That does make sense.

Gotcha. Thank you for clarifying.

I agree. Zeroing and consistent groups would be easier with FF guns.

I don't get what your point is?  Just because military tactics have changed the shooting sport should also?








Or do you want target shooters to now be all Costa hip with their elbows above their heads?


Don't get me wrong, I know times change.  I applaud the USMC for teaching the ACOG only now as they have proved out that scores and hits actually have increased with using the ACOG only.  If you want a more lethal force then go for it since their studies have shown they have better shooters with them.  But for target shooting you don't need to change just because.

This is sort of what I meant. What I meant is going from slung to unslung shooting will see some impact shifts that are more exaggerated on the M4 vs. other platforms.

I want to respond to both.

I agree it is a different zero. It's just recorded. I know my m16a2 clone needs 6 clicks up at 200 yards with a tight hasty sling.

All this room clearing stuff you see everyone practicing....how practical is that?

If we ever do have to fight a tyrannical government, I think the government will be kicking down doors and doing room to room sweeps not be targeted by room to room sweeps.  Seems to me basic long-range riflery to fuck shit up then get the fuck out of there is going to be more likely, and for that going prone and using a sling is the smart things to know

So, are you guys saying that Appleseed teaches the basics?

Is there a difference?

Seriously though. Modern USMC KD qual course of fire is direct descendant on early 20th century combat marksmanship training. Same goes for Appleseed and CMP.

Its like fencing. Back in the day it was about learning to really fight. Then they standardized it and it became only a sport  (Because the modem shit is a joke). Meanwhile there is HEMA and ARMA which are based on practical  swordsmanship.

Chickenwing standing offhand  and cocked leg loop sling prone is sport only. To say its about teaching fundamentals is to deny the history of it while often unknowingly repeating a cop out answer created by people wanting to play sports and not train to fight our fellow man.

Took the 10/22 out just now to see where it was printing.
(Changed the bbl and added a scope)

Frustratingly the trigger wouldn't reset. Had to push it forward with finger after each shot. Need to look into that.


(50 yds  from bench  with a rolled up sock on rear of stock)

You've never seen saber fencing have you?

The chicken wing standing as you call it teaches bone support, the importance of breath control, re inforces NPOA, and does nothing to diminish more martial techniques later on. It gives a base.

Are you suggesting that the capability to deliver precision shots increases as the stability of the shooting platform increases?

Compared to a snap-shooting position, standing offhand is more stable and precise, as it doesn't rely as much on muscles for support.

In truth I do find it interesting. Just stating my own experience. Yes my irons groups were always larger than my optics groups. But after spend quality time over my AR irons (magpul mbus pro's) my optic groups shrank further. granted I have never tried anything past 100yrds, or with any other ammo but cheap AE stuff, but I have seen improvement. If I were to put a point on it, irons taught me breathing, or rather corrected my breathing. Keeping two points lined up made me work on it. 

Again YMMV, that is just what worked for me. 

I didn't ask where your studies are located i asked how they gathered the data? Is that OPSEC?

Either personal surveys were issued to 03's post deployment using honor system asking "How many rounds did it take to hit your target on average for this deployment?" Then comparing results to surveys done in old deployments. Or...

Or you're taking x rounds fired in combat defined by DODIC for stripper clip ammo rifleman used divided by y number of enemy casualties reported in AARs to create hit percentages.

The former is highly flawed but the latter is even worse because it doesn't account for suppressive fire which is vast majority of small arms fire. Does the M27 use same ammo that the stats were derived from? If so now you're including an automatic weapon ammo expenditure to service rifles.

Even if aimed fire on point targets jumped by 200% you would barely a dent in your calculations because that number of point target engagements is always slim,  spotting an enemy is rare.

Stats are even more varied since with an ACOG a riflemen can deliver more longer range suppressive fire than previously, so he'll be firing more. And I'm guessing most recent data came from Afghanistan which has notoriously longer engagement distances than the previous data that was probably also biased by the shorter engagement distances in Iraq. So more longer range suppressive fires with less assurance of hits.

That data is near meaningless besides sticking it in a powerpoint slide to drive a point home when influencing others who don't know better. This is not a slam on you, i deal with this crap everyday with work too, data and statistics really exists solely to be manipulated. I use them at work all the time to back up an argument I'm trying to make by juking stats, bosses love that shit, they think its science.

The easiest way to tell if I'm wrong or not is get someone with M16A2 with irons and web sling and PASGT 782 gear and have him run though a field fire course (but they are not allowed to use hasty or loop sling, since nobody ever used it in combat recently). Then compare scores of same people with M4 with ACOG and VCAS sling, and plate carriers using modern TTPs. I bet the latter conditions lead to more hits.

I'm guessing you did not bother to see if or if not said example spent years in high power or some other disciplined long range competition before hand did you

People still do that?

Shhhhhhhhhh. Quit making sense. You'll offend the couple of Tier 1 operators posting in this thread that think Appleseed should be teaching 12 year olds CQB-Chris Costa-ATAS shit rather then the fundamentals of basic marksmanship.

I started with irons as well. 6 years old and my dad had me with an anshutz.

I always thought as you did fwiw.

My goodness, I really should be working.

I apologize folks. I am avoiding work at the highest level right now. Going back to earning my pay

S/F

This site has hundreds of thousands of members.  We probably have thousands of High Power shooters on this site. We must have thousands of Marines who qualified Expert (which is FAR more difficult than earning a Rifleman patch, which requires no windage or elevation changes).  And then we have the really talented guys (in smaller numbers), who shoot at high levels of competition and/or at long distances, or are Scout Snipers, etc.  I am NOT disparaging the Appleseed program; I am disparaging the 'tards who claim that everyone can still benefit from it.  You can't shoot at long distances until you have already mastered the basics, so anyone who is shooting well at distance, will not benefit from a very basic Appleseed class.  

Maybe my computer analogy wasn't easy enough for you to understand.  Would you take a class on basic multiplication and division, after getting an A or B in calculus, or even Algebra?  Of course not.  You already knew that, or you could not have taken the advanced classes.  

Yes, there are plenty of people who think they are better than they are.  But there actually are millions of people in this country who are already shooting beyond the skill level that Appleseed teaches.  If you aren't one of them, then go to your Appleseed and have fun.  But stop claiming that everyone should take it.

And the "old high chicken wing" was from wing shooters needing to rapidly move left to right following birds.  Watch skeet shooters. 
For fighting inside buildings with corners and barriers, it can hamper movement, so the right arm got tucked down.  But now the left to right movement speed is down, so the reverse chicken wing helped to bring that up while still staying a bit compact around barriers.
Also the chicken wing is from when butt stocks hooked under the arm pit, so on a rifle you never squared up, you stood sideways.
It sounds like Appleseed teaches basics that lets you choose what is best for your use, rather what is best for modern military philosophy.

Post 556.

For max accuracy the competition stance is going to be better. If the tactical stance was as accurate, it would be used in competition.

The most accurate way to shoot offhand is the way target shooters do. Likewise, the mostly accurate way to shoot without a support or bipod is prone using a sling.

The competition stance isn't good for fast tactical shooting, but it is for accurate shooting.

Oh my, aren't we defensive.  We have lots of High Power guys come out and shoot Appleseed, most of them have fun and say they learned something.  We have military and police who come out and shoot too; they generally do very well and say the same thing.  Every once in a while, we have someone who comes out and already knows it all, and every once in a very, very long time, one of those guys will be correct.  My unscientific, non statistically meaningful observation is that there are far more people who would benefit from Appleseed training that would not, but perhaps things are different in your world.

For the record, I don't see anybody in this thread claiming that everyone could benefit from Appleseed.

Learning irons on rifles translates well to pistols and shotguns. It's not as one dimensional as starting on optics. Pus, starting on irons means more repetitions with a less parallax forgiving system, vs hundreds of rounds or more with more forgiving sights.  It doesn't take many reps to form habits, good or bad, but it takes thousands of reps to kick bad habits.

I'm just repeating what the Marine Corps found.

Ah, I understand what you meant now.

I think what we were getting at was that with a Buis or RDS it would be difficult to transition between slung vs. unslung in combat conditions. A2 rear sights make that an easier transition fo sho...

You just quoted it, but apparently didn't bother to read it!  

And being "military or police" does not mean a person won't benefit from an Appleseed.  Lots of cops and military suck at shooting.  Even being a high power shooter doesn't mean they won't benefit (because even shitty shooters are welcome, as long as you can stay on paper), but being an Expert, Master, High Master in HP, or qualifying expert in the Corps, or placing in any medium to long distance competition, being a military sniper, etc. all mean that you have progressed well beyond what Appleseed teaches, and we have literally millions of those people in this country.  Even serious smallbore shooters are well beyond Appleseed.  It is VERY basic, which some of you don't seem to understand.  

No, I'm not defensive, and this isn't about me.  It's about the 'tards in every Appleseed thread who pretend there is something magical about it that can improve everyone's shooting.

Lesse... I'm coming up on 120 Appleseeds.  No, that's not a typo.  I've seen ex-marines, police, and a good section of the "millions" you refer to.  Most of them can and do make shots with a bipod - but that's Helen Keller shooting.  Some show up and leave with a patch.  Most don't.  Service rifle shooters do better than the average bear, but not all of them qualify.  In all those events, I've yet to hear someone say the event wasn't worth their time.  I carry cash so I can refund someone on the spot, out of my pocket, if that ever happens. 

At worst, it's a solid two days of instruction at the range and refresh on fundamentals people don't practice enough.  At best, new shooters learn stuff and established shooters knock the rust off.  But most of all, it's an opportunity to learn about the Founding of the Republic and hear a story that defines us all as Americans.

Why so angry, @Devildog1970?  Joe ain't wrong.

I dunno where you went to an Appleseed to establish your view of the program.  They are all staffed by volunteer instructors.  There's not a single paid employee in the program.  If there was a quality or instructional issue at the event you attended, drop me a note.  I'll line you up with another event or refund your ticket cost out of my own pocket, if something didn't meet your expectations.

great thing about smallbore is it's literally nothing but competing to see who has complete mastery of nothing but fundamentals and position shooting, while isolating a huge amount of variables.

In the 8 years or so I did it, shot about 40k rounds.

They might want to find a new spokesman.    You kind of suck at it.

you're not picking up what he's putting down.

Go high tech. Our club president got one. He was showing me the app and it's really cool. $150, less if you dicker with Optics Planet according to our club president. Rifle, handgun, dry fire, live fire - your choice.

Cool beans

MantisX is a revolutionary patent-pending firearm attachment that helps firearms enthusiasts and professionals train more efficiently. While attached to a pistol or rifle, it analyzes every shot and generates actionable data you can use to improve your shooting mechanics.  (No rail?  We have adapters).

shows the app demo

Modern Sports Coaching show us the same thing the Marine Corps found.

To quickly build fundamentals students need to be able to isolate those fundamentals as much as possible.

Adding sight alignment when teaching proper stance and trigger control needlessly complicates the learning process.

Sight alignment is not a fundamental of shooting with modern optic.

Sight alignment is an advanced skill best learned after stance and trigger control are well established.

I know this induces a whole bunch of cognitive dissonance.

Listen to The Great One talk about how to start shooters with an open mind.

No... he's coming through 5x5 - both in tone and content.

We have about 340 million people in this country.  How many can really shoot?  I don't mean people who used to be able to shoot once upon a time.  I mean TODAY people who can pick up a rack grade rifle and surplus ball ammo to engage a man sized target at 500.  No arguments about freefloated barrels or match ammo.  If 3,000,000 people can shoot unsupported better than Appleseed teaches... I'll eat my hat.  That's less than 1%. 

But the fact our friend adeptly avoids is the fact that Appleseed *isn't* a shooting program.  It's a program about Liberty that also teaches people to shoot.

Most American's know jack about the values our Founders and the sacrifices they went through for us.  Most Americans have zero appreciation for it, but they can sure sing along with Lee Greenwood.  We believe that if someone hears the who, how, and why behind that story, it can be transforming.  It can even affect well-established shooters and help them to become better Americans.  TOur ship is sinking.  Only Americans believing in Liberty will right this sinking ship - not the church, not the boy scouts, not the next election.  That's what the program is about.

Odd, I read it as him pointing it's a basic marksmanship course and there's no need for people to freak out about what it isn't.

Could be. 

I've always found it difficult to communicate with Marines.  That mouthful of crayons leads to all y'all mumbling most the time. 

Applseed ever going to allow MP15-22 use again?

Why don't you slow down and read my last couple of posts again, because it's obvious that you replied without doing it. Then go back and read the whole thread before replying again.  I already said that I support the program, but get annoyed with the retards who pretend it has some magic that makes everyone better.  It's basics, that's it.

It will be of benefit to not sling the term "retards" around so much.  I've previously in this thread mentioned similar to another poster.  Give it some thought.  raf

Has anyone beat this record yet.  With, or without a sling.  With or without optics?  

Seventy-one straight bullseyes at 1,000 yds.  He had to stop at 71 because it got dark.

Think about it.

birth-of-a-legend-the-farr-rifle

And it can be done for less money than some of the other shooting sports.  And you can practice in the backyard (depending where you live).  Lots of cool stuff about smallbore.

Holy shit, TA31 ACOGs have cameras in them recording gunfights!

IMO the systematic issues you're discussing likely stem from rifles being inherently accurate weapons with untold variables negatively effecting accuracy. But they knew that back in the 50-60s too, you're aware of SALVO. Sure, it would be cost prohibitive to try to really fix it, and that involves first fully defining what's wrong in the first place, which would likely be hard for any large body to really chew through. But there are some things people like you can do and I think the reforms were definitely worth it, I really do like the stuff the Marine Corps has done in the last decade or so and that's not just the former Jarhead in me, that's the guy who recognizes how hard it is to turn around the oiltanker bureaucracy to make changes in giant institutions, its nearly impossible. Its motivating y'all did it, after the hard work somebody up top finally listened. It reminds me of the good that came from this arfcom post written by a Marine wounded in a shitty town called Tarmiyah when his old school marksmanship instruction failed him in combat and cost him his legs.

One of the best posts about training and mindset I've ever seen

A True Hero, not just because of what he did but having the courage to use self criticism to enlighten so many others. God bless him. Everyone should read this.

Wing shooters didn't teach the Royal Army shooting team back in the late 1800s to fire rifles and they are who the US Army copied the marksmanship program from. And all the civilian programs, they all learned shit from the the US Army, that's where the NRA matches came from, CMP, Appleseed, etc. They took the Army qualification course of fire and made a civilian shooting competition sport out of it. And now people take this combat marksmanship training and try to act as if it wasn't considered combat training until fairly recently.

Chicken wing increases the surface area of the shoulder pocket in a manner that isn't overly muscular taxing, necessary because while in a bladed stance the pocket is near non-existent. Maybe the bladed stance was taught early on because it allowed minimum body exposure in the pre-body armor days, but maybe that reason is a whole lot less valid. Maybe the stance was taught for musket firing back when this was how combat went, in other words they were bladed because tradition, that's how they always shot for combat marksmanship, bladed. Further, chicken winging allowed the shooter to get closer on the iron sights, very necessary with very small diameter peep sights (or those used on the M1903A1, the peep hole is stupid small). And the angle worked to give the support elbow room to jam against the front of the ribcage while the hand supported the weight of the rifle at the balance point. You bitch hip a bit to change the spinal alignment for additional support. I know how that all works, I know the body mechanics, but more so I know the history of who basically started it all and why its was done that. Its not because of what most are saying now. It was because the highest of generals, all of whom were themselves veterans of combat (in an age of musketry, and blackpowder rifles), that was how they wanted their own riflemen to fire in combat. So the methods they taught in 1910 that are near identical to techniques taught in Appleseed today, there are just old combat techniques that have become so engrained into a sport that nobody involved in the sport seems willing to get rid of it to replace with more modern stuff. Its because breaking tradition sucks and is unpopular.

This is like if thumbs forward pistol shooting became the customary and only legal sporting way to hold a pistol used in the most popular and well respected pistol shooting sport for the next 100 years. Suddenly somebody comes up with a new technique that works so much better, but nobody will change because they think they can only learn the fundamentals doing it thumbs forward. Substitute thumbs forward with one handed pistol and that is actually a very true metaphor. Or substitute rifle loop slings and other old shit.

Im not sure if it was just his unit or what but we were training MOUT a lot in that time period and we're trained to face our plates, speed reload, etc.

We would just blade while shooting durring qual.

Do you realize that the bullseye is 36" in diameter?

I am not trying to take anything away from his shooting but it is something to take into account.

This is a thread I started 10 days ago when I shot my M1A National Match with its hooded aperture sight at 300M.
I'm shooting at a 6" circle from 300m which is the equivalent of an 18" circle at 900M or 984Y

Living in Canada I have not tried an Appleseed but I will try to make it to one next summer.

I try to learn from every type of situation.
M1A 300M

Check out https://mapleseedrifleman.com/   

Part in bold. I linked above in a post to the story about a Marine in Iraq who got spined because bladed stance. He did it because the KD range shit was drilled into him, because that's most of what his marksmanship training unfortunately came down to, not enough tactical shit was beat into his head during SOI and his train up because the entire Marine Corps marksmanship program wasn't that combat realistic back then.  

You deployed, you know there isn't unlimited ammo, unlimited range time to perfect everything. Heavy training in all rifle marksmanship techniques including obsolete ones is just not possible, you have limited time, budget, ammo, etc. You need to train the guys on shit they need, and if its possible to learn the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship (Aiming, Breath Control, Trigger Control) from modern techniques then that's how it should be taught, drilled, and hopefully mastered. Though that never happens with a one term Marine, see Force Recon/MARSOC requirements. So the reality i guess is most shooters will be mediocre in combat marksmanship with some being good, and as few bad as possible.

I think this goes for civilian shooters too. Time is money, literally, spend it for the best results. If sport is your only desire, Service Rifle and National Match are fun. But if mission focused training (meaning real shit) is the focus, then probably best to skip all that old shit and spend the two days of Appleseed not allowing students to use modern techniques but focusing on them. Allows optics, Why not encourage them? Allow magazine on the deck, Why not make that sort of thing highly recommended?

Like a kid wanting to learn how to work on modern cars and you make him take apart a Model 8 Ford first. Great lesson but why not just take apart a modern Corolla?

I was in then. There was a ton of MOUT training being done at that time.

We only did 2 weeks a year on the kd range.

it happens... a lot....


Like all the time.  

It's been 10 years since I attended my last appleseed.

I pre-ordered Fred's target pack, and shot them religiously for months before I attended my first.

I could shoot 220s all day long out on Dad's private range, with just me shooting.

I thought I had it nailed, and would surely get my patch on the first day.

That shit all fell apart when I was on the firing line with 35 other rifles going off and hot brass raining all over me.

Suddenly, I was a 190 shooter all over again.