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you have to start with something living at some point. so please enlighten me. you do understand that abiogensis means life from non-life, correct? that means that at some point in earth's history there was nothing living, and at some point later the first life form / simple cell, something was formed? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Abiogenesis is a pretty far fetched theory that is required for a belief in molecules to man (macroevolution) Microevolution= variation in species over time. a.k.a. different breeds of dogs. This is science fact. It occurs, it's observable, it's ever reproducible in a lab Macroevolution= the belief that entirely new reproductive isolated species are spontaneously formed through unknown and unobservable environmental conditions and an ever lengthening period of time. this has never been observed, is not science in that it is not testable, observable repeatable. There is an thin argument to be made that such transitional forms exist in the fossil record, but that's a hotly debated issue even among paleontologists and even if they are proven to be transitional forms, there are very few examples. |
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Whenever this topic comes up moderate theists retreat to deism, and somehow they don't seem to realize that's what they're doing.
Science doesn't challenge God, it challenges dogma. Dogma and science are antithetical. The real conflict between evolution and Christianity isn't how long God's day is, it's everything that comes after. If error, suffering, and death (selection for fitness) are the very means of God's creation, what need does he have for Satan? A fall? The problem of evil is something we created out of ignorance. The entire Biblical argument is built on a fallen world. Theism isn't really the belief in God. You can believe in God without being a theist. Theism is the belief in revelation. It's only your faith in claims of revelation that's at stake. We made God in our bronze-age image because that's the best our ignorant monkey brain could come up with. Trusting the words of men over the evidence of creation itself is idolatry, words are no different than images. Deism and pure naturalism aren't really in any conflict, it's just a matter of how we choose to conceive of the hard unknowns beyond our information horizon. Whatever choice we make there is going to be wrong anyway. |
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God created the heavens and the earth and sprinkled it with life. To God's horror man evolved and fucked up his creation.
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Absolutely. There has been no credible evidence that refutes it.
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Evolution is not a sound theory. Even Charles Darwin said so himself. Even Charles Darwin thought his own theory was "grievously hypothetical" and gave emotional content to his doubts when he said, "The eye to this day gives me a cold shudder." To think the eye had evolved by natural selection, Darwin said, "seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." But he thought of the same about something as simple as a peacock's feather, which, he said, "makes me sick. " Of course, anyone who has knowledge of the intricacies of the human eye and other living structures immediately realizes the problem Darwin sensed. How could an organ of such an intricate magnificence ever have a originated via random chance? Oller and Omdahl (CH) Page 274 It's like saying you could grab a box of parts to build a TV, or a car, or an airplane, and throw them into a tornado or hurricane, and then when the hurricane is over, all the parts have magically assembled themselves. We live as designed and created people. If I could get a box of AR parts together, put them on a blue angel's jet, and let the pilot do all the aerial acrobatics he wanted, and when he landed, a complete rifle was made, would you say that's possible? View Quote You should spend at least a few minutes finding out what the theory of evolution actually says. A simple google search will result in a large number of explanations as to why the tornado analogy is fallacious. Here is one of the better resources IMO. If you don't want to take the time to read the entire article, here are the high points: "Evolution is not 'random chance' like a lottery or throwing the dice. The variation on which natural selection works (mutations, recombination, etc.) is randomly produced, but natural selection is not random. Natural selection is a process that weeds out unfavorable variations, and greatly improves the likelihood of events." "The fallacy assumes that evolution means producing something complex like an eye or a heart in just one step and is therefore too improbable. I would agree that this would seem too improbable if evolution actually implied this, but it does not. Evolution, the selection of random beneficial mutations over millions of years, works through innumerable intermediate steps between something simple and something complex." "As anyone who really understands probability knows, you can't make a probability argument after the fact. If you do so, then any complex sequence of events is extremely improbable, even though they actually occur." |
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I ain't no monkey, and my dog ain't no wolf. View Quote We see evolution daily with antibiotic resistance. Most of evolution was the development of metabolic pathways. Bacterial resistance is just a matter of one bacteria having a pathway that enables it to metabolize a given antibiotic. Penicillin resistant bacteria create an enzyme called beta-lactamase which cleaves the penicillin molecule rendering it ineffective. Some bacteria possess this enzyme and survive being exposed to penicillin, some don't and die from it. Reproductive success FTW. |
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Millions of years go by and no real advancement can be seen. We go, as a species, from that to the astounding complexity we live in today in 6 to 10000 years? Why is there no clearly defined lineage in the fossil record? And has been asked many times, how did the astounding complexity that we see today in the world we live in, come from absolute nothingness. The only planet that we know of that is completely self-sustaining came from nothing..... View Quote Attached File Attached File |
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Absolutely, totally, completely WRONG. Do consider that those people who saw things, heard things, told their stories, wrote them down, retold them, transcribed them, over and over and over over the ages, often were very, very uneducated by modern standards. People living in the dark ages 2000 years ago can not be counted upon to relay accurate information regarding encounters they had and events that occurred that required understanding of things that had not yet been discovered or taught to others. The biblical story of creation was written by people who could not even conceive of the concept of evolution and when you looked in their minds at the folders marked "science" and the sub-folders marked "archaeology", "genetics", "chemistry", "geology", and so on and so forth, those folders weren't just EMPTY, they weren't there at all. At the time it was written, nothing BUT something as fanciful as a creation story could have been written or accepted. For me to attempt to give you an in-depth education of how to fabricate microprocessors and embed microcode into the logic gates that are mask programmed into them during vapor phase ionic deposition would require you to have a very solid grounding in hardware coding and semiconductor fabrication at the very minimum. It'd go right over your head if I was even qualified to teach the course. For the bible to teach the truth of evolution, the audience would have to be educationally ready to accept the lesson. But we're talking about a bunch of people who thought the elements were air, earth, fire, and water and had no clue the world wasn't flat. You really think that people should believe stories written by sheepherders over 2000 years ago as literal truth when it comes to how our species came to be? Seriously? I do not ridicule your religion. Truly, I don't. But you must consider that scriptures are written from the limited understanding available to those who witnessed and wrote them. TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO. A time at which the average educational level of people in the world was....incalculably low by modern standards. They knew enough to survive. A few better educated ones could even count. But comprehend evolution? Hah! Not hardly! And how can you write about, and teach, something you don't understand and in fact can't even conceive of? My version of god is much smarter and much more powerful than yours. He created the universe and it evolved just the way he wanted it to. THAT is called PLANNING and EXECUTION. You base your belief in creation on the evidence of ONE book. I base my belief in evolution on evidence that is sufficient to fill a large library without any duplicated information. One of those is a much more sensible position than the other. One has abundant evidence. The other is a book of stories with morality lessons that I generally approve of despite its low technical writing level. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This is an argument i’ve been involved in before and have no desire to get involved in again on here, but one thing I have to point out, you cannot as a Christian who believes in the Bible believe in anything other than biblical creation. Do consider that those people who saw things, heard things, told their stories, wrote them down, retold them, transcribed them, over and over and over over the ages, often were very, very uneducated by modern standards. People living in the dark ages 2000 years ago can not be counted upon to relay accurate information regarding encounters they had and events that occurred that required understanding of things that had not yet been discovered or taught to others. The biblical story of creation was written by people who could not even conceive of the concept of evolution and when you looked in their minds at the folders marked "science" and the sub-folders marked "archaeology", "genetics", "chemistry", "geology", and so on and so forth, those folders weren't just EMPTY, they weren't there at all. At the time it was written, nothing BUT something as fanciful as a creation story could have been written or accepted. For me to attempt to give you an in-depth education of how to fabricate microprocessors and embed microcode into the logic gates that are mask programmed into them during vapor phase ionic deposition would require you to have a very solid grounding in hardware coding and semiconductor fabrication at the very minimum. It'd go right over your head if I was even qualified to teach the course. For the bible to teach the truth of evolution, the audience would have to be educationally ready to accept the lesson. But we're talking about a bunch of people who thought the elements were air, earth, fire, and water and had no clue the world wasn't flat. You really think that people should believe stories written by sheepherders over 2000 years ago as literal truth when it comes to how our species came to be? Seriously? I do not ridicule your religion. Truly, I don't. But you must consider that scriptures are written from the limited understanding available to those who witnessed and wrote them. TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO. A time at which the average educational level of people in the world was....incalculably low by modern standards. They knew enough to survive. A few better educated ones could even count. But comprehend evolution? Hah! Not hardly! And how can you write about, and teach, something you don't understand and in fact can't even conceive of? My version of god is much smarter and much more powerful than yours. He created the universe and it evolved just the way he wanted it to. THAT is called PLANNING and EXECUTION. You base your belief in creation on the evidence of ONE book. I base my belief in evolution on evidence that is sufficient to fill a large library without any duplicated information. One of those is a much more sensible position than the other. One has abundant evidence. The other is a book of stories with morality lessons that I generally approve of despite its low technical writing level. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Not necessarily the KJV version, but the textus receptus is. It was written by the hand of men but all the words are the infallible words of God. I understand you don’t believe this, but I and many other Christians do, and as such must believe in biblical creationism because if the Bible is true evolution can not be as I described in my original post. I understand you dismiss it because you believe it was written by shepherds thousands of years ago, but if you can possibly believe in a god at all surely you could believe he could inspire his word. How did those shepherds know the earth was round when science taught the world was flat? How did those shepherds know the bottoms of the oceans were mountainous when science taught they were flat? How did those shepherds know the universe is constantly expanding thousands of years before science made that discovery? Good guesses? I think God inspired them to write it. The Bible is either ALL true, or it can all be made up. You can’t decide for yourself what you want to pick and choose what is correct. That takes away the authority of truth from God and gives it to you. I will trust my ONE book written by the only being in existence when everything was made over the best guesses and interpretations of modern man. I know you and most people here completely disagree with me and see me as simple minded and ignorant, and that’s fine, I’m a big boy and can take it. I’ve looked at all the available evidence and came to my conclusion, as have you. |
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neither has religion. However it (religion) has given our souls eternal life. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Apparently religion has given man the ability to dodge uncomfortable questions. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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What I think is as per the poll, 35% of the people responding believe in magic.
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It's the best supported theory right now. I subscribe to it.
LOL @ The poll doubles as a IQ test. |
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Quoted: What does evolution have to do with recent historical events? Why are they connected? I think Atheists are more likely to believe in those conspiracy theories. View Quote |
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It's mostly bickering about which of the main three these days.
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Not enough to put us on the same evolutionary path so for the purposes of this discussion the factor is zero.
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We actually share a LOT of DNA with reptiles. From what I remember in my college genetics class we share 99.9999% of our DNA with other humans, 99% with chimpanzees, 98% with other primates, at least 70% with most other animals (from ants to blue whales), and 50% with the current selectively bred variety of Dessert Bananas. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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DNA testing seems to bear it out. We share no DNA with reptiles yet we do share DNA with primates. We share less DNA with other mammals than we do with primates. I figured there would be some DNA overlap with the most coming from other primates. My comment should have been that for the purposes of this discussion we effectively have no evolutionary significant DNA with reptiles. We aren't likely to become cold blooded, nor are we likely to develop any other reptillian traits naturally. |
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I don't believe in people that don't believe in evolution. View Quote Mark my words, because this is the God's honest truth- as we discover more and more important stuff, fewer and fewer people will actually understand it, and still the masses will insist on having an opinion about it. You're staring right at it, right now. |
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Quoted: My comment should have been that for the purposes of this discussion we effectively have no evolutionary significant DNA with reptiles. We aren't likely to become cold blooded, nor are we likely to develop any other reptillian traits naturally. View Quote |
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No, the devil put the bones in the ground 6,000 years ago to trick people. It's so obvious.
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DNA testing seems to bear it out. We share no DNA with reptiles yet we do share DNA with primates. We share less DNA with other mammals than we do with primates. View Quote |
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I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Not necessarily the KJV version, but the textus receptus is. It was written by the hand of men but all the words are the infallible words of God. I understand you don’t believe this, but I and many other Christians do, and as such must believe in biblical creationism because if the Bible is true evolution can not be as I described in my original post. I know you and most people here completely disagree with me and see me as simple minded and ignorant, and that’s fine, I’m a big boy and can take it. I’ve looked at all the available evidence and came to my conclusion, as have you. View Quote |
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Not enough to put us on the same evolutionary path so for the purposes of this discussion the factor is zero. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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DNA testing seems to bear it out. We share no DNA with reptiles yet we do share DNA with primates. We share less DNA with other mammals than we do with primates. Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? |
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Lol.
Forgetting the subject matter for a moment, OP has unwittingly failed a true scientific litmus test by his opening statement. |
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Quoted: AR15s share more design characteristics with airplanes than they do with boats. Therefore, AR15s evolved over millions of years from an airplane. View Quote Ever heard of a paternity test? Ever hear of breeding? Genetic evidence is far different than saying "hey, these two things have the same features and are thus related". ETA::The theory of evolution was originally based on: 1) Comparative anatomy. 2) The known biology of heritability of traits. 3) The fossil record. 4) The distribution of animals around the world. These things made it a pretty good theory that explained a lot. So much so that there hasn't been a better competing theory since. Back then, I could see your argument of "well, it is all just a classification system, and we can classify anything that way." I don't agree with that argument, but I can see how people could have made it. Then along came DNA evidence, which is the smoking gun. There really is no doubt any more. Common ancestry of all known life on earth is as close to a proven fact as you get when it comes biological origins. |
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Yes I do. I also believe we have the ability to jack with it, much to our own peril.
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Evolution could be the result of random mutation over time, or the directed power of a higher being.
Natural Selection is the theory that defines the scientific explanation for evolution. |
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Ultimately, the theory of evolution and the assertion of creation both depend upon the answer to a single question: How did it begin? View Quote |
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Why can't there be both?
So we were created by a God and Evolution took over to adapt. Not sure why this is even in question. I guess the real question would be Big Bang or God. |
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There are things that don't add up with Darwinian evolution. Genetics have changed things, as compared to taxonomic classification. Still the theory of evolution, as we now understand it, doesn't quite add up. I have read "On the Origin of Species", and it reads like what it is, a lengthy treatise based on old observations and understandings. Certainly a coalescence of scientific thought to a complex issue, but much of it deals with the micro. Does micro transfer to macro? I don't know. But Darwinism says it does.
And the problem is, that the theory of evolution has become an unquestionable litmus test. If you say there are problems with evolution, you are an anti science, religious nut. I am not, but I think life, and changing life forms, is more deeply tied to some other (unknown)factor(s) than local biologic pressures. |
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Why can't there be both? So we were created by a God and Evolution took over to adapt. Not sure why this is even in question. I guess the real question would be Big Bang or God. View Quote I think what people really don't like is the thought that we're just another intermediate link in a long chain rather than the end point of it all. It's vanity really, along with dogma. I also think that's the wrong way to look at it. The triumph of humanity is that we've managed to create another layer of selection in culture, software over the hardware. The reason many of us find dogma so offensive is that it sabotages that process. |
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Quoted: Path relative to what? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? View Quote Maybe we had a common ancestor. Or maybe the DNA we do share is simply the base amount that would be necessary for an animal to live here. If you discount this common material that all animals share we have little in common with reptiles. Or maybe we evolved from reptiles. |
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I thought we were talking about evolution here. The paths of reptiles and humans have diverged so greatly that for all intents and purposes we are no longer related except that we are both animals and we both live on Earth. Maybe we had a common ancestor. Or maybe the DNA we do share is simply the base amount that would be necessary for an animal to live here. If you discount this common material that all animals share we have little in common with reptiles. Or maybe we evolved from reptiles. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Path relative to what? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Maybe we had a common ancestor. Or maybe the DNA we do share is simply the base amount that would be necessary for an animal to live here. If you discount this common material that all animals share we have little in common with reptiles. Or maybe we evolved from reptiles. |
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For those that don't understand what a scientific theory actually is.....and there are plenty of you.
"Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally—taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along." And as it stands now, there is no other explanation that challenges, in an informed and meaningful way, Darwin's findings and resulting Theory of Evolution. |
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