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I shot "rifleman" on my first Appleseed, as anyone should be able to do - it's very easy.
I keep going to them as I find it to be fun and a very inexpensive way to spend a weekend shooting. Whether people admit it or not, having instructors and fellow attendents observe introduces a level of focus that cannot easily be duplicated shooting off the back porch on your own spread of land. It's $60 + a brick of ammo. If that's too costly, I can appreciate that as an impediment but it's otherwise hard to argue against Appleseed as a great way to spend several days behind a rifle. |
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. View Quote |
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I haven't had the balls to attend either I do like finding my NPOA though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjycj3I9_dQ First target at 177, last at 425. Ironically I hit the 425 as many times as the 177 I think. Eta, this rifle was zeroed -1.25 at 25 yards and never confirmed past that View Quote https://youtu.be/FP6klVmpAns 14.5" pencil bbl |
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I think Ken is focusing on the word militia you're using and translating it as Meal Team 6 as opposed to the true definition of the militia which is the citizenry as a whole that are of "military age" as defined in US Code. Because of that negative connotation Appleseed has beat feet away from using the actual word militia in anything but a historical context. View Quote If Steinhab thinks we need a militia, he should go start one. Rock on, man! Because Appleseed isn't going to do if for him. That's not what the program is about. To paraphrase Fred: "If rounding up your buddies, forming a militia, and grabbing your guns is on your list... you've already lost. If you don't have the persistence to fight and win the soft war of ideas and information, you sure ain't gonna pull off the long hard war." Fuck that. I want a better future for my children and grandchildren. |
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I shit on shitty marksmanship training because this is a supposedly a gun board, but I guess we're only supposed to discuss trannies and beans. In the world's largest gun board clearly the SOP is to ridicule what even the US Army's AMU teaches now. We should laugh at every lesson learned since 1907. We should shit all over all the professional trainers who taught people how to shoot since the GWOT started, none of whom try to replicate what Dailey teaches. All because the cult expects it. After all, the fundamentals of marksmanship can only be learned with a sling... FYI, Fred Dailey's Army Qualification Test (AQT), which is the course of fire he was pimping in Shotgun News for years that he ripped off from the US Army from back in the day before he formalized his thing into a 503(c) organization, only teaches shooting out to 400 not 500 yards. I'm out of my element? I mean you jumped into the dogpile to ridicule me, I'm just saying you should know more about Appleseed than I do. Oh yeah, feel free to IM me your email address, I'll forward you my latest DD214 and then you judge me whether I'm a coward. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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so, this thread has been dominated by a guy who hasn't had the balls to attend an Appleseed OR to start his own nationwide introductory rifle shooting program, develop a program of instruction that teaches newbie shooters how to shoot out to 500 yards, developed a volunteer base to support it, find talented shooters to groom into instructors, etc. That's rich. steinhab you are truly out of your element when you shit all over Appleseed. FYI, Fred Dailey's Army Qualification Test (AQT), which is the course of fire he was pimping in Shotgun News for years that he ripped off from the US Army from back in the day before he formalized his thing into a 503(c) organization, only teaches shooting out to 400 not 500 yards. I'm out of my element? I mean you jumped into the dogpile to ridicule me, I'm just saying you should know more about Appleseed than I do. Oh yeah, feel free to IM me your email address, I'll forward you my latest DD214 and then you judge me whether I'm a coward. |
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I shot "rifleman" on my first Appleseed, as anyone should be able to do - it's very easy. I keep going to them as I find it to be fun and a very inexpensive way to spend a weekend shooting. Whether people admit it or not, having instructors and fellow attendents observe introduces a level of focus that cannot easily be duplicated shooting off the back porch on your own spread of land. It's $60 + a brick of ammo. If that's too costly, I can appreciate that as an impediment but it's otherwise hard to argue against Appleseed as a great way to spend several days behind a rifle. View Quote |
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No, that was just you. I called you out. Get that right. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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I haven't taken what you've been saying as shitting on Appleseed just trying to reconcile how it's presented as compared to what the website says as compared to what you think it should be. I've always been impressed with your posts in other discussions so here's my interpretation. Yes way back in the day Fred designed the program using old school methods to create a competent citizenry who could defend their nation and communities if things ever turned to shit. The program has churched that up a lot over the years to distance themselves from the Meal Team 6 militia negative image. I read those same Shotgun News articles 20 years ago and enjoyed them. I think Ken is focusing on the word militia you're using and translating it as Meal Team 6 as opposed to the true definition of the militia which is the citizenry as a whole that are of "military age" as defined in US Code. Because of that negative connotation Appleseed has beat feet away from using the actual word militia in anything but a historical context. To answer your earlier question some of us instructors discuss how we incorporate more modern techniques on the Appleseed forum. No, we're not excommunicated for teaching our students they don't have to be bladed at 30 or 45 degrees to fire a shot or use a traditional chicken wing. No, we don't include barricades and other "tactical" props as teaching a student how to hit a target without any "cheats" is an important first step in becoming an effective rifle shooter. That stuff is also one more thing to learn and in the interest of not distracting from an already lot to learn we don't add additional things. Beyond that shooting off a barricade of some kind helps with one aspect of stabilizing the rifle but adds some wobble too plus then we'd have to have 20 or 30 sets of barricades and that's kind of hard to fit in my minivan. Yes a person can just bipod up and go to town at 1200 yards without learning all that stuff but those guys often struggle if they have to do anything besides a planned stabilized shot with their rear bag, elbow bag and knee bag as patchouli pointed out a few pages ago. You really should go to an Appleseed or two with an AR of your choice and see how you do. All of the Shoot Bosses are good but like any program you will find a wide variation in methods and not all will click as well with any one person. If you enjoy the program come along and help out. We need more quality people to help with instruction and maybe make changes. If you're anywhere close to Pittsburg, KS come shoot as my guest at one. View Quote As far as I'm concerned militia is not a bad word and it doesn't mean overthrowing the govt. All able bodied citizens are supposed to be a in a militia, so how is that bad? It means protecting your country, that's good. I'm not a libtard trying to go point at the evil nazis and say "HAHA, I caught you! You're trying to form militias!" And maybe the Appleseed cultists need to step back a bit and realize that not everyone has religiously been following the struggle like they have and don't know which lingo words are verboten from being mentioned in reference to Appleseed. Fine, let me retract them. LEGAL DISCLAIMER. Appleseed is not and has never been a militia recruiting organization promoting the overthrow of the federal govt. They have nothing all all to do with Militia, any similarities are purely coincidental. Mentioning of Revolutionary War is purely for historical and entertainment purposes. Good enough for everyone? Want me to get it notarized? Can we move on to how stupid the Garand sling is in relation to it being 2017 and different sling method existing? |
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If crawl walk run and fundamentals are paramount, shouldn't the class be taught the fundamentals from a sandbagged/supported rest? View Quote If a person needs a bag to help them hold the rifle up we'll work with them but there are better programs for that like NRA basic. |
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I've never shot an Appleseed match. I have shot plenty of service rifle and Garland matches as well as various rattle battle matches. One thing I can say about the traditional methods of rifleman shooting is that in the right hands a rifle with iron sigghts gives up very little to one with optics.
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. View Quote I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. Shooter's Corner: "Firing Positions" This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. |
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I'm using the word militia in the modern context (as is Steinhab). The modern militia nutcases like the guys running around the woods in Michigan. 10 guys at the campfire in random camo, with at least several of them drawing paychecks as undercover agents for three-letter agencies. We've worked damned hard to stay away from that image. If Steinhab thinks we need a militia, he should go start one. Rock on, man! Because Appleseed isn't going to do if for him. That's not what the program is about. To paraphrase Fred: "If rounding up your buddies, forming a militia, and grabbing your guns is on your list... you've already lost. If you don't have the persistence to fight and win the soft war of ideas and information, you sure ain't gonna pull off the long hard war." Fuck that. I want a better future for my children and grandchildren. View Quote I absolutely agree that the mouthbreathers can go "train" somewhere else but really don't think that's at all what he means. I'm going for a ride and will check in later to see if this dumpster fire is still raging! |
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To paraphrase Fred: "If rounding up your buddies, forming a militia, and grabbing your guns is on your list... you've already lost. If you don't have the persistence to fight and win the soft war of ideas and information, you sure ain't gonna pull off the long hard war." View Quote DOOFUS AMERICANUS: A variety of "citizen" that spends 100% of their time in a perpetual fog of unreality, unable to distinguish between the garbage constantly fed to them by the liberal media and the government establishment and the plain fact that Liberty and Freedom are not gifts or privileges, but the natural right of every person that must be vigilantly guarded at the cost of the sweat, tears and occasionally the blood of Patriots. Quick, go paraphrase him again to explain what this really means. |
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Not saying this as an official comment, but it appears that you are getting a little too wound-up. View Quote |
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To actually quote Fred: DOOFUS AMERICANUS: A variety of "citizen" that spends 100% of their time in a perpetual fog of unreality, unable to distinguish between the garbage constantly fed to them by the liberal media and the government establishment and the plain fact that Liberty and Freedom are not gifts or privileges, but the natural right of every person that must be vigilantly guarded at the cost of the sweat, tears and occasionally the blood of Patriots. Quick, go paraphrase him again to explain what this really means. View Quote Do you need a picture of a bunny with a pancake on it's head? |
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No, you called me a "fanboi" because I knew who he was, and claimed that only "fanbois" pay attention to who the top competition shooters are, and implied that I only knew him from being a fanboi, as opposed to the reality of having shot with him a number of times, had dinner with him several times, and know his wife and kids (heck, I'm the one who told John Ringo to send a manuscript to him to review the long-range shooting scenes). You blew him off as "some retired E-7" then made a statement that you know more retired E-7's than I do, so you win the appeals to authority, to which I pointed out that I wasn't appealing to authority, the authority had posted in the thread himself. I had avoided mentioning him until he posted, as I know he usually has more interesting things to do than see what kind of retarded shit idiots come up with on ARFCOM (unless he's bored, then it gets amusing). View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You must have missed the thread where he blew off one of the top long range shooters and coaches in the world as "just some AMU guy". |
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Are you such a shallow thinker you believe these two statements are unable to coexist? Do you need a picture of a bunny with a pancake on it's head? View Quote "I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments." Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase. |
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That's Service Rifle, which was designed in the early 20th century. Its a sport, not combat training. It stopped being combat training back when the respective branches (Army after WWII, Marine Corps after 2001) stopped expecting people to fight that way in combat and revamped their marksmanship programs. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. US Army TC 3-22.9 Page 98 shows how to stand when shooting standing |
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No, I need you to admit you're wrong about me and what you claimed. Plain and simple. "I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments." Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase. View Quote |
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There is an up to date Official US Army TC 3-22.9 that clearly shows the US Army Official Standing Position. US Army TC 3-22.9 Page 98 shows how to stand when shooting standing View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. US Army TC 3-22.9 Page 98 shows how to stand when shooting standing |
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But just for you, bro ... save this so you can use it in the next Appleseed thread. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/188713/pancake-bunny-289306.JPG View Quote Yeah, I liberty. You should give it a try to some day. |
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Do I realize that by the Constitution and US code, all citizens are members of the militia? Yes. because in the post you replied to I wrote this: "which is great, more needs to be done, we shouldn't be pissing ourselves for doing what the Constitution says we are supposed to do, form in militias" And I copied and pasted this from Appleseed websites: "We are the descendants of those fearless men and women who earned our freedom on the battlefield. We honor their pursuit of liberty by passing along the skills and knowledge that aided them in securing it. We'll help each other gain the skills and equipment needed to defend our country, if the need arises. but the natural right of every person that must be vigilantly guarded at the cost of the sweat, tears and occasionally the blood of Patriots." You believe none of this has anything to do with militia? You believe at Lexington and Concord random dudes showed up and weren't militia? Do you believe that Patriots shedding bled is referencing more random dudes and not militia? Do you pretend that earning freedom on the battlefield didn't mean combat? I know you believe it, but for some strange reason, maybe you're afraid of the Left or think the ATF will shut shit down because you utter the word militia, but the founders of Appleseed flaunts it as does whomever wrote their official website. Its about Regulating Militia, turning Citizens into Riflemen. To ready them to defend their nation. That's is blatantly spelled out in the paragraphs I copied and pasted from their own websites. This isn't a hit on them either, nor are they wackos. The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting and neither is Appleseed. Its not about hobby shooting and neither is Appleseed. Nor should we make believe otherwise. Especially right now, there hasn't been a more important time for American militia since the mid 19th century. We're about to go head over ass into a new civil war against the same leftist that Fred fucking Dailey warned us all about for decades in Shotgun News. I have no problems at all with Appleseed training a whole generation of new Americans to shoot foreign or domestic enemies. I just would like them to learn it with modern technique that are a bit more efficient than some of the old fashioned dogma that Fred Dailey pushed. View Quote |
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I shit on shitty marksmanship training because this is a supposedly a gun board, but I guess we're only supposed to discuss trannies and beans. In the world's largest gun board clearly the SOP is to ridicule what even the US Army's AMU teaches now. We should laugh at every lesson learned since 1907. We should shit all over all the professional trainers who taught people how to shoot since the GWOT started, none of whom try to replicate what Dailey teaches. All because the cult expects it. After all, the fundamentals of marksmanship can only be learned with a sling... FYI, Fred Dailey's Army Qualification Test (AQT), which is the course of fire he was pimping in Shotgun News for years that he ripped off from the US Army from back in the day before he formalized his thing into a 503(c) organization, only teaches shooting out to 400 not 500 yards. I'm out of my element? I mean you jumped into the dogpile to ridicule me, I'm just saying you should know more about Appleseed than I do. Oh yeah, feel free to IM me your email address, I'll forward you my latest DD214 and then you judge me whether I'm a coward. View Quote |
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But it's not "shitty marksmanship trading." Its decent fundamentals training. View Quote The use of a shooting sling is a niche skill useful only in competitions that forbid proper shooting form and specifically allow shooting slings as aids. |
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There is nothing fundamental in the shooting sling and it's use. The use of a shooting sling is a niche skill useful only in competitions that forbid proper shooting form and specifically allow shooting slings as aids. View Quote |
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No, I need you to admit you're wrong about me and what you claimed. Plain and simple. "I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments." Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase. |
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No, I need you to admit you're wrong about me and what you claimed. Plain and simple. "I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments." Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Are you such a shallow thinker you believe these two statements are unable to coexist? Do you need a picture of a bunny with a pancake on it's head? "I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments." Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase. |
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I was taught exactly that as a Marine rifleman in 1986 as were generations of Marines before me. Using the sling is a fundamental rifleman skill that goes back to the matchlock View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There is nothing fundamental in the shooting sling and it's use. The use of a shooting sling is a niche skill useful only in competitions that forbid proper shooting form and specifically allow shooting slings as aids. Modern shooters have no need to learn how to operate a matchlock outside of niche competitions requiring matchlocks. The sling is not a "fundamental" because a shooter never need learn the sling nor how to use one yet still could be very successful in general field shooting. Proper stance is "fundamental". Proper trigger manipulation is "fundamental". Using the shooting sling is an advanced niche technique of limited value. Only in niche specialized competitions is the use of a sling as a shooting aid required learning to do well. Some of us applaud the Appleseed Project while questioning the course of fire. I would go so far as to say if the goal is to create citizen riflemen then teaching a course of fire using the sling as a shooting aid is counterproductive. When the time comes to make a real deal shot in the field you won't have time to sling up, I have seen it. I don't think a single person in this thread has not expressed appreciation of Appleseed on a whole, a few have just questioned the course of fire. |
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You were criticizing them about seeming to be promoting "militias." I was setting you straight. If you have no problem about them training militias, why were you bitching about it? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
You were criticizing them about seeming to be promoting "militias." I was setting you straight. If you have no problem about them training militias, why were you bitching about it? What got this bullshit rolling was when everyone attempted to plea down Appleseed as only a sporting marksmanship training class with a bit of American history/civics with it, as if that was why it was okay to use old techniques as fundamentals. If that your argument its bullshit. I wrote how many times now that the AQT that Dailey copy and pasted came from a mid century CMP course of fire based on US Army marksmanship techniques that date back to back when the Garand was the standard issue service rifle and the Army was still issuing Garand Slings and was expecting shooters to sling up for hits. I've stated repeatedly that the techniques were never popularized as a method of teaching fundamentals when they were still actual military qual, that was just how you were supposed to shoot, how the military brass literally expected their riflemen to fire their rifles in combat. It was only when the techniques were rendered combat obsolete, when the services revamped training and replaced it newer techniques more applicable to real combat, that the "Mah fundamentals" got suggestion started. I know, because I used to be one of them that repeated that, I used to shoot CMP competitively back in the day, Service Rifle and Pistol. And I was wrong then too. I stated this fact, that Appleseed is militant in focus and then mentioned militia in this context (first three mentions of the word militia in the entire thread): Chill the fuck out. This is a topic about a marksmanship academy orientated around the mythos of the American militia riflemen coming with it a two day course designed around shooting .22 rifles at 25 meters. You need to realize I didn't call your mother a bad name.
... In its context Appleseed references militia riflemen while promoting an ethos of civic nationalism, WHICH IS FUCKING AWESOME. ... We should eagerly slay the sacred cows of a outdated shooting sports whose techniques date back to 1907 and enter the 21st century if it means American militia riflemen are actually ready to at least know how to use their weapons in real scenarios. I'm just talking about teaching newbies how to shoot with rifles in the most up to date method to the best prepare them for combat related scenarios in the shortest and least costly manner. Militia is not a negative word to me, I don't associate it with extremists unless all good citizens believing in civic duty are extremists. But I don't freak out thinking the HRT is going to fast rope into my living room for acknowledging that all able bodied Americans are part of a civil defense pact called a militia. Ken read into all that shit I wrote because he is evidently professional associated with Appleseed Project, a 503(c) charity who in no way, shape, or form legally associated with any militia, real or imagined, or any other form of right wing extremism. But it does have to do with military themed shooting because the Appleseed qual is just Dailey's Army Qualification Test with a new name. Same thing, new name change, new image, old idea. Create a large foundation of American citizens that are patriotic, who understand civics, and who are qualified in a military themed shooting competition (though that qual is old and obsolete IMO). From that point onwards first an overly defensive Ken tried to read me the riot act, Raf followed up next, then you got on board, and then numerous others since then. But it was never about the militia or me shitting on them. And trust me, I care so little for your stupid club I had no idea the controversy surrounding it being associated with all those extremist right wing militia types who believe in the Supreme Court definition of the 2nd Amendment and Militia Clause. Or is it unpatriot now to mention that too? Because evidently we're not allowed to say militia anymore, guess I didn't get that memo. Everything I wrote can be summed up in this: The current course of fire and technique taught for the AQT/Appleseed Qual should be relocated to the land of the Plunkett Position, because while it can be used to teach fundamentals (which can be taught with any rifle in any position), there are better and more modern and applicable techniques to do so, especially considering limited time. Controversial, huh? Evidently its dangerous to go onto the biggest gun forum in America and recommend updating a marksmanship program past 1910. Should have stuck with trannies and beans, because then I wont be slaying sacred cows like "mah loop sling is fundamentals!" |
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I haven't had the balls to attend either I do like finding my NPOA though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjycj3I9_dQ First target at 177, last at 425. Ironically I hit the 425 as many times as the 177 I think. Eta, this rifle was zeroed -1.25 at 25 yards and never confirmed past that https://youtu.be/FP6klVmpAns 14.5" pencil bbl |
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But it's not "shitty marksmanship trading." Its decent fundamentals training. View Quote |
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Again, not speaking officially, I think you are over-stating your original point, and have now begun to embarrass yourself. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Are you such a shallow thinker you believe these two statements are unable to coexist? Do you need a picture of a bunny with a pancake on it's head? "I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments." Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase. Chill the fuck out. This is a topic about a marksmanship academy orientated around the mythos of the American militia riflemen coming with it a two day course designed around shooting .22 rifles at 25 meters. You need to realize I didn't call your mother a bad name.
... In its context Appleseed references militia riflemen while promoting an ethos of civic nationalism, WHICH IS FUCKING AWESOME. ... We should eagerly slay the sacred cows of a outdated shooting sports whose techniques date back to 1907 and enter the 21st century if it means American militia riflemen are actually ready to at least know how to use their weapons in real scenarios. I'm just talking about teaching newbies how to shoot with rifles in the most up to date method to the best prepare them for combat related scenarios in the shortest and least costly manner. Shit, I'm quite fond of what I wrote. The ghost of Thomas Jefferson would have patted me on the head and said "Nice job!" But evidently my comments are verboten on arfcom, because the Left doesn't like the word militia and we're not supposed to use it anymore, because liberty means being terrified of the left. |
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I guess those that are more operator than I can crap on the Appleseed program, but speaking as someone who is rapidly approaching the half century mark and didn't own a centerfire rifle until 2012, I've found the courses to be a great value for fundamentals. No, not tactical shooting, and the instructors made that point very clear. I was also very proud to see my youngest earn his Rifleman patch a couple of weeks ago at his second Appleseed. His hat just arrived today. http://i.imgur.com/mdx5wYs.jpg View Quote Nobody crapped on Appleseed, nobody. Some of us, in the context of a discussion, feel that the course of fire could be modernized in some respects. |
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I wasn't the one bitching about militias, Ken was when I mentioned it in the first place. Militia has no negative spin to me, its a positive word that is synonymous with patriotic, duty, and honor to America. What got this bullshit rolling was when everyone attempted to plea down Appleseed as only a sporting marksmanship training class with a bit of American history/civics with it, as if that was why it was okay to use old techniques as fundamentals. If that your argument its bullshit. I wrote how many times now that the AQT that Dailey copy and pasted came from a mid century CMP course of fire based on US Army marksmanship techniques that date back to back when the Garand was the standard issue service rifle and the Army was still issuing Garand Slings and was expecting shooters to sling up for hits. I've stated repeatedly that the techniques were never popularized as a method of teaching fundamentals when they were still actual military qual, that was just how you were supposed to shoot, how the military brass literally expected their riflemen to fire their rifles in combat. It was only when the techniques were rendered combat obsolete, when the services revamped training and replaced it newer techniques more applicable to real combat, that the "Mah fundamentals" got suggestion started. I know, because I used to be one of them that repeated that, I used to shoot CMP competitively back in the day, Service Rifle and Pistol. And I was wrong then too. I stated this fact, that Appleseed is militant in focus and then mentioned militia in this context (first three mentions of the word militia in the entire thread): Does any of this at all sound like something CNN would say? Am I a liberal who hates freedom? If you can't come to turns with what I wrote the evidence is right there. Man up because I'm owed a giant apology because that's the context I wrote militia that got Ken to fly off the handle like a maniac. It all originated because of those three quotes. Militia is not a negative word to me, I don't associate it with extremists unless all good citizens believing in civic duty are extremists. But I don't freak out thinking the HRT is going to fast rope into my living room for acknowledging that all able bodied Americans are part of a civil defense pact called a militia. Ken read into all that shit I wrote because he is evidently professional associated with Appleseed Project, a 503(c) charity who in no way, shape, or form legally associated with any militia, real or imagined, or any other form of right wing extremism. But it does have to do with military themed shooting because the Appleseed qual is just Dailey's Army Qualification Test with a new name. Same thing, new name change, new image, old idea. Create a large foundation of American citizens that are patriotic, who understand civics, and who are qualified in a military themed shooting competition (though that qual is old and obsolete IMO). From that point onwards first an overly defensive Ken tried to read me the riot act, Raf followed up next, then you got on board, and then numerous others since then. But it was never about the militia or me shitting on them. And trust me, I care so little for your stupid club I had no idea the controversy surrounding it being associated with all those extremist right wing militia types who believe in the Supreme Court definition of the 2nd Amendment and Militia Clause. Or is it unpatriot now to mention that too? Because evidently we're not allowed to say militia anymore, guess I didn't get that memo. Everything I wrote can be summed up in this: The current course of fire and technique taught for the AQT/Appleseed Qual should be relocated to the land of the Plunkett Position, because while it can be used to teach fundamentals (which can be taught with any rifle in any position), there are better and more modern and applicable techniques to do so, especially considering limited time. Controversial, huh? Evidently its dangerous to go onto the biggest gun forum in America and recommend updating a marksmanship program past 1910. Should have stuck with trannies and beans, because then I wont be slaying sacred cows like "mah loop sling is fundamentals!" View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
I wasn't the one bitching about militias, Ken was when I mentioned it in the first place. Militia has no negative spin to me, its a positive word that is synonymous with patriotic, duty, and honor to America. What got this bullshit rolling was when everyone attempted to plea down Appleseed as only a sporting marksmanship training class with a bit of American history/civics with it, as if that was why it was okay to use old techniques as fundamentals. If that your argument its bullshit. I wrote how many times now that the AQT that Dailey copy and pasted came from a mid century CMP course of fire based on US Army marksmanship techniques that date back to back when the Garand was the standard issue service rifle and the Army was still issuing Garand Slings and was expecting shooters to sling up for hits. I've stated repeatedly that the techniques were never popularized as a method of teaching fundamentals when they were still actual military qual, that was just how you were supposed to shoot, how the military brass literally expected their riflemen to fire their rifles in combat. It was only when the techniques were rendered combat obsolete, when the services revamped training and replaced it newer techniques more applicable to real combat, that the "Mah fundamentals" got suggestion started. I know, because I used to be one of them that repeated that, I used to shoot CMP competitively back in the day, Service Rifle and Pistol. And I was wrong then too. I stated this fact, that Appleseed is militant in focus and then mentioned militia in this context (first three mentions of the word militia in the entire thread): Does any of this at all sound like something CNN would say? Am I a liberal who hates freedom? If you can't come to turns with what I wrote the evidence is right there. Man up because I'm owed a giant apology because that's the context I wrote militia that got Ken to fly off the handle like a maniac. It all originated because of those three quotes. Militia is not a negative word to me, I don't associate it with extremists unless all good citizens believing in civic duty are extremists. But I don't freak out thinking the HRT is going to fast rope into my living room for acknowledging that all able bodied Americans are part of a civil defense pact called a militia. Ken read into all that shit I wrote because he is evidently professional associated with Appleseed Project, a 503(c) charity who in no way, shape, or form legally associated with any militia, real or imagined, or any other form of right wing extremism. But it does have to do with military themed shooting because the Appleseed qual is just Dailey's Army Qualification Test with a new name. Same thing, new name change, new image, old idea. Create a large foundation of American citizens that are patriotic, who understand civics, and who are qualified in a military themed shooting competition (though that qual is old and obsolete IMO). From that point onwards first an overly defensive Ken tried to read me the riot act, Raf followed up next, then you got on board, and then numerous others since then. But it was never about the militia or me shitting on them. And trust me, I care so little for your stupid club I had no idea the controversy surrounding it being associated with all those extremist right wing militia types who believe in the Supreme Court definition of the 2nd Amendment and Militia Clause. Or is it unpatriot now to mention that too? Because evidently we're not allowed to say militia anymore, guess I didn't get that memo. Everything I wrote can be summed up in this: The current course of fire and technique taught for the AQT/Appleseed Qual should be relocated to the land of the Plunkett Position, because while it can be used to teach fundamentals (which can be taught with any rifle in any position), there are better and more modern and applicable techniques to do so, especially considering limited time. Controversial, huh? Evidently its dangerous to go onto the biggest gun forum in America and recommend updating a marksmanship program past 1910. Should have stuck with trannies and beans, because then I wont be slaying sacred cows like "mah loop sling is fundamentals!" .. Quoted:
Congrats to your son, well done. Nobody crapped on Appleseed, nobody. Some of us, in the context of a discussion, feel that the course of fire could be modernized in some respects. |
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Steady position, aiming, breathing, trigger control. These are the fundamentals. Are you suggesting prone cocked leg, crossed ankle sitting, and standing chicken wing, with hasty or loop sling for all, are the best way to learn the fundamentals? It may be how some learned it, maybe how you learned it, but in 2017 I think the members of the largest gun forum in the country can acknowledge that there might be better and more advanced methods available that wont require retraining in support aids, positions, and other very applicable CMP style techniques that all date back to a century ago. View Quote |
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That you call the offhand position, one that I first learned in the Marines, as a "standing chicken wing" shows that you don't understand marksmanship fundamentals. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
That you call the offhand position, one that I first learned in the Marines, as a "standing chicken wing" shows that you don't understand marksmanship fundamentals. Quoted:
There is an up to date Official US Army TC 3-22.9 that clearly shows the US Army Official Standing Position. US Army TC 3-22.9 Page 98 shows how to stand when shooting standing Therefore they teach a more universally useful position. Which maybe a bunch of appleseed newb1s would benefit from too. |
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Does Appleseed still Ban the MP15-22? Want to go but don't have a 10-22 nor want to shoot a AR.
Seems stupid to me. |
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Everything I wrote can be summed up in this: The current course of fire and technique taught for the AQT/Appleseed Qual should be relocated to the land of the Plunkett Position, because while it can be used to teach fundamentals (which can be taught with any rifle in any position), there are better and more modern and applicable techniques to do so, especially considering limited time. Controversial, huh? Evidently its dangerous to go onto the biggest gun forum in America and recommend updating a marksmanship program past 1910. Should have stuck with trannies and beans, because then I wont be slaying sacred cows like "mah loop sling is fundamentals!" View Quote I get what you were doing and agree that some parts of the course of instruction could be modernized. That'll happen with time. No it's not perfect but it's the best thing out there so we get down in the dirt and slog away while looking for how to do it better. I was serious when I invited you to do one. With a background in competition and the Marines you'll probably do well. Get inside the program and help improve it instead of just saying it needs changed. |
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No, because the Marine Corps taught us it would cause a catastrophic jam. It was up there with walking on the grass, or having your hands in your pockets. YOU JUST DIDN'T DO IT. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Were you allowed to ground the magazine on the deck? Appleseed encourages marksmanship, and for that deserves accolades. However, in my limited observations, it was heavily biased towards creating a false valuation and false confidence amongst shooters using rimfire rifles at what are effectively handgun distances. The very core of the scoring system is based on a favoritism towards a caliber (.22LR) that is fundamentally incapable of being used in s true marksmanship context. |
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That's Service Rifle, which was designed in the early 20th century. Its a sport, not combat training. It stopped being combat training back when the respective branches (Army after WWII, Marine Corps after 2001) stopped expecting people to fight that way in combat and revamped their marksmanship programs. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. |
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When teaching boots what does the Army teach? The Marines? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted. US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine Page 98 hits standing. |
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I posted this earlier. The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted. US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine Page 98 hits standing. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted. US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine Page 98 hits standing. breathing, and other natural activities within the body will be transferred to the weapon and must be compensated for by the shooter. 6-31. Failing to create an effective platform to fire from is termed a stabilization failure. A stabilization failure occurs when a Soldier fails to: Control the movement of the barrel during the arc of movement Adequately support the weapon system Achieve their natural point of aim. Sure wish there was a way to increase stability when standing when I don't have access to door jambs, trees, etc. Or legs Oh the nos a tight sling |
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