then, because that is absolutely not the way it works in the Marines. In fact, I once had this PIECE OF SHIT chief warrant officer when I was a 2nd Lt tell our Det OIC some bullshit lies about completing a task. Me and him went head to head and guess who lost that one? That's right, by virtue of being a CWO he was apparently 100% trustworthy while the lowly 2nd Lt must be a liar.

Awesome.

You typically don't want to cross CWO's in the Marines, and they often will get more respect that regular commissioned officer up until the Maj-LtCol ranks.

I see your posts, and I know you typically know what you're talking about but I don't think you really know what a Victorian era military was like...

Actually, I have one of Kipling's books on my desk at this moment –– obviously Victorian era is a tiny bit of hyperbole , but the Navy at least is most certainly a class based society.

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:51:24 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

Shit must work different in the Navy then, because that is absolutely not the way it works in the Marines. In fact, I once had this PIECE OF SHIT chief warrant officer when I was a 2nd Lt tell our Det OIC some bullshit lies about completing a task. Me and him went head to head and guess who lost that one? That's right, by virtue of being a CWO he was apparently 100% trustworthy while the lowly 2nd Lt must be a liar.

Awesome.

You typically don't want to cross CWO's in the Marines, and they often will get more respect that regular commissioned officer up until the Maj-LtCol ranks.

I see your posts, and I know you typically know what you're talking about but I don't think you really know what a Victorian era military was like...

Actually, I have one of Kipling's books on my desk at this moment –– obviously Victorian era is a tiny bit of hyperbole , but the Navy at least is most certainly a class based society.

Well, that's unfortunate. The USMC is very much not (I'm sure there are exceptions in some units though). Maybe it's because of our O to E ratio, or number of prior enlisted O's, or maybe because of the importance that the USMC puts on NCO and SNCO leadership.

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:53:17 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I bet she has red hair and blue eyes.

http://i49.tinypic.com/14indlg.jpg

guilty

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:55:04 AM EDT

[#39]

I was in 4th BCT when this happened. Why are we talking about it again?

Posted: 10/21/2012 9:57:28 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I remember a story about Lewis "Chesty" Puller after he assumed command of the Second Marine Division. He was asked to address the Marine Corps Officer's Wives club concerning their "rank." He walked up to the podium and said words to the effect, "With concerns about your rank, you don't have any." He turned and walked away from the podium.

Bilster

If true that is fucking awesome.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:05:57 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Any woman that EVEN thinks it's OK to mess with a man's career and work place should be outright paddled like a child.

Especially when they believe that they are part of your chain of command!!!

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:07:17 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

THe part in red isn't really true any more:

From a
1992 Government Accounting Office (GAO) Report, only about a 6% higher retention rate
has been measured for service academy graduates after 15 years of active duty, when
compared to ROTC and OCS Graduates. Although service academy graduates have
historically attained flag rank at a much higher percentage rate than ROTC and OCS
graduates, the significant shift occurred between 1972 and 1990. In 1972, only about 20% of
flag officers were from ROTC and OCS combined, whereas in 1990 over 50% of
general/flag officers were from ROTC and OCS commissioning sources.

November 19, 2004. Comparative Analysis of Commissioning Sources

Our society in general no longer reflects the Victorian class model and our military, as a reflection of our society, no longer does as well. I would suggest that most officers as well as most enlisted come from the middle class.

Here is a good book on what a true Victorian class based military is like:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PT1geDmXL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Kiplings-Army-All-Queens/dp/0393304442/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350841152&sr=8-1&keywords=kiplings+army

Interesting about commissioning sources. That doesn't match what I've seen in the Navy. Maybe the Navy's putting a bunch of Admirals in billets somewhere that nobody ever sees them.

Regardless, my point wasn't where people come from –– I would agree with you that most people in the military are middle class –– but what they are turned into once they join or are commissioned.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:11:22 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Well, that's unfortunate. The USMC is very much not (I'm sure there are exceptions in some units though). Maybe it's because of our O to E ratio, or number of prior enlisted O's, or maybe because of the importance that the USMC puts on NCO and SNCO leadership.

The prior enlisted O's I've had to deal with the last few years have been some of the worst officers I've dealt with in my entire career. Like literally throwing temper tantrums, telling flat out lies, making shit up, trying to task my first classes out from under me –– just horrid people to work for. Not all of them, of course, there have been a few good ones –– but the worst of the worst are the prior-enlisted E6 that couldn't make Chief and carry a grudge until they get forced to retire.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:12:00 AM EDT

[#44]

I will say this, based solely on my experience:

The Army is fairly egalitarian; some officers' wives are bitches, but most are not.

The Marines are the most egalitarian, due to so many Os being former Es. I personally believe all officers should spend 4 years enlisted first, but that will never happen.....

The Navy has the most aristocratic officer corps. Flame away, but that is what I have seen.

Dunno about the Air Force, except they have the nicest posts and get FAR more than their share of attractive women.

FOOTNOTE: My wife and I are ex-Army Os, and we firmly believed that our rank was a sacred responsibility to take care of our enlisted soldiers. My wife, although she was a direct commissionee JAG, took DAMN good care of our soldiers in our JAG office. Our Chief Legal NCO knew that if he could not break the logjam at teh post hospital to get a soldier an urgent-care appointment, he could come see my wife, who would make a phone call directly to one of the docs (she knew them all from when she worked defending the hospital from claims), and then she would personally drive the soldier there. You know you have a trusted officer in your office when an SFC says to an O-3 "Ma'am I need your help," and upon hearing the story she says "Oh, HELL NAW" and starts making phone calls to O4s and O5s to make shit happen.

I always thought I was meant to be a soldier, but my wife, who had NO prior military experience and came on active duty as a baby JAG O-2, became my hero and my inspiration. When she PCSed to a new post, the NCOs at her hail-and-farewell had tears in their eyes as they spoke of her devotion to her soldiers' welfare. For a hot busty blonde who walked in off the law school street to become a JAG officer, she truly has a soldier's heart.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:12:09 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

THe part in red isn't really true any more:

From a

1992 Government Accounting Office (GAO) Report, only about a 6% higher retention rate

has been measured for service academy graduates after 15 years of active duty, when

compared to ROTC and OCS Graduates. Although service academy graduates have

historically attained flag rank at a much higher percentage rate than ROTC and OCS

graduates, the significant shift occurred between 1972 and 1990. In 1972, only about 20% of

flag officers were from ROTC and OCS combined, whereas in 1990 over 50% of

general/flag officers were from ROTC and OCS commissioning sources.

November 19, 2004. Comparative Analysis of Commissioning Sources

Our society in general no longer reflects the Victorian class model and our military, as a reflection of our society, no longer does as well. I would suggest that most officers as well as most enlisted come from the middle class.

Here is a good book on what a true Victorian class based military is like:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PT1geDmXL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Kiplings-Army-All-Queens/dp/0393304442/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350841152&sr=8-1&keywords=kiplings+army

Interesting about commissioning sources. That doesn't match what I've seen in the Navy.

Regardless, my point wasn't where people come from –– I would agree with you that most people in the military are middle class –– but what they are turned into once they join or are commissioned.

Part of the issue may be the units you've been assigned too..."more O than E" is never a good environment.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:19:03 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/how_it_works.png

There is a real and appreciable difference in the dynamics of a group of men and a group of women, 9 times out of 10.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:26:18 AM EDT

[#47]

I can count on one hand how many times over 21 years I had to deal with wives who thought there husbands rank was more important than mine, or my subordinates (while on patrol or at the gate) authority. Lucky for me the issue never caused me to get dragged into my commanders offfice the next morning.

Now that I think about it, I did get called to the carpet once, but that was because it was a former base commanders wife who had dementia and was running around with a steak knife saying she was going to kill herself. I think she thought it was the 1970's and her husband, who had been a General, was still alive. She tried to get into what used to be his old office. We handled that one well but I had to explain it to my boss in detail the next day just in case.

Posted: 10/21/2012 10:27:12 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I was noting how your ignorant stereotype of officers was a mirror image of you ex wife's ignorant stereotype of enlisted folks. Two peas in a pod, and it is becoming more obvious.

Well, based on my experience in the Navy, with all due respect, sir, the stereotype is, with few exceptions, accurate, sir. Woe be it to me to gainsay your own assuptions, sir, as after all I only spent 8 years at 3-star flag commands whose O-to-E ratio was about 5:1, surrounded by spme of the dumbest smart people I've ever met in my time on this planet. Are there good officers? Without a doubt; however those few unfortunate souls spent most of their time being undermined by the rest of the incompetents in the chain of command.

Thank you, you said it much better than I could have. I have also spent the vast majority of my career at commands where there were more officers than enlisted, from O-8 all the way to the plethora of coffee-making Ensigns who thought they didn't have to follow uniform regulations (or any other regulations, including fraternization regulations) because they graduated from college.

Hell, even in the officer ranks there are classes. If you didn't go to the Academy, you know well you're not ever going to command a CVW or a CVN, and the odds you'll reach O-6 are extremely small. Chief Warrant Officers? Please don't think they don't tell their former brothers how they're treated in the wardroom. Prior enlisted? I know of *ONE* prior enlisted who made it to CNO, and in spite of everything he did to promote enlisted commissioning programs there have been none since, and probably never will be again.

Not a class society? The military is the perfect example of a class based Victorian era throwback society, and will be for time to come.

THe part in red isn't really true any more:

From a
1992 Government Accounting Office (GAO) Report, only about a 6% higher retention rate
has been measured for service academy graduates after 15 years of active duty, when
compared to ROTC and OCS Graduates. Although service academy graduates have
historically attained flag rank at a much higher percentage rate than ROTC and OCS
graduates, the significant shift occurred between 1972 and 1990. In 1972, only about 20% of
flag officers were from ROTC and OCS combined, whereas in 1990 over 50% of
general/flag officers were from ROTC and OCS commissioning sources.

November 19, 2004. Comparative Analysis of Commissioning Sources

Our society in general no longer reflects the Victorian class model and our military, as a reflection of our society, no longer does as well. I would suggest that most officers as well as most enlisted come from the middle class.

Here is a good book on what a true Victorian class based military is like:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PT1geDmXL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Kiplings-Army-All-Queens/dp/0393304442/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350841152&sr=8-1&keywords=kiplings+army

Interesting about commissioning sources. That doesn't match what I've seen in the Navy.

Regardless, my point wasn't where people come from –– I would agree with you that most people in the military are middle class –– but what they are turned into once they join or are commissioned.

Part of the issue may be the units you've been assigned too..."more O than E" is never a good environment.

The command I left a year ago is no shit the worst command in the entire DOD, in so many ways I can't even begin to explain it.

The one I'm at now isn't much better.