Fuck all the governments involved.

We've always been at war with Oceania

You wrote damn near an essay. I have no desire to go line by line and prove each false hood.

Cute.

Woohooo!!!

Whole thread is Russian propaganda vs globalist propaganda talking points being argued back and forth.

While the intelligent people state they are sorry that this has happened but “fuck em” as they think the USA shouldn’t get involved militarily or financially.

The Globalist believers hate the intelligent people most of all and accuse them of being Russian bots. Lol…

Fuck this shit is retarded.

Much respect Sir.

Observation: most of the Z-bros are Never_Trumpers.

Observation 2: most of the Never_Trumpers are using the same server.

Consider this: is there any policy or cause pushed by the DNC in general and the Biden administration in specific that is not awful for America and American citizens?  If not, then why does this one get a pass without even being allowed to question it's utility?

Well, I just want to say:

Hopefully our government can get this right after that monumental clusterfuck that was Afghanistan for nearly twenty years.

If I was a foreign power I'd of course look at the US's stupendously ridiculous evacuation that resulted in the death of 13 good Americans and say, "they don't have the balls to get involved."

But after four years of a guy in power that no one liked and no invasions of other countries by Russia, we suddenly get invasions of other countries by Russia.

And the same people who were saying how "we told Biden's admin about the Taliban and this would happen" regarding the Afghanistan pull out are the same ones saying "Putin totally sucks and we'll show him!  Don't support the Orcs!"

Maybe we're just better at driving someone else's army than our own military.  We beat the Taliban in a matter of months with air support and spec ops and then couldn't figure out who was supplying weapons and supporting the Taliban for twenty years.  

Russia sucks.  There's no doubt about it.  It's funny that in 2014 our IC seemingly got upset realizing that the Russians were using social media to influence people like they had been doing successfully since the Arab Spring.  It's bad when Russia does it.  it's bad when Orange Man uses social media, but it's especially bad when Orange Man and Putin are best friends!  The invasion of Crimea in 2014?

I'll just leave this here albeit I don't have VDH's optimism and support for the some people.  

Now we have our government who has to prove they still got it post-Afghanistan and the Russians who are...Russian/Putin and are sort of in a similar conundrum.  

Sums up the cognitive effort of 87% of this site. "The media says that airline crash was bad, therefore i think its good... I'm a critical thinker!"

Dupe

Lol. In a thread of idiocy, that still leaves a stench.
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Because freedom, man.  Democracy is at stake.  USA against USSR man

We have to replace what we send.  Our ammunition stockpiles (in some critical areas) are depleted by giving shit away.

In WWII, we charged for it (Lend-Lease).  We had to raise war bonds to pay for the war and to build the ships, planes, trucks, and weapons we sold our allies.

Sell Ukraine arms to defend itself?  Sure.  Loan them the money to buy the arms to defend themselves?  Sure.  Go deeper into debt and inflation printing money to give Ukraine arms (and to have percentage com back as 'political donations' to the D's - and more  laundered through their 'foundations', 'businesses' and K Street lobbyists)?  Hell no.

Ukraine sold jet engines and tank parts to Russia for years.  Ukraine could have taken the threat seriously and gotten ready for war.  But, nah, the US will pay for it.

Ukraine banned all exports of military equipment to Russia after 2014.

Of course they were exporting stuff before then, they were a vassal state existing at the whim of the Kremlin, left to their own devices as long as they paid tribute.

Americans shouldn't care about anything.
Winning.

Oh, like it's changed...  

The ongoing actions and multifaceted soft warfare China is conducting, to bring this country to it's knees, is unbelievably massive in its scale and unbelievably massive as an actual threat to America. No other country comes anywhere close.

To devote this ongoing concern over Russia/Ukraine while China gets back-burnered is absolutely moronic.

This country has ONE major geopolitical threat and that's China. Russia/Ukraine are nothing by comparison. Nothing.

The ongoing devotion and tunnel vision about Russia/Ukraine is mind boggling.

It would be like looking at the Axis powers in WWII and developing an obsession about all things Bulgaria, while Germany absolutely crushes all of Europe. Russia/Ukraine are distractions.

This thread reads just like a Twitter post on Ukraine. I think you're all bots

Why should I care about what you choose to care about?

Laughing at your reasons for not caring, though…

Why would one virtue signal about not caring so hard?

They are far from distractions, they are examples and warnings.

China is not facing anything resembling the institutions and agreements that have shaped post-war Europe, and ostensibly could and should have prevented Russia from doing what it's been doing since 2014.

Inability for the entire European security cooperation apparatus and the U.S. to stop or even stand up to Russia would have sent a clear signal to China that Taiwan and the south China sea is fair game.

But, I doubt you want to hear that, as it doesn't suit your false dichotomy.

Whatever moral qualms you have about the Ukrainian Government, right or wrong, Russia is an adversary to the United States.  A huge swath of the woke propaganda that we've seen over the last decade or so has been specifically funded by Russia to piss people like us off here in the States.  They want us divided, disinterested and declared.  

Sensing blood in the water after the retreat in Afghanistan, Putin decided to push his luck in the Ukraine.  The largest invasion in Europe since World War II.  

Why?

Because Ukraine was run by Nazis.  You know else calls people Nazis?  

In truth, the government in Ukraine was much friendlier to the West and after his preferred leader was overthrown he decided to move in and install a new leader who was much friendlier to Russia or more specifically Putin.  It's his MO and we've seen it multiple times.

The problem is that Ukraine has been trying to break away from Russian influence for almost a decade if not more.  They don't WANT him. They NEVER wanted him.  So now the people in Ukraine have two options, fight or surrender.  

It looked bleak as fuck for that first couple of months but since they they've started retaking territory and are looking like they might actually achieve victory.

So why does this matter to YOU?

Simple. We aren't an island like we were pre-WW1. We live the greatest era of peace since the Pax Romana.  Sure there have been small-scale wars since the end of WW2, but large nation states simply don't go to war with each other anymore.  The economic pain of doing so is just too great.

Russia threatens all that. From a short sighted view Russia and Ukraine's business is no one else's.  From a LONG term view, it's absolutely everyone's business. What if Russia decided it didn't Ike the turnout of a Polish Election?

Or a German one?

Or an American one?

If Russia can succeed here why would they stop?

Do you want your grandchildren fighting Russians or if they could be stopped NOW why shouldn't we stop them?

If suddenly our 2nd largest adversary who has been actively funding division here in the United States could be stopped, and we could do it without shedding American blood WHY WOULDNT WE DO SO?

If you could end China RIGHT now without getting a American killed, what kind of price would you pay for that?

But since it's Ukraine the answer is 0 dollars because Russia has pushed propaganda HARD that it's not our fight because the Ukraine is Nazis line didn't work.

Russia IS our enemy. The know it and you should know it.

They have already been fighting us for years and want us to throw in the towel.

Do you want more woke propaganda in your face?

If so throw in the towel.  Russia will end Ukraine and divert more funds towards programs like Drag queen story hour to keep you disillusioned.

Do you want to have ANOTHER conflict in Europe in 5 years?

If so throw in the towel.  Russia will rebuild its forces and look west further once it sees an opportunity.

Do you want a perpetually weak United States on the international stage?

If so throw in the towel.  A wide variety of countries will refuse to work with us or give us worse deals if we look weak on an international stage.

And yes. Europe should be giving more, but they simply don't have what we have in the amounts that we do.  It's just the way it is.

I'll sum it up real short.  Russia is the greatest threat to peace right now and is our 2nd largest rival behind China.  They've actively funded division here in the states and don't mind killing 10s of thousands of other or their own people to achieve their goals.  If you could take out the 2nd largest rival to the United States that has ACTIVELY worked to destroy a d undermine us without shedding a drop of American blood, WHY WOULDN'T YOU DO THIS?

This Carnegie Endowment article  says that as of July 2014 existing contracts would be honored (this bears that out ).  Otherwise the internet is devoid of references to Ukrainian arms sales to Russia - but interestingly they are still selling arms  to other countries.

Notice that China is Ukraine's biggest arms customer .  39% of sales.  Russia was 13%.

As a primary arms supplier to China, in that sense, Ukraine is the accomplice of our major competitor.

So you are in the 13% that applies some sort of effective cognitive effort ? The media could report that a plane crashed and I'd wait two days before I believed it unless I saw it myself. Maybe The View, SNL, or various late show hosts are credible enough for you, I don't know.

Thats a question only you can answer. Why do you care so much? Enough to post on a public forum about it.

NATO has become an impotent toothless tiger dependent on the US to provide any credence to the Alliance as a deterrent.  Only the central European (ex-Warsaw Pact) member states take defense seriously.  The British have reduced their armed forces to a vestige.  The Bundeswehr is hollow - all that talk about spending an extra 100 million Euros and increasing the defense budget was just talk that's blown away.  The French won't commit.  The Benelux is immaterial.  Norway is too.

So NATO failed to provide a credible deterrent to Russian imperialism in Ukraine.  And now NATO and the EU (which overlap in a Venn diagram) expect the US to carry the load.

So that signal has been sent to China.  China knows that Taiwan and the South China Sea is fair game - only China's internal issues hold them back.

Let an exile Russian explain it to you:



ETA: If you were the type who thought Q-ANON might have had something to it during the run-up to 2020, then you especially might want to watch the video.

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EDIT: I care. Personally because Russia is an enemy of ours. I think Russia is in the wrong for invading and especially the indiscriminate terror bombing going on. Therefore I'm rooting for Ukraine as I think they're nowhere near as bad as Russia.

If site staff can verify that assertion, they should all catch a ban hammer for being obvious propaganda pushers.

Sir, if you ever get to AZ, an air tour and lunch are on me.

I keep seeing people say "Russia is our enemy" and "Russia is the #2 threat to the US behind China".

How so, exactly?  They couldn't successfully invade the US if WE provided the fucking transport.  Judging by their UKR performance, they would get exactly 10 miles inland and be WIPED OUT by civilians and cops.

They simply aren't a physical threat.

Unless you count their nukes.

Well, if you count that as THE threat posed to us by Russia, then the current thing makes no sense because we are increasing the nuclear threat with out interventions, not reducing it.

Hmmm.  How about economic threat?

I keep seeing that their GDP is about the same as the State of Vermont.  They are having a population implosion.  Their industries are known for poor QC and poor output.  

So, no, they aren't an economic threat.

That leaves social/cultural.

They are allegedly "Commies".  That isn't an issue, because those who control the United States are also Communists.

What else?

They are a misogynistic, Orthodox Christian nation with primarily Christian traditions.  They are anti LGBT, anti Muslim, and anti-Globalist.  They are extremely nationalist.  

That is the only way they could possibly considered a "threat" and that is only a threat to the Ruling Left.

What am I missing?  

YES!

I thought 1984 was supposed to be dystopian fiction, not a documentary....

NATO is close again and expanding, munitions production is ramped up to 3x it's prewar levels, we are learning things every day, the world is in awe of US weapons and laughing at Russian/Soviet ones and orders are coming in for US weapons at a steady clip and you think we are less prepared than before?

And hey, if we want to make no arms sales to China a part of the deal, well, we'd be wrong not to. There is a win.

We are not bots, we are underscores.

That's certainly an interesting way to spin the history.

And neither NATO nor the EU really come into play with Ukraine, outside of Russian claims of the insecurity either if their further expansion into Ukraine might cause. For that to be accepted, it would be hard to also accept that "impotent toothless tiger" perception and then latch on to the EU by proxy.

The institutions that are more at play here relate to the UN in general (which has been all but worthless in such matters, save for the one time China still can't forget, in Korea), the CSCE/OSCE/ODIHR, the Budapest Memorandum, all of which Russia has been a major player in from their founding. The issue isn't one of stopping Russian expansionism - as they clearly have not, the issue is one of the consequences of such expansionism - to include sanctions and political support as well as military contributions.

The military contributions from third parties bit is, I would argue the least significant aspect here as China is not facing anything akin to a NATO or EU and associated politics, just the military and political/diplomatic/economic might of one country, the U.S. It's that one country whose resolve and competence in those categories they must now judge in relation to Ukraine, something that must also judge in relation to the diplomatic and economic reaction of other major players as a result of Russian actions.

Based on this, the argument the U.S. should do less because "China" strikes me as horribly unsound at best, or quite "useful" at worst.

This is WHY we are where we are today, people.

No one has the time, patience, or attention span beyond that of a fruit fly to actually study a subject and debate it, long form, based on facts and logic.

Just listen to Fox News, CNN, or your favorite psuedo-intellectual talking head and regurgitate their pre-programmed horseshit.

Don't do the scholarship. Don't read books on how the United States has injected itself in multiple 'police actions' since WWII never to win but always to provide the military-industrial complex with a reason to be.  Don't study both sides of the conflict, and try to understand beyond the propaganda machine what is actually happening.  

Just tell the other guy TL;DR, say you don't have the time/desire to make counterpoints when, in reality, you don't have the ability to actually do so.

This intellectual laziness is what the powers that be are counting on.  

Congratulations, you've played yourselves.

Russia is threatening you. At what point do you stand up to a bully who is threatening you?

Just because it's a gun forum doesn't mean you can't have empathy.

When people are killing civilians for no good reason, or even if it's a good political reason, it's still bullshit. You don't just lob missiles into apartment buildings for political reasons. Fuck Russia, fuck Putin, and fuck all you sympathizers.

These are people's families that are getting killed for absolutely no good reason. I'm sure you all have experienced that, right? Idiots. Hopefully someone Attila the Huns out of yours, then we'll see how you feel about raping and murdering kids, women, and civilians just for the hell of it.

So Russia funded take your kid to drag show night at church. And they also promoted LGBQT nonsense. And I guess they were behind the 2020 riots?

Just when are we fighting Russia? Or my kids for that matter? Last time I checked they were doing well just to take the eastern oblasts of Ukraine. So tell me exactly how they’ll project force into Western Europe and transatlantic.

I’ve noticed the opposite.

A big part yea.  They funded ads, blm, created events etc.

Beyond that a big part of the reason they're struggling is because.... we sent equipment over.

What if we didn't and Ukraine fell?  Would it have stopped there?

Wat? What kind of red herring argument is that? One thing has nothing to do with the other, no matter which viewpoint you have.

While you are correct about the first part, just because our .gov is corrupt automatically means we can't help stop an enemy from killing civilians? I don't get your point.

Why don't you give a flying fuck about your ally killing civilians in Yemen, or about your ally killing civilians in Armenia though ?

The Yemen conflict has caused all sorts of drama and falling out with the Saudis, complete with them making gestures towards Russia out of frustration with our withholding weapons sales.

The U.S. has done far more than Russian to resolves the recent attack in Armenia and rein in the Azerbaijanis. Meanwhile, the CSTO has been shown to be nothing more than a cynical tool of Russian foreign policy.

Do you have a point that doesn't undermine itself?

I dont care one iota about Ukraine.
I care about cheap oil and US dollar world reserve currency status, having Russia sell oil in US dollars in perpetuity.

They're an atheist society famous for institutionalized sodomy with a Muslim enforcer caste. Their state elites define nationalism as Nazi evil because it undermines their multi-ethnic, multicultural empire - which their academic elites teach has a birthright, through the Heartland, to globalist domination (despite that GDP).

What else...nukes. If Putin pulling strategic forces maintenance and operations personnel off the line for a dog's death in Ukraine doesn't count as degrading the nuclear threat in a low-risk way, what possibly could?

Ukraine is the proxy for globohomo/NATO, whom I hate

Ukraines propaganda and messaging is incredibly cringe & gay, their "leader" is a pompous cunt, they've been more than happy to be playing dangerous games with internal corruption and antagonizing Russia for years and now when shit gets real they grovel to the world for "gibs me money to fight the evil Putin"

Ukraine being controlled by Russia will be a much better outcome than it being the next official rainbow flag vassal state/bitch of USA INC.

I warmly look forward to the day they finally get down on their knees and the entire West has a soy fueled bitch fit about it