Do samurai swords do as much damage as Hollywood shows? - Page 6

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Posted: 4/5/2017 12:59:32 PM EST

[#1]

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Has the quality changed from say Pre WW2?

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DK-prof knows more than i about this, but i'd say that if anything, standards have gotten tougher since swordmaking is viewed by the japanese government as a culturally important institution. therefore smiths are heavily regulated specifically to keep the quality high. for example, a smith's production is limited to 2 katana-length (>2' blade) or 3 wakizashi-length (<2') per month--no more. an inexpensive nihonto 'off the rack' is going to run you several thousand dollars. to have something made by a journeyman smith is going to cost the better part of $10K. that's the low end. the high end is well into 6 figures, and i'm sure you could spend 7. what you get for those prices is an extraordinary level of attention to detail. because they aren't allowed to make a lot of swords, smiths are judged (and make money) based purely on quality.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:10:28 PM EST

[#2]

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nothing like the fury of the jilted weeaboo.

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lol--no. i started out in HEMA, and only got into JSA because it was more convenient for my school schedule than commuting to the local HEMA groups in DFW. i used to think pretty similarly to a lot of posters in here, but getting actual experience in JSA rather than speculating about it from the outside has caused me to re-think a lot of conclusions i has made. i just get tired of hearing the same bad arguments over and over again, from people who obviously have no experience and who are merely parroting whatever they've read on the web that supports their preconceived opinion. it's like airsoft kids arguing over which rifle is better.

after you hear enough of that, you start making assumptions about people, and it's easy to get cantankerous. then you realize that you are being a dick, and wind up having to apologize.

happens to me all the time.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:15:19 PM EST

[#3]

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Gendaito are not highly regarded.

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I understand they were using machine made blades quite a bit during WW2.

I read about a Japanese soldier in WW2 who was executing someone just about every day with his sword. His first didn't go well and he damaged the blade.

Gendaito are not highly regarded.

In part that depends on what you mean by Gendaito.

There are basically three "tiers" of Showa/Modern swords.

1) machine made blades from WW2, issued to NCOs. These are complete garbage.
2) handmade - but not "traditionally" made (i.e. oil-quenched vs. water-quenched) blades from WW2. These vary in quality a lot, and were made by both highly trained smiths and lots of "apprentices"
3) properly traditionally made blades from both before, after and during WW2, made by highly trained smiths. These can be as valuable and desirable as older traditional blades.

Terminology can vary. Technically, all of the above are considered "gendaito" - but often 1 and 2 are called "gunto" and the traditionally made superior blades are called "gendaito"

Plus, it's also important to consider that just because a blade is traditionally made and from the 1500s (for example), that doesn't mean it's of super-high quality. During the Warring States period in Japan (Sengoku), there were some swordsmithing centers that cranked out a LOT of blades, practically mass-producing them. For instance, many Bishu Osafune Sukesada blades fall into this category.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:16:54 PM EST

[#4]

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DK-prof knows more than i about this, but i'd say that if anything, standards have gotten tougher since swordmaking is viewed by the japanese government as a culturally important institution. therefore smiths are heavily regulated specifically to keep the quality high. for example, a smith's production is limited to 2 katana-length (>2' blade) or 3 wakizashi-length (<2') per month--no more. an inexpensive nihonto 'off the rack' is going to run you several thousand dollars. to have something made by a journeyman smith is going to cost the better part of $10K. that's the low end. the high end is well into 6 figures, and i'm sure you could spend 7. what you get for those prices is an extraordinary level of attention to detail. because they aren't allowed to make a lot of swords, smiths are judged (and make money) based purely on quality.

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I don't know if that's as "cultural" as it is protectionist. Like Hitachi refusing to sell paper steel in any great quantity to US buyers.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:18:52 PM EST

[#5]

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In part that depends on what you mean by Gendaito.

There are basically three "tiers" of Showa/Modern swords.

1) machine made blades from WW2, issued to NCOs. These are complete garbage.
2) handmade - but not "traditionally" made (i.e. oil-quenched vs. water-quenched) blades from WW2. These vary in quality a lot, and were made by both highly trained smiths and lots of "apprentices"
3) properly traditionally made blades from both before, after and during WW2, made by highly trained smiths. These can be as valuable and desirable as older traditional blades.

Terminology can vary. Technically, all of the above are considered "gendaito" - but often 1 and 2 are called "gunto" and the traditionally made superior blades are called "gendaito"

Plus, it's also important to consider that just because a blade is traditionally made and from the 1500s (for example), that doesn't mean it's of super-high quality. During the Warring States period in Japan (Sengoku), there were some swordsmithing centers that cranked out a LOT of blades, practically mass-producing them. For instance, many Bishu Osafune Sukesada blades fall into this category.

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By (1) I'm assuming you mean those machine made blades in particular, and not that a machine made blade would necessarily be inferior to (3) because it was machine made?

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:20:51 PM EST

[#6]

Forged in Fire needs to do one of these.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:21:12 PM EST

[#7]

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In part that depends on what you mean by Gendaito.

There are basically three "tiers" of Showa/Modern swords.

1) machine made blades from WW2, issued to NCOs. These are complete garbage.
2) handmade - but not "traditionally" made (i.e. oil-quenched vs. water-quenched) blades from WW2. These vary in quality a lot, and were made by both highly trained smiths and lots of "apprentices"
3) properly traditionally made blades from both before, after and during WW2, made by highly trained smiths. These can be as valuable and desirable as older traditional blades.

Terminology can vary. Technically, all of the above are considered "gendaito" - but often 1 and 2 are called "gunto" and the traditionally made superior blades are called "gendaito"

Plus, it's also important to consider that just because a blade is traditionally made and from the 1500s (for example), that doesn't mean it's of super-high quality. During the Warring States period in Japan (Sengoku), there were some swordsmithing centers that cranked out a LOT of blades, practically mass-producing them. For instance, many Bishu Osafune Sukesada blades fall into this category.

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Not just during the Sengoku period but immediately after it as mass production had been the focus for a while and some of the finer points neglected.

The next sword I buy will be a Koto sword from before 1550.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:21:40 PM EST

[#8]

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By (1) I'm assuming you mean those machine made blades in particular, and not that a machine made blade would necessarily be inferior to (3) because it was machine made?

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Quoted:

In part that depends on what you mean by Gendaito.

There are basically three "tiers" of Showa/Modern swords.

1) machine made blades from WW2, issued to NCOs. These are complete garbage.
2) handmade - but not "traditionally" made (i.e. oil-quenched vs. water-quenched) blades from WW2. These vary in quality a lot, and were made by both highly trained smiths and lots of "apprentices"
3) properly traditionally made blades from both before, after and during WW2, made by highly trained smiths. These can be as valuable and desirable as older traditional blades.

Terminology can vary. Technically, all of the above are considered "gendaito" - but often 1 and 2 are called "gunto" and the traditionally made superior blades are called "gendaito"

Plus, it's also important to consider that just because a blade is traditionally made and from the 1500s (for example), that doesn't mean it's of super-high quality. During the Warring States period in Japan (Sengoku), there were some swordsmithing centers that cranked out a LOT of blades, practically mass-producing them. For instance, many Bishu Osafune Sukesada blades fall into this category.

By (1) I'm assuming you mean those machine made blades in particular, and not that a machine made blade would necessarily be inferior to (3) because it was machine made?

Definitely.

Modern materials and manufacturing techniques can obviously crank out things that are vastly superior to any traditionally hand-forged Japanese blade.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:22:35 PM EST

[#9]

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Forged in Fire needs to do one of these.

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You mean like on Episode 1?

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:23:38 PM EST

[#10]

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Definitely.

Modern materials and manufacturing techniques can obviously crank out things that are vastly superior to any traditionally hand-forged Japanese blade.

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Just checking

I'm both relieved and disappointed

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:24:03 PM EST

[#11]

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Not just during the Sengoku period but immediately after it as mass production had been the focus for a while and some of the finer points neglected.

The next sword I buy will be a Koto sword from before 1550.

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Agreed. I think that some of my favorite Japanese swords are from the mid 1600s. Without the urgency of war, really nice blades could be made with great attention to quality. Aesthetically, I do prefer a bit more curve than the Kanbun shape, though.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:24:38 PM EST

[#12]

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You mean like on Episode 1?

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Forged in Fire needs to do one of these.

You mean like on Episode 1?

@#$! you mean I missed it?

How did it go?

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:25:39 PM EST

[#13]

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@#$! you mean I missed it?

How did it go?

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Episode 1, Season 1. Watch it on history.com.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:27:19 PM EST

[#14]

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Episode 1, Season 1. Watch it on history.com.

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will do!

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:29:45 PM EST

[#15]

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I don't know if that's as "cultural" as it is protectionist. Like Hitachi refusing to sell paper steel in any great quantity to US buyers.

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it's cultural. the japanese government is exceedingly serious about sword stuff, because they view it as part of their national heritage and identity. i can't think of an american analogue--maybe the bald eagle.

anyone can make a japanese-style sword, so there's nothing to protect but reputation. you protect reputation with exceedingly stringent standards of quality.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:30:52 PM EST

[#16]

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I read the whole thread but skimmed some.

Anyone claiming a traditionally made Japanese sword is superior to a sword of the same profile made with modern steel? I love those guys.

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It would depend, mostly on the modern steel. Many modern 440 "katanas".

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:36:55 PM EST

[#17]

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I don't know if that's as "cultural" as it is protectionist. Like Hitachi refusing to sell paper steel in any great quantity to US buyers.

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Part of the super high value comes from a symptom of their culture.

They place as much or more importance on the mystique of process as they do the final product.

I've seen it in my trade, too. "I took that inch of stock off .020" at a time so as to not impart any stress blah blah blah". (Not to name names, but he makes super powerful, large caliber air rifles)

What I've seen of Jap sword making (and other craftsmanship) they go through great (and totally unnecessary) processes that have no bearing on the actual final product. Watching them stone a blade down was painful.

Watch that sushi chef documentary and you'll see the same thing. "The knife this chef is cutting this tuna with was fashioned from a 12th century sword's steel forged on an anvil supported by a piece of jade from the Ming dynasty and finished with the pumice excavated from the Pompei eruption" and so on. A Farberware knife would do the same thing.

OTOH, I appreciate the likes of Brad Emig hand forging and hand finishing a flintlock long rifle the way they did 200 years ago, so there's that

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:39:15 PM EST

[#18]

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It would depend, mostly on the modern steel. Many modern 440 "katanas".

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I understand what you're getting at, but even a properly made 440C Katana would exceed any objective performance measure. So not a Pakistan sword show special. All geometry being equal. 440 has a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:41:27 PM EST

[#19]

NSFW...

http://knowledgeglue.com/man-uses-katana-stop-home-invasion-gory-aftermath-nsfw/

ouchie

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:46:22 PM EST

[#20]

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Part of the super high value comes from a symptom of their culture.

They place as much or more importance on the mystique of process as they do the final product.

I've seen it in my trade, too. "I took that inch of stock off .020" at a time so as to not impart any stress blah blah blah". (Not to name names, but he makes super powerful, large caliber air rifles)

What I've seen of Jap sword making (and other craftsmanship) they go through great (and totally unnecessary) processes that have no bearing on the actual final product. Watching them stone a blade down was painful.

Watch that sushi chef documentary and you'll see the same thing. "The knife this chef is cutting this tuna with was fashioned from a 12th century sword's steel forged on an anvil supported by a piece of jade from the Ming dynasty and finished with the pumice excavated from the Pompei eruption" and so on. A Farberware knife would do the same thing.

OTOH, I appreciate the likes of Brad Emig hand forging and hand finishing a flintlock long rifle the way they did 200 years ago, so there's that

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^^

"removing material by machining changes the microstructure of the base material" No, machining aggressively without proper consideration of work temperature can though.
"cutting opens pores in the metal, polishing closes them" No, but the burnishing action of color type polishes can make it seem that way.

Yeah. You can do it to keep the tradition alive and I have nothing but respect for it. You can do it as a snake oil salesman and I have no respect for it.

I will admit earlier in my career falling prey to the idea that the method of material removal can induce stress because observation lead me to that conclusion. Critically thinking about the problem one realizes you can only relieve internal stress, and the method may cause it to be relieved unevenly.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:53:55 PM EST

[#21]

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true, but then again no one who actually knows anything thinks that. it's the euro fanboys and HEMA guys who are constantly triggered by katana talk from people who obviously don't know anything about swords. with a little more experience and confidence, they would just laugh. instead, they post long diatribes "debunking" stuff that isn't worthy of any attention. i used to be one of those guys. then i started practicing. it's amazing how fast actual work will change someone's opinions. for the most part, serious HEMA and JSA guys really respect one another. as usual, it's the kiddies and wannabes who constantly yammer about ~~delta vs SEALS~~ ~~kinght vs samurai~~ longsword vs katana.

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Not just respect, but recognize nuance.

it seems, and I've practice very little kendo, "cutting" is a huge complement of the Japanese sword arts, while in HEMA it's in a back room if present at all. It also seems much of the European styles favor an attacking cut that incorporates defense, while the Japanases style seems more purely offensive to me (this is potentially ignorant). This distinction can be seen between European styles even.

Both good, but different.

Posted: 4/5/2017 1:57:36 PM EST

[#22]

Then there are other old Japanese weapons. Throwing stars don't kill people either like in Shogun and ninja movies. They bounce off leaving a small puncture wound and an angry target who is now closer to the star than you. Also, if you hit someone with Okinawan nunchucks, it'll make them really mad.

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:00:18 PM EST

[#23]

The Samurai had methods of slicing bodies. Downward diagonal cuts, and upward diagional cuts are some

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:01:34 PM EST

[#24]

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Throwing stars don't kill people either like in Shogun and ninja movies. They bounce off leaving a small puncture wound and an angry target who is now closer to the star than you.

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For which, in their fit of rage, they throw it right back at you

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:11:18 PM EST

[#25]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

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This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:24:53 PM EST

[#26]

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This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

who the fuck was that? a young John Belushi?

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:29:48 PM EST

[#27]

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This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

Ouch. Right in the feels.

At the risk of more mocking, I'm somewhere in this picture.

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:30:55 PM EST

[#28]

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who the fuck was that? a young John Belushi?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

who the fuck was that? a young John Belushi?

The comments says "Jason Bourne"

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:39:54 PM EST

[#29]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

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I bet he has a AK

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:57:06 PM EST

[#30]

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This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

I resent that. I just make the things for these crazy people

Posted: 4/5/2017 2:58:17 PM EST

[#31]

I need a bottom line: what sword for the Zombie apocalypse? Cavalry saber?

Posted: 4/5/2017 5:20:17 PM EST

[#32]

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I need a bottom line: what sword for the Zombie apocalypse? Cavalry saber?

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A European halberd, and a Japanese wakizashi for emergencies.

Posted: 4/5/2017 5:22:10 PM EST

[#33]

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A European halberd, and a Japanese wakizashi for emergencies.

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I need a bottom line: what sword for the Zombie apocalypse? Cavalry saber?

A European halberd, and a Japanese wakizashi for emergencies.

Honestly, a ko katana would be more useful than a wakizashi in my opinion.

Posted: 4/5/2017 5:30:39 PM EST

[#34]

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The comments says "Jason Bourne"

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk

This is how I imagine everyone in this thread.

who the fuck was that? a young John Belushi?

The comments says "Jason Bourne"

damn he's let himself go.

Posted: 4/5/2017 6:14:36 PM EST

[#35]

For pure artistic forging, nothing can come close to a traditionally made katana. The top,smiths have had nearly 1000 years of practice learning and practicing techniques that get passed to the next generation.

For true cutting power on various mediums, modern steel production and heat treat methods turn out a better sword. Modern manufacturing has also had a very long time to learn about various alloys, laminating, or mono steel construction, and edge geometry. By combining all those years (centuries) of knowledge, exceptionally tough, and strong blades that hold an excellent edge can now be produced. Much of the knowledge about alloys, modern steel production and heat treat methods was not available 150-200 years ago.

Posted: 4/5/2017 6:44:18 PM EST

[#36]

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Bullshit.

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This

Posted: 4/5/2017 7:38:14 PM EST

[#37]

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A European halberd, and a Japanese wakizashi for emergencies.

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Where does one purchase a halberd? I have a Cold Steel boar spear that I have actually killed a pig with. The results were impressive. I also have been considering buying a bush axe. Is there a source for an actual halberd?

Also, what Wakizashi?

Posted: 4/6/2017 8:22:49 AM EST

[#38]

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Where does one purchase a halberd? I have a Cold Steel boar spear that I have actually killed a pig with. The results were impressive. I also have been considering buying a bush axe. Is there a source for an actual halberd?

Also, what Wakizashi?

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I'd make you a Halberd.

Posted: 4/6/2017 9:46:16 AM EST

[#39]

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I'd make you a Halberd.

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Details?

Posted: 4/6/2017 9:48:35 AM EST

[#40]

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Details?

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+1

Posted: 4/6/2017 11:22:53 AM EST

[#41]

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lol--no. i started out in HEMA, and only got into JSA because it was more convenient for my school schedule than commuting to the local HEMA groups in DFW.
<SNIP/>
it's like airsoft kids arguing over which rifle is better.

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nothing like the fury of the jilted weeaboo.

lol--no. i started out in HEMA, and only got into JSA because it was more convenient for my school schedule than commuting to the local HEMA groups in DFW.
<SNIP/>
it's like airsoft kids arguing over which rifle is better.

Was off with google to see if there was a HEMA school in DFW, read about a schism between ARMA and HEMA where they were saying you couldn't be a member of both with one of them having a ban on anyone that ever participated in SCA.

Hell, I thought that the Glock fanboiz were over touchy when they were told that picture threads of stock Glocks were stupid or the chili with/without beans brouhaha/hubbub in GD seem sane.

Posted: 4/6/2017 11:25:29 AM EST

[#42]

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Was off with google to see if there was a HEMA school in DFW, read about a schism between ARMA and HEMA where they were saying you couldn't be a member of both with one of them having a ban on anyone that ever participated in SCA.

Hell, I thought that the Glock fanboiz were over touchy when they were told that picture threads of stock Glocks were stupid or the chili with/without beans brouhaha/hubbub in GD seem sane.

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Sword people are weird. Particularly true of katana fanbois but not limited to them.

Posted: 4/6/2017 11:47:06 AM EST

[#43]

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Don't forget that firearms were banned in Japan, so sword development continued there long after European nations had stopped.

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What?

Japan used tons of guns after the Dutch introduced them. (Besides, guns, and all weapons, weren't so much banned as only-the-samurai-are-professional-enough)
And Western militaries were developing swords up into WW1*.

For example, this mass-produced sword: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1860_Light_Cavalry_Saber
Is a better weapon than 95%+ of all Japanese blades ever made. It's lighter, longer, stronger, and offers more hand protection.

* Note Japan technically fought in WW1, but they basically just saw opportunity and claimed any land in the Pacific that wasn't bolted down too tight.

Posted: 4/6/2017 12:34:29 PM EST

[#44]

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What?

Japan used tons of guns after the Dutch introduced them. (Besides, guns, and all weapons, weren't so much banned as only-the-samurai-are-professional-enough)
And Western militaries were developing swords up into WW1*.

For example, this mass-produced sword: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1860_Light_Cavalry_Saber
Is a better weapon than 95%+ of all Japanese blades ever made. It's lighter, longer, stronger, and offers more hand protection.

* Note Japan technically fought in WW1, but they basically just saw opportunity and claimed any land in the Pacific that wasn't bolted down too tight.

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One thing I wish is if someone would do SEM determination of the alloy content on preserved historical blades like that. Maybe someone has.

Posted: 4/6/2017 1:58:46 PM EST

[#45]

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Was off with google to see if there was a HEMA school in DFW, read about a schism between ARMA and HEMA where they were saying you couldn't be a member of both with one of them having a ban on anyone that ever participated in SCA.

Hell, I thought that the Glock fanboiz were over touchy when they were told that picture threads of stock Glocks were stupid or the chili with/without beans brouhaha/hubbub in GD seem sane.

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there might be some acronym confusion going on. HEMA is a generic name that normally stands for historical euro martial arts as a whole (some people use WMA instead). ARMA and SCA are specific groups or clubs that practice HEMA/WMA.

Posted: 4/6/2017 2:12:28 PM EST

[#46]

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One thing I wish is if someone would do SEM determination of the alloy content on preserved historical blades like that. Maybe someone has.

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SEM like Scanning Electron Microscope with Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy, or is there a different technique with the same acronym? You'll be hard pressed to find a SEM with a big enough chamber to fit a sword, and I doubt anybody wants to chip a cross-section off of a historical sword.

Maybe one of those hand held X-ray fluorescence machines?

Posted: 4/6/2017 2:20:38 PM EST

[#47]

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For example, this mass-produced sword: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1860_Light_Cavalry_Saber
Is a better weapon than 95%+ of all Japanese blades ever made. It's lighter, longer, stronger, and offers more hand protection.

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again, one has to be careful with blanket terms like 'better'. per quant done by an instructor i know who did his PhD on the physical parameters of nihonto, that saber is almost exactly the same weight (listed at 1000mg in the wiki) as a statistically average historical katana (1060mg). since it is longer (more distal mass), and can only be employed with a single hand, it will be substantially less agile and less powerful. that's less of a problem for a mounted swordsman, but it makes a difference if both contestants are afoot. OTOH, the blade length (combined with the single-handed stance) gives a considerable reach advantage. in the end, it's a heavily curved, single hand, cavalry sword optimized to strike down from a mount, much more like the tachi (which it closely resembles) than the katana. would the saber's reach advantage outweight the katana's agility and power advantage? i suspect it would defend on the guys driving them.

Posted: 4/6/2017 2:21:47 PM EST

[#48]

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SEM like Scanning Electron Microscope with Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy, or is there a different technique with the same acronym? You'll be hard pressed to find a SEM with a big enough chamber to fit a sword, and I doubt anybody wants to chip a cross-section off of a historical sword.

Maybe one of those hand held X-ray fluorescence machines?

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Yes, that's what I meant. It's the only method I know of for analyzing chemical makeup that's nondestructive. I didn't consider a chamber constraint because I don't actually know shit about them

Posted: 4/6/2017 2:33:07 PM EST

[#49]

I think the Katana is a fine weapon but it has been blown up by Hollywood as something with mystical powers.

European sword were just as good

Posted: 4/6/2017 2:42:03 PM EST

[#50]

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Ouch. Right in the feels.

At the risk of more mocking, I'm somewhere in this picture.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/2490.JPG

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Snort.

Leave it to an Econ prof to have to pay to get beaten senseless by strangers with sticks.

I can do that for FREE!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do samurai swords do as much damage as Hollywood shows? (Page 6 of 7)

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