Sylvan, I'm just curious. Do you have a Ranger tab?

Not calling you out or anything, it's just something I sort of expected, but realized I didn't know for sure.

I'd be curious to know what the RPM is with the LMT enhanced bolt.

In terms of durability, that seems to be addressed by the SF AROC:

"The AROC Bolt offers 30% longer bolt lugs. Naturally, this means it requires a longer Barrel Extension. This was done to eliminate bolt lug breakage."
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/20/mdm-17-surefire-advanced-rifle-operating-core/

So really, you get the 580rpm FA + superior bolt life with the AROC.

Seems pretty sweet to me

Nope.

Broken foot at Darby.   Thx for playing.

Yeah, I can see how my phrasing could have been misleading. Sorry about that. I conflated reported problems with my own experience.

No, I don't sneak that in because I have no interest in receiving credit for something I didn't actually do.

Yeah, I've read that. The LMT solution doesn't use proprietary extensions and has the increased life. IMO, the Surefire solution of longer bolt lugs was sloppy. If you're gonna modify them, why wouldn't you round them like KAC did?

Plus, proprietary parts seems like ass. I don't think the military would ever adopt something that requires a separate barrel extension, new recoil springs, AND new buffers.

As for what the cyclic rate is with the LMT Enhanced bolt carrier, I can post that in the next few days. I have one, and a regular Colt carrier. I just need a way of reliably measuring the cyclic rate.

#SlavLife



also, AKM > G3 (and CEAM Modèle 1950 > G3)

I generally measure cyclic rate from the audio. Works well for machineguns. In my case it tells me how fast I'm shooting, but not my bcg cycle speed.

RPM testing the LMT would be fantastic. A simple video, showing how many seconds it takes to empty a 30rd mag, should be sufficient for gauging the RPM. A shot timer on top of that would be great, that can record the time between the first and last shot.

I agree, it is odd that they didn't round the AROC lugs similar to the KAC. On the other hand, since the project is still pre-production, there's nothing preventing them from integrating that into the design when they go to production.

SF did make the alternative version of the AROC, the OBC, which will work with existing barrel extensions. And I don't see anything off hand that prevents the OBC (whose RPM benefits come from the Carrier) from using an enhanced bolt - either the LMT, or just a regular bolt with enhanced "roller burnishing" that apparently doubles bolt life.

Proprietary parts really aren't that scary - the URG program is replacing the entire upper receiver. Nor is the replacing of buffers unprecedented - it's my understanding that the M4A1 uses the H2 buffer, not the original Carbine buffer used in the M4. Buffers and Springs are really cheap, and can have a big impact in performance.

Really though, we can't be wedded to the past.

The "reflex adherence to the status quo" is what has us clinging to a TDP from the 60's - to the point where the M4/M4A1 is the only assault rifle in the 1st or 2nd world that doesn't have a CHF barrel. Pretty much every single component in the M4A1 is behind the times of what is currently available on the market now.

Why not create a fully optimized M4 to carry us into the 21st century? The M4A3 would give the semi auto accuracy of a DMR, with the full auto controllability of a submachine gun - the very goal of the original Sturmgewehr back in 1944.

I don't think every Marine who is a grunt will get it either. That would be something like 40,000-50,000 M27's at a price of $2,500-$3,000 each, not to mention its life cycle costs far exceeding that of the M4. The vast majority of its parts have identical life cycles as that of the M4, yet each part costs significantly more.

The surefire bolt is poorly designed imo. What is retaining the extractor pin? Look at every BCG that increase cam travel it uses something to retain the pin. The extractor pin on the AR-15 is not self contained within the bolt, it requires some secondary outside force to retain it within the bolt.
The LMT BCG has a slightly extended lip to retain the pin, the KAC E3 uses a spring built into the extractor to retain the pin, the Surefire uses nothing to retain the pin but the base extractor spring that will not hold it under recoil.

Not really, it's a new barrel and rail system. It is using the same gas block and flash hider, as well as the same buffer, buffer spring, lower parts, etc as the basic M4A1. It's really no different than how SOCOM has the 10.3" barrels as well as 14.5" barrels.

How is the M4A1 behind the times with every single component? Look at what most of Europe is adopting....The HK416, the only thing the HK416 has over the M4A1 is a FF rail....That's it, I guess I'm failing to see how the M4A1 lacks in every category to everything on the market.

Could the M4A1 use a new rail....sure the KAC RAS is dated, but outside of that the M4A1 is not really truly lacking in any way compared to what is on the market. Some weapons have some pluses over it in some cases but those come at a significant price increase, unless you want to argue the HK416 surpasses the M4A1 in every way or the AK-12 a AK-74 with a new rail system and a dust cover with rail is also passing up the M4A1 across the board.

When and where can we buy overruns/surplus?

And Joglee come of age.

Ease up Grumpy, he just asked you a question.

Agreed on all points. And this is just for conventional forces. SOF's M4A1 also has a free floated rail, both on the 10.3 and the 14.5. And there is a greater chance of conventional forces getting the RIS II or similar in the future than the 416 due to cost. Just a bolt on part instead of new rifles for everyone.

And spyderco, just for facts sake the M4 carbine utilizes the H buffer, M4A1 utilizes the H2 as you stated.

The URG upgrade / "M4A2" is actually a lot more extensive; the URG program is more of an upgrade then the M4A1 program:
-New barrel with midlength gas system
-Low profile gas block
-Mlok handguard w/ FF barrel
-New SF Warcomp


Unconfirmed but suggested in the Block III thread is also a upgrade to the Geissele High Speed Selector

"How is the M4A1 behind the times with every single component?"
-Button rifled barrel vs Cold Hammer Forged
-A2 flash hider vs hybrid flash/comp that would also control muzzle rise (T91 flash hider, SF Warcomp)
-Carbine Length Gas system vs Midlength
-Front sight gas block vs low profile
-Stainless steel gas tube vs nitride  
-7" quad rail that is not free float vs free float 13" MLOK handguard
-Mil spec bolt vs Enhanced durability Bolt or even roller burnished bolt lugs
-Maganese Phosphate bolt coating vs Nickel Teflon, DLC, or the new Picatinny Durable Solid Lubricant
-5.5-9lb milspec trigger vs ALG enhanced NP3 coated trigger or Geisselle SSF
-A2 Pistol grip vs Ergonomic pistol grip with internal storage
-Ambi safety vs ambi mag release, bolt catch/release, safety, and charging handle
-H2 buffer and mil spec spring vs Vltor A5 or other enhanced buffer system
-Milspec collapsible stock vs ergonomic collapsible stock with internal battery/bolt storage
-Web sling mounts vs QD sling mount sockets on stock and hadguard
-ROF of 850-900rpm vs 580-700rpm through reduced RPM optimization (AROC, Ferfrans, MGI, etc)

Seriously, what part of M4A1 isn't behind what's available on the commercial market?

Thank you.

It would be nice if HK would...ahem...start pushing their A5's to the civvy world so we could actually give them a fair shake instead of writing them off as overpriced garbage.  I don't mind a piston upper, and PWS is the current best IMHO, along with Adams Arms, but if HK would let us mere mortals play with some A5 goodness (or whatever generation they are on now), it would go a long way in aftermarket, free R&D, etc.

sexy

Lol, HK? Making sound business decisions? Catering to an untapped market of HK fanboys drooling for their firearms? Don't make me laugh.

I know right...what was I thinking.  

It's okay dude, I feel your pain.

SOCOM bought the heavy barrel because teams doing CQB ready-up drills were blowing barrels.  First report outside the schoolhouse was from Captain (later Colonel) Dave W, a guy I served with later in Iraq.  We dodged that problem at the schoolhouse by shooting five mags then grounding carbines while we reloaded mags.

Gadgetry will never replace competence.

I like the SAW and the capability it gives.  I like the Para Mark 46 better because it's lighter.  I REALLY like the Ultimax because of its constant-recoil system.

In Army big GP Forces you're never going to develop tactically and technically proficient snipers and light and medium general purpose machinegunners.  NEVER.  As some have pointed out your smarter ones may earn their spurs as belt-gunners but then they're going to be yanked to be team and squad leaders, and then promoted, PCS, ETS, or go on to other things -- and the cycle starts all over again with a new cohort of cherries...

and the experienced group is shrinking as the wars and deployments are cycling down.

For whatever reason the Marines got their M27s for the auto-rifle role and want to expand that to DMs and hell, why not everybody in the infantry?  Marines will make up what they lack in organic squad belt-fed capability with dead first-termers.  They expect, plan, and organize for that.

The Army will spend billions trying to find the perfect weapon that a Joe just needs to carry and think about hurting bad people.  That will go well until units are overrun and destroyed.  That hasn't happened since Korea and Vietnam so isn't in our psyche.

The Army NCO corps no longer has a small-arms savvy cadre that can decisively say to the weapons-buyers what we need.  I've seen too many requirements get drafted at Benning by the Picatinny contractor, writing as if he speaks for Joe on the ground (enamored with what he sees on-line and at the SHOT Show).  Talk about your self-licking ice cream cone.

On the other hand I have served on teams where guys would run back to the G-ride to get a different weapon.  I'd yell over, "Where the fuck are you going?!" to get the reply back, "Hell, I've never killed a guy with a (pick one -- sniper rifle, SAW, SPR, etc.) so I'm going to get it off the vehicle!"

I like the idea of M855A1 and my very limited experience with it (across two companies) is it flies like M16A1 M193 -- flat and tighter-grouping than Green-tip 855.

It's okay, KAC is my daddy now.

That is awesome, and I would probably do the same shit.

How long before it's available and  .30 cents a round?

The URG-I still uses the Mk12 gasblock the Block II upper uses, that was confirmed as was the fact that the warcomp was not chosen and they are staying with the SF4P, again confirmed. At the end of the day the URG-I is a mid length barrel with a Geissele rail, that is the only real change taking place plus the whole Geissele charging handle of course.

The geissele gas peddle is not a part of the changes to the M4A1, also confirmed.

Can you please point out your dream rifle being made on the market today? I'll wait, what would it cost? Can you prove all those parts work together perfectly with no problem? It's great to dream...it really is, but you're sitting here just throwing out every new random thing you see posted on SSD . I will single out two items of interest, DLC and Roller burnished bolts....Both are going through extensive testing by Picatinny. If they turn out to be all they live up to you can pretty much guarantee they will be going to all of our weapon systems eventually, but that takes time. It took 4 years to test the Pmag M3.

Things like bolts or new coating will be tested even more thoroughly than a magazine.

Again look at what is being purchased for the URG-I
The only main difference is a new barrel, rail, and CH.

Give the M4A1 a new barrel/rail...BAM! best rifle being deployed in the world. Hell it's already pretty much the best rifle out there right now.

Perhaps instead of medals the Army could go to an Xbox style achievement system “Achievement Unlocked: Carl Gustav Triple Kill”

The URG-1 represents a very large change vs the M4A1, which was the basis of comparison for what I was comparing it to - not the Block II.

https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-m4a1/

Given that the Army is steadily upgrading M4's to M4A1, and the Marine's are still using regular M4's - it seems pretty crazy to keep upgrading the weapons to what is already a dated standard, vs upgrading them to -at a minimum, the URG standard.

As for the cost of a "M4A3" vs the URG, the extra cost is pretty minimal relative to capability increase.
-SF Warcomp - price neutral vs SF4P
-Geissele HSS - price unknown, but lets say $100?
-SF AROC or OBL - price unknown, but the design is similar to the FERFRANS bolt, which is available for $260 retail. Lets say $300 with DSL coating vs the previous nickel coating.
-3 position adjustable gas system - $149 retail (well, at least when MicroMoa was around)

So retail pricing, we're looking at ~ $549. Assuming a pretty typical 40% cost reduction for wholesale / bulk ordering, we're talking $329 extra.

Further cost savings could be had if, instead of the Geiselle rail and DD barrel / parts of the URG, the rifle was built with the FN Tactical II as the starting point (this is the FN that uses their version of the Hodge rail.)
https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-15-tactical-ii/

If the M4A3 was built by FN and based on the Tactical II, I'd expect to see the Military price at $1500 or below.

So, 2x the price of the current M4, and 1/2 the cost of the 416, with performance far above either.

Similar actions recruited good foreigners into our forces.

and in 1000 rd lots

.30/rd isn't happening. I'd be happy if we could just get it regularly for under $1/rd.

That's what I guessed, thank you for clarifying.

As for the rest, mostly agree.

America, and the military from where it draws its people, has no sense of history.

When talking about SOCOM-peculiar Mods for a very small sub-set of gunfighters you can't use the argument that you're going to field it for the entire GP Force.  It may be too expensive for the benefit it gives a fraction of the Army that might actually see or even shoot a bad guy.

The Army uses a tool called DOTMLPF to figure out whether the juice is worth the squeeze.  We don't like throwing away free money like drunk Democrats because we know we have to pay for a boat-load of mission-essential vice mission-enhancing stuff.

"Oh, we can pay for a few brigades worth of SOPMOD stuff for Leg brigades by de-funding a few Chinooks!"

True, and you can save a shit-ton more by cutting combat pay for guys whose feet aren't actually standing in bloody dirt as well.  You'll know that's being considered when every pogue not hearing crack-thumps bitches to their congress-critter.

After my last 2 years in DC, I non-concur.

And being pogue infantry, I would argue that actually infantry battalion MTOE weapon systems should generally have whatever the hotness is.

Leg brigades are doing the same shit all the cool guy brigades are doing.  Certainly don't need it above the BN level (and I simply place it at battalion because that is the AA level)

The infantry Joe generally has equipment he doesn't use to its limits, not because he doesn't want to but because he doesn't know how.

Joe does what he's taught.  NCOs teach what they were taught.  With something as basic as the M4/M16 most will never confirm a day/night zero at 200, 300, and further on a real KD range or steel E-type silhouette farm because that's not how the Army sets up ranges.  25 Meters in the black and you're good!

Imagine if every kid from E1-E4 could see with his own eyeballs where his bullets hit on a silhouette, and the difference in impact points with M855, A1, and tracer (with irons, ACOG, PEQ, and goggles).

Pull the lever, take the banana.

Of course every field grade officer who went to school with M14s or has seen a sniper movie thinks an HK, 7.62, or 6.5 is The Magic Bullet if we could get it into an M4-size package.

Back to original point, the M855A1 bullet is generally the same length as a Sierra 77, but being lighter it beats an M855 out of the muzzle for uncork velocity out of the barrel.

Interesting timing.

You make me sad.

I wish I could argue the point...

Preach it Sir....

I did my Penance in a Guard Light Inf BN my last two years. We picked up brand new M4MWS's along with PEQ2's and M68's.

The full timers were taught how to install all the RAS kits to turn M4's int MWS.  Even got Laser Bore sight kits to help bore sight all the new toys...

How many of the NCO's at the Squad/Plt level knew anything about all this stuff....??? and we had some sharp former Active guys in the mix... very few...
I was pretty knowledgeable at that time as I was starting to seek out training outside the Military...(Took my First Pat Roger class in 03)
But I was trapped in the institution that was Big Army...

On Range day, I had all I could do with my Platoon to get them to stop trying to line up the Aimpoint dot with the Front sight post when we hit the zero range...
And Our 1SGT was more concerned about having everyone in the same uniform and making sure the carry handles were mounted on a spare rail so no one lost them.....
And everyone had to have there KAC gangster grip either on of off... cause..uniformity... And the way they wanted everyone to have there slings set up.... pure re tart 101

And training on the PEQ2's was going to be non existent....

Yeah, we get a lot of cool stuff, but rarely get the chance to become SME's on it...

The Soviets had a much better outlook... and why the first position on an AK/AKM after safe... was Full auto.... They knew what there troops could do and set up there gear to achieve it.... We think everyone is SOCOM trained ,cause they got the SOPMOD kit but reality is far from it...

May the ghost of Vorgrimmler (PBUH) haunt you in your dreams.

he was led astray by the infidel battle rifle caliber

when he began with .30Carbine and 8mm Kurz, and his rifles were pure and assault-y

and then they were perverted

every shot fired from a G3 is a blasphemy and an insult to Vorgrimmler

are open-bolt mag-fed weapons less prone to FTF than belt-fed?

*click*

reject your Slavic Franco-Iberian peasantness (peasantry? peasanthood?) inferiority

embrace the gas operated rotating bolt and the SCHV

embrace superiority

is M855A1 exportable (to civilians)?

history repeats itself
the US once again adopts a cartridge without the rest of NATO (not that that really matters)

how well do non-M4/M16 handle M855A1?

By non m4/m16 do you mean the 416? If so, it shoots it well but feeds it terribly. Ask @joglee for the visual evidence

You rang!
Attached File


And no, from what I understand about magazines and M855A1, I don't see any way Pmags fix the chamber damage. Once the rounds tip reaches the feed ramp(what Pmags fix) the round is going to strike that feed chamfer on the chamber face.

Don't you think the Warcomp would be in the URG-I if it was all that and a bag of chips?

You keep throwing all these wiz bang items out there that are either completely untested and look terrible in execution(SF AROC) or were tested and turned down and not chosen(SF Warcomp). The government won't get a 50% cut on those whiz bang parts, SOCOM pays basically retail pricing for the RIS II and such parts as is.

Also government laws keep anyone from just buying a full fledged FN rifle. Legally the Army must run a full and open competition to buy a new rifle.

These laws were put in place so we never have another M14 debacle on our hands...ideally.

Lastly I wouldn't call a new barrel, rail system, and charging handle a very large change. Was the M4 vs the M4A1 a very large change? Because that is on the same level of change, new rail, barrel, and charging handle. It's this big huge, giant revolutionary never heard of change you're making it out to be.

Hk416, which a lot of the EU is adopting with their whole "EU only competitions", not well at all.

Can M855A1 be owned? Yes, it's no more AP than M855 by law. It will probably take a long time till we see it sell like M855 though due to all of it going to the various government people using it.