Local friend of a friend blows head off with a muzzle-loader - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Local friend of a friend blows head off with a muzzle-loader (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:10:16 PM EST

Local friend of a friend had a loaded muzzle loader on a 4wheeler.
He bent over to mess with the 4wheeler putting his head in front of the barrel.
Apparently the heat from the engine had already heated the barrel quite a bit, and finally ignited the gunpower, blowing the guys head off.

Met a girl at a restaurant tonight who also knew the guy. She started saying how if she was the family she would be suing the gun manufacturer. I calmly explained that it wasn't a gun malfunction, but simply the powder being ignited by heat and stupidity by him for putting it near the engine and his head in front of it.

Not sure if she believed me, but I did my duty.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:13:52 PM EST

[#1]

thats really sad.

i hope people learn from it.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:21:33 PM EST

[#2]

Dumb question:

Are muzzleloaders especially sensitive to cook-off? I'm just having a hard time imagining how that much heat could be concentrated in that small an area from a 4x4 engine.

Maybe something actually tripped the trigger while he was messin' around with the vehicle?

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:22:20 PM EST

[#3]

Wow, freak acccident

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:24:27 PM EST

[#4]

note to self: keep gun away from engine.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:26:30 PM EST

[#5]

Jeez, whooda thunk it?

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:28:29 PM EST

[#6]

Quoted:
Dumb question:

Are muzzleloaders especially sensitive to cook-off? I'm just having a hard time imagining how that much heat could be concentrated in that small an area from a 4x4 engine.

Maybe something actually tripped the trigger while he was messin' around with the vehicle?

I'm not a "blackpowderologist" so maybe someone who is could chime in. I just remember from my early experiments with black powder in my youth that it sometimes seemed a little "touchy."

I managed to not get hurt or too singed and treat it with much more respect now.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:29:47 PM EST

[#7]

I don't buy the story of how this happened. Something's missing.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:31:26 PM EST

[#8]

Interesting!? That had to be one hot ass engine to cook off the powder, inside the barrel. Hmmm?

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:35:28 PM EST

[#9]

Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:38:14 PM EST

[#10]

Black powder is a volatile substance...

.... but anyone who hunts with one should NOT walk around with a loaded rifle. If there is powder and a ball/bullet shoved down the front, it IS LOADED, regardless of whether your pan is charged, or you have a cap on the nipple. I had to explain that to a guy at the range once when we had a cease fire.

If there's unburned powder and unlaunched projectiles in the barrel, IT'S LOADED.

Sad to hear about your friend's friend, though.

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:46:04 PM EST

[#11]

Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Posted: 11/15/2005 8:56:30 PM EST

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Yea black power can be pretty unstable... especially when exposed to high heat. It is FAR more dangerous to deal with and store in quantity than smokeless power.

From my experiences with black powder I would think under the right circumstances it would be possible for engine heat to cook off black power. In a flintlock with powder in the pan I would bet it could happen... probably fairly easily.

I would be careful before I labeled this a suicide with all the baggage that entails.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:08:57 PM EST

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Yea black power can be pretty unstable... especially when exposed to high heat. It is FAR more dangerous to deal with and store in quantity than smokeless power.

From my experiences with black powder I would think under the right circumstances it would be possible for engine heat to cook off black power. In a flintlock with powder in the pan I would bet it could happen... probably fairly easily.

I would be careful before I labeled this a suicide with all the baggage that entails.

Achems Razor.
That which is most probable...

1. Blackpowder cooked off after a few minutes on the top of a hood?
2. Negligent/Accidental discharge.
3. Suicide?

#1 isn't looking so probable.
#2 looks more likely.
#3 Possible. But just because the thought hurts, don't rule it out.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:14:12 PM EST

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Yea black power can be pretty unstable... especially when exposed to high heat. It is FAR more dangerous to deal with and store in quantity than smokeless power.

From my experiences with black powder I would think under the right circumstances it would be possible for engine heat to cook off black power. In a flintlock with powder in the pan I would bet it could happen... probably fairly easily.

I would be careful before I labeled this a suicide with all the baggage that entails.

Achems Razor.
That which is most probable...

1. Blackpowder cooked off after a few minutes on the top of a hood?
2. Negligent/Accidental discharge.
3. Suicide?

#1 isn't looking so probable.
#2 looks more likely.
#3 Possible. But just because the thought hurts, don't rule it out.

Thats Occam's Razor. And its a bullshit "principle."

The most probable explanation is not always the correct one.

And if it was suicide, would you TELL the parents that? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:15:22 PM EST

[#15]

Nice how every time someone gets shot, the first thing people want to do is punish the people who had nothing to do with it, be that suing the manufacturer for negligence or deliberate misuse on the part of the user or imposing a ban against legal property.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:18:06 PM EST

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Yea black power can be pretty unstable... especially when exposed to high heat. It is FAR more dangerous to deal with and store in quantity than smokeless power.

From my experiences with black powder I would think under the right circumstances it would be possible for engine heat to cook off black power. In a flintlock with powder in the pan I would bet it could happen... probably fairly easily.

I would be careful before I labeled this a suicide with all the baggage that entails.

Achems Razor.
That which is most probable...

1. Blackpowder cooked off after a few minutes on the top of a hood?
2. Negligent/Accidental discharge.
3. Suicide?

#1 isn't looking so probable.
#2 looks more likely.
#3 Possible. But just because the thought hurts, don't rule it out.

Does Achem needs glasses...

1. No hood involved... a 4 wheeler.
2. Engine without hood very hot.
3. Everybody is guessing.

Probabilities mean actually not much in this case… they are just probabilities. What actually happen... happen, the trick is finding out what that actually was.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:19:42 PM EST

[#17]

Quoted:
.... but anyone who hunts with one should NOT walk around with a loaded rifle.

Those that do walk around with unloaded rifles we call VEGETARIANS. It would not be PC to call them what they are, so we do what we are allowed.

Quoted:
If there is powder and a ball/bullet shoved down the front, it IS LOADED, regardless of whether your pan is charged, or you have a cap on the nipple. I had to explain that to a guy at the range once when we had a cease fire.

If there's unburned powder and unlaunched projectiles in the barrel, IT'S LOADED.

Others view that different. No primer is no mechanism to ignite the powder, therefore not loaded. I'd be willing give you serveral hours to set off a rifle with no primer, if I could bludgeon you for your stupidity when you tired of it. Most states have had to address this in their regulations for hunting seasons, and consider the rifle unloaded it is not capped or primed. Of course, you know better??

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:25:21 PM EST

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Yea black power can be pretty unstable... especially when exposed to high heat. It is FAR more dangerous to deal with and store in quantity than smokeless power.

From my experiences with black powder I would think under the right circumstances it would be possible for engine heat to cook off black power. In a flintlock with powder in the pan I would bet it could happen... probably fairly easily.

I would be careful before I labeled this a suicide with all the baggage that entails.

Achems Razor.
That which is most probable...

1. Blackpowder cooked off after a few minutes on the top of a hood?
2. Negligent/Accidental discharge.
3. Suicide?

#1 isn't looking so probable.
#2 looks more likely.
#3 Possible. But just because the thought hurts, don't rule it out.

Does Achem needs glasses...

1. No hood involved... a 4 wheeler.
2. Engine without hood very hot.
3. Everybody is guessing.

Probabilities mean actually not much in this case… they are just probabilities. What actually happen... happen, the trick is finding out what that actually was.

Achem isn't psychic

It doesn't say "without hood" in the post.

Either way, I'm betting on #2.
Nobody wants to think their kid/friend fucked up.
But, often, this is the case.

ETA: Even if it was the heat from the engine, he still fucked up.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:29:25 PM EST

[#19]

Quoted:
note to self: keep gun away from engine.

Note to Self: Do Not put bodily parts in front of weapon!

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:34:29 PM EST

[#20]

Quoted:

Achem isn't psychic
It doesn't say "without hood" in the post.

Either way, I'm betting on #2.
Nobody wants to think their kid/friend fucked up.
But, often, this is the case.

ETA: Even if it was the heat from the engine, he still fucked up.

Oh I agree he made a mistake and it cost him his life.

I was taught sparks, flame, static electricity, extreme heat, and even friction will set off black powder and from my experience when I was young and irresponsible I would bet money heat from a engine could set if it off in a rifle barrel.

It is going to be pretty easy to tell if it as a AD if it was a percussion rifle. With a flintlock it would be harder to determine, but with a flintlock it is far more likely something other that an AD can set the rifle off.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:39:52 PM EST

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
.... but anyone who hunts with one should NOT walk around with a loaded rifle.

Those that do walk around with unloaded rifles we call VEGETARIANS. It would not be PC to call them what they are, so we do what we are allowed.

Quoted:
If there is powder and a ball/bullet shoved down the front, it IS LOADED, regardless of whether your pan is charged, or you have a cap on the nipple. I had to explain that to a guy at the range once when we had a cease fire.

If there's unburned powder and unlaunched projectiles in the barrel, IT'S LOADED.

Others view that different. No primer is no mechanism to ignite the powder, therefore not loaded. I'd be willing give you serveral hours to set off a rifle with no primer, if I could bludgeon you for your stupidity when you tired of it. Most states have had to address this in their regulations for hunting seasons, and consider the rifle unloaded it is not capped or primed. Of course, you know better??

Since you're so sure of that, why don't you charge a muzzleloader, place the barrel on your stove, and stand in front of it for awhile...

I don't care what the state hunting regs say. Unsafe is still unsafe.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:41:41 PM EST

[#22]

Darwin award claims another!

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:46:27 PM EST

[#23]

From this site: www.fireworksafety.com/ignite.html we find the black powder ignites at 626°F. This would be after his wood stock ignited and well after his plastic stock melted (allowing for both possiblitlies). 'Still think that the engine heat did this? Must have been a lot of melted body work on that poor 4-wheeler.

I am truly sorry about the death , but it was not an accident.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:47:03 PM EST

[#24]

The friction part of Max-mike's post got me wondering. If the barrel was in a position to heat up and the powder charge/bullet/ball was not fully tamped this could have created a combination effect. Rapidly vibrating heated charge? Possible?

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:47:26 PM EST

[#25]

If you have ever seen burns on people from motorcycle pipes from just a brief exposure you would find this story much more probable.

Posted: 11/15/2005 9:50:18 PM EST

[#26]

Quoted:
I don't care what the state hunting regs say. Unsafe is still unsafe.

I don't care what your irrational fears are, safe is still safe. Unless it is for the children.

Posted: 11/15/2005 10:07:00 PM EST

[#27]

Quoted:
From this site: www.fireworksafety.com/ignite.html we find the black powder ignites at 626°F. This would be after his wood stock ignited and well after his plastic stock melted (allowing for both possiblitlies). 'Still think that the engine heat did this? Must have been a lot of melted body work on that poor 4-wheeler.

I am truly sorry about the death , but it was not an accident.

You have no way of knowing what caused this accident. Just like the rest of us you are make an assumptions.

A engine could produce the heat required and metal transfers heat very well… but assuming it was not heat explain to us how you could rule out static electricity or a spark from the engine.

You don’t even know what kind of rifle was involved are you telling us it is not possible for powder in the pan of a flintlock to be shaken out during the ride and be set off on the exhaust for example. Or even simpler the hammer or trigger took a hit and it was an AD.

Throwing around “it was not an accident” like you could actually know is irresponsible. It may not have been a accident but you DON”T know that for CERTAIN and if you say you do know you are wrong.

Posted: 11/15/2005 10:07:29 PM EST

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't care what the state hunting regs say. Unsafe is still unsafe.

I don't care what your irrational fears are, safe is still safe. Unless it is for the children.

Pardon me if I don't consider placing a loaded firearm on a running vehicle and then placing my head in front of the muzzle unsafe.

Maybe it is irrational. I do know that no one ever got shot by keeping their body clear of the muzzle of a loaded gun.

And keep your asinine personal insults to yourself, mkay?

Posted: 11/15/2005 10:08:16 PM EST

[#29]

Quoted:
note to self: keep gun away from engine.

That's wrong, keep gun unloaded until ready to shoot.

Posted: 11/15/2005 10:10:42 PM EST

[#30]

Update

To those who say it was not an accident and he committed suicide...

Keep in mind this is from 3rd party sources, but I have no reason to doubt them as they knew the family.

His father was next to him when this happened. Dude leaned down to check something on the engine (probably adjust the choke), and suddenly "boom!"

Not a suicide IMO. And from the way the story was told to me by both people it sounds as if he was riding for a time with the gun there on the 4wheeler, no doubt building heat the entire time. They stopped so he could check the whatever on the 4wheeler.

Also no blast caps were on the gun according to the father, just loaded with powder and shot.

Posted: 11/15/2005 10:11:51 PM EST

[#31]

Quoted:
If you have ever seen burns on people from motorcycle pipes from just a brief exposure you would find this story much more probable.

Yeah I have seen that. When I was in the hospital in San Diego (Balboa). A guy came in after flipping a bike and landing across the pipes with short cut-off shorts. Damn near lost his balls to third degree burns. If the right part of the barrel contacted the pipe it very well could cook off the powder without melting or burning anything else on the gun. Metal does conduct heat rapidly.

Posted: 11/15/2005 10:24:47 PM EST

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If you have ever seen burns on people from motorcycle pipes from just a brief exposure you would find this story much more probable.

Yeah I have seen that. When I was in the hospital in San Diego (Balboa). A guy came in after flipping a bike and landing across the pipes with short cut-off shorts. Damn near lost his balls to third degree burns. If the right part of the barrel contacted the pipe it very well could cook off the powder without melting or burning anything else on the gun. Metal does conduct heat rapidly.

Different metals conduct heat differently as well. I think its safe to say that the barrel was made of steel. Steel actually conducts heat fairly slowly. This is why one end of a steel bar can be red hot, and the other end be cool enough to handle -- something that most blacksmiths are well aware of.

Just because one area of metal was 600+ degrees F, doesn't mean that the stock would be melted, or on fire, or anything else. If it was a wood stock, I'd suspect some degree of charring, and most plastics I would expect to show some localized deformation or scorching from the heat, but it wouldn't necessarily be the case.

You want a metal that conducts heat rapidly....aluminum, or even better, copper. Why do you think the latest fad in cookware is copper-bottomed pots/pans? Better heat conductivity = more even cooking because there are no localized hotspots.

Posted: 11/16/2005 4:49:58 AM EST

[#33]

Nope, not buying it. One of several things happened:

He snagged he hammer/trigger on some part of the 4-wheeler.
He smacked the cap against some part of the bike.
It's a suicide and family is covering up (happens a lot)

Two things to consider here. The exhaust only reaches around 280-300 degrees. (It's in the manual)
Next,
How in the hell, considering the layout of the engine/exhasut, do you manage to hold the gun against it? (It would have to be a constant firm contact to transfer heat) On my Yamaha you'd have to bungi cord the rifle straight to the muffler, there is no other way to attach it. Even then I doubt it would get any hotter than it would firing a few rounds.

Posted: 11/16/2005 4:55:31 AM EST

[#34]

Realm,

Where are you?

I ask because this exact thing happened last week about 5 miles from my house, and I doubt seriously that it was a different incident.

Posted: 11/16/2005 4:57:20 AM EST

[#35]

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:01:43 AM EST

[#36]

Quoted:
From this site: www.fireworksafety.com/ignite.html we find the black powder ignites at 626°F. This would be after his wood stock ignited and well after his plastic stock melted (allowing for both possiblitlies). 'Still think that the engine heat did this? Must have been a lot of melted body work on that poor 4-wheeler.

I am truly sorry about the death , but it was not an accident.

Here's another tidbit of info to toss into the works....most likely he was NOT using BLACK POWDER...more likely that he was using Pyrodex, which is a Black Powder equivalent...but I believe much more stable.

I sincerely doubt that engine heat bleed off THROUGH THE AIR could heat any firearm's temps to ABOVE 300 degree F...let alone 625!!!

I think that there is more than meets the eye ( or skull ) going on with that situation......

Nonetheless, very sorry about the accident....my condolences.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:03:57 AM EST

[#37]

friend of a friend...

Got a news link? Something that 'freak' would have rated a news article.

ETA: I seem to remember that the flashpoint of Pyrodex is like 750F.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:07:21 AM EST

[#38]

More likely than not, his rifle was loaded with a commercially available blackpowder substitute like Pyrodex or Triple 7. No one uses straight blackpowder these days save for the traditionalists. These substitutes have a higher igition threshold than standard blackpowder.

The barrel steel on a BP rifle affords a barrel wall thickness that would make a cookoff next to impossible with anything less than an acetelyne oxygen torch. A hot metal surface in contact with the barrel, in addition to the air cooling effect of a moving ATV would not allow sufficient heat or time to reasonably accept the possibility of this scenario

Number 11 percussion caps can / do leave priming compound reside on the nipple even after they have been removed. Ergo, a de-capped but loaded muzzleloader can still fire with the cap removed. In fact, it may be even more prone to detonation as you now have a hammer resting on unprotected priming compound and causing friction at the orifice of the nipple.

Now, if he had a rifle which featured ignition via a 209 shotshell primer, he left the damn thing loaded and cocked with the safety(s) disengaged, intentionally or not.

Certainly, none of the aforementioned explanations are anything to go and lose your head over. Should this family decide to sue the gun maker, I respectfully predict that they will be handed their collective asses.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:10:50 AM EST

[#39]

Quoted:
friend of a friend...

Got a news link? Something that 'freak' would have rated a news article.

It was a headline in the Sunday edition of the Memphis, TN Commercial Appeal.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:20:56 AM EST

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
friend of a friend...

Got a news link? Something that 'freak' would have rated a news article.

It was a headline in the Sunday edition of the Memphis, TN Commercial Appeal.

I stand corrected then. Got a link though? I'd like to read the article. I went on the paper's site and couldn't find anything.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:24:38 AM EST

[#41]

Quoted:
~~Achems~~ Occam's Razor.
That which is most probable...

Fixed it for you.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:25:06 AM EST

[#42]

First time I shot a black powder rifle with a friend as a kid, the guy who was teaching us showed us something.

He took a cap and put it on the nipple, and sort of twisted it off.

Then he pointed the gun down range and pulled the trigger.

SOMETIMES the guns still fired -- its like extra "stuff" from the cap was being transferred to the nipple and could light.

Maybe that's what happened?

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:27:33 AM EST

[#43]

Quoted:
Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. .

It takes 140 rounds to get a M4 or M16 to the Cookoff point. Just 140 rounds, that's less than a standard combat load.

Blackpowder is more sensative than smokeless powder.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:30:54 AM EST

[#44]

I've been shooting muzzle loaders for a number of years, side lock traditional style and have not heard of this type of discharge in the past. Based entirely on what information is not NOT available vs what information IS available, no practical explanation is possible at this time. Speculation that the incident occured due to heat from the engine, exhaust or static electricity appears to be more a product from a grieving Father than a trained investigator. Until the facts of the case are known, no logical conclusion can be reached.

I am very sorry to hear of this unfortunate incident and my condolences go out to the family and friends.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:32:00 AM EST

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
friend of a friend...

Got a news link? Something that 'freak' would have rated a news article.

It was a headline in the Sunday edition of the Memphis, TN Commercial Appeal.

I stand corrected then. Got a link though? I'd like to read the article. I went on the paper's site and couldn't find anything.

If REALM and I are referring to the same story, it happened last thursday, and was in the sunday paper, front page.

I have tried registering w/ commercialappeal.com, but their website royally sucks, and I'm not having any success in registering, so I can't search for the story.

Maybe someone else could do so.

BTW, if someone wants to search for the story, the young man was from Cordova TN, and was hunting in the Eastview/Selmer/Ramer area. A nearby homeowner heard the shot, heard the screams, and called police or 911 - I read the article, but I don't remember much of it.

Oh, and the guy was 22 years old, IIRC.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:40:36 AM EST

[#46]

Too bad for the family and friends of this guy.

Posted: 11/16/2005 5:47:12 AM EST

[#47]

To claim exhaust manifold temps. of under 300 degrees would require some type of guard around the much hotter exhaust manifold itself. Combustion temp. is much higher and high RPMs would certainly cause a rise in exhaust manifold temp. No other part of the engine could possible reach exhaust temps.

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:34:04 AM EST

[#48]

Quoted:
To claim exhaust manifold temps. of under 300 degrees would require some type of guard around the much hotter exhaust manifold itself. Combustion temp. is much higher and high RPMs would certainly cause a rise in exhaust manifold temp. No other part of the engine could possible reach exhaust temps.

It looks like the exhaust can get pretty hot according to this site:

fire.feric.ca/36222002/ATVProjectReportIbh.htm

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:38:53 AM EST

[#49]

Where is MYTHBUSTERS when you need them? Mythbusters

Reading ways to ignite blackpowder I found this list.

A flame such as a match or primer flash.

An electrical spark or the sparks from welding, grinding, etc.

Heat from an electric hot plate or a fire directed against or near a closed container even if the powder itself is not exposed to the flame.
So it seems heat alone can ignite the blackpowder but the ignition temperature of blackpowder is 626 degrees Fahrenheit read here

I would say this story is almost impossible

Unless there was a spark,

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:42:40 AM EST

[#50]

Quoted:
Dumb question:

Are muzzleloaders especially sensitive to cook-off? I'm just having a hard time imagining how that much heat could be concentrated in that small an area from a 4x4 engine.

you'd be amazed... when was younger, i had a go kart. it had a little two stroke briggs and stratton engine. after an hour of riding the engine would be very hot. there was a part that got especially hot that i used to run my elbow into all the time when i wasn't paying attention. it would blister the skin immediately. i have no doubt that exposure to heat like that could ignite a muzzle loader.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Local friend of a friend blows head off with a muzzle-loader (Page 1 of 2)

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