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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:39:22 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Your1Savior Do you think that dealers honoring x-plan or z-plan will ever come back in the foreseeable future? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just goes to prove you have no clue what you're talking about or think you know. Also, I'm willing to put up the money this very moment to purchase your home for its 2019 valuation, comrade. Do you think that dealers honoring x-plan or z-plan will ever come back in the foreseeable future? @rfm05 This year, absolutely not. Granted, I'm fleet/commercial side now, but sell a healthy amount of retail also. We're one of the largest fleet dealers in the region and Ford has us on a 9-12 months lead time for Super Duties and Transits. We thankfully had the foresight back in January of 2021 to start buying up as much inventory as humanly possible. While everyone else ran out of trucks and vans half way through the year, we still had a strong inventory and commanded the market. We finally sold out in December with all the last minute tax deduction purchases. Sold out...... we are scheduled to get more Super Duties and Transits in JULY We have been raping and pillaging our retail allocations for trucks and the market adjustments keep going up higher and higher and regular consumers and businesses keep buying. There is no end in sight |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:39:40 PM EST
[#2]
“Fair profit”
“Rent seeking” Communists galore in here. I’m a capitalist. I bought a brand new 2019 F250 platinum with msrp of $79k for $65k in 2019. Fast forward to 2021. Delarship offered me $65k for my 1.5 year old truck with 30k miles. I went ahead and ordered a 2022 F250 limited with msrp of $91k for $86k on may 2021. Got my new truck first week of this year. Went back to old dealership and sold my 2019 F250 with 45k miles for $72,000. I took full advantage of the market because I’m not a retarded crybaby. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:41:37 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @rfm05 This year, absolutely not. Granted, I'm fleet/commercial side now, but sell a healthy amount of retail also. We're one of the largest fleet dealers in the region and Ford has us on a 9-12 months lead time for Super Duties and Transits. We thankfully had the foresight back in January of 2021 to start buying up as much inventory as humanly possible. While everyone else ran out of trucks and vans half way through the year, we still had a strong inventory and commanded the market. We finally sold out in December with all the last minute tax deduction purchases. Sold out...... we are scheduled to get more Super Duties and Transits in JULY We have been raping and pillaging our retail allocations for trucks and the market adjustments keep going up higher and higher and regular consumers and businesses keep buying. There is no end in sight Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to prove you have no clue what you're talking about or think you know. Also, I'm willing to put up the money this very moment to purchase your home for its 2019 valuation, comrade. Do you think that dealers honoring x-plan or z-plan will ever come back in the foreseeable future? @rfm05 This year, absolutely not. Granted, I'm fleet/commercial side now, but sell a healthy amount of retail also. We're one of the largest fleet dealers in the region and Ford has us on a 9-12 months lead time for Super Duties and Transits. We thankfully had the foresight back in January of 2021 to start buying up as much inventory as humanly possible. While everyone else ran out of trucks and vans half way through the year, we still had a strong inventory and commanded the market. We finally sold out in December with all the last minute tax deduction purchases. Sold out...... we are scheduled to get more Super Duties and Transits in JULY We have been raping and pillaging our retail allocations for trucks and the market adjustments keep going up higher and higher and regular consumers and businesses keep buying. There is no end in sight There are plenty of Ford dealerships that will let you order at invoice, or below. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:44:36 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are literally state laws preventing that. Auto dealerships are literally a classic example of rent-seeking. The don’t build, improve, create, design, etc. the product There are laws in place protecting their stranglehold on the product. The dealer adjusted markups for straight to the dealer and no profits to those actually building the product. It’s one of the dirty aspects of capitalism. The world does not advance and nothing improves because of middle men. Laws going into place that prevented direct sales in any state where there was a franchise was a grimy political, business deal to milk money out of the buyer. There could still be warranty and service franchises that also sold used. Manufacturers don't want to retail and they're not good at it. They require dealers to spend multimillions of dollars to build and operate facilities to do that for them. Franchise laws protect dealers from getting fucked by the manufacturer. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:44:56 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All anyone has to do is negotiate from the ADM instead of MSRP. I'm guessing that in your dealerships, it's not just *here's the price, take it or leave it*. Negotiation is still taking place. Exactly like we did it in 1985... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's right. And the dealers that are trying to get over market demand will destroy their business. If they don't maintain market share and turn rate they eventually won't have anything to sell. All anyone has to do is negotiate from the ADM instead of MSRP. I'm guessing that in your dealerships, it's not just *here's the price, take it or leave it*. Negotiation is still taking place. Exactly like we did it in 1985... @laydown Can't speak for everyone, but our average FPVR is right around 18-20 There is not much negotiation taking place |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:46:35 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Fair profit” “Rent seeking” Communists galore in here. I’m a capitalist. I bought a brand new 2019 F250 platinum with msrp of $79k for $65k in 2019. Fast forward to 2021. Delarship offered me $65k for my 1.5 year old truck with 30k miles. I went ahead and ordered a 2022 F250 limited with msrp of $91k for $86k on may 2021. Got my new truck first week of this year. Went back to old dealership and sold my 2019 F250 with 45k miles for $72,000. I took full advantage of the market because I’m not a retarded crybaby.  Attached FileCapitalism - how does it work I'm considering ordering a 2022 Lincoln Nautilus Black Label. Simply because they will order and guarantee pricing under MSRP and pay more for my trade than I paid for it 8 months ago. It's about taking advantage of the market instead of whining about price controls. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:46:51 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please give us an example. Medical care. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:49:11 PM EST
[#8]
Stealerships.
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:50:58 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Manufacturers don't want to retail and they're not good at it. They require dealers to spend multimillions of dollars to build and operate facilities to do that for them. Franchise laws protect dealers from getting fucked by the manufacturer. Fuck Over Retail Dealers  |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:57:02 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are plenty of Ford dealerships that will let you order at invoice, or below. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to prove you have no clue what you're talking about or think you know. Also, I'm willing to put up the money this very moment to purchase your home for its 2019 valuation, comrade. Do you think that dealers honoring x-plan or z-plan will ever come back in the foreseeable future? @rfm05 This year, absolutely not. Granted, I'm fleet/commercial side now, but sell a healthy amount of retail also. We're one of the largest fleet dealers in the region and Ford has us on a 9-12 months lead time for Super Duties and Transits. We thankfully had the foresight back in January of 2021 to start buying up as much inventory as humanly possible. While everyone else ran out of trucks and vans half way through the year, we still had a strong inventory and commanded the market. We finally sold out in December with all the last minute tax deduction purchases. Sold out...... we are scheduled to get more Super Duties and Transits in JULY We have been raping and pillaging our retail allocations for trucks and the market adjustments keep going up higher and higher and regular consumers and businesses keep buying. There is no end in sight There are plenty of Ford dealerships that will let you order at invoice, or below. Name 5 dealers letting you order at, or below, invoice. And clearly you don't understand how allocations work. Each dealer is only allocated so many of xyz model. You don't get additional allocations until a unit is RDR'd and delivered. So for example, you have 10 allocations and because you have no inventory, those 10 go to orders. Order lead time runs 5 months. When those trucks are delivered 6 months later, you can then submit 10 more orders wait 6 more months and wash, rinse, repeat. It is not sustainable and you're likely dealing with the lowest common denominator IQ dealer that will be forced to close his business because he doesn't have enough revenue to keep the lights on and the staff employed. When dealers like that run out of allocations, our market adjustments just go higher |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:59:38 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So hold on... They're giving you $7-10k over your pre-shortage trade-in value, but you won't do the deal because you perceive you are over paying for a new one?  I love the hypocrisy in these threads Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Geez....be clear. Did you pay sticker or $15,000 over sticker? Sticker, no D & H. I would never pay a penny over for anything. They had a F-150 Tremor 402A for $5K over sticker. Told me they'd give me $44k for my 2019 Lariat F-150 with 47k miles. If they sold the Tremor at sticker I'd do it, but they wont since it's an abandoned order turned out to stock. Fucking absurd... So hold on... They're giving you $7-10k over your pre-shortage trade-in value, but you won't do the deal because you perceive you are over paying for a new one? I love the hypocrisy in these threads No different than the brain surgeons who think used glocks should only cost $300 yet list theirs for $500 and then cry price gouging. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 1:01:35 PM EST
[#12]
Middle of America - its MSRP still.
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Posted: 1/22/2022 1:15:13 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All anyone has to do is negotiate from the ADM instead of MSRP. I'm guessing that in your dealerships, it's not just *here's the price, take it or leave it*. Negotiation is still taking place. Exactly like we did it in 1985... No, nothing has really changed for me. It's a market driven pricing strategy. I want to have the highest turn rate possible so I can earn as much inventory as I can. I'm an independent dealer (not a public company) so I don't have to worry about satisfying investors for quarterly earning. I want to protect and grow my business for the long term. Because of lower volumes, I do have to maintain a higher gross profit per vehicle in order to stay profitable. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 1:31:48 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're wasting your breath. They don't want to hear the truth. New car buyers have spent the last 25 years playing dealers against each other to buy a car as cheaply as possible. All the while laughing at how they screwed those * evil car dealers *. Now, the shoe is on the other foot, and the whining is full throttle. When I started selling cars in the 80's, we had an ADM, and we negotiated from it. Just like today. Everything old is new again. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most people don't realize that vehicle sales is one of the lowest profit percentages of anything consumer good. You make a grand or two on a 10-20k vehicle. Maybe 4-5k on a 75-100k vehicle. (Not including the current market of "area adjustment" over msrp. So basically a dealer makes about 5% or less from you on a purchase. Still customers b**h and moan about dealers.... Yet you will go buy a pair of jeans or shoes, or anything for that matter, that the company is making 35-75% profit on....  You're wasting your breath. They don't want to hear the truth. New car buyers have spent the last 25 years playing dealers against each other to buy a car as cheaply as possible. All the while laughing at how they screwed those * evil car dealers *. Now, the shoe is on the other foot, and the whining is full throttle. When I started selling cars in the 80's, we had an ADM, and we negotiated from it. Just like today. Everything old is new again. "Playing dealers against each other to buy a car as cheaply as possible" - sounds to me like shopping around for deals makes dealers whine about customers not being good little piggybanks who just pay what the dealers want them to pay. 
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Posted: 1/22/2022 1:33:23 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crazy Dave's Discount Clapout Emporium. 'Better copyright that... Looks like a potentially legit name for a used car lot |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:26:08 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Name 5 dealers letting you order at, or below, invoice. And clearly you don't understand how allocations work. Each dealer is only allocated so many of xyz model. You don't get additional allocations until a unit is RDR'd and delivered. So for example, you have 10 allocations and because you have no inventory, those 10 go to orders. Order lead time runs 5 months. When those trucks are delivered 6 months later, you can then submit 10 more orders wait 6 more months and wash, rinse, repeat. It is not sustainable and you're likely dealing with the lowest common denominator IQ dealer that will be forced to close his business because he doesn't have enough revenue to keep the lights on and the staff employed. When dealers like that run out of allocations, our market adjustments just go higher “Name 5!!l” As opposed to the ZERO you claim? Go to a super duty forum, online or Facebook group. I know off the top of my head Granger Ford Iowa, forget the name of one in Pennsylvania, Freedom ford Mcalester OK… On the forums there are at least 4 that are BELOW invoice by 2-4%. (Granger and the Pennsylvania one being 2 of them. Aside from that, there are ones local to me in Oklahoma doing invoice, invoice plus $1k, or invoice plus $2k. If you’re calling me a liar and would like to put something on the line for me to provide you the exact dealership names, person to speak with along with address, phone number, email, and what deal they are publicly offering, then post something worth my time to gather the info for you. Eta: Here is Granger Ford posting: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1671121-2-under-invoice-on-new-super-duty-order-46.html |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:26:09 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So hold on... They're giving you $7-10k over your pre-shortage trade-in value, but you won't do the deal because you perceive you are over paying for a new one? I love the hypocrisy in these threads Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Geez....be clear. Did you pay sticker or $15,000 over sticker? Sticker, no D & H. I would never pay a penny over for anything. They had a F-150 Tremor 402A for $5K over sticker. Told me they'd give me $44k for my 2019 Lariat F-150 with 47k miles. If they sold the Tremor at sticker I'd do it, but they wont since it's an abandoned order turned out to stock. Fucking absurd... So hold on... They're giving you $7-10k over your pre-shortage trade-in value, but you won't do the deal because you perceive you are over paying for a new one? I love the hypocrisy in these threads Yeah there’s also a lot of reality being denied for sure. You play the vehicle buying game to the best of your ability, or you don’t. Your choice. I know people who don’t like to dicker, they walk in and pay full freight, even pre Covid. Me, I do my research and find the best deal I can, fully willing to walk if it doesn’t feel right. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:29:52 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @laydown Can't speak for everyone, but our average FPVR is right around 18-20 There is not much negotiation taking place Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's right. And the dealers that are trying to get over market demand will destroy their business. If they don't maintain market share and turn rate they eventually won't have anything to sell. All anyone has to do is negotiate from the ADM instead of MSRP. I'm guessing that in your dealerships, it's not just *here's the price, take it or leave it*. Negotiation is still taking place. Exactly like we did it in 1985... @laydown Can't speak for everyone, but our average FPVR is right around 18-20 There is not much negotiation taking place Depends on a lot. Places close to me have no inventory so they aren’t dickering. Like people paying full sticker price for a 3k+ mile demo (we all know how those are treated!) because it’s the only one in the area, but if you look around and are willing to drive you can find some deals. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:38:04 PM EST
[#19]
In today episode of WTf, we blame capitalism for working as intended.
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:43:10 PM EST
[#20]
 Attached FileI don’t think this truck cost that much when it was new. I’m sure they will get someone to buy it. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:48:10 PM EST
[#21]
No way I'd pay over MSRP.
Different dealer. Different state. Different whatever. Few months ago, I ordered a Mustang convertible and it arrived 11 weeks later, 2k off MSRP. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 2:55:59 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Name 5!!l” As opposed to the ZERO you claim? Go to a super duty forum, online or Facebook group. I know off the top of my head Granger Ford Iowa, forget the name of one in Pennsylvania, Freedom ford Mcalester OK… On the forums there are at least 4 that are BELOW invoice by 2-4%. (Granger and the Pennsylvania one being 2 of them. Aside from that, there are ones local to me in Oklahoma doing invoice, invoice plus $1k, or invoice plus $2k. If you’re calling me a liar and would like to put something on the line for me to provide you the exact dealership names, person to speak with along with address, phone number, email, and what deal they are publicly offering, then post something worth my time to gather the info for you. Eta: Here is Granger Ford posting: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1671121-2-under-invoice-on-new-super-duty-order-46.html Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Name 5 dealers letting you order at, or below, invoice. And clearly you don't understand how allocations work. Each dealer is only allocated so many of xyz model. You don't get additional allocations until a unit is RDR'd and delivered. So for example, you have 10 allocations and because you have no inventory, those 10 go to orders. Order lead time runs 5 months. When those trucks are delivered 6 months later, you can then submit 10 more orders wait 6 more months and wash, rinse, repeat. It is not sustainable and you're likely dealing with the lowest common denominator IQ dealer that will be forced to close his business because he doesn't have enough revenue to keep the lights on and the staff employed. When dealers like that run out of allocations, our market adjustments just go higher “Name 5!!l” As opposed to the ZERO you claim? Go to a super duty forum, online or Facebook group. I know off the top of my head Granger Ford Iowa, forget the name of one in Pennsylvania, Freedom ford Mcalester OK… On the forums there are at least 4 that are BELOW invoice by 2-4%. (Granger and the Pennsylvania one being 2 of them. Aside from that, there are ones local to me in Oklahoma doing invoice, invoice plus $1k, or invoice plus $2k. If you’re calling me a liar and would like to put something on the line for me to provide you the exact dealership names, person to speak with along with address, phone number, email, and what deal they are publicly offering, then post something worth my time to gather the info for you. Eta: Here is Granger Ford posting: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1671121-2-under-invoice-on-new-super-duty-order-46.html @Waynehead05 I didn't claim zero of anything You stated there are "plenty of dealerships" I asked you to name an extremely meager 5 dealerships out of thousands. I frankly don't give a shit about your tiny small down dealers that will be out of allocations instantaneously and will lie to you about realistic lead times, either knowingly or unknowingly, that your order will take 6 months to 2 years to come in. While in the meantime we're selling more units in a month than they do in a year and we're doing it with market adjustments. Perhaps I asked for the names of the dealers so we can purchase them when they shutter their doors  |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:01:50 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Self-correcting problem. If only. It's entrenched |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:02:29 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Manufacturers don't want to retail and they're not good at it. They require dealers to spend multimillions of dollars to build and operate facilities to do that for them. Franchise laws protect dealers from getting fucked by the manufacturer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There are literally state laws preventing that. Auto dealerships are literally a classic example of rent-seeking. The don’t build, improve, create, design, etc. the product There are laws in place protecting their stranglehold on the product. The dealer adjusted markups for straight to the dealer and no profits to those actually building the product. It’s one of the dirty aspects of capitalism. The world does not advance and nothing improves because of middle men. Laws going into place that prevented direct sales in any state where there was a franchise was a grimy political, business deal to milk money out of the buyer. There could still be warranty and service franchises that also sold used. Manufacturers don't want to retail and they're not good at it. They require dealers to spend multimillions of dollars to build and operate facilities to do that for them. Franchise laws protect dealers from getting fucked by the manufacturer. How about we do away with state laws preventing manufacturer direct sales and let the free market decide without government involvement. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:10:14 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In today episode of WTf, we blame capitalism for working as intended. Again- This is not free market capitalism. This is legally protected government intervention stifling the free market. I’m perfectly willing to compete with what dealers are paying a manufacturer. GD can decide to buy their size 46 waist 5.11 pants from amazing, another company, at a store, or direct from 5.11. There are no state laws forbidding 5.11 from selling direct to us, other companies buying from 5.11 and selling to us, limiting my options to buying only from retail 5.11 franchises who have decided to sell for over MSRP. Yet somehow, wanting the government out of the protecting dealerships racket, and letting the free market determine price, and not dictating where and from who I can buy a new car is anti-capitalist and communist. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:12:14 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about we do away with state laws preventing manufacturer direct sales and let the free market decide with government involvement. 1) Manufacturers have tried that and failed miserably. They don't want to be retailers. 2) Manufacturer shareholders don't want to retail. Net to sales of a typical dealership has historically been 3% while investments in facilities is extremely high. It's risky and kills stock prices. 3) How do you renumerate dealers for multimillion dollar investments made at the behest of those manufacturers? |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:16:14 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Waynehead05 I didn't claim zero of anything You stated there are "plenty of dealerships" I asked you to name an extremely meager 5 dealerships out of thousands. I frankly don't give a shit about your tiny small down dealers that will be out of allocations instantaneously and will lie to you about realistic lead times, either knowingly or unknowingly, that your order will take 6 months to 2 years to come in. While in the meantime we're selling more units in a month than they do in a year and we're doing it with market adjustments. Perhaps I asked for the names of the dealers so we can purchase them when they shutter their doors Lol. I see plenty of car salesmen go crap on these dealers’ posts every single time saying the exact same thing you are. For years. The owner of Granger actually posted and clearly addressed it. He believes Ford is pushing towards customers making custom retail orders as opposed to purchasing off the lot, and that he is jumping on board that bandwagon. But I’m sure they’ll go out of business very soon. After all, companies that strive to push large volume with smaller profit margins surely couldn’t push out all the folks selling smaller quantities at higher margins. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:16:43 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again- This is not free market capitalism. This is legally protected government intervention stifling the free market. I’m perfectly willing to compete with what dealers are paying a manufacturer. GD can decide to buy their size 46 waist 5.11 pants from amazing, another company, at a store, or direct from 5.11. There are no state laws forbidding 5.11 from selling direct to us, other companies buying from 5.11 and selling to us, limiting my options to buying only from retail 5.11 franchises who have decided to sell for over MSRP. Yet somehow, wanting the government out of the protecting dealerships racket, and letting the free market determine price, and not dictating where and from who I can buy a new car is anti-capitalist and communist. So you think if you want to buy say, an F150 in dallas, you'll get a better deal from the manufacturer owning every Ford dealership than you would from 15 individually owned stores competing with each other for your business? |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:18:20 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Waynehead05 I didn't claim zero of anything You stated there are "plenty of dealerships" I asked you to name an extremely meager 5 dealerships out of thousands. I frankly don't give a shit about your tiny small down dealers that will be out of allocations instantaneously and will lie to you about realistic lead times, either knowingly or unknowingly, that your order will take 6 months to 2 years to come in. While in the meantime we're selling more units in a month than they do in a year and we're doing it with market adjustments. Perhaps I asked for the names of the dealers so we can purchase them when they shutter their doors I also have to address your vitriol in accusing these dealerships of lying. As I sit in my brand new F250 Limited that came in on the exact timeline my dealer told me. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:21:12 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another case that is not price gouging. No one is entitled to ice. Most of the world lives without refrigeration. If a person chooses to buy food that is easily perishable no one is obligated to sell them ice if the power goes out. A person can live on food that does not require refrigeration. We are not entitled to something just because we have chosen to put ourselves into that situation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But ask $5.00 for a bag of ice after a hurricane and then you go to prison. Another case that is not price gouging. No one is entitled to ice. Most of the world lives without refrigeration. If a person chooses to buy food that is easily perishable no one is obligated to sell them ice if the power goes out. A person can live on food that does not require refrigeration. We are not entitled to something just because we have chosen to put ourselves into that situation. More to the point, charging a premium for ice after a hurricane encourages people to by only the minimum they need. The alternative is rationing, which requires someone with limited knowledge to make assumptions about how much each customer needs. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:22:34 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's neckbearding in the car business right now. I didn't want to sell new vehicles over msrp. Then the neckbeards started buying our highest demand vehicles and selling them to Carmax, Carvana, etc. In other words, you thought you knew better than the market, and you were wrong. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:23:31 PM EST
[#32]
If a dealer normally sells 20 vehicles in a period of time, and now only has one or two cars for the same period, what is he supposed to do? Supply and demand always work, we just do not like the results sometimes. For me, I just don't need a new vehicle and can wait. If you are business man that needs a new truck, you have to decide if it is worth it. If you are rolling in dough, what do you care?
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:26:47 PM EST
[#33]
It's all a game, and how you look at it
I purchased a new 2019 Corvette C7 for $45K in April of 2020. Sold it in May of 2021 for $59K. Purchased a Lexus IS350 for $45k in May of 2021, sold it for $48k a few weeks back. I then purchased a 2022 Z4 for MSRP($56K). While paying MSRP sucks, I also got way more than I should have on my trades |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:27:33 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In other words, you thought you knew better than the market, and you were wrong. No I was trying to protect my business, in the long term, from the impression that I was trying to take advantage of the situation.... Just like the impression many on here have. The dealers that do charge over market price will destroy their business both from a customer standpoint and an invetory standpoint. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:28:42 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In this thread- We will find that people say you are not in favor of the “free market” and that think you are a “communist” if you do not support a political/legal government imposed system that forces a producer to put its product into a system, and forces a consumer to buy that product from that system, To the sole benefit of the proprietors of that system and the government. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I’m not being a communist. Not a single fucktard at the dealership designed, improved, assembled, built, tested, certified, etc. those vehicles. Part of the cost of a vehicle is its delivery and preparation requirements. You are not entitled to any product let alone a new vehicle. Buy used or make do. They have a legal and political stranglehold on the cars coming out of the car companies factories. Yes, they do. But please show me any product out there that isn't wrapped up in federal/State requirements and crony capitalist protectionism. That's the reality of it all. Even so, you aren't entitled to buy a vehicle from a dealership. Not a single dime of what the dealership makes flings into more HP, a sweeter sport foe the peak of the torque curve, better brakes, better mpg, better transmission, etc. Dealerships provide goods and services pertaining to what they sell. They don't have to sell and you do not have to buy. I’ll be happy to pay the factory exactly what they charge the dealer for a car I order. And I'm sure you would be willing to sell your home at what you owe on it and not what the market will bear. It would be greedy for you to make more than 5% on the sale of your home, right? Or would you sell your home at the highest price you are offered and laugh all the way to the bank? I’ll be happy to pay the factory a non - discount price due to demand, shortage, increased costs on their part, etc. In this thread- We will find that people say you are not in favor of the “free market” and that think you are a “communist” if you do not support a political/legal government imposed system that forces a producer to put its product into a system, and forces a consumer to buy that product from that system, To the sole benefit of the proprietors of that system and the government. There are two separate arguments in this thread and some folks are conflating the two. Morality of market pricing and government protection of the dealer distribution model for cars. I don’t see anyone arguing in favor of the latter. But eliminating dealers won’t solve the pricing issue. If the manufacturers didn’t adjust their prices to reflect demand, the neckbeards would step in and do it for them. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:35:41 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol. I see plenty of car salesmen go crap on these dealers’ posts every single time saying the exact same thing you are. For years. The owner of Granger actually posted and clearly addressed it. He believes Ford is pushing towards customers making custom retail orders as opposed to purchasing off the lot, and that he is jumping on board that bandwagon. But I’m sure they’ll go out of business very soon. After all, companies that strive to push large volume with smaller profit margins surely couldn’t push out all the folks selling smaller quantities at higher margins. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Waynehead05 I didn't claim zero of anything You stated there are "plenty of dealerships" I asked you to name an extremely meager 5 dealerships out of thousands. I frankly don't give a shit about your tiny small down dealers that will be out of allocations instantaneously and will lie to you about realistic lead times, either knowingly or unknowingly, that your order will take 6 months to 2 years to come in. While in the meantime we're selling more units in a month than they do in a year and we're doing it with market adjustments. Perhaps I asked for the names of the dealers so we can purchase them when they shutter their doors Lol. I see plenty of car salesmen go crap on these dealers’ posts every single time saying the exact same thing you are. For years. The owner of Granger actually posted and clearly addressed it. He believes Ford is pushing towards customers making custom retail orders as opposed to purchasing off the lot, and that he is jumping on board that bandwagon. But I’m sure they’ll go out of business very soon. After all, companies that strive to push large volume with smaller profit margins surely couldn’t push out all the folks selling smaller quantities at higher margins. You said plenty of dealers, which would imply that you single handedly knew of 200-300 dealers across the country selling at, or below, invoice. So far in this thread you have struggled to provide 1. What you continue to fail to understand is that, not only do we, and many many many other dealers, do more volume than Granger, we do it at maximum profit. You do not understand the auto market and likely never will. Please stop charading as if you do. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:37:17 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I also have to address your vitriol in accusing these dealerships of lying. As I sit in my brand new F250 Limited that came in on the exact timeline my dealer told me. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Waynehead05 I didn't claim zero of anything You stated there are "plenty of dealerships" I asked you to name an extremely meager 5 dealerships out of thousands. I frankly don't give a shit about your tiny small down dealers that will be out of allocations instantaneously and will lie to you about realistic lead times, either knowingly or unknowingly, that your order will take 6 months to 2 years to come in. While in the meantime we're selling more units in a month than they do in a year and we're doing it with market adjustments. Perhaps I asked for the names of the dealers so we can purchase them when they shutter their doors I also have to address your vitriol in accusing these dealerships of lying. As I sit in my brand new F250 Limited that came in on the exact timeline my dealer told me. You have already in this thread demonstrated a propensity to lying, I would not trust anything you post. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:37:59 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you think if you want to buy say, an F150 in dallas, you'll get a better deal from the manufacturer owning every Ford dealership than you would from 15 individually owned stores competing with each other for your business? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Again- This is not free market capitalism. This is legally protected government intervention stifling the free market. I’m perfectly willing to compete with what dealers are paying a manufacturer. GD can decide to buy their size 46 waist 5.11 pants from amazing, another company, at a store, or direct from 5.11. There are no state laws forbidding 5.11 from selling direct to us, other companies buying from 5.11 and selling to us, limiting my options to buying only from retail 5.11 franchises who have decided to sell for over MSRP. Yet somehow, wanting the government out of the protecting dealerships racket, and letting the free market determine price, and not dictating where and from who I can buy a new car is anti-capitalist and communist. So you think if you want to buy say, an F150 in dallas, you'll get a better deal from the manufacturer owning every Ford dealership than you would from 15 individually owned stores competing with each other for your business? So you think if you want to buy say, a Barrett M107A1 deployment kit in Dallas, you’ll get a better deal from the manufacturer/Grabagun/bud’s than you would from 15 individually owned stores competing with each other for you business? So you think if you want to buy say, a 187” UHD 8000k TV in Dallas, you’ll get a better deal from the manufacturer or other company than you would from 15 or so individually owned stores the government has dictated are your only options to buy from? |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:38:52 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76203/9C8B196E-2C00-440B-AD22-A53067C6CFDB_jpe-2250297.JPG I don’t think this truck cost that much when it was new. I’m sure they will get someone to buy it. Here’s one local to me. Only 72k miles but that’s probably about the limit on the original 2.8l it has. Lowered and old school wheels are the only mods. Other than that it’s just super clean. 
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:41:28 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are literally state laws preventing that. Auto dealerships are literally a classic example of rent-seeking. The don’t build, improve, create, design, etc. the product There are laws in place protecting their stranglehold on the product. The dealer adjusted markups for straight to the dealer and no profits to those actually building the product. It’s one of the dirty aspects of capitalism. The world does not advance and nothing improves because of middle men. Laws going into place that prevented direct sales in any state where there was a franchise was a grimy political, business deal to milk money out of the buyer. There could still be warranty and service franchises that also sold used. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So then go buy a Tesla and stop bitching. If Ford wants to sell through dealers that's their prerogative. There are literally state laws preventing that. Auto dealerships are literally a classic example of rent-seeking. The don’t build, improve, create, design, etc. the product There are laws in place protecting their stranglehold on the product. The dealer adjusted markups for straight to the dealer and no profits to those actually building the product. It’s one of the dirty aspects of capitalism. The world does not advance and nothing improves because of middle men. Laws going into place that prevented direct sales in any state where there was a franchise was a grimy political, business deal to milk money out of the buyer. There could still be warranty and service franchises that also sold used. I don't disagree with you. I'm against state laws that protect dealerships over direct sales models. But I'm also not against automakers CHOOSING to work through a dealer model. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:44:01 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you think if you want to buy say, a Barrett M107A1 deployment kit in Dallas, you’ll get a better deal from the manufacturer/Grabagun/bud’s than you would from 15 individually owned stores competing with each other for you business? So you think if you want to buy say, a 187” UHD 8000k TV in Dallas, you’ll get a better deal from the manufacturer or other company than you would from 15 or so individually owned stores the government has dictated are your only options to buy from? That's not an answer to my question and really makes little sense. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:46:19 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Manufacturers don't want to retail and they're not good at it. They require dealers to spend multimillions of dollars to build and operate facilities to do that for them. Franchise laws protect dealers from getting fucked by the manufacturer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There are literally state laws preventing that. Auto dealerships are literally a classic example of rent-seeking. The don’t build, improve, create, design, etc. the product There are laws in place protecting their stranglehold on the product. The dealer adjusted markups for straight to the dealer and no profits to those actually building the product. It’s one of the dirty aspects of capitalism. The world does not advance and nothing improves because of middle men. Laws going into place that prevented direct sales in any state where there was a franchise was a grimy political, business deal to milk money out of the buyer. There could still be warranty and service franchises that also sold used. Manufacturers don't want to retail and they're not good at it. They require dealers to spend multimillions of dollars to build and operate facilities to do that for them. Franchise laws protect dealers from getting fucked by the manufacturer. I see his point though. Some of those laws prevent a competitor like Tesla from bypassing the dealer model all together. That said, dealers spending multi-millions to build and operate dealerships should secure their investment by making long term contracts with the automakers they represent to prevent them getting fucked by the manufacturer NOT by having the state do it for them. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:48:18 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Middle of America - its MSRP still. Yeah, that's an other thing. I haven't spent much time browsing the market but I've got an F-150 coming in February at X-Plan pricing with no funky markups. I'm neither an employee nor a business partner of Ford. I guess they aren't doing the jacked up prices thing in my area I dunno. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 3:56:25 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see his point though. Some of those laws prevent a competitor like Tesla from bypassing the dealer model all together. That said, dealers spending multi-millions to build and operate dealerships should secure their investment by making long term contracts with the automakers they represent to prevent them getting fucked by the manufacturer NOT by having the state do it for them. I see no problem with Tesla selling direct as long as they are held to the same licensing requirements and regulations as franchised dealers are. They don't have an established dealer base that spent millions of dollars in facilities. The investments in dealerships are large enough that franchising laws are necessary to protect them from manufacturers. Dealer agreement are insufficient. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:12:19 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do have to ask, honest question: how does this work? How do you test drive a vehicle if there is not one or several to drive at a dealer? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not when you are required to use a third party to order the vehicle you want. It's 2022, you should be able to just call up a Ford rep, order what you want at the current MSRP plus delivery, and get on the list. Dealers in the middle can turn it into a skim fest and you have to call all over to see who is going to fuck you the least. I agree. I wish the dealer model would end. I do have to ask, honest question: how does this work? How do you test drive a vehicle if there is not one or several to drive at a dealer? How do you test fire a gun before ordering it? In most cases you don’t. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:16:46 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you test fire a gun before ordering it? In most cases you don’t. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not when you are required to use a third party to order the vehicle you want. It's 2022, you should be able to just call up a Ford rep, order what you want at the current MSRP plus delivery, and get on the list. Dealers in the middle can turn it into a skim fest and you have to call all over to see who is going to fuck you the least. I agree. I wish the dealer model would end. I do have to ask, honest question: how does this work? How do you test drive a vehicle if there is not one or several to drive at a dealer? How do you test fire a gun before ordering it? In most cases you don’t. A car is orders of magnitude more complex and more expensive than a gun. There’s more risk involved in buying it without testing it first. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:21:36 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If only the government would step in and control prices. What could go wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, dealerships are absolutely out of control. The best and quickest way to fix it: STOP BUYING. If they're really ticking you off, and you wanted to buy and would have at the msrp ... make it a point to go walk into the door and *tell them.* If only the government would step in and control prices. What could go wrong? Hey, it'd be a GREAT way to lower road usage and destruction, and it would assure that we (short term) would have far more gasoline on hand than we used ...
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:46:09 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have already in this thread demonstrated a propensity to lying, I would not trust anything you post. Money where your mouth is. Or just keep talking. Eta: to be clear, I’ve got no problem with you maximizing profits. But anyone that wants a super duty for invoice or below can order one. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:52:59 PM EST
[#49]
And in case anyone missed it, I absolutely posted a dealer taking orders for Super Duties at 2% under invoice.
@Your1Savior, maybe you can school everyone on the Ford Customer Order Verification Program, and how dealer allocation affects build priority of retail orders. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:59:11 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not an answer to my question and really makes little sense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So you think if you want to buy say, a Barrett M107A1 deployment kit in Dallas, you’ll get a better deal from the manufacturer/Grabagun/bud’s than you would from 15 individually owned stores competing with each other for you business? So you think if you want to buy say, a 187” UHD 8000k TV in Dallas, you’ll get a better deal from the manufacturer or other company than you would from 15 or so individually owned stores the government has dictated are your only options to buy from? That's not an answer to my question and really makes little sense. Virtually everyone I know IRL, and myself on several occasions, Have gotten way better deals on guns, high end electronics, expensive watches, etc. for 20 years or more because the government did not dictate I can only buy TVs at Best Buy, can’t buy direct for guns, can only go to an authorized, in state Omega dealer, etc. |
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