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That is crazy to me that a random homeowner can affect whether that line is hot. Seems like there should be some lockout procedure that fail-safes against homeowners doing random shit
I'm not an electrician, but spend a lot of time inside robot/automation cells. Lockout procedures are gospel. You can only count on yourself when it comes to safety procedures.... |
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I have always wondered how a 10k or so generator powers the grid. My well pump kicks on and it about shuts mine off if anything else is on. How do you backfeed the line and not hear the generator is bogged down?
Glad he's alive and hope he has a good recovery. No excuse not to have a disconnect switch. |
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Quoted: Not according to Websters. "Killed or severely injured" View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Relieved to read he's not actually dead. Electrocuted = dead. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but you may want to rephrase to shocked or zapped or something. Not according to Websters. "Killed or severely injured" Woke Webster likes to view our language as "evolving" when people are misusing words. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/electrocute electrocute [ ih-lek-truh-kyoot ] verb (used with object), e·lec·tro·cut·ed, e·lec·tro·cut·ing. to kill by electricity. to execute (a criminal) by electricity, as in an electric chair. |
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Quoted: That is crazy to me that a random homeowner can affect whether that line is hot. Seems like there should be some lockout procedure that fail-safes against homeowners doing random shit I'm not an electrician, but spend a lot of time inside robot/automation cells. Lockout procedures are gospel. You can only count on yourself when it comes to safety procedures.... View Quote Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. |
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Quoted: Power comes in on a wire. Power can go out on the same wire unless some physical breaker/switch/interlock is thrown in between the house and the rest of the power grid. Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. View Quote Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? |
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Even old panels or panels that dont work for transfer switches @beerslayer can be safely done with a new transfer panel. Basically a sub panel with 2 feeds inter locked, one from the gen, one from the main panel. Then you relocate the circuits you want to the transfer panel.
This is ideal as if done properly you can just hit the breakers and whats in the panel works. It does not fed everything in the house, just what circuits you move to the transfer panel, Mine has my well, kitchen and living lights and plugs, bedroom, sump pump, fridge plus a few other others. Most houses you can live pretty normal with 5-7 circuits. The good thing about this, and I just went thru it from a storm. When the main power comes back on, all the stuff that was not working started to. I was not home when the power came back, the wife called me and said the stove power just beeped ( gas stove ) saying power loss. Which meant the power was back ( just how it happened to work in my set up ) |
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Quoted: I have always wondered how a 10k or so generator powers the grid. My well pump kicks on and it about shuts mine off if anything else is on. How do you backfeed the line and not hear the generator is bogged down? Glad he's alive and hope he has a good recovery. No excuse not to have a disconnect switch. View Quote The impedance of the transformer may not normally allow full flow out, but enough to put a charge on the line. Now if your neighbors are on the same transformer they will get your power, as they are attached to the same terminals in the transformer and they should make it blow. |
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Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. View Quote ...guy was a total douche-canoe. |
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Quoted: The problem is that they can check and find the lines dead. But someone can fire up a generator and back feed at any time. View Quote Happened to one of our guys years ago - he was DRT. |
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Quoted: It not only doesn't meet code, but it can result in what happened in the OP. Don't do it. Get a transfer switch. All humans error. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. |
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Quoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? View Quote I live in a very rural area adjacent to the national forest. When I moved here 25 years ago a number of poles in the national forest still had glass insulators. Progress is slow in a number of areas. |
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Sucks for the lineman. Homeowner should be in jail and have the main to his house permanently disconnected.
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Quoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Power comes in on a wire. Power can go out on the same wire unless some physical breaker/switch/interlock is thrown in between the house and the rest of the power grid. Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? They would have to lock out every house. What they do is ground all the wires together. If someone back feeds, it will blow fuses. |
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Quoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. This |
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Quoted: the layout of my panel doesn't lend itself to lock switch. i use physical breaker locks and have a checklist taped to the door to use before switching over. the breaker for the genset NEVER goes hot before the lockout is on the main. i trust myself to take the time to get it right and i manually test things every quarter. this isn't rocket science but when you need a generator you are already stressed and here likely sweating your balls off. Missing something is a real danger. View Quote Miss tagged you above, doing it here @The_beer_Slayer |
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Quoted: This cannot physically happen with an Interlock. Yet so many members here refuse to use them, and feel that they will never make a mistake like forgetting to throw the main disconnect... and continue to use suicide cords. Just like a negligent discharge - it only takes once to kill someone. View Quote I used to wonder why they were called suicide cords. A electrician friend set mine up for me, wiring a dryer outlet next to my panel. I laminated an instruction sheet and attached it to the panel and in addition to shutting off the main breaker first, then turning off all breakers in the box, it included attaching the cord to the genny and the outlet before cranking up the generator - so the energized male end was never exposed. The connection on the plug of the cord became loose and the short destroyed a microwave. I had another electrician friend help me do it the right way. Now the interlock prevents the genny from powering the panel until the main is off. Glad I have it done that way now. |
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Truely sucks!!!!!! WE have a backup system, but had it installed by a licensed electrician. System is set up to power only the house or supply power for the local Company.
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If my 22k generac is professionally installed, is this a concern I should be aware of?
18Z50 |
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Quoted: Miss tagged you above, doing it here @The_beer_Slayer View Quote i will be installing a transfer panel eventually but it will be a whole house system not a few circuits. sadly this is going to cost me upwards os 2k for everything installed at todays insane prices. this absolutely CAN be done safely manually and has been for years before those panels were a real thing at the consumer level. It does however take a serious consideration for planning and procedures and the ability to document and follow them when using this equipment. Which is exactly why i have a checklist and physical lockouts marked and checked off prior to opening the gen breaker and starting it. ideal no? a true transfer panel is ideal and it removes the chance of a brain failure. |
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Quoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. |
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Quoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. View Quote I have what I think is a "transfer switch". I had an electrician install it. It is installed only my furnace and only powers the furnace. It has two positions, normal and generator. In the event of a power outage, I plug an extension cord from my generator into that switch (the switch has a male outlet). I then flip the switch from normal to generator. If the power comes back on, I can just flip the switch back to normal. As I understand, this disallows me from back feeding, as it does not allow the electricity from my generator to flow into my panel, only the furnace. At the same time, it does not allow my furnace to receive power from both sources at the same time. Everything else I just unplug from the wall outlet and plug the appliance into my generator directly. Here is the switch that I use for my furnace: https://ezgeneratorswitch.com/ |
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This is what happens when dumbasses fail to properly install transfer switches.
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Quoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Power comes in on a wire. Power can go out on the same wire unless some physical breaker/switch/interlock is thrown in between the house and the rest of the power grid. Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? The power company does not have a means to disconnect individual customers. At least not yet. The day could come when meters could come with a disconnecting means built in but I would hazzard that would only be used for non-payment issues. Closest thing the utility has is single/three phase line recloser on the distribution lines and a lot of those are not operable by scada. |
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I’d heard about problems like that. I bought a small generator post Sandy. Enough to run the fridge, freezer, or blower fan on the propane fireplace. That’s it. Plenty of long extension cords (110v only). It will go direct to the appliances. No chance of a fuckup on my part with the power lines
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I have a interlock but if I didn't and I HAD to have power I would shut the main AND pull the meter/bulb, never trust just the main... it's easy to flip...
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Quoted: What's the difference? Not smart ass, don't know and asking. I have what I think is a "transfer switch". I had an electrician install it. It is installed only my furnace and only powers the furnace. It has two positions, normal and generator. In the event of a power outage, I plug an extension cord from my generator into that switch (the switch has a male outlet). I then flip the switch from normal to generator. If the power comes back on, I can just flip the switch back to normal. As I understand, this disallows me from back feeding, as it does not allow the electricity from my generator to flow into my panel, only the furnace. At the same time, it does not allow my furnace to receive power from both sources at the same time. Everything else I just unplug from the wall outlet and plug the appliance into my generator directly. Here is the switch that I use for my furnace: https://ezgeneratorswitch.com/ View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. I have what I think is a "transfer switch". I had an electrician install it. It is installed only my furnace and only powers the furnace. It has two positions, normal and generator. In the event of a power outage, I plug an extension cord from my generator into that switch (the switch has a male outlet). I then flip the switch from normal to generator. If the power comes back on, I can just flip the switch back to normal. As I understand, this disallows me from back feeding, as it does not allow the electricity from my generator to flow into my panel, only the furnace. At the same time, it does not allow my furnace to receive power from both sources at the same time. Everything else I just unplug from the wall outlet and plug the appliance into my generator directly. Here is the switch that I use for my furnace: https://ezgeneratorswitch.com/ This is fine - if you ONLY need/want to power a specific branch circuit during an outage. Sometimes this can be the lowest cost solution to meet the direct requirement. However, Interlocks installed into the main panel offer WAY more flexibility and do not limit the number of branch circuit options. |
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Quoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? View Quote You want the power companies to spend billions of dollars to prevent the rare dumbfuck from back feeding the system? In my neighborhood, every two houses have their own transformer so it would be a least 50 lockouts, if transformer mounted. 100 if mounted on each house. That is a lot of extra up front cost an even more maintenance cost. |
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Quoted: A local guy with 25 yrs in somehow had his bucket truck fuck up.His bucket swung into a line and it layed across his back. He had both arms amputated at the shoulder..?? View Quote Weird. I know a guy in GA that lost both arm at the shoulder due to something similar. Guess it's not that uncommon. |
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Quoted: This is fine - if you ONLY need/want to power a specific branch circuit during an outage. Sometimes this can be the lowest cost solution to meet the direct requirement. However, Interlocks installed into the main panel offer WAY more flexibility and do not limit the number of branch circuit options. View Quote One day I will have a whole house genset...one day. |
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Quoted: Why no equipotential grounding? Although I don't know if that would have popped any kind of protection device in that scenario. Is equipotential grounding a common thing on the utility side of things? I learned about it on the industrial side, I'm sure things are different. Utility guys are in double insulated booms for starters. View Quote Yes, equipotential grounding is very common in the utility industry. There was a similar incident at my work about a month ago, unfortunately it resulted in a fatality. Rules, procedures, and PPE exist for a reason. |
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Quoted: Which is the point of a proper interlock. You can't NOT remember... It only allows for the main breaker to be on while the generator breaker is off, or the main breaker to be off while the generator breaker is on. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Yes, but super UN-reliable that folks will remember. Set that aside, if I have a generator connected through my panel I’d want the correct switchgear to ensure I’m only paying to power my house and not the grid. I can’t imagine deciding against an interlock because it’s an extra few bucks. Or doing that work without realizing the need for one… which would mean I have no business doing that work in the first place. ETA: “work” being as menial as adding a male adapter to an extension cord. Shoddy DIY electrical work scares the shit out me. |
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Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. View Quote I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. What, if any, criminal charges are there for the homeowner? |
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Quoted: Got it. Yeah my generator solution isn't big enough to power a bunch of my circuits and as you said, a full solution at the panel is more costly. One day I will have a whole house genset...one day. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: This is fine - if you ONLY need/want to power a specific branch circuit during an outage. Sometimes this can be the lowest cost solution to meet the direct requirement. However, Interlocks installed into the main panel offer WAY more flexibility and do not limit the number of branch circuit options. One day I will have a whole house genset...one day. Generator size isn't really THAT important - depending on what you want to power. For instance - in a winter power outage we primarily need to power our natural gas furnace, and two refrigerators to keep the food from spoiling. A small 2500W inverter generator will handle this just fine as the sustained load is under 1000W. However, since we use an interlock, I can also power all the lights in my home (LED) with almost no additional wattage load, along with my internet router/modem equipment and charge phones and iPad at their normal locations, and run a laptop or two, all without having any impact on the ability to run the furnace and fridges. It is the difference between just having heat, or living mostly as normal. |
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Quoted: Generator size isn't really THAT important - depending on what you want to power. For instance - in a winter power outage we primarily need to power our natural gas furnace, and two refrigerators to keep the food from spoiling. A small 2500W inverter generator will handle this just fine as the sustained load is under 1000W. However, since we use an interlock, I can also power all the lights in my home (LED) with almost no additional wattage load, along with my internet router/modem equipment and charge phones and iPad at their normal locations, and run a laptop or two, all without having any impact on the ability to run the furnace and fridges. It is the difference between just having heat, or living mostly as normal. View Quote I figured that's the bare essentials to keep me reasonably happy....as long as it's not the summer. Powering my central A/C is out of the question with my genset. That's the real goal but if I am going to get a generator big enough to do that, might as well just go all in and get a whole house unit that powers the whole panel. |
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Human error is human error .
Otherwise insurance and jails wouldn't exist. |
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Was this on a single customer line? I’ve always heard about the backfeed but in reality you would be energizing everybody’s transformer, from what, a 30 or 50 amp breaker? It would immediately kick that breaker, especially if it’s an inverter genny. Think about trying to power multiple houses with 50 amps. I assume there is an automatic relay that cuts off all the solar panels backfeeding? Is there a chance this was actually a live line from another backfeed source? Most lines are looped back and take 2 places to kill it.
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We don't have any disconnect on our house. Of course we just run cords from the generator to whatever that needs power.
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Unfortunately some people are too stupid to throw the service disconnect and only the transfer switch.
Too bad the line power was not restored and frag his generator. |
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Although I'm not recommending it, one way to isolate your home from the electrical grid is to pull the electric meter, and keep it indoors. Make sure all the breakers are shut off when you reinstall the meter, and that you're not grounded.
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There's no way to tell someone is back feeding? I am electrically dumb
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Quoted: Although I'm not recommending it, one way to isolate your home from the electrical grid is to pull the electric meter, and keep it indoors. Make sure all the breakers are shut off when you reinstall the meter, and that you're not grounded. View Quote It is illegal to pull your own meter here, and in many other locations. |
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Theres been several great questions about what happened and how it happened. Unfortunately, I've posted all the info I have right now and thats all second hand. I don't know when or if I'll hear anything further about the particulars. I've been keeping an eye on the local new sources to see if it gets reported.
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