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Quoted: Alright, I’m in! I’m also off and bored… https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32167/4168E40F-4D0E-46EB-889E-51C6446ECB33-2398458.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I don't know why any of you reply to tc556guy. It's obvious he's trolling you, whether to get you locked or an outright ban.] I agree with Lug, you could teach the dumbest cop to use a K12 saw and he could get into a room easily. There are also some schools that you would be able to get through the wall using a vehicle. Just depends on the land layout. My wife's school has a set of ground level windows at an interior ramp between 1st & 2nd floors that are 20 ft tall. I confirmed today that anyone could drive right up to it and right through it and it would give you full access to any part of the building on foot. Alright, I’m in! I’m also off and bored… https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32167/4168E40F-4D0E-46EB-889E-51C6446ECB33-2398458.jpg Is that a Stihl chainsaw..!? I'm assuming FF, and not LE? One of the lines from page 1 stands out...we just don't have much trunk space anymore. I started my career with a Crown Vic, and you could easily fit a bike in the trunk, or a pair of dead hookers (three or four if they were little people). Now I'm driving a Tahoe or a Ford Interceptor SUV, and either way it's got a single tray storage box in the back. So basically a space about 8" tall, 36" wide, and maybe 20" deep to fit everything. Plus some loose space on top for extra stuff. Flares, AED, tire change kit, first aid kit, stop sticks, rifle, 40mm launcher, tow strap, dog catcher pole, big bag o paperwork, ballistic shield, spare set of hard plates, fingerprint kit, water bottles, chalk, roller wheel, jumper cables, spare ammo, fire extinguisher, rain jacket, traffic vest, crime scene tape, evidence bags and tubes, blanket, and half a dozen other items I'm forgetting. Pack all of that into a space barely larger than a suitcase, and now tell me you want to add a Halligan tool, breaching charges, and the fucking kitchen sink. Not just to my car, but to about 200,000 other patrol vehicles across the country. All because one time, in one place, a tactical breach and clear might have happened faster if rando Patrol guys had more kit in their car. Maybe. Knee-jerk reactions are idiotic. |
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Quoted: I don't know why any of you reply to tc556guy. It's obvious he's trolling you, whether to get you locked or an outright ban. I agree with Lug, you could teach the dumbest cop to use a K12 saw and he could get into a room easily. There are also some schools that you would be able to get through the wall using a vehicle. Just depends on the land layout. My wife's school has a set of ground level windows at an interior ramp between 1st & 2nd floors that are 20 ft tall. I confirmed today that anyone could drive right up to it and right through it and it would give you full access to any part of the building on foot. View Quote Trolling? Why are you saying that? I'm simply telling it the way it is. Lots of guys here saying that things woulda should coulda that just aren't realistic |
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Quoted: Here's a pic of the back side of the school from the main thread. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/20821/Aftermath_JPG-2398176.JPG You're telling me one of those SUV's couldnt hit a wall at 20mph and punch through the stuccoed CMU or brick exterior? Which part of that looks like a hardened facility with 12" thick concrete walls. View Quote Nope, I dont think so |
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Quoted: Gotta be honest, some of the other LEO responses here make me happy as hell that I worked in a well paid area, for folks who learned basic lessons decades ago. And at places where solutions were not always shouted down... Oh no- breaching tools cost money?! Big fucking deal- sledges are cheap. Halligans are very affordable. Bolt cutters are free with every 10th burglary arrest. (Seriously- we sourced a lot of breaching tools from old evidence items to be disposed of). I bought breaching equipment for patrol multiple times at the end of budget years when it was use it or lose it time. Oh no- how do you breach with shotguns? Too dangerous, need purpose made ammo, etc.... Not really- If you train your people up, they will know how to do it. And regular ammo can be used, though it is not as safe for others and may not be as effective. If that is all I have, and someone is shooting kids on the other side of the door, I will use what I have available. And training priorities are a thing, shotgun breaching is not super difficult. (Note- We did not train patrol on ballistic breaching, but at any given time there was usually 1-3 people available with designated breaching SBS 870’s from SWAT. And patrol did have other breaching tools as well). Shields cost money- yep. But not that much! Come on! Spend 1K and you will have a basic ballistic shield capable of stopping all handgun and most rifle rounds. Rifle shields used to be so heavy that we didn’t bother as they were not worth the weight, but with new armor technology (HDPE) the newer rifle rated shields are much lighter.... actually I just looked it up. A cheap Botach Battle Steel brand shield, 5.56 rated, is only $850. Come on.... Basically at roll call I would ensure that between 6-10 patrol folks we had, at minimum: 40mm Less Lethal Ballistic Shield Door Breach Key Sledge/Misc breaching tools like bolt cutters Night vision If any of this needed to come from the previous shift they handed them off to the incoming. But we had multiples of everything. So stuff was constantly coming in and out of patrol cars. Shields basically transferred cars all day long. Nearly everyone had a rifle if they had been there more than a year or so to be trained up on them. As I was SWAT, I had all the above in my car, plus a breaching 12 gauge, plus flash bangs, a gas bag full of CS and OC hand thrown and 40mm, etc etc etc. I handed off my shield and 40mm all the time on scenes. Lately they added helmets to the gear everyone on patrol has. I tried for years to get those, issued out old surplus stuff we had when I could, but it took recent events for them to get th idea to just buy everyone a helmet. Long before all this, SOP was that the patrol Sgts carried a 40mm, a shield, and a door key. This meant the gear arrived on scene, ready to be handed out. However it is a better policy to have more than enough gear for everyone and to have it carried by the Officer/Deputy level folks. I started in the mid-90’s as well. Things that were specialized SWAT items gradually became standard patrol items. Having stuff available for when it is actually needed is so much better than having it locked up in a tactical vehicle that you don’t have the keys for. That might fly if- a really big if- you have a full time, 24 hr SWAT team on duty. Not many of those around. I dealt with agencies that needed their eyes opened for patrol rifles and less lethal weapons. It took me 2 entire years of work to create a rifle program from zero. But my second program- LL, was an easy sell. And when I went to another agency and revamped their programs it was not too difficult to get the needed support. If your agency can’t afford to purchase basic stuff like sledge hammers, door keys, shields, rifles, less lethal, Tasers, etc, then you need to either drag them kicking and screaming into the current era, or you should go someplace where they use more common sense about what tools should be available. Seriously- no rifles- walk. No shields for patrol- walk. Fuck it. This is considered very basic stuff these days. And if you are the type (we all know them) who can point out problems, but refuses to assist in creating solutions, then you kind of deserve to not have what you need. If your agency is worth a damn you should be able to convince them that having basic breaching tools is worth the cost- but you may need to head that program up and become an instructor or SME. Embrace it if you get that opportunity. Anyhow- Some of these replies! Who gives a shit if I can throw a dead deer in the trunk- we didn’t ever do that! We shot the damn things and send a message to the highway dept or gave it to a passing motorist. My trunk had an AED, a couple boxes of flares, cones, all the stuff listed above, a bunch of armor, and a shitload of other needed stuff. No room for a bicycle! Not only did I have a shield but I had a ballistic blanket as well, as did several other patrol Sgts. At any given time we could come up with multiple shields, multiple rifles, at least 1 or 2 40mm launchers, a couple breaching options, etc. Just with what was available 100% of the time at any given hour. This stuff is not specialized. And if your SWAT team is basically not of the opinion that everyone should have basics like shields, door keys, etc, that is an institutional problem as well. Being gate keepers of training, skill sets, and gear is not what it is about. And if you don’t have SWAT, and you don’t have anything like I am talking about, who the hell is expected to deal with a school shooting? Or is it “good luck kiddos”? Seriously- if you have a glaring hole in your agency’s skills and abilities, and it is not addressed, that is just negligent. The year is 2022. Halligan tool- $300 (Amazon) (Cheaper option- wrecking bar $50) Sledge $40 (Amazon) 5.56 rated shield $850 (Botach) Not exactly break the bank type stuff. I am sorry if your agency is poorly funded and behind the times. But if they have any BS budget items they have money for basic breaching tools. Again- seized burglar tools are also known as breaching tools... At least there are a few others replying who know how well you can break thru a building with just a sledge, who have breaching gear and training for their patrol folks. My agency was not that tip of the spear by any means, but we were small enough that you could get stuff done, and big enough to see the need. I always see the last ones to get with the times being the biggest agencies with money problems, and the smallest agencies (as they perpetually have money problems). Failing to plan for the possibility of this type of event is not an option. If you can’t deal with it, start working on fixing that today. FYI- I never was a designated breacher either. Just a decently trained team member, instructor in many subjects, and scrounger/procurer of equipment for patrol and tactical needs. This stuff isn’t that high level. Actual breachers are experts on things like explosive breaching/etc. View Quote Since you're replying to my post, the deer and bicycle post was to point out the changes in available space in patrol cars. We didnt used to carry anything in the relatively large trunks that existed back in the late 80s and early 90s. You could literally throw a recovered bicycle or a deer in the trunk, which happened quite often. Then they started filling the trunks up with all sorts of stuff in the late 90s, and the trunks and patrol cars overall shrank to the point where there's no room to put a shield in each patrol car. I can't imagine how much more they're going to shrink as we transition to a green fleet comprised of largely plastic vehicles. And $1000 per patrol car to put a shield in there that might get used about as often as the halligan tool..which is never...most admins aren't going to spend that kind of money for something that gets used rarely or never, when there are more pressing demands on available budget dollars. They might put a shield in a supervisors vehicle since they tend to drive SUVs that still have some room to put stuff into. Not much, since they're carrying not only their own vehicles gear but extra supplies that are expected to resupply the patrol cars at a scene. Small agencies in general do not have the funding to equip their cars the way you are suggesting. Thats simple reality. Maybe larger urban agencies have more funding flexibility, but we're coming off two years where politicians were redirecting funding towards "police reimagining" that focuses on unarmed social workers. Even with some agencies getting some of that funding back this last year, budgets are simply not that flexible. I'm not sure why you're bringing up tasers, rifles, etc...most agencies managed to obtain those sorts of items a decade or more ago. |
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Quoted: While getting shot at… yeah that’s gonna take quite a few guys to drill that hole because you’ll be piling them up View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: No excuse.. I can list dozens of ways to open that door or enter a room.. I’ve installed these doors, I’ve installed the block around them, both solid and grouted block.. The frames are not only anchored to the surrounding blocks and walls but they are likely pour solid as well.. Your not going to open that door by attacking the frame.. since the doors open out, your not going to beat the door in...Drill a fucking hole with a hole saw in the fucking door reach your stupid hand inside and unlock the door.. Your don’t need to defeat the entire door, or pick the lock, drive a car/suv into the building.. While getting shot at… yeah that’s gonna take quite a few guys to drill that hole because you’ll be piling them up When the man drilling the hole goes down, the man behind him picks up the drill and continues drilling the hole. |
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Quoted: It's meant to protect the officers. There's no need to give a statement immediately View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I’d have to see that policy in writing to believe it. It's meant to protect the officers. There's no need to give a statement immediately It's pretty much standard for a critical incident, gives folks a chance to bleed off all the adrenaline. Not just the officers, but everyone involved such as witnesses or victims. I'd have to dig out the CD, but I'm pretty sure it's a CALEA thing. |
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Quoted: The SWAT commanding officer should have had keys to the school before this shooting event ever took place. Foresight and contingency for future operations is partially what these police officers should be getting paid for. If not, then their services to the community should be considered substandard and in need of updating. View Quote Most small communities don't have dedicated swat teams. Multi agency teams cover such a large area that would include multiple school districts,not just individual schools , that it's not likely. If the community is relying on a state team that will take hours to arrive on scene, that team won't have anything associated with the local area |
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Quoted: They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself. https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:* View Quote I'm not embarrassed at all. Why would I be? |
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Quoted: They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself. https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:* View Quote I have no idea where the pic came from, but how in the hell do you think a dept with 5 cars and 26 officers can field a SWAT team? It's also not their dept patch. |
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JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations.
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Quoted: I have no idea where the pic came from, but how in the hell do you think a dept with 5 cars and 26 officers can field a SWAT team? It's also not their dept patch. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself. https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:* I have no idea where the pic came from, but how in the hell do you think a dept with 5 cars and 26 officers can field a SWAT team? It's also not their dept patch. Stop embarrassing yourself. They had a SWAT team. Uvalde SWAT Team Bragged About Training at Schools on Facebook |
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I don't carry anything that would get me through the school doors in any of the schools in our county.
If I need to get in RFN I'm going through a window. |
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Quoted: JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations. View Quote Stop it with the vehicle breaching crap already. It's starting to make the board look like the local fool farm. |
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Quoted: JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations. View Quote Of all the ways to get inside of a building, I can't possibly think of a dumber one. I've responded to enough vehicle vs building calls to know you don't have a fucking clue what you're on about. |
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Quoted: Stop embarrassing yourself. They had a SWAT team. Uvalde SWAT Team Bragged About Training at Schools on Facebook View Quote You keep saying that we should be embarrassed. I certainly am not. There's next to no information on the department size on their own webpage. Their Facebook page has been taken down. They can call that group anything they want but I bet it's not a fully equipped or trained SWAT team. And it would take any team being called in at least an hour to get on site. Or about as long as it took to end the incident.So why are we even discussing their swat team |
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Quoted: Who is the pussy ass cuck that implemented that stupidity? View Quote Like anything else it's dollars and cents. The role of long gun was assumed by the AR. They weren't going to fund two long gun systems. The way to keep the 870s on some useful role was to make them less lethal platforms. Otherwise they would still be sitting in the armory quietly rusting like all good Remington products do. |
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Quoted: You keep saying that we should be embarrassed. I certainly am not. There's next to no information on the department size on their own webpage. Their Facebook page has been taken down. They can call that group anything they want but I bet it's not a fully equipped or trained SWAT team. And it would take any team being called in at least an hour to get on site. Or about as long as it took to end the incident.So why are we even discussing their swat team View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Stop embarrassing yourself. They had a SWAT team. Uvalde SWAT Team Bragged About Training at Schools on Facebook You keep saying that we should be embarrassed. I certainly am not. There's next to no information on the department size on their own webpage. Their Facebook page has been taken down. They can call that group anything they want but I bet it's not a fully equipped or trained SWAT team. And it would take any team being called in at least an hour to get on site. Or about as long as it took to end the incident.So why are we even discussing their swat team Because you said it didn't exist; and you continue to delete quotes that show you are wrong. It's deliberate misinformation you are posting. |
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Quoted: Because you said it didn't exist; and you continue to delete quotes that show you are wrong. It's deliberate misinformation you are posting. View Quote I didn't say that this town specifically have a swat team. I said most small town agencies don't have swat teams. Which is correct. And while they may call that their swat team as a PR thing, I doubt that in reality they're trained or equipped for much more than high risk warrants. As John pointed out it's a small agency and the PD sounds like it's taking up a huge percentage of the municipal budget. I doubt that they're sending that crew off to many swat schools. As for deleting quotes that you think have contrary information, I have no idea why you're making that claim. I'm not deleting anything |
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Quoted: JFC. A 5800# vehicle will breach a whole fucking wall like the fist of a god. The cops would’ve had to take me out to keep me from ramming the bldg. Terrible that no one can think logically in high stress situations. View Quote From what I’ve seen, the cops were in the building. Getting into the one specific room the suspect was in was the delay. I doubt driving a patrol car through the wall of a room occupied by victims and potential victims is going to be considered reasonable. Something like a bearcat with a ram, yes. Drive a patrol car through the wall crushing kids, no. |
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Quoted: From what I’ve seen, the cops were in the building. Getting into the one specific room the suspect was in was the delay. I doubt driving a patrol car through the wall of a room occupied by victims and potential victims is going to be considered reasonable. Something like a bearcat with a ram, yes. Drive a patrol car through the wall crushing kids, no. View Quote |
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Quoted: I typed nothing about a patrol car driving into a room full of hostages/ children. Lessons in reading comprehension and critical thinking are a thing. There is a time to think logically and a time to think inside the same old box and playing grab ass while innocents are dying. I hope no one from GD is sent to rescue any of my family. View Quote Maybe you should explain what wall you thought they should ram. They were in the school. The room they couldn't access was the room the kids were in. It's pretty reasonable given that that you're talking about crashing the vehicle into the exterior wall of the classroom |
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Quoted: Gotta be honest, some of the other LEO responses here make me happy as hell that I worked in a well paid area, for folks who learned basic lessons decades ago. And at places where solutions were not always shouted down... Oh no- breaching tools cost money?! Big fucking deal- sledges are cheap. Halligans are very affordable. Bolt cutters are free with every 10th burglary arrest. (Seriously- we sourced a lot of breaching tools from old evidence items to be disposed of). I bought breaching equipment for patrol multiple times at the end of budget years when it was use it or lose it time. Oh no- how do you breach with shotguns? Too dangerous, need purpose made ammo, etc.... Not really- If you train your people up, they will know how to do it. And regular ammo can be used, though it is not as safe for others and may not be as effective. If that is all I have, and someone is shooting kids on the other side of the door, I will use what I have available. And training priorities are a thing, shotgun breaching is not super difficult. (Note- We did not train patrol on ballistic breaching, but at any given time there was usually 1-3 people available with designated breaching SBS 870’s from SWAT. And patrol did have other breaching tools as well). Shields cost money- yep. But not that much! Come on! Spend 1K and you will have a basic ballistic shield capable of stopping all handgun and most rifle rounds. Rifle shields used to be so heavy that we didn’t bother as they were not worth the weight, but with new armor technology (HDPE) the newer rifle rated shields are much lighter.... actually I just looked it up. A cheap Botach Battle Steel brand shield, 5.56 rated, is only $850. Come on.... Basically at roll call I would ensure that between 6-10 patrol folks we had, at minimum: 40mm Less Lethal Ballistic Shield Door Breach Key Sledge/Misc breaching tools like bolt cutters Night vision If any of this needed to come from the previous shift they handed them off to the incoming. But we had multiples of everything. So stuff was constantly coming in and out of patrol cars. Shields basically transferred cars all day long. Nearly everyone had a rifle if they had been there more than a year or so to be trained up on them. As I was SWAT, I had all the above in my car, plus a breaching 12 gauge, plus flash bangs, a gas bag full of CS and OC hand thrown and 40mm, etc etc etc. I handed off my shield and 40mm all the time on scenes. Lately they added helmets to the gear everyone on patrol has. I tried for years to get those, issued out old surplus stuff we had when I could, but it took recent events for them to get th idea to just buy everyone a helmet. Long before all this, SOP was that the patrol Sgts carried a 40mm, a shield, and a door key. This meant the gear arrived on scene, ready to be handed out. However it is a better policy to have more than enough gear for everyone and to have it carried by the Officer/Deputy level folks. I started in the mid-90’s as well. Things that were specialized SWAT items gradually became standard patrol items. Having stuff available for when it is actually needed is so much better than having it locked up in a tactical vehicle that you don’t have the keys for. That might fly if- a really big if- you have a full time, 24 hr SWAT team on duty. Not many of those around. I dealt with agencies that needed their eyes opened for patrol rifles and less lethal weapons. It took me 2 entire years of work to create a rifle program from zero. But my second program- LL, was an easy sell. And when I went to another agency and revamped their programs it was not too difficult to get the needed support. If your agency can’t afford to purchase basic stuff like sledge hammers, door keys, shields, rifles, less lethal, Tasers, etc, then you need to either drag them kicking and screaming into the current era, or you should go someplace where they use more common sense about what tools should be available. Seriously- no rifles- walk. No shields for patrol- walk. Fuck it. This is considered very basic stuff these days. And if you are the type (we all know them) who can point out problems, but refuses to assist in creating solutions, then you kind of deserve to not have what you need. If your agency is worth a damn you should be able to convince them that having basic breaching tools is worth the cost- but you may need to head that program up and become an instructor or SME. Embrace it if you get that opportunity. Anyhow- Some of these replies! Who gives a shit if I can throw a dead deer in the trunk- we didn’t ever do that! We shot the damn things and send a message to the highway dept or gave it to a passing motorist. My trunk had an AED, a couple boxes of flares, cones, all the stuff listed above, a bunch of armor, and a shitload of other needed stuff. No room for a bicycle! Not only did I have a shield but I had a ballistic blanket as well, as did several other patrol Sgts. At any given time we could come up with multiple shields, multiple rifles, at least 1 or 2 40mm launchers, a couple breaching options, etc. Just with what was available 100% of the time at any given hour. This stuff is not specialized. And if your SWAT team is basically not of the opinion that everyone should have basics like shields, door keys, etc, that is an institutional problem as well. Being gate keepers of training, skill sets, and gear is not what it is about. And if you don’t have SWAT, and you don’t have anything like I am talking about, who the hell is expected to deal with a school shooting? Or is it “good luck kiddos”? Seriously- if you have a glaring hole in your agency’s skills and abilities, and it is not addressed, that is just negligent. The year is 2022. Halligan tool- $300 (Amazon) (Cheaper option- wrecking bar $50) Sledge $40 (Amazon) 5.56 rated shield $850 (Botach) Not exactly break the bank type stuff. I am sorry if your agency is poorly funded and behind the times. But if they have any BS budget items they have money for basic breaching tools. Again- seized burglar tools are also known as breaching tools... At least there are a few others replying who know how well you can break thru a building with just a sledge, who have breaching gear and training for their patrol folks. My agency was not that tip of the spear by any means, but we were small enough that you could get stuff done, and big enough to see the need. I always see the last ones to get with the times being the biggest agencies with money problems, and the smallest agencies (as they perpetually have money problems). Failing to plan for the possibility of this type of event is not an option. If you can’t deal with it, start working on fixing that today. FYI- I never was a designated breacher either. Just a decently trained team member, instructor in many subjects, and scrounger/procurer of equipment for patrol and tactical needs. This stuff isn’t that high level. Actual breachers are experts on things like explosive breaching/etc. View Quote Just curious....what is the size of your agency/tax base of the area you police/etc? |
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Quoted: I typed nothing about a patrol car driving into a room full of hostages/ children. Lessons in reading comprehension and critical thinking are a thing. There is a time to think logically and a time to think inside the same old box and playing grab ass while innocents are dying. I hope no one from GD is sent to rescue any of my family. View Quote Soits logical to believe that when you say a 5800# vehicle will breach a wall like the fist of a god (It won't by the way) and that nobody could stop you from ramming the building that you are speaking about trying to ram the building into one of those two specific classrooms that has all the victims in them. There were cops in the school. Entering the classroom seems to have been the issue. |
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Quoted: All of patrol is taught ballistic breaching here. I've screamed at the top of my lungs about the need for shields and manual breaching gear, and have finally gotten some admin on board. But the almighty dollar comes in to play. View Quote Wait? Patrol is taught ballistic breaching but not mechanical? |
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Quoted: Would not need to breach if they had planned accordingly PRIOR to this event. Our area, all schools, apartment complexes, .gov buildings etc. have Knox Boxes where police and fire can gain entry. https://www.knoxbox.com/ View Quote Yup. How was the Knox box not accessed to get a key rapidly? |
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Quoted: Do you ever respond to a conversation without belligerence? You have a truck and tools. It goes to scenes. That in no way means it is available to the officer(s) responding to an active shooter who encounters a locked door. Are you taking it inside to him and showing him how to use it? Are you using it with a shooter on the other side? If so, I'd really like to see that policy. Is the officer retreating outside to track down the fire truck and ask to borrow a sawzall? There is no circumstance based in reality where a cop is going to use a sawzall to cut a door lock while an active shooter is on the other side. Zero. None. If you believe there is, great. Doesn't matter to me. I'm just some internet troll. View Quote I will not break out MS Paint for you. But yea we could have a cop inside with a K12 or sawzall by 2nd or 3rd kill team. You are hyper focus on shit you want to focus on rather than solutions. That is very poor problem solving. |
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Dear breaching sme's, a real question:
With modern commercial building construction, are all interior walls firewalls ? Any way to go up thru interior ceiling panels and drop down on other side of interior walls ? Just curious, as shorter ultra lightweight extension ladders could be a tool. Thanks |
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Quoted: Wait? Patrol is taught ballistic breaching but not mechanical? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: All of patrol is taught ballistic breaching here. I've screamed at the top of my lungs about the need for shields and manual breaching gear, and have finally gotten some admin on board. But the almighty dollar comes in to play. Wait? Patrol is taught ballistic breaching but not mechanical? Yep. |
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Quoted: Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos. Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though View Quote Border patrol guy with no special equipment got in just fine. Keep defending shameful cops |
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Quoted: Dear breaching sme's, a real question: With modern commercial building construction, are all interior walls firewalls ? Any way to go up thru interior ceiling panels and drop down on other side of interior walls ? Just curious, as shorter ultra lightweight extension ladders could be a tool. Thanks View Quote Egress corridors are fire rated, usually 1 hour. |
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Quoted: They have a swat team. Stop embarrassing yourself. https://video-images.vice.com/articles/628faed04f8f30009bb9a5c9/lede/1653584108900-untitled-1440-810-px4.png?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:* View Quote and every time I see it, it reminds me of the VA (?) department posing with the Oly pistol ARs that used to be posted here 20 years ago... |
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Quoted: We don't have rams in patrol cars. NOr do we have flashbangs, tear gas, shields or any of the fancy swat stuff that people have been suggesting we should have readily available. They put halligan tools in our trunks 20-plus years ago thinking that we'd be using them at accident scenes. I think I used mine once to smash out a windshield of a car that was on its side in a ditch. Otherwise you're better off waiting for the FD and their Jaws gear as far as vehicle extraction. Most school doors around here are those heavy things that are several inches thick. You're not kicking those in. View Quote Do you think it's too late to get that 40 billion back from Ukraine, and spend it on improving school security? |
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General patrol officers don’t keep ho tools on hand, and they normally don’t have breach training. You can’t mule kick a commercial grade door. The entire incident was a CF, I’m glad the BORTAC guy kitted up on his off day.
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Quoted: Border patrol guy with no special equipment got in just fine. Keep defending shameful cops View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos. Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though Border patrol guy with no special equipment got in just fine. Keep defending shameful cops A little girl in the classroom says the gunman shot the window out of the door and entered the classroom. The "locked door" theory was debunked with that one statement. |
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Quoted: Do you ever respond to a conversation without belligerence? You have a truck and tools. It goes to scenes. That in no way means it is available to the officer(s) responding to an active shooter who encounters a locked door. Are you taking it inside to him and showing him how to use it? Are you using it with a shooter on the other side? If so, I’d really like to see that policy. Is the officer retreating outside to track down the fire truck and ask to borrow a sawzall? There is no circumstance based in reality where a cop is going to use a sawzall to cut a door lock while an active shooter is on the other side. Zero. None. If you believe there is, great. Doesn’t matter to me. I’m just some internet troll. View Quote You could have gotten volunteers to go in with the cops. Some things are worth getting paper for if the chief disagrees. |
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Quoted: You don't listen. You didn't read the thread. You have no concept at all how active shooter response worked when coordinated with a unified command between FD and PD. I will not break out MS Paint for you. But yea we could have a cop inside with a K12 or sawzall by 2nd or 3rd kill team. You are hyper focus on shit you want to focus on rather than solutions. That is very poor problem solving. View Quote And then what? Now you have a cop with a sawzall. Again, there is no situation based in reality where a cop is going to use a sawzall to breach a door with an active shooter on the other side. Stick to the point. |
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Quoted: In what fantasy world is this practical? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Put a fucking sawzall in the jamb and cut through the bolt. Do the same with a K12 rotary saw. Both methods can be pretty damn quick with the right blade In what fantasy world is this practical? I've fast roped or helo infil a stihl concrete saw, the "quickie saw", many times, even changed blades on the obj. It's practical when you realize it's needed and it works. Now there is smaller, battery powered options that may fit the bill, and would be much easier to maintain in the trunk of a patrol car. |
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