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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:29:16 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow. So me trying to help clear air is me being an ATF agent or a schill…you all can go pound sand…what a great community to be in huh. No you don’t admit guilt…many of just can’t comprehend basic written English… Good luck. I’m out. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: @nexttime ... that isn't an admission of being a felon ... That sure looks like you are admitting (certifying) to having (what the ATF calls) an SBR.  Exactly, my personal theory is that @thehun06 is actually an AFT agent or just an informant trying to work for some sort of credit to get out of trouble. Once you submit that form as is, you are admitting you are felon WHICH IS WHY THEY CALL THIS AMNESTY.... Wow. So me trying to help clear air is me being an ATF agent or a schill…you all can go pound sand…what a great community to be in huh. No you don’t admit guilt…many of just can’t comprehend basic written English… Good luck. I’m out. @thehun06 One of us is trying to help avoid millions of law abiding citizens from becoming political prisoners of a leftist controlled police state using unconstitutional laws against us. I'm good with you leaving the thread and I sure many more people will be much safer without you trying to convince them that there is no issue here. Because there is a huge fucking issue with this trap and people need to fucking know. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:29:58 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just so I’m clear, I have zero respect for anything, or anyone related, or involved with government. I can agree with that. Which is why I’m surprised at the rush to stamp, in the thread. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:30:52 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yet people will remove and hide bump stock, FRT, braces, high capacity magazines, like they are stick’n it to the man. Not machine guns, and to lessor extent suppressors. Maybe it’s the bravado of saying fuck the ATF, I’m going boating with my bump stock. Maybe they are more scared and keep their pie holes shut about their machine guns. Can't have a boating accident with a bumpstock. Damn things float to the surface. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:34:17 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't have a boating accident with a bumpstock. Damn things float to the surface. That is the story of my life. Everything I wanted to sink floated and everything I wanted to float sank. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:34:31 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For me, yes. I've tried to follow their rules, but they keep changing them. They are operating way outside of their lane now. This whole proposal is bunk for nearly a half dozen reasons. 1. Too big of a change from the last proposal. Needs a new comment period. 2. ATF does not have ability create new/criminal law, only Congress does. 3. Law of Lenity of statue is ambiguous (it is not, but the ATF is trying to make it that way and provide their own definition) 4. Law of Lenity if rules are ambiguous (everything in the proposal is ambiguous) 5. After a decade and over a dozen approval letters, precedent has been set. That makes sense. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:34:40 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @thehun06 One of us is trying to help avoid millions of law abiding citizens from becoming political prisoners of a leftist controlled police state using unconstitutional laws against us. I'm good with you leaving the thread and I sure many more people will be much safer without you trying to convince them that there is no issue here. Because there is a huge fucking issue with this trap and people need to fucking know. That's exactly what an ATF agent would say. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:34:47 PM EST
[#7]
This forum has become completely unhinged on this topic.
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:35:02 PM EST
[#8]
Specific to the M&P 15-22 factory pistol, couldn’t someone theoretically buy a whole new factory 15-22 rifle then swap the 16” upper onto the pistol, then register that as an SBR with a paid stamp. Then swap the short upper back on along with a full stock once it’s approved? Then be left with an SBR and a regular 16” rifle? I don’t think the factory pistol says “pistol” on it anywhere.
Or is that like 3 felonies? 
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:35:34 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can agree with that. Which is why I’m surprised at the rush to stamp, in the thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just so I’m clear, I have zero respect for anything, or anyone related, or involved with government. I can agree with that. Which is why I’m surprised at the rush to stamp, in the thread. Have you ever seen the guys that tell cops “be safe”, or “thank you for your service”? This is them. Badge bunnies. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:36:40 PM EST
[#10]
Still don't think the atf can waive taxes congress has levied
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:38:30 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be my assumption for the ones who actually are in violation. Having an unregistered one has been illegal for nearly a century. Unlike the current situation with the others, that's well known and has been for a very long time. So, in 1939, was everyone at the local hardware store bitching about the $200 tax stamp and talking about their boating accidents? Now we’ve just gotten use to it. It like people definitely believe they will be prosecuted for a machine gun, but not so much with a bump stock or brace. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:38:37 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @nexttime well you do you ... but I won't stand for people that gaslight like on the 88 days thing when they don't themselves understand NFA ... or NCIS ... or backgrounds ... There is zero admission of guilt ... you do admit to pursuing compliance to the new rule by filling out a form1 (first of all, personally, I wouldn't be filling out NFA items if I didn't think I could pass the muster) ... you have six options once the 120 day count down starts after it hits the Federal Register ... each need to do as best fits you: 1) Form 1 either regular or tax-exempt...your choice 2) Destroy your brace 3) Destroy your firearm 4) Install a 16" barrel 5) Turn in your firearm to the ATF 6) Non-Compliance Again...not rocket science...but unless the courts strike it down..that is the plan...you pick which route you go... BUT, I think it is absolutely ridiculous for people to jump on ones that are going to go the Form 1 route (tax exempt or not) ... what is also more ridiculous is spreading fakery on processes that do not exist ... just like the GOA attorney who spread this thing like wildfire about the 88 days ... all the YT people were like THEY GOT US ... then the GOA attorney got proven wrong about the 88 days ... So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:40:10 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @thehun06 One of us is trying to help avoid millions of law abiding citizens from becoming political prisoners of a leftist controlled police state using unconstitutional laws against us. I'm good with you leaving the thread and I sure many more people will be much safer without you trying to convince them that there is no issue here. Because there is a huge fucking issue with this trap and people need to fucking know. @nexttime and there are people that have common sense and don’t fear monger either. Or call people ATF agents or schills…it really just shows your character and how incompetent you are at reading the English language… I don’t like this either but I interpret the rule as it is written not based on feeling or emotion…you know like a lawyer or a judge. Which some of you are letting emotions get to you just too much…so much so that anyone opposing anything you say is now the enemy. Pound sand! |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:41:47 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. First off -- let me clarify my personal stance so there is no misunderstanding of where I stand: I will NOT participate in this BATF "brace is really an SBR" illegal overreach, and validate their ruling just so I can save a measly $200 via so-called "amnesty". And I think anyone who does is just emboldening the BATF to take even more. Don't be eager to admit in writing to a crime you didn't commit just to save a few bucks. Well said! |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:42:22 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @nexttime well you do you ... but I won't stand for people that gaslight like on the 88 days thing when they don't themselves understand NFA ... or NCIS ... or backgrounds ... There is zero admission of guilt ... you do admit to pursuing compliance to the new rule by filling out a form1 (first of all, personally, I wouldn't be filling out NFA items if I didn't think I could pass the muster) ... you have six options once the 120 day count down starts after it hits the Federal Register ... each need to do as best fits you: 1) Form 1 either regular or tax-exempt...your choice 2) Destroy your brace 3) Destroy your firearm 4) Install a 16" barrel 5) Turn in your firearm to the ATF 6) Non-Compliance Again...not rocket science...but unless the courts strike it down..that is the plan...you pick which route you go... BUT, I think it is absolutely ridiculous for people to jump on ones that are going to go the Form 1 route (tax exempt or not) ... what is also more ridiculous is spreading fakery on processes that do not exist ... just like the GOA attorney who spread this thing like wildfire about the 88 days ... all the YT people were like THEY GOT US ... then the GOA attorney got proven wrong about the 88 days ... So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 Oh, neat. You're here. Thanks for getting ATF to stick their foot in their mouth. I'll reiterate a general question I had earlier and am genuinely curious about: does ATF have the authority to waive the tax requirement of the Form 1? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:43:11 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @nexttime and there are people that have common sense and don’t fear monger either. Or call people ATF agents or schills…it really just shows your character and how incompetent you are at reading the English language… I don’t like this either but I interpret the rule as it is written not based on feeling or emotion…you know like a lawyer or a judge. Which some of you are letting emotions get to you just too much…so much so that anyone opposing anything you say is now the enemy. Pound sand! @thehun06 Answer Nolo's question above please. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:44:15 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, anyone with a brace that wants to SBR it should take it apart, and submit a standard form 1. Admitting to a felony to save $200 is some smoothbrain shit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have been reading every single thread on braces since the 13th. I have noticed everyone posting in them fall in one of three categories. 1.) People who already have NFA items, already on a "list". do not mind being on a "list". or had plans of SBR-ing items anyways. People that just want to take advantage of the free stamp or get ahead in the wait list. People who are scared and in panic. 2.) People who do not think none of this is right, know the ATF and the powers that be are in the wrong, do not believe they have right to just write laws as they see fit, and will fight this to the end. People who are tired of just giving up 2A rights little by little every decade. People that don't want on their list. Some will not ever comply. 3.) People who seem to have a motive to encourage others to just roll over before it even gets posted in the Federal Register and becomes official. People who do not want others to fight this one bit. Do not even want people to wait and see how this plays out in the courts. People who do not want others to even question any of it and just form 1 their SBRs. People who just want others to give up their rights without wait or question. I can only talk about my internal thought process. I have submitted form 1s and gotten them approved in the past. I lived thru the whole recent form 1 suppressor debacle and I can say the ATF did everything they could to have law abiding citizens arrested. I have non-res CCW in just about every state that allows it. I'm on many many lists. That's not my concern. My concern is that an agency that is known for killing innocent people is asking people to admit to a felony on the hopes to get something for free later AND not get charged with a felony. Then when people point out how the ATF has admitted and stated that they will take enforcement action against anyone who doesn't get their background check done in time when we have no oversight over the ATF intentionally delaying that background check that is the real issue. It's a scam by the ATF to arrest and jail people who disagree with the current political regime in power. It's that simple. So, am I in group 1, 2 or 3? Yep, anyone with a brace that wants to SBR it should take it apart, and submit a standard form 1. Admitting to a felony to save $200 is some smoothbrain shit. *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:44:37 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. They are not having an amnesty, which by statute is limited to 90 days. There's a lot about this whole thing that's very fucky. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: @nexttime ... that isn't an admission of being a felon ... That sure looks like you are admitting (certifying) to having (what the ATF calls) an SBR. Exactly, my personal theory is that @thehun06 is actually an AFT agent or just a informant trying to work for some sort of credit to get out of trouble. Once you submit that form as is, you are admitting you are felon WHICH IS WHY THEY CALL THIS AMNESTY.... Where do they call it amnesty? I’m pretty sure they call it tax forbearance. Correct. They are not having an amnesty, which by statute is limited to 90 days. There's a lot about this whole thing that's very fucky. But there is no limit to how often an amnesty can be declared. The feds could declare one quarterly if they wanted. Kharn |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:45:06 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, neat. You're here. Thanks for getting ATF to stick their foot in their mouth. I'll reiterate a general question I had earlier and am genuinely curious about: does ATF have the authority to waive the tax requirement of the Form 1? I don’t know how they have that authority honestly. It’s a tax set by congress to be paid to register an NFA firearm. But I’m not a tax lawyer, so maybe they do. I have not looked into that issue yet. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:45:49 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you ever seen the guys that tell cops “be safe”, or “thank you for your service”? This is them. Badge bunnies. Maybe, I think it’s more, ha ha free shit, you suckers who paid or cheap bastard syndrome. I personally do not want to ever volunteer more information than I have to, to an enforcement arm of any government agency until I’m forced to. Certain not over saving $200, when the agency you’re dealing with is on record for lying and or changing their minds on a political whim. Thankfully we have test cases already in the pipeline to see if it’s real or 88 Days Later. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:46:00 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have been reading every single thread on braces since the 13th. I have noticed everyone posting in them fall in one of three categories. 1.) People who already have NFA items, already on a "list". do not mind being on a "list". or had plans of SBR-ing items anyways. People that just want to take advantage of the free stamp or get ahead in the wait list. People who are scared and in panic. 2.) People who do not think none of this is right, know the ATF and the powers that be are in the wrong, do not believe they have right to just write laws as they see fit, and will fight this to the end. People who are tired of just giving up 2A rights little by little every decade. People that don't want on their list. Some will not ever comply. 3.) People who seem to have a motive to encourage others to just roll over before it even gets posted in the Federal Register and becomes official. People who do not want others to fight this one bit. Do not even want people to wait and see how this plays out in the courts. People who do not want others to even question any of it and just form 1 their SBRs. People who just want others to give up their rights without wait or question. I can only talk about my internal thought process. I have submitted form 1s and gotten them approved in the past. I lived thru the whole recent form 1 suppressor debacle and I can say the ATF did everything they could to have law abiding citizens arrested. I have non-res CCW in just about every state that allows it. I'm on many many lists. That's not my concern. My concern is that an agency that is known for killing innocent people is asking people to admit to a felony on the hopes to get something for free later AND not get charged with a felony. Then when people point out how the ATF has admitted and stated that they will take enforcement action against anyone who doesn't get their background check done in time when we have no oversight over the ATF intentionally delaying that background check that is the real issue. It's a scam by the ATF to arrest and jail people who disagree with the current political regime in power. It's that simple. So, am I in group 1, 2 or 3? Yep, anyone with a brace that wants to SBR it should take it apart, and submit a standard form 1. Admitting to a felony to save $200 is some smoothbrain shit. *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. Explain this. What happens when you put a <16” barrel on a rifle?  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:46:37 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:47:28 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why are those that are fuck this brace rule, fuck that bump stock rule, fuck the SBR pistol rule, fuck the FRT rule, not all fuck that 3rd hole rule. Penalties are the same but there seems to be a definite increased level of fear based compliance to the 3rd hole rule. Videos full of “fuck all that”, but not of fuck that 3rd hole. Seems like the 3rd hole instills fear of the ATF coming a knocking. Well for starters the law is pretty clear on that. Putting a brace on my pistol does not make my pistols into what they say. But.... If the ATF tell us the 3rd hole is fine for 10 years, puts out numerous guidance letters saying the extra hole is just fine, almost every manufacture start production lines up with firearms with the 3rd hole, and for what ever reason 40 million end up in the regular Joe Citizens safe, then we would be in a similar situation. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:48:05 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have been reading every single thread on braces since the 13th. I have noticed everyone posting in them fall in one of three categories. 1.) People who already have NFA items, already on a "list". do not mind being on a "list". or had plans of SBR-ing items anyways. People that just want to take advantage of the free stamp or get ahead in the wait list. People who are scared and in panic. 2.) People who do not think none of this is right, know the ATF and the powers that be are in the wrong, do not believe they have right to just write laws as they see fit, and will fight this to the end. People who are tired of just giving up 2A rights little by little every decade. People that don't want on their list. Some will not ever comply. 3.) People who seem to have a motive to encourage others to just roll over before it even gets posted in the Federal Register and becomes official. People who do not want others to fight this one bit. Do not even want people to wait and see how this plays out in the courts. People who do not want others to even question any of it and just form 1 their SBRs. People who just want others to give up their rights without wait or question. I can only talk about my internal thought process. I have submitted form 1s and gotten them approved in the past. I lived thru the whole recent form 1 suppressor debacle and I can say the ATF did everything they could to have law abiding citizens arrested. I have non-res CCW in just about every state that allows it. I'm on many many lists. That's not my concern. My concern is that an agency that is known for killing innocent people is asking people to admit to a felony on the hopes to get something for free later AND not get charged with a felony. Then when people point out how the ATF has admitted and stated that they will take enforcement action against anyone who doesn't get their background check done in time when we have no oversight over the ATF intentionally delaying that background check that is the real issue. It's a scam by the ATF to arrest and jail people who disagree with the current political regime in power. It's that simple. So, am I in group 1, 2 or 3? Yep, anyone with a brace that wants to SBR it should take it apart, and submit a standard form 1. Admitting to a felony to save $200 is some smoothbrain shit. *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. You are not submitting a regular old form 1, you are submitting a special case and by submitting it you are admitting you are in violation of the law and you giving them proof that you are a felon. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:48:06 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. The path they took on bumpstocks is that they were always machineguns. So, even if you had one when they said they were legal, it was still illegal and a machine gun. But in their “enforcement discretion”, they wouldn’t charge you for past conduct. The way I read this rule is pretty much the same. Braced pistols that meet all these new specifics have always been SBRs, but the atf in its enforcement discretion, won’t charge you unless you don’t register it. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:49:49 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The path they took on bumpstocks is that they were always machineguns. So, even if you had one when they said they were legal, it was still illegal and a machine gun. But in their “enforcement discretion”, they wouldn’t charge you for past conduct. The way I read this rule is pretty much the same. Braced pistols that meet all these new specifics have always been SBRs, but the atf in its enforcement discretion, won’t charge you unless you don’t register it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. The path they took on bumpstocks is that they were always machineguns. So, even if you had one when they said they were legal, it was still illegal and a machine gun. But in their “enforcement discretion”, they wouldn’t charge you for past conduct. The way I read this rule is pretty much the same. Braced pistols that meet all these new specifics have always been SBRs, but the atf in its enforcement discretion, won’t charge you unless you don’t register it. Basically trust the ATF despite their record when it comes to honesty. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:51:10 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @nexttime well you do you ... but I won't stand for people that gaslight like on the 88 days thing when they don't themselves understand NFA ... or NCIS ... or backgrounds ... There is zero admission of guilt ... you do admit to pursuing compliance to the new rule by filling out a form1 (first of all, personally, I wouldn't be filling out NFA items if I didn't think I could pass the muster) ... you have six options once the 120 day count down starts after it hits the Federal Register ... each need to do as best fits you: 1) Form 1 either regular or tax-exempt...your choice 2) Destroy your brace 3) Destroy your firearm 4) Install a 16" barrel 5) Turn in your firearm to the ATF 6) Non-Compliance Again...not rocket science...but unless the courts strike it down..that is the plan...you pick which route you go... BUT, I think it is absolutely ridiculous for people to jump on ones that are going to go the Form 1 route (tax exempt or not) ... what is also more ridiculous is spreading fakery on processes that do not exist ... just like the GOA attorney who spread this thing like wildfire about the 88 days ... all the YT people were like THEY GOT US ... then the GOA attorney got proven wrong about the 88 days ... So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:55:24 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t know how they have that authority honestly. It’s a tax set by congress to be paid to register an NFA firearm. But I’m not a tax lawyer, so maybe they do. I have not looked into that issue yet. Thank You for being one of (most) of us! |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:56:04 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain this. What happens when you put a <16” barrel on a rifle? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/479088/99636143-DB43-4665-9EBA-356E8FA7447F_jpe-2680797.JPG It becomes an SBR, which is not illegal if those steps are followed. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:56:07 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is exactly what I proposed. And yes, I know it was meant to be more than a tax; it was meant to be an end-run around the 2nd Amendment back when most everyone knew it to mean what it says (although that was ironically around the time that the Feds started to do whatever they pleased without regard for the Constitution). Your proposed means of processing NFA items is what most rational people would probably conclude is reasonable, compared to the fuck fuck game of submitting your paperwork into the gonkulator that may take 8 months, or may take 14 months. NFA stamps are no longer prohibitively expensive as they were designed to be, thanks to our government's incompetent/malicious monetary policy. BATFE DGAF about the tax, they care about the registration. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:58:23 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 Your claim on the whole 88 days is no different here than any other NFA background … if you get denied for any other reason other than being a felon … you have the opportunity to resubmit under the rule and keep it braced…anyone submitting a NFA item approval should include their social especially if they have a common name… Sure if you end up not wanting to proceed with the form 1 (if you submit a form 1 as a felon you’ve done screwed up)…you can withdrawal and destroy your brace…your pistol is a pistol…yes the NFA has your info on that pistol…but really all that info is already on a 4473 just at your FFL so…agreed…that is not reversible if deciding to bow out of the process and destroying your brace to keep it pistol If you think we all become felons after following one of their outlined of rules…then show me…during the form 1 process you are clear to keep the brace…yes… If you get denied due to a form error…you can resubmit under the same rules…yes If you get denied based on a background…you can resubmit as long as your background doesn’t come back as a person that isn’t allowed to own firearms… Too many people took the 88 days and ran with it cause all sort of issues… I’m happy to be corrected if so…and I appreciate what you all do…much more than the NRA! |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:59:36 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The path they took on bumpstocks is that they were always machineguns. So, even if you had one when they said they were legal, it was still illegal and a machine gun. But in their “enforcement discretion”, they wouldn’t charge you for past conduct. The way I read this rule is pretty much the same. Braced pistols that meet all these new specifics have always been SBRs, but the atf in its enforcement discretion, won’t charge you unless you don’t register it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. The path they took on bumpstocks is that they were always machineguns. So, even if you had one when they said they were legal, it was still illegal and a machine gun. But in their “enforcement discretion”, they wouldn’t charge you for past conduct. The way I read this rule is pretty much the same. Braced pistols that meet all these new specifics have always been SBRs, but the atf in its enforcement discretion, won’t charge you unless you don’t register it. Them changing the definition doesn't make me admit I'm a felon for submitting a form 1. They changed the definition, I can disassemble, destroy, or register. ATF:  |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:59:37 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it went that way, you've spent $50-100K+ defending yourself by that point. You call that a win? To most people that is called financial destruction. Not to mention the emotional trauma on you and your family of being prosecuted by the feds. Win or lose, you still lose. We all have to eventually draw our own line in the sand. Some choose to draw that line on principle, others choose fear, some are too afraid to draw the line at all. I doubt you've ever face death, seen the tracers flying at you in combat, I'm not sure if you really understand what intestinal fortitude really is. Either you take a stand for your principles and Constitution or just take a back seat, please. Warnings are fine, but fear mongering is spineless. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 5:59:37 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It becomes an SBR, which is not illegal if those steps are followed. No, the ATF is saying that it is, and always has been, an SBR. You are admitting to owning it in order to qualify for the free stamp. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:02:14 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  Try to imagine if google, Facebitch and DARPA teemed up to find random bullet points in your posts to meme into irrelevance. Your posts are akin to the mad ramblings of a blind man playing jenga with frozen tampons in a fish market. It's impossible not to mock them.  |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:02:17 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It becomes an SBR, which is not illegal if those steps are followed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Explain this. What happens when you put a <16” barrel on a rifle? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/479088/99636143-DB43-4665-9EBA-356E8FA7447F_jpe-2680797.JPG It becomes an SBR, which is not illegal if those steps are followed. Those steps include admitting to owning an unregistered SBR. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:02:43 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, in 1939, was everyone at the local hardware store bitching about the $200 tax stamp and talking about their boating accidents? Now we’ve just gotten use to it. It like people definitely believe they will be prosecuted for a machine gun, but not so much with a bump stock or brace. For one thing, machine guns are illegal by statute. Bumpstocks and braces aren't. ETA: not illegal, but NFA items |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:04:30 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, the ATF is saying that it is, and always has been, an SBR. You are admitting to owning it in order to qualify for the free stamp. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It becomes an SBR, which is not illegal if those steps are followed. No, the ATF is saying that it is, and always has been, an SBR. You are admitting to owning it in order to qualify for the free stamp. And there's a stack of papers of them saying the opposite in the past, which is why nobody is going to be able to get charged for having one until after the 120 days. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:04:32 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I'm wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @nexttime well you do you ... but I won't stand for people that gaslight like on the 88 days thing when they don't themselves understand NFA ... or NCIS ... or backgrounds ... There is zero admission of guilt ... you do admit to pursuing compliance to the new rule by filling out a form1 (first of all, personally, I wouldn't be filling out NFA items if I didn't think I could pass the muster) ... you have six options once the 120 day count down starts after it hits the Federal Register ... each need to do as best fits you: 1) Form 1 either regular or tax-exempt...your choice 2) Destroy your brace 3) Destroy your firearm 4) Install a 16" barrel 5) Turn in your firearm to the ATF 6) Non-Compliance Again...not rocket science...but unless the courts strike it down..that is the plan...you pick which route you go... BUT, I think it is absolutely ridiculous for people to jump on ones that are going to go the Form 1 route (tax exempt or not) ... what is also more ridiculous is spreading fakery on processes that do not exist ... just like the GOA attorney who spread this thing like wildfire about the 88 days ... all the YT people were like THEY GOT US ... then the GOA attorney got proven wrong about the 88 days ... So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I'm wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 The fucking hero we need. You are the man! Thanks for all you do. PS. I know you, you aren't a fat guy the camera adds 20lbs!! Spartans rule. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:04:39 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Them changing the definition doesn't make me admit I'm a felon for submitting a form 1. They changed the definition, I can disassemble, destroy, or register. ATF: https://media.tenor.com/YU2TlZ--D94AAAAd/office-space-fixed.gif There are two ways to SBR. The normal Form 1, and the free rape candy way where you certify you have an SBR based on the new “rule”. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:07:34 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those steps include admitting to owning an unregistered SBR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Explain this. What happens when you put a <16” barrel on a rifle? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/479088/99636143-DB43-4665-9EBA-356E8FA7447F_jpe-2680797.JPG It becomes an SBR, which is not illegal if those steps are followed. Those steps include admitting to owning an unregistered SBR. It only became redefined an SBR in the last week. Why would I be afraid to admit to buying something that was legal when I bought it? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:10:15 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. They created a special eForm process where you are affirming you are applying for a registration of a pre-existing item. They baited this with ‘tax forebearance’. Your comment is true about the prior existing Form 1 which is asking permission to make an item which does not yet exist lawfully unless made after approval. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:12:34 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your claim on the whole 88 days is no different here than any other NFA background … if you get denied for any other reason other than being a felon … you have the opportunity to resubmit under the rule and keep it braced…anyone submitting a NFA item approval should include their social especially if they have a common name… Sure if you end up not wanting to proceed with the form 1 (if you submit a form 1 as a felon you’ve done screwed up)…you can withdrawal and destroy your brace…your pistol is a pistol…yes the NFA has your info on that pistol…but really all that info is already on a 4473 just at your FFL so…agreed…that is not reversible if deciding to bow out of the process and destroying your brace to keep it pistol If you think we all become felons after following one of their outlined of rules…then show me…during the form 1 process you are clear to keep the brace…yes… If you get denied due to a form error…you can resubmit under the same rules…yes If you get denied based on a background…you can resubmit as long as your background doesn’t come back as a person that isn’t allowed to own firearms… Too many people took the 88 days and ran with it cause all sort of issues… I’m happy to be corrected if so… Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I’m wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 Your claim on the whole 88 days is no different here than any other NFA background … if you get denied for any other reason other than being a felon … you have the opportunity to resubmit under the rule and keep it braced…anyone submitting a NFA item approval should include their social especially if they have a common name… Sure if you end up not wanting to proceed with the form 1 (if you submit a form 1 as a felon you’ve done screwed up)…you can withdrawal and destroy your brace…your pistol is a pistol…yes the NFA has your info on that pistol…but really all that info is already on a 4473 just at your FFL so…agreed…that is not reversible if deciding to bow out of the process and destroying your brace to keep it pistol If you think we all become felons after following one of their outlined of rules…then show me…during the form 1 process you are clear to keep the brace…yes… If you get denied due to a form error…you can resubmit under the same rules…yes If you get denied based on a background…you can resubmit as long as your background doesn’t come back as a person that isn’t allowed to own firearms… Too many people took the 88 days and ran with it cause all sort of issues… I’m happy to be corrected if so… There will be zero to few form 1s under this rule approved during the 120 days. I think we can all agree on that. So IF there is an error on the form, you aren’t going to get to resubmit under the “enforcement discretion” part. You can resubmit, but I am fairly sure you will pay the tax. That is outside the final rule, in a FAQ that the atf posted if I recall correctly. I would rather see it “official” within the final rule, but such is life. If it comes back “open”, it is a nightmare trying to close that “open” status. I have that case pending in DC at this moment and luckily was able to “close” those backgrounds. It usually happens when you have something in your past that the fbi needs to do more research on, but, the FBI is not responsible for doing the backgrounds. The ATF is. I’ve got those docs too. My point on an open denial is simple. After the enforcement discretion ends, and without your tax stamp, you need to take other action to remain complaint with the law. If you don’t have a stamp for that sbr, you are fucked. Doesn’t matter you aren’t prohibited, my clients that couldn’t get approvals on their F1 and F4 weren’t prohibited, but did get open denials. And in that case, at least they weren’t already in possession of the item. This is my concern with this process. Applicants are already in possession of an unstamped sbr subject to the “enforcement discretion” of the atf. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:13:14 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They created a special eForm process where you are affirming you are applying for a registration of a pre-existing item. They baited this with ‘tax forebearance’. Your comment is true about the prior existing Form 1 which is asking permission to make an item which does not yet exist lawfully unless made after approval. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. They created a special eForm process where you are affirming you are applying for a registration of a pre-existing item. They baited this with ‘tax forebearance’. Your comment is true about the prior existing Form 1 which is asking permission to make an item which does not yet exist lawfully unless made after approval. A pre-existing item which has been LEGAL to purchase for years, that can be verified with prior notices from the same agency. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:22:23 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The path they took on bumpstocks is that they were always machineguns. So, even if you had one when they said they were legal, it was still illegal and a machine gun. But in their “enforcement discretion”, they wouldn’t charge you for past conduct. The way I read this rule is pretty much the same. Braced pistols that meet all these new specifics have always been SBRs, but the atf in its enforcement discretion, won’t charge you unless you don’t register it. Does that federal discretion and mere application for tax forebearance give protection from state laws that require proof of NFA registration to not be an illegal SBR throughout the refractory period? My concern is that once the rule is published in the federal register, a braced pistol is an SBR under federal law, and if applied for and waiting for registration to be completed, the feds promise to not proactively seek prosecution. But ATF stated in their Shot Show seminar they were indifferent to illegality created at the state or local level. What good is pacifying a tyrant 2,000 miles away if the locals get to run wild for months/years? |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:23:19 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A pre-existing item which has been LEGAL to purchase for years, that can be verified with prior notices from the same agency. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: *takes breath* IT IS NOT ADMITTING TO A FELONY ATF: "Braces are legal" *10 years go by* ATF: "Nevermind, they are now illegal. For those of you that have them, do A, B, or C to stay legal" Submitting a form 1 is not admitting to anything being illegal. They created a special eForm process where you are affirming you are applying for a registration of a pre-existing item. They baited this with ‘tax forebearance’. Your comment is true about the prior existing Form 1 which is asking permission to make an item which does not yet exist lawfully unless made after approval. A pre-existing item which has been LEGAL to purchase for years, that can be verified with prior notices from the same agency. Yes, that's the 'catch 22' we're stuck at now. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:27:08 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuckin NOLO in the house. Cashing checks and snapping necks. The fucking hero we need. You are the man! Thanks for all you do. PS. I know you, you aren't a fat guy the camera adds 20lbs!! Spartans rule. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: @nexttime well you do you ... but I won't stand for people that gaslight like on the 88 days thing when they don't themselves understand NFA ... or NCIS ... or backgrounds ... There is zero admission of guilt ... you do admit to pursuing compliance to the new rule by filling out a form1 (first of all, personally, I wouldn't be filling out NFA items if I didn't think I could pass the muster) ... you have six options once the 120 day count down starts after it hits the Federal Register ... each need to do as best fits you: 1) Form 1 either regular or tax-exempt...your choice 2) Destroy your brace 3) Destroy your firearm 4) Install a 16" barrel 5) Turn in your firearm to the ATF 6) Non-Compliance Again...not rocket science...but unless the courts strike it down..that is the plan...you pick which route you go... BUT, I think it is absolutely ridiculous for people to jump on ones that are going to go the Form 1 route (tax exempt or not) ... what is also more ridiculous is spreading fakery on processes that do not exist ... just like the GOA attorney who spread this thing like wildfire about the 88 days ... all the YT people were like THEY GOT US ... then the GOA attorney got proven wrong about the 88 days ... So the GOA lawyer in the video (the fat guy on the left), is me. Tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to admit I'm wrong. Show me where it was proven that I am wrong. What I said, not what others have said about what I said. @thehun06 The fucking hero we need. You are the man! Thanks for all you do. PS. I know you, you aren't a fat guy the camera adds 20lbs!! Spartans rule. He's skinnier than me.
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:28:00 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A pre-existing item which has been LEGAL to purchase for years, that can be verified with prior notices from the same agency. Not if it’s built from a stripped receiver. There are plenty of previously lawful braced pistols built with privately acquired parts. Those are the prize flies in the honey pot. |
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:28:19 PM EST
[#49]
Have any lawsuits been filed yet?
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Posted: 1/21/2023 6:28:23 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There will be zero to few form 1s under this rule approved during the 120 days. I think we can all agree on that. So IF there is an error on the form, you aren’t going to get to resubmit under the “enforcement discretion” part. You can resubmit, but I am fairly sure you will pay the tax. That is outside the final rule, in a FAQ that the atf posted if I recall correctly. I would rather see it “official” within the final rule, but such is life. If it comes back “open”, it is a nightmare trying to close that “open” status. I have that case pending in DC at this moment and luckily was able to “close” those backgrounds. It usually happens when you have something in your past that the fbi needs to do more research on, but, the FBI is not responsible for doing the backgrounds. The ATF is. I’ve got those docs too. My point on an open denial is simple. After the enforcement discretion ends, and without your tax stamp, you need to take other action to remain complaint with the law. If you don’t have a stamp for that sbr, you are fucked. Doesn’t matter you aren’t prohibited, my clients that couldn’t get approvals on their F1 and F4 weren’t prohibited, but did get open denials. And in that case, at least they weren’t already in possession of the item. This is my concern with this process. Applicants are already in possession of an unstamped sbr subject to the “enforcement discretion” of the atf. ATF does state errors can be fixed and it is covered under the rule’s tax-exemption but resubmits have to go via paper vs eform… 120 days is the compliance date after it goes into effect once in the Federal Register NOT the window of approval. The approval could be like many NFA items beyond 120 days…your submittal per the rule keeps your brace to be in compliance whether the initial approval or resubmitted approval happens within 120 days or not is irrelevant. Possession is a pistol…upon approval it’s a SBR… If a person decides not to resubmit then they must destroy their brace or install 16” or destroy/forfeit their firearm to ATF… If denied or no longer pursuing form1 approval…but you keep your brace on it…after the 120 days from federal register…it is a classified as an unapproved SBR…and that’s a fact driven felony at that point… That is how it is written… |
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