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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:34:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't matter. The design makes it so that water can go around the espillway and if it does long enough it doesn't matter if the Emergency spillway is the proverbial immovable object. The result will be the same as it the walls all fell down. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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new pictures scrapped from http://pixel-ca-dwr.photoshelter.com/galleries/C0000OxvlgXg3yfg/G00003YCcmDTx48Y/Oroville-Spillway-Damage http://i.imgur.com/WqRSlmU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VSbRy2d.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VRMkgfK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/mCOYeH5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UTwmRbU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/7vtiGhC.jpg Hey look, bedrock. Can we put the whole "it's not built on bedrock, it's built on fill" thing to rest now. It doesn't matter. The design makes it so that water can go around the espillway and if it does long enough it doesn't matter if the Emergency spillway is the proverbial immovable object. The result will be the same as it the walls all fell down. It's not going around the e-spillway, it's going over the e-spillway and down the wrong side of the hill. That's a fixable problem. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:35:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote Historysoon 2 be FUBAR |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:35:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey look, bedrock. Can we put the whole "it's not built on bedrock, it's built on fill" thing to rest now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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new pictures scrapped from http://pixel-ca-dwr.photoshelter.com/galleries/C0000OxvlgXg3yfg/G00003YCcmDTx48Y/Oroville-Spillway-Damage http://i.imgur.com/WqRSlmU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VSbRy2d.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VRMkgfK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/mCOYeH5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UTwmRbU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/7vtiGhC.jpg Hey look, bedrock. Can we put the whole "it's not built on bedrock, it's built on fill" thing to rest now. Except only the guys who relied on the LA Times' interns graphic said it was built on fill. The question is whether those are toed into solid bed rock or if the stone in the area is sloppy and includes more fractured bullshit than anything else. Also, according to this: http://www.slideshare.net/Vyankyo/dam-reservoir-amp-tunnels Fracturing and planes angled toward the downhill direction are undesirable. There's a photo in this thread that seems to show why. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:36:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have know idea how they are anchored and never really thought about it until you said something. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I assume (maybe stupid of me to) that all the house boats on the far side of the damn are empty and anchored really good? If the Espillway broke it will be moving a ton of surface water and I can see those boats going along for the ride, and those have to contain a good amout of fuel and or propane that can cause nice little booms when they get smashed up against something. I just haven't seen anything new about the boats and it made me think of those. They're probably not anchored, they're probably moored. It's a meaningful difference. Moorings are usually large cement blocks, not just a fork stuck in the mud. A proper mooring should be capable of sinking those boats before the mooring blocks move, but once they're under water and creating drag from the flow, they could well move. The tethers would break first, I suspect, but again, they'll just be a bit of interesting flotsam and there will be no "boom". |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:36:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey look, bedrock. Can we put the whole "it's not built on bedrock, it's built on fill" thing to rest now. Bedrock, as in, BED, aka, the BOTTOM rock, this is not! And if they simply "washed off the "bedrock", and then built the dam, then they are truly fucked. Only in Cali 
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:37:00 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:37:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. the Feds assisted with 30% of the initial construction cost. They haven't administered shit with that damn for at least 14 years for sure, since CA decided to turn it into a storage dam instead of a flood control dam. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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20% of the responsibility for dam operations belongs to the feds and is administered by the Army Corps of Engineers. No. the Feds assisted with 30% of the initial construction cost. They haven't administered shit with that damn for at least 14 years for sure, since CA decided to turn it into a storage dam instead of a flood control dam. Is there any documentation on that change from flood control to storage? Everything I can find says it was intended for flood control, hydroelectric generation, and water storage. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:37:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not going around the e-spillway, it's going over the e-spillway and down the wrong side of the hill. That's a fixable problem. But it is.... The water is going over the parking lot and bypassing the spillway, causing earth erosion and turbulence in in the water flow at the end of the e spillway. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:38:55 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:39:31 PM EDT
[#10]
The Emergency spill way should have 1500 feet in the middle about 6 feet shorter that the 100' on either side on the ends. Or the ends should have been 6 feet taller.
Either way, the way it is now means it will never work as designed unless the design was to drain the lake in the event of a catastrophic flood that can't be controlled by the gates. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:39:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there any documentation on that change from flood control to storage? Everything I can find says it was intended for flood control, hydroelectric generation, and water storage. It wasn't a change. A couple pages back there was a YouTube video documentary/puff piece that included Ronaldus Maximus dedicating the damn. He mentioned storage in his dedication. It was always meant for storage. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:41:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there any pictures or video of helicopters moving rocks? I curious to see if I can tell who is doing it. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:41:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The dam is an inflow for multiple streams of water, thus it's a waterSHED. While a watershed dam does indeed hold water, being used as a reservoir is at best a secondary purpose. That's why you build reservoirs, so your dam doesn't get stressed beyond design limits. The state got complacent and skipped on basic maintenance, and got greedy by keeping the watershed filled to such a high level that the kind of storms they saw 15 or 20 years ago overloaded the dam's emergency overflow because they shit the bucket on spillway repair. Now they're paying the piper, and Moonbeam's sitting in his mansion smoking pot while people with no slack in their budgets are forced to evacuate. Typical California government. While the maintence part is true, the waterlevel was below the spillway intake in December... it has come up 200+ feet. It hasn't been kept overfilled.. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:41:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not going around the e-spillway, it's going over the e-spillway and down the wrong side of the hill. That's a fixable problem. That isn't what the video showed. Water was flowing off that parking lot and down the hill to the river. That is why there is a bigass hole they are dropping rocks in right now. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:42:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't be trusted so I fixed it for you. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/369185/map-of-bag-drop-146264.JPG that is what I saw as well, if there is enough flow, its going both ways. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:43:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're probably not anchored, they're probably moored. It's a meaningful difference. Moorings are usually large cement blocks, not just a fork stuck in the mud. A proper mooring should be capable of sinking those boats before the mooring blocks move, but once they're under water and creating drag from the flow, they could well move. The tethers would break first, I suspect, but again, they'll just be a bit of interesting flotsam and there will be no "boom". |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:43:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Direct link for donations: http://nvcf.org/fund/oroville-evacuation-fund/ ETA: "North Valley Community Foundation is collecting donations to support Oroville area residents forced to evacuate due to the Oroville Dam Spillway emergency. 100% of donated funds will go to aid those directly affected by the evacuation. Contributions are tax-deductible: 501(c)(3), EIN 68-0161455." Hit! |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:43:54 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm 400pgs behind...what did I miss?
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:44:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But it is.... The water is going over the parking lot and bypassing the spillway, causing earth erosion and turbulence in in the water flow at the end of the e spillway. Unless it ends in dirt rather than rock - so what? its an emergency spillway - topsoils and shit are going to wash downhill. If it can compromise the weir and cause a failure of the weir structure - it's bad. Otherwise, meh. The hill next to it looks like a pile of rock. most it can do is maybe scour out a bit. Still really like to see some dimensioned drawings of the weir cross section and specs on it's construction (anchorages especially) If it's entirely a gravity structure, I wonder what kind of head it is ale to withstand. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:44:40 PM EDT
[#20]
video of Northern edge of the water flow while it was flowing over the emergency spillway.
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:44:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm 400pgs behind...what did I miss? They built the dam and spillways on sand. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:44:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looks like bedrock to you? Sure looks like loose rocky dirt to me. Yes, it's bedrock.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:45:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But it is.... The water is going over the parking lot and bypassing the spillway, causing earth erosion and turbulence in in the water flow at the end of the e spillway. The spillway extends past the parking lot, it runs right into the hillside. It IS possible that the parking lot, which was built after the spillway, is creating an unforeseen problem. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:45:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Really, really stupid idea: dump a bunch of oil on the opposite side of the reservoir from the dam and light it to facilitate evaporation?
It'll drive the environuts crazy, but if the wind cooperates it might help lower the water level. It can't be as dumb as nuking it 
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:45:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're probably not anchored, they're probably moored. It's a meaningful difference. Moorings are usually large cement blocks, not just a fork stuck in the mud. A proper mooring should be capable of sinking those boats before the mooring blocks move, but once they're under water and creating drag from the flow, they could well move. The tethers would break first, I suspect, but again, they'll just be a bit of interesting flotsam and there will be no "boom". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I assume (maybe stupid of me to) that all the house boats on the far side of the damn are empty and anchored really good? If the Espillway broke it will be moving a ton of surface water and I can see those boats going along for the ride, and those have to contain a good amout of fuel and or propane that can cause nice little booms when they get smashed up against something. I just haven't seen anything new about the boats and it made me think of those. They're probably not anchored, they're probably moored. It's a meaningful difference. Moorings are usually large cement blocks, not just a fork stuck in the mud. A proper mooring should be capable of sinking those boats before the mooring blocks move, but once they're under water and creating drag from the flow, they could well move. The tethers would break first, I suspect, but again, they'll just be a bit of interesting flotsam and there will be no "boom". I was saying boom as I saw boats boom, not like a movie boom, in 93 on the Mississippi River during those floods, it was more of a thump but not a Hollywood explosion
But it was a nice thump they had, it was also a huge tangle of different boats plus a combo of all day the other shit and houses that were washed away. I never thought about moorings on them, you are right on that's probably how they are set and I could see them pulled under first. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:45:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't see how the spillway intakes can be anything other than the gates directly against the lake water, no tunnels or anything. Pretty much any gravity dam I can think of is just a gate. Pretty much like this pic I took of a local dam. Nothing but the lake behind those gates. https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60950_1425638036153_5361579_n.jpg?oh=6fb2c3cca771e14e1d3a1e9e880dd8c8&oe=59329ED6 Unfortunately I can't find a single diagram of how the spillway is constructed on oroville or a single picture of lake side of the spillway when the water level was low. Nevermind, I see they were posted above. No tunnels. That's what I was going off of... the video the guy did of some intakes in the dry lake bed. Of course I can't keep up with the thread and have been corrected. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:47:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryInteresting to note they didn't include the last two times the spillway gates were opened in that graph. Also, water tends to go up at remarkably fast levels when the spillway gates are not opened. They should have gone to 100kcfs last Wednesday after seeing the hole in the ramp, and left it there. It would have delayed today's shitstorm into maybe March. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:48:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True, water supply is part of it. If you read the source I linked on page 131-ish, it was approved for 2.4M Acre Feet per year. They've been running it 50% above that, and therefore lost FERC licensing, since the dam was not designed to be run at that capacity. They planned on having it near double that, at 4.1M AF/year by 2010 "with some modifications". The paper is from 1991, before any of the crap started. All CA Dams have been keeping thier "low pool" higher and higher, making these floods a certainty. It's Engineering a disaster and then blaming the original Design team for it not handling 150% stress for the last 20% of the life of the dam. NOW, add in lack of maintenance. Lack of inspections to decide if maintenance is needed, actually. CA is going to flood, maybe not this week, maybe not this year, but these reservoirs are not going to hold if they keep trying to push the limits year after year after year. Then try to declare "EMERGENCY!" when their fuckup goes sideways. The dam failures I've seen since y2k are all due to the increased water storage due to "Global Warming going to be drought forever" hype, not just in CA. Kinda like Congress spending more and more money, the National Debt gets higher, nothing happens, so they keep doing it. "Hey, it didn't happen on MY watch." |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:48:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryIts bedrock alright, just really rotten bedrock. Under the rotten stuff will be the more solid stuff of course but who knows the depth of that. The rotten stuff can easily have a channel cut through it |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:48:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The spillway extends past the parking lot, it runs right into the hillside. It IS possible that the parking lot, which was built after the spillway, is creating an unforeseen problem. I see that in some of the pics now. I hadn't seen that in the pics before. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:48:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That isn't what the video showed. Water was flowing off that parking lot and down the hill to the river. That is why there is a bigass hole they are dropping rocks in right now. The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:50:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That isn't what the video showed. Water was flowing off that parking lot and down the hill to the river. That is why there is a bigass hole they are dropping rocks in right now. The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. I may of,glossed over it, did anyone say that the Espillway is the same width/depth across the whole thing and by the parking lot it was just backfilled? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:50:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That isn't what the video showed. Water was flowing off that parking lot and down the hill to the river. That is why there is a bigass hole they are dropping rocks in right now. The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. Whatever you say... There are only tons of pics available some on this very page. ETA I stand corrected. that was backfilled and it does extend to the road. Damn. It is still a stupid design that is not going to last having water flow over it like that. 
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:51:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It wasn't a change. A couple pages back there was a YouTube video documentary/puff piece that included Ronaldus Maximus dedicating the damn. He mentioned storage in his dedication. It was always meant for storage. It would be silly to think storage was not part of the rationale for constructing the dam project of this magnitude. The problem comes from Kalis ever increasing thirst, ever increasing storage efforts, and deferring maintenance. There is a reason this Dam lost it's Federal license. It's going to be a long runoff season for California. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:51:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They built the dam and spillways on sand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm 400pgs behind...what did I miss? They built the dam and spillways on sand. And the Arfcom engineering crew is coming out of the basements to rebuild it! |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:53:07 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Arfcom engineering crew is coming out of the basements to rebuild it! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm 400pgs behind...what did I miss? They built the dam and spillways on sand. And the Arfcom engineering crew is coming out of the basements to rebuild it! Right now our basis of design is a "technical illustration" from some MSM article that is based on almost nothing. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:53:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not going around the e-spillway, it's going over the e-spillway and down the wrong side of the hill. That's a fixable problem. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:53:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whatever you say... There are only tons of pics available some on this very page. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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That isn't what the video showed. Water was flowing off that parking lot and down the hill to the river. That is why there is a bigass hole they are dropping rocks in right now. The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. Whatever you say... There are only tons of pics available some on this very page. and they show exactly what he says it shows. The weir structure runs from the dam some 1700'. Its 900' from the dam to the parking lot. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:53:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
its been awhile, but good time to post this... http://www.emergencyemail.org/Default.asp good idea for everyone to sign up and http://www.globalincidentmap.com/ Jesus that emergencymail site is one insanely shitty website. Nearly tops this one I had to make purchases from today http://www.ipearl-inc.com/ |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:54:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that is what I saw as well, if there is enough flow, its going both ways. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You can't be trusted so I fixed it for you. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/369185/map-of-bag-drop-146264.JPG that is what I saw as well, if there is enough flow, its going both ways. The black dot is where they're filling holes, so that's what they have to plug ASAP to prevent any further erosion. The black line is where the water will flow (underneath the weir and through whatever the weir sits on) if the holes are not plugged and the water rises. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:54:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not going around the e-spillway, it's going over the e-spillway and down the wrong side of the hill. That's a fixable problem. Would be a lot more fixable if they had an access road on that side. Pretty sure the only way they can get over to the parking lot side right now is by chopper. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:54:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. This is a correct statement; pay attention and study the photos before and after. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:54:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryNotice the spillway capacity says 650,000 cfs |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:55:15 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Arfcom engineering crew is coming out of the basements to rebuild it! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm 400pgs behind...what did I miss? They built the dam and spillways on sand. And the Arfcom engineering crew is coming out of the basements to rebuild it! Honestly, they'd be better off using those $20k/hr heavy lift helos dropping sandbags around critical areas downstream. What they are doing now may buy them a few days or weeks, not the full season. Though it looks good on TV to make people scream at Trump! See Also "Pissing into the Wind" |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:55:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
north valley community foundation Nvcf I know board members, the money is being distributed straight to the local points of need. I'd prefer to not handle peoples funds. Elks lodge has a bar! |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:56:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryNOT bedrock; see all the fissures and layers? Rock? Yes, but just the top, looser layer. Trust me buddy, I've worked behind a TBM at 400' BELOW what you call bedrock, drilling through solid dolomite limestone; what you're looking at is just large rocks holding hands!! |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:56:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That isn't what the video showed. Water was flowing off that parking lot and down the hill to the river. That is why there is a bigass hole they are dropping rocks in right now. The parking lot is behind the e-spillway, not next to it. The e-spillway goes all the way to the road next to the parking lot. You can see the e-spillway in this Google Earth view. It extends along the parking lot and appears to be at the same level. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5459044,-121.4943545,3a,90y,213.61h,67.94t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s-Nl1qwePcY3c%2FVvRnb_nfzBI%2FAAAAAAABBx4%2FmbkrVQhW3FMQgp-zY5SjyuyG6rFYgGgDQCLIB!2e4!3e11!6s%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2F-Nl1qwePcY3c%2FVvRnb_nfzBI%2FAAAAAAABBx4%2FmbkrVQhW3FMQgp-zY5SjyuyG6rFYgGgDQCLIB%2Fw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya282.80884-ro0-fo100%2F!7i7680!8i3840 |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:56:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
video of Northern edge of the water flow while it was flowing over the emergency spillway.
I'm on a phone but us that concrete at 50 seconds o so of the vid |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:56:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and they show exactly what he says it shows. The weir structure runs from the dam some 1700'. Its 900' from the dam to the parking lot. I see it from a completely different perspective now. It is still stupid to have built that parking lot there. That parking lot should be at least 10 feet taller than than the top of the spillway. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 10:56:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Notice the spillway capacity says 650,000 cfs I'd like to see that 
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