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Buy coal stocks. That electricity has to come from somewhere.
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MB employee here.
The current line of engines will run a few more years.Plus their replacements are all ready "developed".So gas will be around 10-15yrs easy. |
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This has been the case for roughly 3 years now with all Euro automakers. They have all essentially abandoned development of all new IC engines. Resources have shifted to electric. Nobody wants to be left behind. Believe me when I say the supply base manufacturing these engine components is freaking out. View Quote Battery tech is improving and will continue to improve In the last 5 years Tesla has added about 50% increase in range and reduced charging time by about 35% In dc fast chargers It will continue in that direction For daily driving/commuting 99 % of people will meet 99% of their needs by fueling at home at night when the grid isn’t stressed Today with no further advancements long distance travel (at least for Tesla) refueling electric cars has been reduced to a mild inconvenience Adding about an hour and 45 minutes of charge time to a 1000 mile road trip (To put it a different way you’ll have to have a sit down lunch and dinner rather than fast food when your vehicle is refueling) To put that in perspective On a 1000 mile road trip in an ice car 5 minutes x 2 for the trip Fast food once or twice 9 minutes for ordering/delivery x 2 28 minutes 1:45 minutes - 30 minutes = 1:15 inconvenience for Tesla driving long distance And I had a sit down meal plus difference in electric fuel cost They should be freaking out The future is electric Electric car industry is in its infancy, practically speaking only about 6-7 years old The problem of energy storage was the issue That problem has been mitigated to a large extent and will only get better as competition in the space is just now coming online The vehicle industry and all associated industry’s will adjust or die Car dealerships who get their profits from their service depts are going to get hit really hard as electric motors are basically maintenance free No oil changes No fuel system No timing belts No spark plugs No exhaust system No transmission Etc etc Europe and China are going all in US gas car makers will not survive on US sales alone First the car prices will go up to offset the losses in the global market It will hit a point where why would you pay a 30% premium to buy a gas car when 2/3 of the gas stations have closed and dc fast charge stations have increased 1000% It is going to happen In 3 years or 25 years it is going to happen and it doesn’t really matter if anyone likes it or not We don’t ride horses and buggies for transportation and we don’t put Kodak film in our cameras, we don’t use landline phones, we don’t listen to cassette tapes, and we don’t go down to blockbuster to gets some tapes to watch over the weekend |
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People don't realize but European market is roughly twice US (7.7M v14.6M in '16) "SUV's" have seen the biggest gains over the last decade in both markets, but many are merely tall wagon based on car platforms. Still Mini, Small and Medium cars make up 2/3 of sales in Europe. Top selling vehicles in Europe are the Golf, Fiesta, Clio, Polo, 208, Yaris, Octavio, and CUVs like Tiguan and Qashqai. Models in China - about 20M, are even less premium. Japan's the next largest IIRC Funny thing only 278k were Hybrid 190k Plug-in hybrid/full Batt in Europe (about 350k/150k). MB is a premium brand which insulates them some from general market trends, but Daimler is hoping to benefit from various forms of govt subsidation to make their vehicles more attractive. Real question is - where's the batteries for 40M cars. This ain't happening tomorrow - and likely never View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The manufacturers are giving up on cars and only making SUV's and trucks. How is that battery system going to make it with heavier vehicles, towing, and long distance. Funny thing only 278k were Hybrid 190k Plug-in hybrid/full Batt in Europe (about 350k/150k). MB is a premium brand which insulates them some from general market trends, but Daimler is hoping to benefit from various forms of govt subsidation to make their vehicles more attractive. Real question is - where's the batteries for 40M cars. This ain't happening tomorrow - and likely never |
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Quoted: I’d bet it’s similar to what the livery stable industry experienced way back Battery tech is improving and will continue to improve In the last 5 years Tesla has added about 50% increase in range and reduced charging time by about 35% In dc fast chargers It will continue in that direction For daily driving/commuting 99 % of people will meet 99% of their needs by fueling at home at night when the grid isn’t stressed Today with no further advancements long distance travel (at least for Tesla) refueling electric cars has been reduced to a mild inconvenience Adding about an hour and 45 minutes of charge time to a 1000 mile road trip (To put it a different way you’ll have to have a sit down lunch and dinner rather than fast food when your vehicle is refueling) To put that in perspective On a 1000 mile road trip in an ice car 5 minutes x 2 for the trip Fast food once or twice 9 minutes for ordering/delivery x 2 28 minutes 1:45 minutes - 30 minutes = 1:15 inconvenience for Tesla driving long distance And I had a sit down meal plus difference in electric fuel cost They should be freaking out The future is electric Electric car industry is in its infancy, practically speaking only about 6-7 years old The problem of energy storage was the issue That problem has been mitigated to a large extent and will only get better as competition in the space is just now coming online The vehicle industry and all associated industry’s will adjust or die Car dealerships who get their profits from their service depts are going to get hit really hard as electric motors are basically maintenance free No oil changes No fuel system No timing belts No spark plugs No exhaust system No transmission Etc etc Europe and China are going all in US gas car makers will not survive on US sales alone First the car prices will go up to offset the losses in the global market It will hit a point where why would you pay a 30% premium to buy a gas car when 2/3 of the gas stations have closed and dc fast charge stations have increased 1000% It is going to happen In 3 years or 25 years it is going to happen and it doesn’t really matter if anyone likes it or not We don’t ride horses and buggies for transportation and we don’t put Kodak film in our cameras, we don’t use landline phones, we don’t listen to cassette tapes, and we don’t go down to blockbuster to gets some tapes to watch over the weekend View Quote |
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Complete and total BS Here is a canonball run time in a Tesla for you. Better time than a few ICE cars I’ve done it in 2.75 days on a bit more leasurely route The last half carrying 5 adults and luggage https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-ev-cannonball-run-record-video/amp/ 2 weeks? You are woefully uneducated on the View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Using Tesla's recharging stations and working with the timetables, it takes you two weeks to cross the United States. Tell me Mercedes, what got you to do that in 28 hours with an electric car? Because so far, only an internal combustion vehicle can do that. MB is virtue signalling to their ignorant buyer base insulated from reality. Here is a canonball run time in a Tesla for you. Better time than a few ICE cars I’ve done it in 2.75 days on a bit more leasurely route The last half carrying 5 adults and luggage https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-ev-cannonball-run-record-video/amp/ 2 weeks? You are woefully uneducated on the |
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The last road trip I took was last month. Since then, I've already spent more time filling up my DD for my daily commute than I would have had to wait for an EV to recharge during that trip.
I'm not seeing the downside to the EV. |
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It could be that IC engines are just about as good as they can be without using insanely expensive materials. View Quote You gotta wonder how much more can be squeezed from IC engines. My prediction is that the future is several varieties of hybrid as I don't see full electric being a solid solution for decades to come. Enjoy it while you can, gearheads. This is just like the late 60's all over again. |
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I think it’s more a case of they can’t get their engines and esp Transmissions to last more then 10 years so..... why not lol
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Hybrid is the way to go. I know most of you laugh at the Prius, but mine is going on 4 years old and it is bullet proof transportation. Point A to B. makes its own electricity, sips on gas. Not a super car but it was designed for every day driving. Tesla is an example of a family super car but it has a limited range because it is 100% electric. Put a small gas motor in one and you have a winner. View Quote |
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Waves in Panasonic https://eu.industrial.panasonic.com/products/batteries-energy-products/automotive-battery View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The manufacturers are giving up on cars and only making SUV's and trucks. How is that battery system going to make it with heavier vehicles, towing, and long distance. Funny thing only 278k were Hybrid 190k Plug-in hybrid/full Batt in Europe (about 350k/150k). MB is a premium brand which insulates them some from general market trends, but Daimler is hoping to benefit from various forms of govt subsidation to make their vehicles more attractive. Real question is - where's the batteries for 40M cars. This ain't happening tomorrow - and likely never Market will fix eventually, but my point remains - 100% EV replacement ain't happening now, soon, or likely at all. |
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Quoted: ^Fan boy delivering the HONK HONK. View Quote Whereas it’s completely untrue that it takes two weeks to cross the country in a Tesla Hell, an older Nissan Leaf can do it in 4-5 days That’s the thing, it’s the truth and some people when confronted with a fact that doesn’t fit their narrative will double down and say “nope it’s two weeks” even when evidence shows that to be untrue. Or use a term like “fanboy” to invoke a narrative that that truth is not valid because of the you know “fanboy” “He really likes the company so you have to take anything he says with a grain of salt” Never mind the fact of what he said is 100% accurate And he posted information that 100% states what he said was indeed factually correct. |
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1908-“hey mister livery stable owner, what do you think of mr fords fancy affordable horseless carriage?”
-livery stable owner “it’s pretty neat, it’s cool it’s faster than a horse and all but only in a straight line. And once it’s out of gas my horse will keep on going. I mean look, there are only a few gas stations around so how are you going to refuel it? And besides that, it’s really only good if you live in a big city. If you want drive it long distance there is the gas station issue and what roads are you going to drive it on? There are only a few smooth enough to not beat the car to pieces. And another thing, where is mr ford going to get all that steel for his cars? The supply chain is constrained by the building industry buying it all up for those big buildings. And what about the rubber for all those tires? Only X amount of rubber is produced a year and it’s pretty much spoken for.....and the oil and gas companies are pretty much tapped out in their refining capacity. They can never handle fuel for any significant number of those fancy cars. I’m not worried in the least bit they are kind of cool. Even if, I’ve still got farmers bringing their crops to town. No car can ever replace that plus they need those horses to work their fields. Cars can’t plow fields” Fast forward 12 years to the 1920s when Americans bought 26 million cars and 3 million trucks. Plus tractors I’m certain there were tons of “cling to your horse” folks that made these arguments And to me those arguments seem really familiar |
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The only thing is it’s true Whereas it’s completely untrue that it takes two weeks to cross the country in a Tesla Hell, an older Nissan Leaf can do it in 4-5 days That’s the thing, it’s the truth and some people when confronted with a fact that doesn’t fit their narrative will double down and say “nope it’s two weeks” even when evidence shows that to be untrue. Or use a term like “fanboy” to invoke a narrative that that truth is not valid because of the you know “fanboy” “He really likes the company so you have to take anything he says with a grain of salt” Never mind the fact of what he said is 100% accurate And he posted information that 100% states what he said was indeed factually correct. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: ^Fan boy delivering the HONK HONK. Whereas it’s completely untrue that it takes two weeks to cross the country in a Tesla Hell, an older Nissan Leaf can do it in 4-5 days That’s the thing, it’s the truth and some people when confronted with a fact that doesn’t fit their narrative will double down and say “nope it’s two weeks” even when evidence shows that to be untrue. Or use a term like “fanboy” to invoke a narrative that that truth is not valid because of the you know “fanboy” “He really likes the company so you have to take anything he says with a grain of salt” Never mind the fact of what he said is 100% accurate And he posted information that 100% states what he said was indeed factually correct. |
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Which is part of my point
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That tesla guy posts about horses vs. cars..... there's still a shit tonne of horse~n~buggies rolling around out here
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Until electric vehicles offer refueling/recharging as quickly and conveniently as gasoline does, they won't be mainstream.
I've been told recharging a vehicle battery that has 300+ miles of range in 3-5 minutes would require a massive amount of power (not sure if voltage or amperage or both). Pretty much every "gas station" out there would have to be re-wired and it would be a strain on the current electrical grid. Another solution would be for standardized battery packs that can be swapped in 3-5 minutes but that presents other engineering and design challenges, plus the labor or equipment in the field to swap the batteries. |
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Quoted: Read my post above. They have spent billions and achieved over 50% thermal efficiency with hybrid electrics. The smart move is to take the billions that would be spent chasing another 10% and work on electric (purely as a hedge). |
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unrelatedly is mercedes looking in to how to upgrade the power grid 3-4x ? because if not i see bad thing on the horizon for them.
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They should be focusing on hybrid electric powertrains not just pure Electric That's a pretty dumb move View Quote |
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For daily driving/commuting 99 % of people will meet 99% of their needs by fueling at home at night when the grid isn’t stressed View Quote Suzy McWifeunit buys a crossover to drop the kids at school on Tuesday and Thursday and buy 36-packs of toilet paper at Costco three times per year. The other 99% of the time, she's by herself driving to work. Joe VanderTuffnuts buys a pickup to tow his camper twice a year and pickup a few bags of mulch and fertilizer throughout the year. The other 99% of the time, he's by himself driving to the bar or the bowling alley. This why roads aren't full of single-occupant vehicles. We buy for 1%, not 99%. |
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The only thing is it’s true Whereas it’s completely untrue that it takes two weeks to cross the country in a Tesla Hell, an older Nissan Leaf can do it in 4-5 days That’s the thing, it’s the truth and some people when confronted with a fact that doesn’t fit their narrative will double down and say “nope it’s two weeks” even when evidence shows that to be untrue. Or use a term like “fanboy” to invoke a narrative that that truth is not valid because of the you know “fanboy” “He really likes the company so you have to take anything he says with a grain of salt” Never mind the fact of what he said is 100% accurate And he posted information that 100% states what he said was indeed factually correct. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: ^Fan boy delivering the HONK HONK. Whereas it’s completely untrue that it takes two weeks to cross the country in a Tesla Hell, an older Nissan Leaf can do it in 4-5 days That’s the thing, it’s the truth and some people when confronted with a fact that doesn’t fit their narrative will double down and say “nope it’s two weeks” even when evidence shows that to be untrue. Or use a term like “fanboy” to invoke a narrative that that truth is not valid because of the you know “fanboy” “He really likes the company so you have to take anything he says with a grain of salt” Never mind the fact of what he said is 100% accurate And he posted information that 100% states what he said was indeed factually correct. |
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The last road trip I took was last month. Since then, I've already spent more time filling up my DD for my daily commute than I would have had to wait for an EV to recharge during that trip. I'm not seeing the downside to the EV. View Quote |
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Where is the massive amount of extra electricity going to come from? We already have problems supplying enough power to areas with higher populations when it gets hot. Charge over night when the grid is less stressed? Don't you think it would be stressed if a shit ton of people plug in their cars before heading to bed? View Quote These cherry picked cannonball runs mean nothing, electric cars are not practical for long distance driving. If I can do some cherry picking of my own, look at New York to Seattle. 42hrs in a normal car. Standard range Model X takes 69hrs and a 250 mile detour to find superchargers. This trip might not even be possible in winter. Assuming 10hrs/day driving, you're slightly faster than a bicycle. |
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Panasonic will nearly double its capacity near term (which is insignificant in terms of world total vehicles produced) - but there continues to be bottlenecks. Battery metals - with the additional Aus Lithium production a Lithium oversupply (or at least a cost decrease) is looming. Cobalt and Nickel are an issue now. Market will fix eventually, but my point remains - 100% EV replacement ain't happening now, soon, or likely at all. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The manufacturers are giving up on cars and only making SUV's and trucks. How is that battery system going to make it with heavier vehicles, towing, and long distance. Funny thing only 278k were Hybrid 190k Plug-in hybrid/full Batt in Europe (about 350k/150k). MB is a premium brand which insulates them some from general market trends, but Daimler is hoping to benefit from various forms of govt subsidation to make their vehicles more attractive. Real question is - where's the batteries for 40M cars. This ain't happening tomorrow - and likely never Market will fix eventually, but my point remains - 100% EV replacement ain't happening now, soon, or likely at all. MB engines are really good, they can afford to not invest for 5 to 10 years and play with hybrid systems and keep their politicians placated. That is what I read into this. Oil is the lubricator of the world, nothing can change that no matter how green the fluffers lips are! |
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Where is the massive amount of extra electricity going to come from? We already have problems supplying enough power to areas with higher populations when it gets hot. Charge over night when the grid is less stressed? Don't you think it would be stressed if a shit ton of people plug in their cars before heading to bed? View Quote Yes that was good ol oil We produced enough to meet the need in 1908 and on utility scale as the need increased so did the production I get pretty much all of my fuel from solar 15kw system Makes more than I use for driving and my house Maybe more hydro? Maybe need storage on a utility scale to offset? Maybe more nuclear? More wind? More solar? Natural gas? We have done it before When electric consumption has increased we have responded. It’s a valid question but when the question is phrased in such a way as to be nearly rhetorical it dismisses the fact we have rapidly increased production of fuel for gas cars in the past and we have rapidly increased electrical production in the past to meet rapidly rising electrical consumption The fact that electricity is going to be used in something you might not agree with doesn’t feminism the fact we have produced pretty much anything we have needed to meet the demand that need required. There is a business model in there somewhere |
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Quoted: I don’t know but we figured it out in 10 years when we went from needing to fuel 500,000 cars in 1908 to needing to fuel 30,000,000 in the 1920s Yes that was good ol oil We produced enough to meet the need in 1908 and on utility scale as the need increased so did the production I get pretty much all of my fuel from solar 15kw system Makes more than I use for driving and my house Maybe more hydro? Maybe need storage on a utility scale to offset? Maybe more nuclear? More wind? More solar? Natural gas? We have done it before When electric consumption has increased we have responded. It’s a valid question but when the question is phrased in such a way as to be nearly rhetorical it dismisses the fact we have rapidly increased production of fuel for gas cars in the past and we have rapidly increased electrical production in the past to meet rapidly rising electrical consumption The fact that electricity is going to be used in something you might not agree with doesn’t feminism the fact we have produced pretty much anything we have needed to meet the demand that need required. There is a business model in there somewhere View Quote |
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Mercedes' biggest problem is that their value/quality has dropped below all the Japanese manufacturers, Ford, and others. The value of used Mercedes have dropped like rocks. Maybe they figure a simple electric design will save the company. But, I don't think they can compete with the Chinese in the electric car market. Most likely, Daimler is on its last breaths. View Quote |
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Quoted: Shh, we don't talk about that. Electricity comes from the wall, just like food comes from the grocery store. These cherry picked cannonball runs mean nothing, electric cars are not practical for long distance driving. If I can do some cherry picking of my own, look at New York to Seattle. 42hrs in a normal car. Standard range Model X takes 69hrs and a 250 mile detour to find superchargers. This trip might not even be possible in winter. Assuming 10hrs/day driving, you're slightly faster than a bicycle. View Quote 55.5 hours for that trip in a Tesla model X Shave 1.5 hours off that trip time if you spend the night along the way and charge at the hotel https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=68ab7230-9835-4bd9-8018-9c576d028245 I’m not sure if the trip plan will show up in that address I posted If you want to see the reality of NY to Seattle in a Tesla model X Go to abetterrouteplaner website Put NY in as starting point Put Seattle as destination Pull up settings Choose Tesla model X raven refresh as the vehicle Choose speed limit factor as 110% if speed limit Choose max speed of set a max speed of 85mph (it will calculate against 110% of speed limit) Choose buffer of 5% and 100% charge for your starting charge % Choose only using Tesla super chargers Hit plan route The first figure will be trip time without factoring in overnights The first figure is total trip time of 55 hours Then it’s broken down to drive time and charging time Not bad those The first player shorted Tesla by 11.5 days of trip time You only tacked in 25% |
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I don’t know but we figured it out in 10 years when we went from needing to fuel 500,000 cars in 1908 to needing to fuel 30,000,000 in the 1920s Yes that was good ol oil We produced enough to meet the need in 1908 and on utility scale as the need increased so did the production I get pretty much all of my fuel from solar 15kw system Makes more than I use for driving and my house Maybe more hydro? Maybe need storage on a utility scale to offset? Maybe more nuclear? More wind? More solar? Natural gas? We have done it before When electric consumption has increased we have responded. It’s a valid question but when the question is phrased in such a way as to be nearly rhetorical it dismisses the fact we have rapidly increased production of fuel for gas cars in the past and we have rapidly increased electrical production in the past to meet rapidly rising electrical consumption The fact that electricity is going to be used in something you might not agree with doesn’t feminism the fact we have produced pretty much anything we have needed to meet the demand that need required. There is a business model in there somewhere View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Where is the massive amount of extra electricity going to come from? We already have problems supplying enough power to areas with higher populations when it gets hot. Charge over night when the grid is less stressed? Don't you think it would be stressed if a shit ton of people plug in their cars before heading to bed? Yes that was good ol oil We produced enough to meet the need in 1908 and on utility scale as the need increased so did the production I get pretty much all of my fuel from solar 15kw system Makes more than I use for driving and my house Maybe more hydro? Maybe need storage on a utility scale to offset? Maybe more nuclear? More wind? More solar? Natural gas? We have done it before When electric consumption has increased we have responded. It’s a valid question but when the question is phrased in such a way as to be nearly rhetorical it dismisses the fact we have rapidly increased production of fuel for gas cars in the past and we have rapidly increased electrical production in the past to meet rapidly rising electrical consumption The fact that electricity is going to be used in something you might not agree with doesn’t feminism the fact we have produced pretty much anything we have needed to meet the demand that need required. There is a business model in there somewhere I'd like you to answer this rhetorical question; "Which source of energy best suits our current state, and the next 10 years of economic growth and stability?" Consumer cars are such a small part of the energy equation, but they are the most emotional subject because we all want to be the master of our own horse. How do we power the devices that move (logistically) most of the stuff we need to keep our economies productive? Can EV's compete with current systems? EV's are novelties for market mavens and first movers, but on every measurable scale of economic development and environmental protection, they are net losers. Hydrogen creates a conundrum, but it has to be produced by massive amounts of electricity so how the hell do we do that?? NOTHING is free. But some things are more efficient and easier to improve like the energy systems we have now. Get over that and embrace cleaning of current systems before embarking on new untested ones. |
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I would laugh if Mercedes stopped but AMG didn't. Half-fast, short-legged econoboxes for the lay people while the wealthy still get the hot V from AMG.
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lol Soon to be the next victims of "Get woke go broke". Electric will eventually be the future but it isn't here yet and betting the farm that you'll make it viable in the next 5-10 years is a bold/retarded strategy. View Quote |
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Quoted: Call me when they figure out how to electrically power a passenger airliner View Quote https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/04/27/all-electric-trainer-plane-airworthiness-certification-faa-us/amp/ Oops wrong one, that’s for small GA trainers and talks about the cost savings Here is the one for commercial planes https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-48630656 |
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Quoted: Dude, I used Tesla's own route planner. Click the link and look for yourself. View Quote I use “abetterrouteplanner” app to plan any long distance travel It takes far more into account like letting you set speed parameters, your own buffer, etc etc |
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