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Posted: 12/16/2017 5:29:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That RPM range is where I do most of my shooting. 3rd round is normally where you start compensating for auto fire and bringing it back on target. In terms of RPM, I'm not saying that 900-1000rpm is impossible to control. But its likely one of the least ideal RPM's when compared to a lower ROF like 600rpm. Notably, Jim Sullivan, one of the chief designers of the AR15, has been working for years to lower the ROF in order to maximize controllability. His "product improved M4 has a ROF of around 580, and it is noticeably more controllable: https://youtu.be/gOUKXIrDE0I?t=10m4s The whole interview is worth watching, but I've linked to the section comparing a stock M4 at 850-900rpm vs the sub 600rpm M4. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 5:56:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't go .865 out front, too much extra weight. G rail might work pretty well, make sure to keep the weight down. I would add a better gas tube and bolt. Barrel should be around 1moa capable. Everyone should get the SSF and 90 deg selectors. Bipods and D60's to IAR gunners. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Imagine a rifle based on the M4A1 with a .980" before the gas block, .865" or even .740" after the gas block barrel, Geissele rail, SSF, 90 degree full auto selector, better bipod, and a D60 as an IAR. That I could get behind. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:05:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's funny, I was recently talking with someone about 3rd burst likely being the worst mode of fire - as the 3rd round is where we are likely to see maximum dispersion, with not ability to compensate for. In terms of RPM, I'm not saying that 900-1000rpm is impossible to control. But its likely one of the least ideal RPM's when compared to a lower ROF like 600rpm. Notably, Jim Sullivan, one of the chief designers of the AR15, has been working for years to lower the ROF in order to maximize controllability. His "product improved M4 has a ROF of around 580, and it is noticeably more controllable: https://youtu.be/gOUKXIrDE0I?t=10m4s The whole interview is worth watching, but I've linked to the section comparing a stock M4 at 850-900rpm vs the sub 600rpm M4. [youtube]FAIyQ5yqVu8?t=203[/youtube] |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:22:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Primarily the more accurate barrel and free floating slightly longer hand guard. Trigger should also feel slightly nicer, but I would prefer an SSF. I've always felt our issue rifles should be more accurate. Free float is also important as loading a bipod can change impact. Sling tension (if you choose to use it) also affects impact. Half the Corps can't use the extra accuracy, but I think at least 10-20% could. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:29:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't ya'll still use the M4? I mean at least the M4A1 has a much more accurate barrel and a full auto trigger with one semi decent trigger pull. 
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:34:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Primarily the more accurate barrel and free floating slightly longer hand guard. Trigger should also feel slightly nicer, but I would prefer an SSF. I've always felt our issue rifles should be more accurate. Free float is also important as loading a bipod can change impact. Sling tension (if you choose to use it) also affects impact. Half the Corps can't use the extra accuracy, but I think at least 10-20% could. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Why? I've always felt our issue rifles should be more accurate. Free float is also important as loading a bipod can change impact. Sling tension (if you choose to use it) also affects impact. Half the Corps can't use the extra accuracy, but I think at least 10-20% could. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:35:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. M4 or M16A4 with crappy triggers Plus look at this. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:39:52 PM EDT
[#8]
All that is of course dependent upon good ammunition. Hopefully the M855A1 we get issued will end up with better accuracy than the M855.
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:42:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ironically there was many here who had said that in the various M27 threads, that the US could obtain a rifle you just described for a much lower price then the H&K offering (there up to there 5th version of the 416) and obtain all those features... |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 6:47:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All that is of course dependent upon good ammunition. Hopefully the M855A1 we get issued will end up with better accuracy than the M855. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 7:43:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 416 is actually up to the 416A7 now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Ironically there was many here who had said that in the various M27 threads, that the US could obtain a rifle you just described for a much lower price then the H&K offering (there up to there 5th version of the 416) and obtain all those features... 
quite impressive (in both a postive as well as negative sense) that they have had 7(?) generations within roughly a decade |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 7:46:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M855A1 has far better accuracy than M855, but pre-GWOT had far better accuracy than pos-GWOT as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All that is of course dependent upon good ammunition. Hopefully the M855A1 we get issued will end up with better accuracy than the M855. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 7:49:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2017/12/11/new-in-2018-corps-adopts-m855a1-round/ The Army's M855A1 round has proved a deadlier bullet than the Corps' M855 5.56mm round, said Chris Woodburn of the Corps' Combat Development Command. "The M855A1 provides improved performance over the current M855, 5.56mm round in a lead-free form factor, and provides improved steel penetration, hard- and soft-target terminal effects, with more consistent terminal effects than the M855 at ranges out to 600 meters," Woodburn told Marine Corps Times. In testing, the Army round caused "some durability issues" for the Marine Corps' M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle, Brig. Gen. Joseph Shrader, MARCORYSCOM's commanding officer, told Senators in June. Even though the M855A1 reduces the IAR's durability, the M27 is still "operationally suitable" when firing the Army rounds, Woodburn said. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 7:54:59 PM EDT
[#14]
What we need is something lower RPM with a constant recoil system.
Something more controllable. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 8:20:13 PM EDT
[#15]
What was the RoF on the other IAR submissions? I knew a fairly senior gun plumber at LWRCI and their submission seemed to be a really good rifle. The paper stats looked great...but I never got to try it.
As much as I despise muzzle brakes on rifles used for social work, this might be a good place for one. |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 8:42:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: wouldn't part of A1's improved accuracy be due to it not being manufactured during the height of GWOT? |
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Posted: 12/16/2017 9:01:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Just read the whole thread, this is awesome. Thanks all for the valuable info!
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Posted: 12/16/2017 10:16:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Imagine a rifle based on the M4A1 with a .980" before the gas block, .865" or even .740" after the gas block barrel, Geissele rail, SSF, 90 degree full auto selector, better bipod, and a D60 as an IAR. That I could get behind. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: On the other hand you have people with the argument that if Gunner Wade says the M27 is the greatest thing ever, it's fact. I'd like to see how it performs in an automatic rifle role in the hands of someone it is issued to. Probably not much different than those two and probably not much different than how an M4A1 with a Harris bipod would do. Of course I would take a nicely built free float DI with an accurate barrel over the M27. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 12:10:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
midlength gas system too! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: On the other hand you have people with the argument that if Gunner Wade says the M27 is the greatest thing ever, it's fact. I'd like to see how it performs in an automatic rifle role in the hands of someone it is issued to. Probably not much different than those two and probably not much different than how an M4A1 with a Harris bipod would do. Of course I would take a nicely built free float DI with an accurate barrel over the M27. 
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:39:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
midlength gas system too! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: On the other hand you have people with the argument that if Gunner Wade says the M27 is the greatest thing ever, it's fact. I'd like to see how it performs in an automatic rifle role in the hands of someone it is issued to. Probably not much different than those two and probably not much different than how an M4A1 with a Harris bipod would do. Of course I would take a nicely built free float DI with an accurate barrel over the M27. -Midlength gas -Mlok free float handguard -Geissele SSF with High Speed Selector -SF Warcomp http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/What-is-the-next-evolution-of-the-M4A1-shaping-up-to-look-like-Block-III-/118-717047/ What we really need though is the "M4A3," which is the above M4A2 with the following upgrades: - Surefire Low RPM "Advanced Rifle Operating Core" to reduce ROF to below 600rpm and improve bolt life -Picatinny "Durable Solid Lubricant Coating" for the BCG -3 position Adjustable Gas Block optimized for M855A1 (Normal, Suppressed, Adverse) -FN CHF heavy barrel optimized for accuracy and reduced cook off That would completely outperform the M27 at 1/2 the cost. The SF AROC system: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ http://www.defensereview.com/surefire-optimized-bolt-carrier-long-stroke-obc-ls-drop-in-bcg-and-h7s-buffer-system-for-better-weapon-control-reliability-and-durability-best-tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbineshort-barreled-rifle/ |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:49:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What you guys are basically describing is the URG / "M4A2" / SOCOM Block III: -Midlength gas -Mlok free float handguard -Geissele SSF with High Speed Selector -SF Warcomp http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/What-is-the-next-evolution-of-the-M4A1-shaping-up-to-look-like-Block-III-/118-717047/ What we really need though is the "M4A3," which is the above M4A2 with the following upgrades: - Surefire Low RPM "Advanced Rifle Operating Core" to reduce ROF to below 600rpm and improve bolt life -Picatinny "Durable Solid Lubricant Coating" for the BCG -3 position Adjustable Gas Block optimized for M855A1 (Normal, Suppressed, Adverse) -FN CHF heavy barrel optimized for accuracy and reduced cook off That would completely outperform the M27 at 1/2 the cost. The SF AROC system: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ http://www.defensereview.com/surefire-optimized-bolt-carrier-long-stroke-obc-ls-drop-in-bcg-and-h7s-buffer-system-for-better-weapon-control-reliability-and-durability-best-tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbineshort-barreled-rifle/ |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:51:52 AM EDT
[#22]
M27 will only temporarily be in service to all.
Other things are coming. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:55:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M27 will only temporarily be in service to all. Other things are coming. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:09:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think the M27 will ever be in service to all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
M27 will only temporarily be in service to all. Other things are coming. Ain't gonna happen. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:18:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That AROC looks cool but is completely untested. 
It's also very similar to the FERFRANS system which has been around since 1999. Obviously the AROC system would need to be evaluated (similar to the MLOK vs Keymod eval,) but the core technology is pretty basic - the bolt travels 0.4" longer and has a spring loaded weight, to slow down the overall action and recoil impulse. It's not "next generation sci fi" like the rotating chamber, forward ejection system for the LSAT, or the G11 2200 rpm hyperburst. If we stick to just whats "proven" then we will never actually "improve" in a meaningful way. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:29:51 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gun Jesus released a PPSh-41 video today that included a discussion of how cyclic rate relates to controllability.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAIyQ5yqVu8?t=203His "bell curve of controllability" stacks up pretty well with the French study, which found a similar curve, albeit with more clearly defined optimums. Speaking of his reference to the controllability of the low RPM M3 Grease Gun, here's a guy "mowing the lawn" with one, which really demonstrates the benefits of a low ROF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAOKhLi8xj4 His mention of the ROF vs Mag Capacity also is another really good point - you get a lot more "Gas Millage" with a low ROF: M27 IAR: 30rd @ 900rpm = 2 seconds firing time M27 IAR: 60rd @ 900rpm = 4 seconds firing time RPK 74: 45rd @ 600 rpm = 4.5 seconds firing time Sullivan Low RPM M4: 60rd @ 600 rpm = 6 seconds firing time M249 : 100rd @ 800 rpm = 7.5 seconds firing time Ultimax: 100rd @ 450 rpm = 13.3 seconds firing time |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 8:16:39 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly, doing squad-level field problems and battle drills on the weekend for the past couple years. All of us are civilians, with quite a few vets (mostly engineers), but we try and get out, really use our gear, and figure out what works and what doesn't. . |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 9:13:41 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That AROC looks cool but is completely untested. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 9:42:26 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What you guys are basically describing is the URG / "M4A2" / SOCOM Block III: -Midlength gas -Mlok free float handguard -Geissele SSF with High Speed Selector -SF Warcomp http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/What-is-the-next-evolution-of-the-M4A1-shaping-up-to-look-like-Block-III-/118-717047/ What we really need though is the "M4A3," which is the above M4A2 with the following upgrades: - Surefire Low RPM "Advanced Rifle Operating Core" to reduce ROF to below 600rpm and improve bolt life -Picatinny "Durable Solid Lubricant Coating" for the BCG -3 position Adjustable Gas Block optimized for M855A1 (Normal, Suppressed, Adverse) -FN CHF heavy barrel optimized for accuracy and reduced cook off That would completely outperform the M27 at 1/2 the cost. The SF AROC system: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ http://www.defensereview.com/surefire-optimized-bolt-carrier-long-stroke-obc-ls-drop-in-bcg-and-h7s-buffer-system-for-better-weapon-control-reliability-and-durability-best-tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbineshort-barreled-rifle/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: On the other hand you have people with the argument that if Gunner Wade says the M27 is the greatest thing ever, it's fact. I'd like to see how it performs in an automatic rifle role in the hands of someone it is issued to. Probably not much different than those two and probably not much different than how an M4A1 with a Harris bipod would do. Of course I would take a nicely built free float DI with an accurate barrel over the M27. -Midlength gas -Mlok free float handguard -Geissele SSF with High Speed Selector -SF Warcomp http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/What-is-the-next-evolution-of-the-M4A1-shaping-up-to-look-like-Block-III-/118-717047/ What we really need though is the "M4A3," which is the above M4A2 with the following upgrades: - Surefire Low RPM "Advanced Rifle Operating Core" to reduce ROF to below 600rpm and improve bolt life -Picatinny "Durable Solid Lubricant Coating" for the BCG -3 position Adjustable Gas Block optimized for M855A1 (Normal, Suppressed, Adverse) -FN CHF heavy barrel optimized for accuracy and reduced cook off That would completely outperform the M27 at 1/2 the cost. The SF AROC system: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ http://www.defensereview.com/surefire-optimized-bolt-carrier-long-stroke-obc-ls-drop-in-bcg-and-h7s-buffer-system-for-better-weapon-control-reliability-and-durability-best-tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbineshort-barreled-rifle/ |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 10:14:32 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What you guys are basically describing is the URG / "M4A2" / SOCOM Block III: -Midlength gas -Mlok free float handguard -Geissele SSF with High Speed Selector -SF Warcomp http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/What-is-the-next-evolution-of-the-M4A1-shaping-up-to-look-like-Block-III-/118-717047/ What we really need though is the "M4A3," which is the above M4A2 with the following upgrades: - Surefire Low RPM "Advanced Rifle Operating Core" to reduce ROF to below 600rpm and improve bolt life -Picatinny "Durable Solid Lubricant Coating" for the BCG -3 position Adjustable Gas Block optimized for M855A1 (Normal, Suppressed, Adverse) -FN CHF heavy barrel optimized for accuracy and reduced cook off That would completely outperform the M27 at 1/2 the cost. The SF AROC system: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ http://www.defensereview.com/surefire-optimized-bolt-carrier-long-stroke-obc-ls-drop-in-bcg-and-h7s-buffer-system-for-better-weapon-control-reliability-and-durability-best-tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbineshort-barreled-rifle/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: On the other hand you have people with the argument that if Gunner Wade says the M27 is the greatest thing ever, it's fact. I'd like to see how it performs in an automatic rifle role in the hands of someone it is issued to. Probably not much different than those two and probably not much different than how an M4A1 with a Harris bipod would do. Of course I would take a nicely built free float DI with an accurate barrel over the M27. -Midlength gas -Mlok free float handguard -Geissele SSF with High Speed Selector -SF Warcomp http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/What-is-the-next-evolution-of-the-M4A1-shaping-up-to-look-like-Block-III-/118-717047/ What we really need though is the "M4A3," which is the above M4A2 with the following upgrades: - Surefire Low RPM "Advanced Rifle Operating Core" to reduce ROF to below 600rpm and improve bolt life -Picatinny "Durable Solid Lubricant Coating" for the BCG -3 position Adjustable Gas Block optimized for M855A1 (Normal, Suppressed, Adverse) -FN CHF heavy barrel optimized for accuracy and reduced cook off That would completely outperform the M27 at 1/2 the cost. The SF AROC system: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/ http://www.defensereview.com/surefire-optimized-bolt-carrier-long-stroke-obc-ls-drop-in-bcg-and-h7s-buffer-system-for-better-weapon-control-reliability-and-durability-best-tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbineshort-barreled-rifle/ I believe an automatic rifle should have a very heavy barrel with 60 round mags and all the others should be much lighter barrels (constant taper?) with 30 round mags. The extra weight alone of the heavier barrel and bipod will make it more controllable. Either make them all 14.5" or do something like this: Squad Leader - 10.3" lighter barrel Team Leader - 10.3 lighter barrel Grenadier - 12.5" lighter barrel, under barrel 40mm Rifleman/Designated Marksman - 14.5" lighter barrel, 1-8X optic Automatic Rifleman - 16" heavier barrel |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 11:45:28 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was listing the simplest, proven, compatible with current parts options. I believe an automatic rifle should have a very heavy barrel with 60 round mags and all the others should be much lighter barrels (constant taper?) with 30 round mags. The extra weight alone of the heavier barrel and bipod will make it more controllable. Either make them all 14.5" or do something like this: Squad Leader - 10.3" lighter barrel Team Leader - 10.3 lighter barrel Grenadier - 12.5" lighter barrel, under barrel 40mm Rifleman/Designated Marksman - 14.5" lighter barrel, 1-8X optic Automatic Rifleman - 16" heavier barrel |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 12:18:18 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why not give the grenadier a 10.3" barrel? Then there are 3 different barrels instead of 4. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I was listing the simplest, proven, compatible with current parts options. I believe an automatic rifle should have a very heavy barrel with 60 round mags and all the others should be much lighter barrels (constant taper?) with 30 round mags. The extra weight alone of the heavier barrel and bipod will make it more controllable. Either make them all 14.5" or do something like this: Squad Leader - 10.3" lighter barrel Team Leader - 10.3 lighter barrel Grenadier - 12.5" lighter barrel, under barrel 40mm Rifleman/Designated Marksman - 14.5" lighter barrel, 1-8X optic Automatic Rifleman - 16" heavier barrel |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 12:20:01 PM EDT
[#33]
you use an SBR because your mission is primarily in a building and in and out of vehicles.
Weight has nothing to do with it. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 12:21:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would it shock you to learn that the German MG34 in the squad LMG role was designed to be with either a 70 rd top cover magazine (the entire feed tray assemble would need to be removed and replaced to use belts), or using a snail drum with belted ammo and ten less rounds than a Magpul 60 round drum holds but weighed twice as much? |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:08:57 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The pics seem to show an un-captured extractor pin. Seems that could cause some issues. Also why LMT added that extra lip to the carrier of the E-BCG otherwise the extractor pin would be uncaptured and eventually vibrate out. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:11:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you use an SBR because your mission is primarily in a building and in and out of vehicles. Weight has nothing to do with it. Alot of people seem to think the Germans had a monopoly on mechanized warfare. From the whole Blitzkrieg propaganda that came from Germany. But the US, was way more mechanized than the Germans were. We were more mechanized than anyone else. And it's probably why we won the war. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:13:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm surprised with HOW MUCH mechanization and such has been in the US military since the 1930s or even sooner. That we haven't gone with shorter weapons as standard issue. Until now, at least with the M4. Alot of people seem to think the Germans had a monopoly on mechanized warfare. From the whole Blitzkrieg propaganda that came from Germany. But the US, was way more mechanized than the Germans were. We were more mechanized than anyone else. And it's probably why we won the war. We fought in tanks and APCs with M14s and Garands. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:15:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Its easy to make M16s super controllable with the right buffer/gas system. Ive got several of my uppers running at slow rate of fires with zero muzzle climb.
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:30:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not fanboi of HK or piston guns, and I'm not an engineer. But I've read that when it comes to short barrel (I guess 14.5" qualifies), lots of full auto, and suppressor use, piston is the way to go. We're going to be using these carbines for rifleman and DM work, but also IAR duty, they need to be able to function well on full auto, and the times appear that all suppressor, all the time is likely on the horizon, so we better start designing our weapons to work well in full auto while suppressed. Because if we don't, we're still stuck with a weapon that either wont work well suppressed (which then means reliability issues or tactical problems from going sans suppressor), and eventually we're just going to have to fix that problem anyway. Maybe a simple adjustable gas block on a normal DI gas system is enough. I don't know enough to answer it it, but however, adjustable gas regulator is something that NEEDS to be on the next service rifle. Something like the Geissele buffer/braided spring package would be sweet with the H2 weight. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:36:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you for your service. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Honestly, doing squad-level field problems and battle drills on the weekend for the past couple years. All of us are civilians, with quite a few vets (mostly engineers), but we try and get out, really use our gear, and figure out what works and what doesn't. Company level, to be issued as mission-specific equipment. It looks to be a good approach, when coupled with the 240s in the company weapons platoon. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:37:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our great accomplishment. We fought in tanks and APCs with M14s and Garands. 
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:41:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is wrong with a full auto AR with a KAC bolt and barrel , inconel gas tube, SSA-E trigger, suppressor, free float Giessele rail and mission dependent optics and magazine? The gas tube is a safety device and you WANT it to melt before your barrel bursts. A gas tube that's too durable, and the barrel is the weak point. If the barrel bursts, you're in for a bad time. If the gas tube melts, you probably won't get injured. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:42:35 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its easy to make M16s super controllable with the right buffer/gas system. Ive got several of my uppers running at slow rate of fires with zero muzzle climb. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:44:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Adjustable gas regulator, H2 buffer, better action spring, and the LMT enhanced bolt carrier group with it's longer cam track, more vent holes, and it's better bolt would solve that problem, IMO. Something like the Geissele buffer/braided spring package would be sweet with the H2 weight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not fanboi of HK or piston guns, and I'm not an engineer. But I've read that when it comes to short barrel (I guess 14.5" qualifies), lots of full auto, and suppressor use, piston is the way to go. We're going to be using these carbines for rifleman and DM work, but also IAR duty, they need to be able to function well on full auto, and the times appear that all suppressor, all the time is likely on the horizon, so we better start designing our weapons to work well in full auto while suppressed. Because if we don't, we're still stuck with a weapon that either wont work well suppressed (which then means reliability issues or tactical problems from going sans suppressor), and eventually we're just going to have to fix that problem anyway. Maybe a simple adjustable gas block on a normal DI gas system is enough. I don't know enough to answer it it, but however, adjustable gas regulator is something that NEEDS to be on the next service rifle. Something like the Geissele buffer/braided spring package would be sweet with the H2 weight. Short barrel suppressed AR-15s work fine as is. You guys are solving problems that don't actually exist. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:45:16 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Incolonel gas tube is an abhorrently bad idea in my amateur opinion. The gas tube is a safety device and you WANT it to melt before your barrel bursts. A gas tube that's too durable, and the barrel is the weak point. If the barrel bursts, you're in for a bad time. If the gas tube melts, you probably won't get injured. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 1:53:33 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something missing from the IAR discussion, is whether the M27 is actually good as a full auto weapon. From the Marine's own video with Gunner Wade, at 80m off the bipod, the M27 is shooting off target by the 3rd round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18kXkuoA014 This is not exactly inspiring performance, especially when you compare it to a dedicated IAR like the Ultimax 100 and it's constant recoil system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1zQuWpsYZY Ideally, we should upgrade the M4A1's to M4A3 (the URG-1 improvements + the Armwest/Surefire developed reduced rate of fire bolt design to drop ROF to 600rpm) and then issue either the KAC LMG or Ultimax 100 to replace the M249. I'd rather see the LMT solution. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:06:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or Marines with M16A2s in AAVs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Our great accomplishment. We fought in tanks and APCs with M14s and Garands. It was horrible.
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:31:04 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Primarily the more accurate barrel and free floating slightly longer hand guard. Trigger should also feel slightly nicer, but I would prefer an SSF. I've always felt our issue rifles should be more accurate. Free float is also important as loading a bipod can change impact. Sling tension (if you choose to use it) also affects impact. Half the Corps can't use the extra accuracy, but I think at least 10-20% could. Free floating an M4 increases the bolt life. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:36:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for your service. |
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Posted: 12/17/2017 2:37:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If your thinking of IG88's video, he popped a barrel because it was a lighter weight profile made from stainless steel. A 4150 barrel probably wouldn't have popped. A heavier barrel wouldn't have blown. The danger zone for bursting a barrel is probably 4+ combat loads fired without a break. I'll take a slightly improved gas tube and not worry about the barrel.  M4 vs. M4a1 carbine; destructive testing |
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