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Posted: 8/24/2017 11:02:28 PM EDT
[#1]
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6-30. When a shooter assumes a stable firing position, movement from muscle tension, breathing, and other natural activities within the body will be transferred to the weapon and must be compensated for by the shooter. 6-31. Failing to create an effective platform to fire from is termed a stabilization failure. A stabilization failure occurs when a Soldier fails to: Control the movement of the barrel during the arc of movement Adequately support the weapon system Achieve their natural point of aim. Sure wish there was a way to increase stability when standing when I don't have access to door jambs, trees, etc. Or legs https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/23/74/9b2374c73003483dc912e9cf172b1eb9.jpg Oh the nos a tight sling https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Marine-with-FN-M16A4-and-ACOG.jpg You need to learn what a real deal shooting sling is. Hasty sling is not real deal shooting sling. Just because you found some picts on the web of shooters not using proper technique does not validate using improper technique. What hits are these shooters getting using poor technique? None? A few? Who cares? It's not like we don't have real deal shooting comps that prove shooting slings are second rate shooting aids, at best. When the rules don't specifically favor a sling nobody who wins uses a shooting sling. Just Sayin. 
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Posted: 8/25/2017 12:01:26 AM EDT
[#2]
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It's not like we don't have real deal shooting comps that prove shooting slings are second rate shooting aids, at best. When the rules don't specifically favor a sling nobody who wins uses a shooting sling. Just Sayin. The few examples by Patchouli and others in this thread of matches that forced shooters out of their comfort range like obstacles that are too high for a bipod or a PRS stage that makes knee and elbow bags impractical see most shooters struggle as they lack the basic fundamentals (there's that word) to hold their rifle still enough without a bipod or bag to make hits at medium distances. A sling adds no weight to a rifle since it'll have one anyway and is not an additional snag hazard nor does it take up valuable estate on a handguard. If it's suitable to use as a shooting aid because of a long shot then it's there. If it's not needed to take the shot then it's not extra crap on the rifle. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 12:17:32 AM EDT
[#3]
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I don't care how much you had dinner with some competition shooter or know John Ringo. Neither impresses me in the least and that you are their groupie impresses me in the least. My issues with you in the last thread was that you, not your comp buddy or John Ringo, YOU have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to combat marksmanship because you don't train, you play a sport. You're out of your element donnie. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must have missed the thread where he blew off one of the top long range shooters and coaches in the world as "just some AMU guy". The entire context of bringing him up is that one of your claims was that you have service rifle competition experience - yet you didn't recognize one of the most recognizable names in service rifle competition. That's like a smallbore shooter who doesn't know who Lenny Bassham or Lones Wigger are. You constantly shit on high power rifle and service rifle competition, but what have YOU done to bring new shooters in and promote marksmanship training? How many training courses have you run? How many competitions? How many range events? If you've got this grand scheme for how to produce better combat marksmen, what have you done to implement it? Or are you just going to sit on the sidelines and bitch and denigrate those who are actually out there bringing new shooters in and promoting gun knowledge and interest among people who may not have previously used them? |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 12:36:29 AM EDT
[#4]
I think knowing how to properly use a sling is just another tool in the tool box.
I routinely shot 198s with a high X count at 600 yards with a Space Gun, irons and a loop sling. I have shot game in the field looped up with a 1907......elk, coyotes, small game, etc.... I once asked prolific big game hunter Wayne van Zwoll if he ever looped up in the field and he said he'd shot the vast majority of animals that way. I think NRA High Power can be a useful tool, to a point. That said... If all you are taught is a loop sling, then you try to use it for everything when there are much better ways. I also think that once you get past the Expert level in High Power it is more about the game and less about useful techniques. It can also give you very bad habits. There is much to be said for modern methods of building solid positions using whatever is available. In the field hits are what counts, there are no rules that say you can do this but you can't do this, that or that. You need to be able to quickly identify what is the fastest way to make the hit and do it. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 12:49:06 AM EDT
[#5]
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Wonder how many Marines died needlessly over the years because they failed to get a stable enough platform to make the hit on a bad guy before the opposite happened? All because of strict mindless adherence to "that's how it's always been done!" marksmanship training. Appleseed encourages marksmanship, and for that deserves accolades. However, in my limited observations, it was heavily biased towards creating a false valuation and false confidence amongst shooters using rimfire rifles at what are effectively handgun distances. The very core of the scoring system is based on a favoritism towards a caliber (.22LR) that is fundamentally incapable of being used in s true marksmanship context. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 7:39:23 AM EDT
[#6]
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I've shot Appleseeds with both a 10/22 and an AR15. Both guns made the same sized hole in the target, but one was considerably cheaper to feed for the weekend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wonder how many Marines died needlessly over the years because they failed to get a stable enough platform to make the hit on a bad guy before the opposite happened? All because of strict mindless adherence to "that's how it's always been done!" marksmanship training. Appleseed encourages marksmanship, and for that deserves accolades. However, in my limited observations, it was heavily biased towards creating a false valuation and false confidence amongst shooters using rimfire rifles at what are effectively handgun distances. The very core of the scoring system is based on a favoritism towards a caliber (.22LR) that is fundamentally incapable of being used in s true marksmanship context. What I observed in my limited interactions with Appleseed is that the vast majority of shooters are being brought up to think that being quick and accurate with a 10/22 at 25 yards makes them combat accurate in a real fight. Appleseed does not profess to teach tactical shooting, but it heavily implies a historical tactical element. In reality, many aspects of the training are less than ideal if you're teaching fundamentals that are intended to form building blocks for tactical shooting skills. Rigid and dogmatic adherence to the appearance of a proper position is counterproductive when it comes time to take a shot from an improvised rest or under some weird-ass field placement. Teaching stability first and foremost should take precedence over the classic positions, particularly in a day and age where the student might be of any size, weight, build, or gender. This idealized training was drafted up a century past to indoctrinate men recruited in to shoot a combat rifle which is 4 or 5 generations out of date from current use; the idea that maybe some of the doctrines are obsolete shouldn't exactly be a shock to anyone who isn't heavily emotionally vested in continuing to shoot in a specific way. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 7:51:11 AM EDT
[#7]
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Yes, I qualified expert every time. Even in 20+ mph winds, out to a real 500M. You can't "simulate" that with small Appleseed targets. But like I said, this isn't about me. There are lots of shooters out there better than I, who also won't benefit from an Appleseed. If you will, then have fun. Just don't claim that it will make anyone better. That's cool. But try to remember to keep your anyones and everyones separate as it muddies the debate a bit. 
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Posted: 8/25/2017 7:56:58 AM EDT
[#8]
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Where are these "full distance" Appleseeds? I've only seen them at 25, even on a range with 600 available. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 8:00:03 AM EDT
[#9]
After scanning this page I have to read the whole thread to find the PRS shooters that drag a sack full of pillows across the range.
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Posted: 8/25/2017 8:35:34 AM EDT
[#10]
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Does Appleseed still Ban the MP15-22? Want to go but don't have a 10-22 nor want to shoot a AR. Seems stupid to me. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:40:43 AM EDT
[#11]
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Oh the Noes. You need to learn what a real deal shooting sling is. Hasty sling is not real deal shooting sling. Just because you found some picts on the web of shooters not using proper technique does not validate using improper technique. What hits are these shooters getting using poor technique? None? A few? Who cares? It's not like we don't have real deal shooting comps that prove shooting slings are second rate shooting aids, at best. When the rules don't specifically favor a sling nobody who wins uses a shooting sling. Just Sayin. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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6-30. When a shooter assumes a stable firing position, movement from muscle tension, breathing, and other natural activities within the body will be transferred to the weapon and must be compensated for by the shooter. 6-31. Failing to create an effective platform to fire from is termed a stabilization failure. A stabilization failure occurs when a Soldier fails to: Control the movement of the barrel during the arc of movement Adequately support the weapon system Achieve their natural point of aim. Sure wish there was a way to increase stability when standing when I don't have access to door jambs, trees, etc. Or legs https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/23/74/9b2374c73003483dc912e9cf172b1eb9.jpg Oh the nos a tight sling https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Marine-with-FN-M16A4-and-ACOG.jpg You need to learn what a real deal shooting sling is. Hasty sling is not real deal shooting sling. Just because you found some picts on the web of shooters not using proper technique does not validate using improper technique. What hits are these shooters getting using poor technique? None? A few? Who cares? It's not like we don't have real deal shooting comps that prove shooting slings are second rate shooting aids, at best. When the rules don't specifically favor a sling nobody who wins uses a shooting sling. Just Sayin. I've used tight slings in the field to steady shots since I started hunting as a kid. I've also used them to steady my weapon in combat and had others around me do the same. I'm saying that learning a skill that involves gear you're already carrying is a good thing. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:50:18 AM EDT
[#12]
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Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc. No squaring off to target for body armor. Anything else? 
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:59:55 AM EDT
[#13]
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I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed.  
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Posted: 8/25/2017 10:16:28 AM EDT
[#14]
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IIRC, the M&P15-22 was banned for safety reasons due to ???? Was it out of battery firing or doubling? ETA: and my M&P 15-22 is not near accurate enough to think about using at Appleseed. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:23:04 AM EDT
[#15]
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All well and fine (although these days the price gap between the two has sadly narrowed far more than in past years). But the mere fact that there are no scoring distinctions made between rimfire and centerfire, in a timed positional shooting event, is a blatant endorsement of .22LR over any of the viable centerfire calibers we might realistically use in a military, LE, or defensive scenario. What I observed in my limited interactions with Appleseed is that the vast majority of shooters are being brought up to think that being quick and accurate with a 10/22 at 25 yards makes them combat accurate in a real fight. Appleseed does not profess to teach tactical shooting, but it heavily implies a historical tactical element. In reality, many aspects of the training are less than ideal if you're teaching fundamentals that are intended to form building blocks for tactical shooting skills. Rigid and dogmatic adherence to the appearance of a proper position is counterproductive when it comes time to take a shot from an improvised rest or under some weird-ass field placement. Teaching stability first and foremost should take precedence over the classic positions, particularly in a day and age where the student might be of any size, weight, build, or gender. This idealized training was drafted up a century past to indoctrinate men recruited in to shoot a combat rifle which is 4 or 5 generations out of date from current use; the idea that maybe some of the doctrines are obsolete shouldn't exactly be a shock to anyone who isn't heavily emotionally vested in continuing to shoot in a specific way. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:28:18 AM EDT
[#16]
This thread makes me daydream about a bunch of multicam clad gunshop commandos standing on the firing line telling dads and kids with 10/22's trying to enjoy a low key entry level marksmanship course about how it's not real life enough and will get them killed on the streets.
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:38:27 AM EDT
[#17]
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This thread makes me daydream about a bunch of multicam clad gunshop commandos standing on the firing line telling dads and kids with 10/22's trying to enjoy a low key entry level marksmanship course about how it's not real life enough and will get them killed on the streets. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:42:32 AM EDT
[#18]
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I would appreciate being shown where, in any of the Appleseed literature and/or website(s), the intent of Appleseed to teach "Combat Marksmanship" to anyone, including Newbies, is stated. As one who has attended an Appleseed, I can say for a certainty that the word "militia" was only mentioned once or twice, and that in direct reference to the Colonial era. Appleseed is not, and AFAIK never has been about training a modern day militia. It is what it is, a good basic marksmanship course, and it has always been that. FWIW, due to my age, I shot the AQT with an old 1-3X Weaver scope. The Instructors had no problems with that, nor did I hear of anyone using other optics, such as RDS, having issues with the Instructors about their sights. Unless it's shooting up Heroin, jumping off a bridge, or something equally personally destructive, I think unwise to criticize, at length, something with which one has no, or very limited, experience. The whole point is to bring back basic rifleman skills that contributed to defeating the British. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:43:37 AM EDT
[#19]
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You do realize that by the Constitution and US code, all citizens are members of the militia? Yes? Other than an appeal to tradition and heritage, I don't see much "milita" about what was written. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:44:28 AM EDT
[#20]
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So after posting this and looking at my old thread about appleseed, and remembering how much i hated seated position and could never find a stable position, I have been practicing it each night (dryfire). Still feels horrible. What I don't like is my legs splay outward and droop the rifle. Then I exert tension to keep them together and the tension ruins my hold. The rifle feels like it cants downward and I have to crane my head and neck to get back on target. Sooo anyway, I just did it again now, and I came up with a brilliant idea. Took my belt off and slung up my legs. They just rest against the belt and rem9ve all body tension. I can just set the elbows against the legs like a bipod. So can I use this patchouli leg sling technique at Appleseed? |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 12:27:06 PM EDT
[#21]
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Well the sling is a competition shooting aid. When the rules require it's use or forbid other, more effective techniques, slinging up is just the ticket. In the real world the shooting sling is not that useful. Just Sayin. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no sniper, but I can tell you for Cola Warrior West, I intentionally set up my rifle targets so people with a bipod find it impossible to use. Old school sitting with proper sling usage for the win. Fundamentals are called fundamentals for a reason. When the rules require it's use or forbid other, more effective techniques, slinging up is just the ticket. In the real world the shooting sling is not that useful. Just Sayin. You obviously don't want to use a sling....so don't. Show up at Cola Warrior West and let's see what you've got.
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Posted: 8/25/2017 1:45:56 PM EDT
[#22]
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In the Appleseed I attended, they said: "A rifleman is expected to hit the enemy's head at 400 yards with an off-the-shelf military small arm." The whole point is to bring back basic rifleman skills that contributed to defeating the British. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would appreciate being shown where, in any of the Appleseed literature and/or website(s), the intent of Appleseed to teach "Combat Marksmanship" to anyone, including Newbies, is stated. As one who has attended an Appleseed, I can say for a certainty that the word "militia" was only mentioned once or twice, and that in direct reference to the Colonial era. Appleseed is not, and AFAIK never has been about training a modern day militia. It is what it is, a good basic marksmanship course, and it has always been that. FWIW, due to my age, I shot the AQT with an old 1-3X Weaver scope. The Instructors had no problems with that, nor did I hear of anyone using other optics, such as RDS, having issues with the Instructors about their sights. Unless it's shooting up Heroin, jumping off a bridge, or something equally personally destructive, I think unwise to criticize, at length, something with which one has no, or very limited, experience. The whole point is to bring back basic rifleman skills that contributed to defeating the British.
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Posted: 8/25/2017 2:41:25 PM EDT
[#23]
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In the Appleseed I attended, they said: "A rifleman is expected to hit the enemy's head at 400 yards with an off-the-shelf military small arm." The whole point is to bring back basic rifleman skills that contributed to defeating the British. We can embrace the martial art of riflery without becoming a bunch of multicam wearing Heavy Six militia colonels jerking off in the basement to the apocalypse. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 2:42:32 PM EDT
[#24]
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FWIW, I marched in the Bristol parade as a member of the Artillery Company of Newport Color Guard. I was compelled to forcibly shove, with my musket, a drunk away from the Flag when he rushed at us screaming anti-American oaths. Knocked him on his butt, and stayed for a few seconds to make sure he wasn't in a mood to pursue. I ran back to re-join the color guard, while the crowd cheered. Never expected to have to "Guard" the Colors, but that is what I was there for. Such attacks on the Flag might be more common nowadays, what with the Antifa feeling froggy. It would be a life-changing event for a black-clad, hooded, and masked Antifa type to rush the Flag, and some color guard person accidentally run the guy through with a 18" triangular horse sticker. Mistakes happen.  I never get to do the fun things...
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Posted: 8/25/2017 3:09:31 PM EDT
[#25]
I'll repeat my invitation one more time. Those of you who are critical of the program and think it should modernize should come out and get involved.
If you're within driving distance of Pittsburg, KS I'll waive your entry fee to let you try it out. Be some of that fresh blood every organization needs and help us make improvements in the program after you see what it's really like! My next Appleseed is Oct 21-22. The first 4 rifles on this line are an iron sighted AR, AR w/ACOG, Mosin, & Krebbs AK47. We don't discriminate! 
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Posted: 8/25/2017 4:38:12 PM EDT
[#26]
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I'll repeat my invitation one more time. Those of you who are critical of the program and think it should modernize should come out and get involved. If you're within driving distance of Pittsburg, KS I'll waive your entry fee to let you try it out. Be some of that fresh blood every organization needs and help us make improvements in the program after you see what it's really like! My next Appleseed is Oct 21-22. The first 4 rifles on this line are an iron sighted AR, AR w/ACOG, Mosin, & Krebbs AK47. We don't discriminate! http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Appleseed/IMG_2220.jpg
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Posted: 8/25/2017 6:38:44 PM EDT
[#27]
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I posted this earlier. The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted. US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine Page 98 hits standing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo
This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted. US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine Page 98 hits standing. There were quite a few of us (I retired in dec of 14) that spent years trying to get the powers that be to update everything (nearly from the ground up) because the "authorized training" was about 2 decades behind. I'm glad someone finally jumped on that grenade. The biggest problem is that marksmanship to most commands is nothing more than another green yellow red metric, and it only matters when it's time to ensure that all quail dates and power slides are up to date, Otherwise put those fucking rifles away and go do online training, rape prevention, minority of the month history, or just stand around and applaud people for announcing they are gay. The schools/courses That started coming out of the amu in the 03/4/5 timeframe were a good start, but institutionally motherfuckers were still talking about the "rise and fall of the bullet" and lots of bullshit myths from the mid 70s |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:02:18 PM EDT
[#28]
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Can I get in free to a Texas event if I start criticizing Appleseed? I mean I don't have anything against it really, but I can criticize people for $60. I can put that toward more .308 ammo.
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:31:58 PM EDT
[#29]
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What are guns for afterall. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This thread makes me daydream about a bunch of multicam clad gunshop commandos standing on the firing line telling dads and kids with 10/22's trying to enjoy a low key entry level marksmanship course about how it's not real life enough and will get them killed on the streets. Sucks for you the appleseed shoot you went to wasn't uber tactical enough, maybe instead of complaining about appleseed you should go get some REAL high-speed shit like... frontsight and stop living in false dichotomy land. Or you know watch some nutnfancy videos. I'm sure that will fill the gaps for you that appleseed left. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:54:19 PM EDT
[#30]
My wife and I will be instructing one in Paducah KY tomorrow with the man who wrote the Appleseed manual, DonD.
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Posted: 8/25/2017 10:12:54 PM EDT
[#31]
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I'd like to point out the pub date on that, There were quite a few of us (I retired in dec of 14) that spent years trying to get the powers that be to update everything (nearly from the ground up) because the "authorized training" was about 2 decades behind. I'm glad someone finally jumped on that grenade. The biggest problem is that marksmanship to most commands is nothing more than another green yellow red metric, and it only matters when it's time to ensure that all quail dates and power slides are up to date, Otherwise put those fucking rifles away and go do online training, rape prevention, minority of the month history, or just stand around and applaud people for announcing they are gay. The schools/courses That started coming out of the amu in the 03/4/5 timeframe were a good start, but institutionally motherfuckers were still talking about the "rise and fall of the bullet" and lots of bullshit myths from the mid 70s Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today? AMU Just checking. I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1C80ThoEo
This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals. The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted. US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine Page 98 hits standing. There were quite a few of us (I retired in dec of 14) that spent years trying to get the powers that be to update everything (nearly from the ground up) because the "authorized training" was about 2 decades behind. I'm glad someone finally jumped on that grenade. The biggest problem is that marksmanship to most commands is nothing more than another green yellow red metric, and it only matters when it's time to ensure that all quail dates and power slides are up to date, Otherwise put those fucking rifles away and go do online training, rape prevention, minority of the month history, or just stand around and applaud people for announcing they are gay. The schools/courses That started coming out of the amu in the 03/4/5 timeframe were a good start, but institutionally motherfuckers were still talking about the "rise and fall of the bullet" and lots of bullshit myths from the mid 70s A lot of good info. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 10:56:45 PM EDT
[#32]
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That's it? That's all you're going to articulate is some open ended non-response? I guess that is what guns are for after all, making shallowly thought out posts complaining about narrow focused brands of training because they are not like other brands of training. Sucks for you the appleseed shoot you went to wasn't uber tactical enough, maybe instead of complaining about appleseed you should go get some REAL high-speed shit like... frontsight and stop living in false dichotomy land. Or you know watch some nutnfancy videos. I'm sure that will fill the gaps for you that appleseed left. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 12:08:54 AM EDT
[#33]
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K. I mean what was the actual point of this thread? seeking conformation bias? |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 12:11:10 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 8/26/2017 12:15:45 AM EDT
[#35]
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That's all I got? |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 1:53:31 AM EDT
[#36]
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madcap is mad? That's all I got? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That's all I got? Or do we need social training warriors to seek justice for those who can only attend nothing but appleseed shoots? |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 3:19:21 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 8/26/2017 4:15:23 PM EDT
[#38]
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Just trying to figure out the sudden need for appleseed to be cutting trigger puller training, when it's not much more than a traditional marksmanship program meant to be entry level and easily accessible. Specifically what value is to be gained by changing appleseed vs attending training that provides what people think appleseed should have. What specifically is preventing people from engaging in the open market of training? Or do we need social training warriors to seek justice for those who can only attend nothing but appleseed shoots? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That's all I got? Or do we need social training warriors to seek justice for those who can only attend nothing but appleseed shoots? I suppose the course of fire is as much for the instructors as they probably enjoy teaching that COF. The old style course of fire keeps me from participating as it is not the type of shooting I enjoy. That be said apparently many many shooters do enjoy that type of shooting. I have helped start a Wyoming State level competition that has a COF I find more fun. Wyoming Top 100 Shooting Competition |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 7:15:51 PM EDT
[#39]
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https://youtu.be/087C71k-jPo Their 7 steps to firing the shot are exactly Appleseed's 6 steps to firing the shot except they add "don't flinch" as the 7th step whereas we simply explain that and help shooters get over it by doing drills like Ball & Dummy and Calling the Shot. Here are Appleseed's 6 steps with my improved (I think) explanation over what is in the current instructor manual (and better than that video). As an added bonus we don't teach the use of a quad-pod. The 6 Steps of Firing the Shot (Using Appleseed's list and my definitions) 1. Sight alignment Center the front and rear sights (or reticle) on your eye. Focus on the front sight and your subconscious will automatically center it in the rear sight. 2. Sight picture Place the lined up sights (or scope) on your target. 3. Respiratory pause As you finish exhaling pause at the moment between breathing in and breathing out. 4a. Focus your eye on the front sight 4b. Focus Your Mind on Keeping the Front Sight on the Target A sharp focus on the detail of the front sight will put your rounds on target. 5. Press the trigger straight back Place your trigger finger and hand so that at the moment of release you’re pressing the trigger straight back. Do not squeeze the trigger in slow motion. Use enough strength to cleanly, quickly and smoothly move the trigger as far as it needs to go but no further. Don’t use ten pounds of force when you only need five. 6. Follow through • Hold the trigger back, and • Call Your Shot, which means; take a mental snapshot of where the front sight or the crosshairs were when the shot broke. ETA - Our "stable position" part of it goes into way more depth as we spend a lot of time on each of the positions and how to develop that position for each person's unique body. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 7:28:37 PM EDT
[#40]
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Starting and continuing something as big as Appleseed is hard and a lot of people put in a lot of time. I suppose the course of fire is as much for the instructors as they probably enjoy teaching that COF. The old style course of fire keeps me from participating as it is not the type of shooting I enjoy. That be said apparently many many shooters do enjoy that type of shooting. I have helped start a Wyoming State level competition that has a COF I find more fun. Wyoming Top 100 Shooting Competition Quote HistoryQuoted:
Starting and continuing something as big as Appleseed is hard and a lot of people put in a lot of time. I suppose the course of fire is as much for the instructors as they probably enjoy teaching that COF. The old style course of fire keeps me from participating as it is not the type of shooting I enjoy. That be said apparently many many shooters do enjoy that type of shooting. I have helped start a Wyoming State level competition that has a COF I find more fun. Wyoming Top 100 Shooting Competition Rifle must conform to USPSA Tac Optics division (see page 63).
Start position: First String - 5 Yards, Second String - 10 Yards, Third String - 25 Yards, Fourth String - 50 Yards, Fifth String - 100 Yards, Sixth String - 5 Yards 
Appleseed's COF is what it is because it was started by a guy who wanted something that mimicked High Power/CMP/old school military training stuff and emphasized tighter marksmanship than the few 3 gun type run'n'gun things that were just starting. Appleseed (like everything else) is far from perfect but it's a pretty good start. Not every Appleseed member was a space shuttle door gunner and so lacks the depth of techniques some of arf does in training death dealers in the most modern techniques. I'm not being sarcastic when I say try it out, get involved and help from the inside where you can actually make change. We have a lot of quality folks but need new ideas and new blood. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 9:58:49 PM EDT
[#41]
I would venture to say that most in this thread that are critical of Appleseed have never paid to take the course, and disparage the Appleseed program because they don't believe they could be successful and get a "Rifleman" patch.
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Posted: 8/26/2017 10:09:05 PM EDT
[#42]
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The biggest problem is that marksmanship to most commands is nothing more than another green yellow red metric, and it only matters when it's time to ensure that all quail dates and power slides are up to date, Otherwise put those fucking rifles away and go do online training, rape prevention, minority of the month history, or just stand around and applaud people for announcing they are gay. Fort Monroe tried to get inter unit rifle matches started up again at the 1st ID when she landed there. Holy Crap.....the senior NCOs didn't want any of that shooting stuff going on.....the horror the horror... |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 10:32:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would venture to say that most in this thread that are critical of Appleseed have never paid to take the course, and disparage the Appleseed program because they don't believe they could be successful and get a "Rifleman" patch. I have nothing against Appleseed, but Steinhab raises some valid points, and many here want to just ignore Fred's original program and intent. and the program is not advertised as an "Entry Level" shooting program. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 10:53:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Appleseed is a good program. There are a lot of folks out there that have never learned the fundamentals. Appleseed can cure that. It is also good for a novice. It teaches them to shoot, reload, run their gun safely, and hopefully instills some pride in them as they improve. It really makes a difference for newbies to get this training. Don't forget that shooting is the vehicle Appleseed uses to spread their message about the American Revolution. The shooting part is secondary to that. No course can teach everything. But Appleseed can improve anyone's shooting and the message of Appleseed is increasingly important it seems.
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Posted: 8/26/2017 11:07:28 PM EDT
[#45]
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All well and fine (although these days the price gap between the two has sadly narrowed far more than in past years). But the mere fact that there are no scoring distinctions made between rimfire and centerfire, in a timed positional shooting event, is a blatant endorsement of .22LR over any of the viable centerfire calibers we might realistically use in a military, LE, or defensive scenario. What I observed in my limited interactions with Appleseed is that the vast majority of shooters are being brought up to think that being quick and accurate with a 10/22 at 25 yards makes them combat accurate in a real fight. Appleseed does not profess to teach tactical shooting, but it heavily implies a historical tactical element. In reality, many aspects of the training are less than ideal if you're teaching fundamentals that are intended to form building blocks for tactical shooting skills. Rigid and dogmatic adherence to the appearance of a proper position is counterproductive when it comes time to take a shot from an improvised rest or under some weird-ass field placement. Teaching stability first and foremost should take precedence over the classic positions, particularly in a day and age where the student might be of any size, weight, build, or gender. This idealized training was drafted up a century past to indoctrinate men recruited in to shoot a combat rifle which is 4 or 5 generations out of date from current use; the idea that maybe some of the doctrines are obsolete shouldn't exactly be a shock to anyone who isn't heavily emotionally vested in continuing to shoot in a specific way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wonder how many Marines died needlessly over the years because they failed to get a stable enough platform to make the hit on a bad guy before the opposite happened? All because of strict mindless adherence to "that's how it's always been done!" marksmanship training. Appleseed encourages marksmanship, and for that deserves accolades. However, in my limited observations, it was heavily biased towards creating a false valuation and false confidence amongst shooters using rimfire rifles at what are effectively handgun distances. The very core of the scoring system is based on a favoritism towards a caliber (.22LR) that is fundamentally incapable of being used in s true marksmanship context. What I observed in my limited interactions with Appleseed is that the vast majority of shooters are being brought up to think that being quick and accurate with a 10/22 at 25 yards makes them combat accurate in a real fight. Appleseed does not profess to teach tactical shooting, but it heavily implies a historical tactical element. In reality, many aspects of the training are less than ideal if you're teaching fundamentals that are intended to form building blocks for tactical shooting skills. Rigid and dogmatic adherence to the appearance of a proper position is counterproductive when it comes time to take a shot from an improvised rest or under some weird-ass field placement. Teaching stability first and foremost should take precedence over the classic positions, particularly in a day and age where the student might be of any size, weight, build, or gender. This idealized training was drafted up a century past to indoctrinate men recruited in to shoot a combat rifle which is 4 or 5 generations out of date from current use; the idea that maybe some of the doctrines are obsolete shouldn't exactly be a shock to anyone who isn't heavily emotionally vested in continuing to shoot in a specific way. Shooting at 25 yards w/ a 10/22 and iron sights is not nearly as easy as you might think. Try shooting at 200 yards with a 22 and tell me how easy that is... And yes, I got my patch. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 11:17:13 PM EDT
[#46]
The purpose is to shoot redcoats for your homeland.
That's what they talk about and that's what the drills are set up as. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 11:17:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would venture to say that most in this thread that are critical of Appleseed have never paid to take the course, and disparage the Appleseed program because they don't believe they could be successful and get a "Rifleman" patch. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 11:18:37 PM EDT
[#48]
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The purpose is to shoot redcoats for your homeland. That's what they talk about and that's what the drills are set up as. It's designed to teach basic marksmanship. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 11:27:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've never seen a redcoat in my homeland. Fill me in when you find one. It's designed to teach basic marksmanship. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The purpose is to shoot redcoats for your homeland. That's what they talk about and that's what the drills are set up as. It's designed to teach basic marksmanship. It's the first target used on Day 1. Traditionally, it's shot after telling the story about the massacre on Lexington Green. Historians have debated who fired that first shot... but the men assembled there knew that to raise a musket to the King's Men was equivalent to raising a musket to the king himself. Our forefathers should be honored for risking everything they had and everything they were ever going to have to secure Liberty for their posterity. It's no more complicated than that. |
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Posted: 8/26/2017 11:29:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Our esteemed OP is referring to the Hits Count target, often called the Redcoat target. It's the first target used on Day 1. Traditionally, it's shot after telling the story about the massacre on Lexington Green. Historians have debated who fired that first shot... but the men assembled there knew that to raise a musket to the King's Men was equivalent to raising a musket to the king himself. Our forefathers should be honored for risking everything they had and everything they were ever going to have to secure Liberty for their posterity. It's no more complicated than that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The purpose is to shoot redcoats for your homeland. That's what they talk about and that's what the drills are set up as. It's designed to teach basic marksmanship. It's the first target used on Day 1. Traditionally, it's shot after telling the story about the massacre on Lexington Green. Historians have debated who fired that first shot... but the men assembled there knew that to raise a musket to the King's Men was equivalent to raising a musket to the king himself. Our forefathers should be honored for risking everything they had and everything they were ever going to have to secure Liberty for their posterity. It's no more complicated than that. |
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