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Posted: 1/8/2014 1:53:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know Custer David Gregg was one of the reasons the union won at Gettysburg. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 2:16:50 AM EDT
[#2]
Custer's pride got him and his men killed.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 2:44:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Custer's last words to his troops:
"Men, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is, we're surrounded by 10,000 Indians and don't have a prayer of survival. The good news is, we won't have to march home through Nebraska." |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 1:50:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, that's a supposition. <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg</a> Crazy Horse' approach <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg</a> I understood it to be a running battle with Custer in retreat. I don't understand how Gatling guns could be used effectively. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact No, that's a supposition. <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg</a> Crazy Horse' approach <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg</a> I understood it to be a running battle with Custer in retreat. I don't understand how Gatling guns could be used effectively. A supposition that makes a lot of sense. If you have been to the place, you MUST know that Reno positions into the wood were tactically a much better choice than running away on those slopes with natives after you. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 2:56:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A supposition that makes a lot of sense. If you have been to the place, you MUST know that Reno positions into the wood were tactically a much better choice than running away on those slopes with natives after you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact No, that's a supposition. <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg</a> Crazy Horse' approach <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg</a> I understood it to be a running battle with Custer in retreat. I don't understand how Gatling guns could be used effectively. A supposition that makes a lot of sense. If you have been to the place, you MUST know that Reno positions into the wood were tactically a much better choice than running away on those slopes with natives after you. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 3:37:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really don't care about the death of a northern aggressor. Stay classy, secessionist. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 3:42:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to mention, the Native Americans were better equipped! They had repeater rifles, to the Cav's single action. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The only survivor was a horse. Yes, it was Custer's ego that got him killed, and another Captain's choice not to back him up. And a shit load of Indians. Any truth to the fact Indian scouts told Custer "You don't have enough bullets for al those Indians"? Not to mention, the Native Americans were better equipped! They had repeater rifles, to the Cav's single action. Spencers are repeaters. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 3:57:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again.. Only a marginal number of native warriors had repeaters. As someone mentioned up here. They have found only 143 different "native" firearms by the spent shells... Let's say that this number is off by a factor 2, that's only 286 firearms... (Among them, repeaters of course).... Less than Custer companies guns that day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The only survivor was a horse. Yes, it was Custer's ego that got him killed, and another Captain's choice not to back him up. And a shit load of Indians. Any truth to the fact Indian scouts told Custer "You don't have enough bullets for al those Indians"? Not to mention, the Native Americans were better equipped! They had repeater rifles, to the Cav's single action. Yup.  Again.. Only a marginal number of native warriors had repeaters. As someone mentioned up here. They have found only 143 different "native" firearms by the spent shells... Let's say that this number is off by a factor 2, that's only 286 firearms... (Among them, repeaters of course).... Less than Custer companies guns that day. It would have only taken a marginal number of rifle-equipped men to keep the Cavalry's heads down long enough for the rest of them to close in. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 4:07:40 PM EDT
[#9]
The 7th Cav also had bad ammo, lots of split cases that would have needed to be extracted with a cleaning rod.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 4:11:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. I think, after some study, this is fair. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 4:19:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact Reno suffered a considerable counter-attack, which he judged (right or wrong) too powerful for his troops to withstand, hence their initial withdrawal. The whole mess was caused by Custer's not giving credence to his Indian Scout's reports on the size of the Indian encampment, and hence the number of warriors available. Add to that the disrupted terrain, and the Indians having repeating rifles as well as swarming tactics around the separate units, and Custer's doom was guaranteed. |
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Posted: 1/8/2014 4:26:56 PM EDT
[#12]
It's interesting when you look down from high ground to where Reno and his men retreated across the river to the bluff............had he not got to high ground, I am convinced he and his men would have been completely wiped out.
I'd recommend a visit to the battlefield to anyone who hasn't been there.............there is a great museum full of weapons and all kinds of artifacts from the battle Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reno suffered a considerable counter-attack, which he judged (right or wrong) too powerful for his troops to withstand, hence their initial withdrawal. The whole mess was caused by Custer's not giving credence to his Indian Scout's reports on the size of the Indian encampment, and hence the number of warriors available. Add to that the disrupted terrain, and the Indians having repeating rifles as well as swarming tactics around the separate units, and Custer's doom was guaranteed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact Reno suffered a considerable counter-attack, which he judged (right or wrong) too powerful for his troops to withstand, hence their initial withdrawal. The whole mess was caused by Custer's not giving credence to his Indian Scout's reports on the size of the Indian encampment, and hence the number of warriors available. Add to that the disrupted terrain, and the Indians having repeating rifles as well as swarming tactics around the separate units, and Custer's doom was guaranteed. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 1:43:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think I'd want to be in the woods when hundreds of Indians take up shooting positions in the hills above, and everywhere else. That piece of high ground saved a lot of 7th hides IMO. It's also a good way to get burned to death when they set fire to the woods. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact No, that's a supposition. <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4978_zpsa51b3b1f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4979_zps3f26b71f.jpg</a> Crazy Horse' approach <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4981_zps78458f49.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/jacksfriend/media/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/jacksfriend/Custer%20Battlefield/IMG_4973_zps4d39ae79.jpg</a> I understood it to be a running battle with Custer in retreat. I don't understand how Gatling guns could be used effectively. A supposition that makes a lot of sense. If you have been to the place, you MUST know that Reno positions into the wood were tactically a much better choice than running away on those slopes with natives after you. Woods protect you better from bullets and arrows than just being on high grounds.. Plus they had water there... It was definetely a better defensive positions to hold |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 1:48:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's interesting when you look down from high ground to where Reno and his men retreated across the river to the bluff............had he not got to high ground, I am convinced he and his men would have been completely wiped out. I'd recommend a visit to the battlefield to anyone who hasn't been there.............there is a great museum full of weapons and all kinds of artifacts from the battle Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's interesting when you look down from high ground to where Reno and his men retreated across the river to the bluff............had he not got to high ground, I am convinced he and his men would have been completely wiped out. I'd recommend a visit to the battlefield to anyone who hasn't been there.............there is a great museum full of weapons and all kinds of artifacts from the battle Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact Reno suffered a considerable counter-attack, which he judged (right or wrong) too powerful for his troops to withstand, hence their initial withdrawal. The whole mess was caused by Custer's not giving credence to his Indian Scout's reports on the size of the Indian encampment, and hence the number of warriors available. Add to that the disrupted terrain, and the Indians having repeating rifles as well as swarming tactics around the separate units, and Custer's doom was guaranteed. I don't think so. Woods offered a much better protection from bullets and arrows than these high grounds. Not to mention the proximity of water, which later revealed it's importance. Reno totally panicked that day, after bloody knife (if I remember well) got a headshot in front of him.. He ordered mount/dismount/mount/dismount a number of times, sending his troops in a catastrophic retreat. He and his men had good defensive positions down there, and they would have kept enough warriors busy for Custer (and Benteen, if if hadn't been such a traitor) the ability to fight on more equal forces. Ps: according to many reports, Reno was drunk during at least a part of the battle. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 1:54:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Listen...
I know the "Cool kids" here speak only the truth and nothing but the truth...HOWEVER... If the troopers were able to bring and somehow set up those gats on that ridge-line, there would have been a LOT more dead indians, maybe the outcome would have been the same - Maybe those guns would have broken the attack... who knows.... I would say they would have been highly effective. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 1:56:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Listen... I know the "Cool kids" here speak only the truth and nothing but the truth...HOWEVER... If the troopers were able to bring and somehow set up those gats on that ridge-line, there would have been a LOT more dead indians, maybe the outcome would have been the same - Maybe those guns would have broken the attack... who knows.... I would say they would have been highly effective. Chances are that even if they brought them, they would have been with Benteen and the ammo packs... So that wouldn't have helped Custer at all.. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 2:00:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Possible, but there is also the chance that Indians might have occupied the heights that Reno retreated to, and combined with a frontal assault I am not sure he would have fared well. The Indian forces that destroyed Keogh's group could have wheeled around after Custer's group was defeated and caused him serious trouble............and could have cut off Benteen from reaching him as well.
They put on a great program at the battlefield with a couple of rangers/historians who presented those scenarios. After walking over the field, and visiting Reno's positions........I don't know. Too many factors to say for sure what would have happened Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think so. Woods offered a much better protection from bullets and arrows than these high grounds. Not to mention the proximity of water, which later revealed it's importance. Reno totally panicked that day, after bloody knife (if I remember well) got a headshot in front of him.. He ordered mount/dismount/mount/dismount a number of times, sending his troops in a catastrophic retreat. He and his men had good defensive positions down there, and they would have kept enough warriors busy for Custer (and Benteen, if if hadn't been such a traitor) the ability to fight on more equal forces. Ps: according to many reports, Reno was drunk during at least a part of the battle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's interesting when you look down from high ground to where Reno and his men retreated across the river to the bluff............had he not got to high ground, I am convinced he and his men would have been completely wiped out. I'd recommend a visit to the battlefield to anyone who hasn't been there.............there is a great museum full of weapons and all kinds of artifacts from the battle Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Interesting and still controversial battle. Custer did many things wrong; inadequate recon, split his force in the face of a superior enemy, poor instructions to subordinates, a 'liberal" interpretation of his orders, overconfidence (not exactly misplaced), outnumbered by as much as ten to one. Had Reno and Benteen come to his aid it would only have increased the casualties. The last stand battle was actually quite short, less than a half an hour. That's wrong. had Reno held his position (with lots of cover) to the woods (keeping at least 1/3rd of the warriors busy), and Benteen walked to the sound of battle (as rules and orders commanded) this wouldn't have been such a defeat, 300 troops wouldn't have been killed. That's a fact Reno suffered a considerable counter-attack, which he judged (right or wrong) too powerful for his troops to withstand, hence their initial withdrawal. The whole mess was caused by Custer's not giving credence to his Indian Scout's reports on the size of the Indian encampment, and hence the number of warriors available. Add to that the disrupted terrain, and the Indians having repeating rifles as well as swarming tactics around the separate units, and Custer's doom was guaranteed. I don't think so. Woods offered a much better protection from bullets and arrows than these high grounds. Not to mention the proximity of water, which later revealed it's importance. Reno totally panicked that day, after bloody knife (if I remember well) got a headshot in front of him.. He ordered mount/dismount/mount/dismount a number of times, sending his troops in a catastrophic retreat. He and his men had good defensive positions down there, and they would have kept enough warriors busy for Custer (and Benteen, if if hadn't been such a traitor) the ability to fight on more equal forces. Ps: according to many reports, Reno was drunk during at least a part of the battle. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 3:09:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Been there twice too. Of course, I don't claim to tell the truth of how it would have played. Just my opinion based on the books/account I read, knowledge of the battlefield, the previous battles of the plains Indians wars, and general military knowledge.. We will never know for sure, and that's what is so fascinating about it too. Hoka hey. But not for everyone that day |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 5:04:54 PM EDT
[#19]
After a fire at the site, archaeologists scanned the battlefield with metal detectors. Their findings pretty much agreed with several accounts of the progress of the battle. It revealed that the markers were very well placed. It also found several knives with the tips broken off. They believe that this matches accounts at the time of spent casings getting stuck in the rifles and being difficult to remove. One other item I came across was that few of the soldiers had actually fired their rifles. In order to save money after the Civil War, live fire practice was pretty much banned. This changed after the battle.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 5:14:14 PM EDT
[#20]
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