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Six months before rushing water ripped a huge hole in a channel that drains a Northern California reservoir, state inspectors said the concrete spillway was sound. As officials puzzle through how to repair Oroville Dam spillway, federal regulators have ordered the state to figure out what went wrong. Earlier inspection reports offer potential clues, including cracks on the spillway surface that if not properly repaired could let water tear through the concrete. In recent years, construction crews patched cracks — including in the area where water burrowed a huge pit last week. to the main spillway triggered a series of problems culminating with the first use of the emergency spillway, which quickly began eroding and threatened to unleash a torrent of water on cities downstream. On Tuesday, officials said the immediate danger had passed, and allowed nearly 200,000 residents to go home after evacuation orders scattered them for nearly two days.The gushing waters of the Feather River, downstream from a damaged dam, draw curious onlookers Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2017, in Oroville, Calif. Workers are rushing to repair the barrier at the nation's tallest dam after authorities on Sunday ordered the evacuation for everyone living below the lake amid concerns the spillway could fail and send water roaring downstream.AP Marcio Jose Sanchez Inspectors with the state agency that both operates and checks the dam, the nation's tallest at 770 feet, walked the half-mile-long spillway in 2014 and 2015 and did not find any concerns. "Conditions appeared to be normal," the inspector wrote in reports from both years. Last August, a team of inspectors did not check the channel on foot but instead from afar, also concluding that everything looked fine. The inspection came as California was enduring a five-year drought, and the channel rarely was used to relieve pressure on Oroville Lake, which is about 70 miles north of Sacramento. An extraordinarily wet subsequent six months changed that. Dam managers were draining water from the fast-filling reservoir into the Feather River below when the pit appeared last week. Experts said problems like the cracks in the concrete spillway and spots in nearby areas where water seeped from the reservoir through a hillside were common issues with dams. What mattered, said John Moyle, New Jersey's director of dam safety and flood control, was whether dam operators dealt with the problems carefully — patching cracks so they were watertight, and dealing with spots where water was leaking through so they didn't grow to undermine the concrete. The Department of Water Resources declined to answer specific questions about the repair work, saying engineers were focused on ensuring public safety. Robert Bea, professor emeritus of civil and environmental engineering at University of California, Berkeley, said it's "obvious those repairs didn't work." "We don't have details on the repairs, but they put cement into the cracks and troweled it over," Bea said. "I call it 'patch and pray.'" On Monday, federal regulators told the department it must enlist a group of independent consultants both to assess what went wrong and to recommend long-term fixes. Documents and interviews show that crews were patching cracks in 2009 and 2013. A water resources department spokesman said it was normal for maintenance crews to be troubleshooting cracks in the channel during dry summer months. One resident of the region said he saw crews in the spillway at least once a year for the past several years. "When they have four or five trucks down there, the only thing they have to do is fill cracks," said Don Reighley, a retiree and fisherman who several times a week drives past the channel to launch his boat into the reservoir. One of the state inspectors who went to Oroville Dam in August said authorities may never know exactly what destabilized the spillway. "Any type of evidence that might have been there is gone," Eric Holland of the water resources department's dam safety division said. "Everything has been washed away." |
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2 reasons I'm aware of. 1. They are doing work down at the debris pile in the river. 2. They are getting close to lake level 850 and have to reduce flow to avoid eroding the channel inside the lake and sending debris through the gate house and down the spillway. View Quote I can see that, but inflow is 45kcfs I suppose if they get the stilling basin cleared out for the power plant to output water, that'd be a good reason. I guess I'm thinking too far ahead in actually fixing any deficiencies for increased flow, while they are busy swapping out bubble gum with 'more permanent' duct tape. |
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I have no idea what you said. Why? Because I don't care. Why? Because of that's stupid, obnoxious color. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted:Only a sick person would be hoping for something bad to happen here. So about 30% of the General Discussion posters? Like the socialist and Marxist have made Trump into their monster allowing all things possibly bad to be said about him including his death the General Discussion have made the state and people of California the focus of their rage. It's been that way for twenty years here. I have no idea what you said. Why? Because I don't care. Why? Because of that's stupid, obnoxious color. |
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Wonder how many $$$ they have in on this to date and how much they intend to spend before next flood season. There was an original rectal grope of quarter of a billion dollars at the beginning. Wonder of that's still in the ballpark.
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That's one hell of a drought you have going on in Kali. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Southern California right now!https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/IMG-1254-149051.JPG That's one hell of a drought you have going on in Kali. They're drowning in drought. |
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Six months before rushing water ripped a huge hole in a channel that drains a Northern California reservoir, state inspectors said the concrete spillway was sound. z View Quote I bet the idiot inspector doesn't even get fired. At most he gets reassigned to a different department. Guess what happened in 1997, also on a Tuesday? The same damn thing "A gaping hole — some 250 feet long and 45 feet deep — appeared Tuesday in the lower part of the spillway, which sits on dirt." http://usa-general.com/los-angeles/at-oroville-dam-a-break-in-the-storms-gives-engineers-hope.html So they had this problem before yet the inspector completely missed it. Granted that was 20 years ago but there should have been a big note in dams profile, "lower end sits on dirt and has previously failed". Then you would think after 5 years of not using that might be one thing they would check for. Apparently not. Government employees that their finest. |
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I did the calculation a while back but didn't post it, thanks for putting it in print. You know, it really is hard to imagine 6.25 million pounds of water per second, it really puts into perspective the size of the gates and the engineering involved to create this dam, and the incredible forces that are being exerted upon the open hole and fissures in the rock holding the lower part of the spillway. I'm amazed it is holding together as well as it is right now, and why I still have that "ominous feeling" about it all. View Quote That isn't really the way it works... That might be the weight of the volume of water, but pressure is not the same as weight of water. |
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Wonder how many $$ they have in on this to date and how much they intend to spend before next flood season. There was an original rectal grope of quarter of a billion dollars at the beginning. Wonder of that's still in the ballpark. View Quote They have probably spent more on half assed repairs and helo flight time then they would have had to on solid repairs done the right way a year ago... |
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They have probably spent more on half assed repairs and helo flight time then they would have had to on solid repairs done the right way a year ago... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wonder how many $ they have in on this to date and how much they intend to spend before next flood season. There was an original rectal grope of quarter of a billion dollars at the beginning. Wonder of that's still in the ballpark. They have probably spent more on half assed repairs and helo flight time then they would have had to on solid repairs done the right way a year ago... And they are just getting started! The bottom half of the spillway will be major. |
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Does nobody realize that half of the entire state of California is rural red maga country? Seems like some folls think everone here surfs daily and is a retard lib. Lots to learn. This is Jefferson State up here. Npr is JPR and it doesnt suck. View Quote CA is a beautiful state, with millions of great Americans in it. The retardation is correlated with population density and the coasts have disproportionately large cities. Some folks seem so angry about the stereotype they can't think straight. |
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I bet the idiot inspector doesn't even get fired. At most he gets reassigned to a different department. Guess what happened in 1997, also on a Tuesday? The same damn thing "A gaping hole — some 250 feet long and 45 feet deep — appeared Tuesday in the lower part of the spillway, which sits on dirt." http://usa-general.com/los-angeles/at-oroville-dam-a-break-in-the-storms-gives-engineers-hope.html So they had this problem before yet the inspector completely missed it. Granted that was 20 years ago but there should have been a big note in dams profile, "lower end sits on dirt and has previously failed". Then you would think after 5 years of not using that might be one thing they would check for. Apparently not. Government employees that their finest. View Quote I think you misread. The article said in '97 the E-spill was nearly utilized, not that the spillway failed. |
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Don't believe there were any voids beneath the spillway, when it was built. After years of neglect ymmv. Corners of concrete chip fairly easily. When the slab fell into the washed out area beneath it, it probably didn't fall straight down. View Quote Have no doubt, voids will form in fill underneath concrete. We had a section of aircraft parking ramp at McGuire AFB that needed to be replaced with thicker concrete that we suspected had started forming voids. When it would rain you could see air bubbles blowing out of the seams between concrete slabs as the voids filled with water. When those slabs were replaced there were a couple of voids large enough for cars or trucks to fall into. Somewhere in the 8'x20' range. Old slabs torn out, the voids filled with packed gravel instead of sand and new, thicker concrete poured on top (21" versus 11" due to new requirements for heavier aircraft). We never could figure out where the flowing water came from that washed away the sand that had been put there in the 1940s. But in 50 years even at he low elevations in ground that is nearly swamp at times, the water flowed enough to move tons of sand out from underneath a dozen or so 25'x25' concrete slabs. |
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That isn't really the way it works... That might be the weight of the volume of water, but pressure is not the same as weight of water. View Quote Show me where I said that. It was a figure offered just for its own sake, which I guessed no one had tossed into the discussion. You read more into it than there was. |
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Have no doubt, voids will form in fill underneath concrete. We had a section of aircraft parking ramp at McGuire AFB that needed to be replaced with thicker concrete that we suspected had started forming voids. When it would rain you could see air bubbles blowing out of the seams between concrete slabs as the voids filled with water. When those slabs were replaced there were a couple of voids large enough for cars or trucks to fall into. Somewhere in the 8'x20' range. Old slabs torn out, the voids filled with packed gravel instead of sand and new, thicker concrete poured on top (21" versus 11" due to new requirements for heavier aircraft). We never could figure out where the flowing water came from that washed away the sand that had been put there in the 1940s. But in 50 years even at he low elevations in ground that is nearly swamp at times, the water flowed enough to move tons of sand out from underneath a dozen or so 25'x25' concrete slabs. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Don't believe there were any voids beneath the spillway, when it was built. After years of neglect ymmv. Corners of concrete chip fairly easily. When the slab fell into the washed out area beneath it, it probably didn't fall straight down. When those slabs were replaced there were a couple of voids large enough for cars or trucks to fall into. Somewhere in the 8'x20' range. Old slabs torn out, the voids filled with packed gravel instead of sand and new, thicker concrete poured on top (21" versus 11" due to new requirements for heavier aircraft). We never could figure out where the flowing water came from that washed away the sand that had been put there in the 1940s. But in 50 years even at he low elevations in ground that is nearly swamp at times, the water flowed enough to move tons of sand out from underneath a dozen or so 25'x25' concrete slabs. Unless they combined their visual inspections with something like a ground penetrating radar, I'm not sure how they could have noted anything other than surface cracks in the spillway. |
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Unless they combined their visual inspections with something like a ground penetrating radar, I'm not sure how they could have noted anything other than surface cracks in the spillway. View Quote Would that be true for any dam? If so, is it normal to do that as part of a periodic inspection? |
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I would think, considering the forces involved on that spillway, they would have done so when they found damage and patched it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Would that be true for any dam? If so, is it normal to do that as part of a periodic inspection? I would think, considering the forces involved on that spillway, they would have done so when they found damage and patched it. I'm clearly speculating, but considering soil tends to compact, shift, move, erode, etc., I would have thought there would have been more extensive / intrusive inspections, especially considering the space / distance the spillway consumes. |
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Would that be true for any dam? If so, is it normal to do that as part of a periodic inspection? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Unless they combined their visual inspections with something like a ground penetrating radar, I'm not sure how they could have noted anything other than surface cracks in the spillway. Would that be true for any dam? If so, is it normal to do that as part of a periodic inspection? Ground penetrating radar (GPR) is common enough now that most state highway departments have several towed units they do yearly surveys of the interstates in their states. Certainly not like it was 20-25 years ago when it took us getting one brought in by a contractor to survey the MAFB parking ramp. I can't imagine DWR not having access to a GPR unit either by borrowing one from CalDOT or by hiring a contractor. It isn't like they are still experimental devices or something. |
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Southern California right now!https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/IMG-1254-149051.JPG View Quote |
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This was Disneyland on Thursady: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/102931/disneyland-rain-149299.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Southern California right now!https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/IMG-1254-149051.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/102931/disneyland-rain-149299.jpg Thar isn't where the river boat goes, is it? |
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Post #1005 over at metabunk has some good information on the spillway; 90% on bedrock and 10% built on concrete backfill. Mick follows in #1009 with some good documents on hydraulic aspects at Oroville.
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I bet the idiot inspector doesn't even get fired. At most he gets reassigned to a different department. Guess what happened in 1997, also on a Tuesday? The same damn thing "A gaping hole — some 250 feet long and 45 feet deep — appeared Tuesday in the lower part of the spillway, which sits on dirt." http://usa-general.com/los-angeles/at-oroville-dam-a-break-in-the-storms-gives-engineers-hope.html So they had this problem before yet the inspector completely missed it. Granted that was 20 years ago but there should have been a big note in dams profile, "lower end sits on dirt and has previously failed". Then you would think after 5 years of not using that might be one thing they would check for. Apparently not. Government employees that their finest. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Six months before rushing water ripped a huge hole in a channel that drains a Northern California reservoir, state inspectors said the concrete spillway was sound. z I bet the idiot inspector doesn't even get fired. At most he gets reassigned to a different department. Guess what happened in 1997, also on a Tuesday? The same damn thing "A gaping hole — some 250 feet long and 45 feet deep — appeared Tuesday in the lower part of the spillway, which sits on dirt." http://usa-general.com/los-angeles/at-oroville-dam-a-break-in-the-storms-gives-engineers-hope.html So they had this problem before yet the inspector completely missed it. Granted that was 20 years ago but there should have been a big note in dams profile, "lower end sits on dirt and has previously failed". Then you would think after 5 years of not using that might be one thing they would check for. Apparently not. Government employees that their finest. It wasn't just 1 guy with a flashlight inspecting that spillway. It would have been a team. I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's an engineer on that team furiously forwarding his emails to a private account documenting all of his objections to the report. If those ever see the light of day it'll get real fun real quick. |
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This was Disneyland on Thursady: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/102931/disneyland-rain-149299.jpg View Quote That's just Goofy! |
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Sorry but good guys in CA failed to protect there state and allowed it to be taken over by commie shits and have allowed there POS state to endanger the free states. They lost there territory and they should leave and stop supporting the idiots. Voting with there feet is all that's left for them. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Commiefagians and their green fonts. That whole state needs to break off and sink in the Pacific Ocean. Does nobody realize that half of the entire state of California is rural red maga country? Seems like some folls think everone here surfs daily and is a retard lib. . Sorry but good guys in CA failed to protect there state and allowed it to be taken over by commie shits and have allowed there POS state to endanger the free states. They lost there territory and they should leave and stop supporting the idiots. Voting with there feet is all that's left for them. |
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I'm adding some stuff found on the metabunk thread on this since it's very.. pertinent. From The Book of The Dams Looking back through the history, they've completely ignored that requirement, not really even treating it as a suggestion. I wonder how much extra stress the ramp/spillway went through when they did release water because they were at the "Fed Gov noticed and are mad" levels? There is an annotated photo of one of the "watering gates" from 2007 showing no flow from it, It just happens to be above the upper left corner of the upper left -> lower right void that the original ramp fell into starting this whole mess. Even if it trickled just a little bit each time the spillway was run for the last decade, I can see it creating the cavity under the spillway ramp. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/41058/mainspillway-nodrain2007-149307.jpg View Quote To be honest, I expect that that limit isn't listed as a restriction for the sake of the spillway, but for flow of the river downstream. Mike |
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I think you misread. The article said in '97 the E-spill was nearly utilized, not that the spillway failed. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I bet the idiot inspector doesn't even get fired. At most he gets reassigned to a different department. Guess what happened in 1997, also on a Tuesday? The same damn thing "A gaping hole — some 250 feet long and 45 feet deep — appeared Tuesday in the lower part of the spillway, which sits on dirt." http://usa-general.com/los-angeles/at-oroville-dam-a-break-in-the-storms-gives-engineers-hope.html So they had this problem before yet the inspector completely missed it. Granted that was 20 years ago but there should have been a big note in dams profile, "lower end sits on dirt and has previously failed". Then you would think after 5 years of not using that might be one thing they would check for. Apparently not. Government employees that their finest. I think you misread. The article said in '97 the E-spill was nearly utilized, not that the spillway failed. Apparently so. Google has been reporting wrong dates all day. Not sure what is going on but they dated that article and many other articles 1997. With no date on the story, the 1997 date on Google, and the 1997 down stream evacuation in the article I just figured the whole thing was from 1997. |
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I'm adding some stuff found on the metabunk thread on this since it's very.. pertinent. From The Book of The Dams Looking back through the history, they've completely ignored that requirement, not really even treating it as a suggestion. I wonder how much extra stress the ramp/spillway went through when they did release water because they were at the "Fed Gov noticed and are mad" levels? There is an annotated photo of one of the "watering gates" from 2007 showing no flow from it, It just happens to be above the upper left corner of the upper left -> lower right void that the original ramp fell into starting this whole mess. Even if it trickled just a little bit each time the spillway was run for the last decade, I can see it creating the cavity under the spillway ramp. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/41058/mainspillway-nodrain2007-149307.jpg View Quote So the theory is that is what caused the sink hole under the spillway? |
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It wasn't just 1 guy with a flashlight inspecting that spillway. It would have been a team. I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's an engineer on that team furiously forwarding his emails to a private account documenting all of his objections to the report. If those ever see the light of day it'll get real fun real quick. View Quote When I worked building a highway 20 years ago they had some sort of nuclear density testing machine that they ran to tell if the asphalt that was laid was sound enough. They now have the portable ground penetrating sonar systems. One would assume that part of the inspection would have included at least a couple passes up and down the spillway with either one of those types of devices just to make sure there was no settlement under the concrete and to make sure the concrete itself was retaining the density they expected. |
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Apparently so. Google has been reporting wrong dates all day. Not sure what is going on but they dated that article and many other articles 1997. With no date on the story, the 1997 date on Google, and the 1997 down stream evacuation in the article I just figured the whole thing was from 1997. http://www.afterhourtechs.com/misc/spillway_1997.JPG View Quote LOTS of shady "Search Engine Optimizing" companies have destroyed finding good data on the dam easily. It was OK when this thread started, but turned to crap quickly. Unrelated documents from random dates had the latest headline jacked in, PDFs were renamed, and stuff like that. People that do that need to be taken out behind the Internet and shot. |
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So the theory is that is what caused the sink hole under the spillway? View Quote Someone mentioned previously in the thread. Those weep holes in the side of the spillway are to let water in the ground drain out and not get under the spillway itself. Apparently they run all the time which pretty much suggests water has been under the spillway the whole time. The part of the spillway that remains must be built on rock but the part that eroded was on dirt. When you have under ground moving water transition from rock to dirt you get a sink hole. |
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