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If RRA's lobbying and the resulting legislation was through negligence/accident and not through premeditated selfishness or malice why terminate arfcom's relationship with them? I get that the connection could reflect poorly on arfcom but it seems like a kneejerk reaction that would make gun companies wary of joining the site. |
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We weighed our personal thoughts on things and felt that negligence in this case, even if not malicious, was still their responsibility. As such they put the IL firearm community at risk. Is it fair? Maybe not, but life is tough and when things are critically important, you get more involved before the damage is done. Now they face an uphill battle. 1657 passed the senate by 1 vote. Quoted:
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If RRA's lobbying and the resulting legislation was through negligence/accident and not through premeditated selfishness or malice why terminate arfcom's relationship with them? I get that the connection could reflect poorly on arfcom but it seems like a kneejerk reaction that would make gun companies wary of joining the site. 
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The current leadership is either corrupt or fucking retarded . I do feel sorry for people like Legal Transfers in the EE. Anti-gunners must be laughing their asses off. Like Ray Liotta in Goodfellas meme laughing their asses off. |
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This is what I question. From what I heard, donating to Madigan is like giving money to Bloomberg for all the good it will do. |
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It's not so much that they donated money to get heard it's who they gave money to. It's like giving money to Obama and expecting him to come out against Muslims. It's a fucking waste of time and resources and your giving money to your biggest enemy. Madigan and Cullerton are in the pocket of Bloomberg and are as rabidly anti gun as any politician in the country. Every bit as bad as Feinstien and Shumer This is how the game works and this is how votes are altered. When we get a big win by close votes, how do you think that happens? Yes, it's ugly, but it does involve lining people's pockets who are our enemies. |
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Time and more light. Until I'm totally convinced I'm out on RRA and SA. This pains me as I was a huge Springfield fan. No more for me. ETA: Thanks for your diligence on the matter |
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Lobbyists are by definition people that push their employers message. No way I'd believe that a lobbyist wasn't doing exactly what the person that hired them wanted them to do. And pay to play? I am fairly sure that is a crime. Quoted:
Lobbyists are by definition people that push their employers message. No way I'd believe that a lobbyist wasn't doing exactly what the person that hired them wanted them to do. And pay to play? I am fairly sure that is a crime. This part below is why our Republic is fucking dead, dead, dead, RFN, put a nail in it and just keep re-electing the royalty: I also spent time speaking to a number of lobbyists, across different states, in regards to donations to speak to representatives. In the case of IFMA, there were donations made to anti gun politicians, which folks have questioned. From what I was able to learn, it is commonplace to have to "pay" for your voice to be heard. Most often it's in smaller amounts, but I did hear that the amounts "required" can be quite staggering. Understand that this is JUST to be able to discuss their lobby's position and try to convince them of how their vote could impact business and communities in the state. |
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Money is arms in politics. You should no more give money to your enemy than send rifles across the trenches in the hopes they won't attack you.
I will never buy anything from SA or RRA. Not in an angry sort of way, but just because I don't want to give money to someone that gives money to the enemy. There are plenty of other companies to support. |
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I refuse to benefit groups like Everytown, by attacking our own. |
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LOL. Absolute Bullshit. Again, a company knows without a doubt what its own lobbyists do. This little group they founded was theirs, it was their guy and their money. It's not like they were members of some giant trade group with thousands of members and hundreds of employees. It was like 5 fucking people! Anyone who believes that RRA/SA had no idea this was happening and were just innocent victims of a rogue lobbyist is being willfully obtuse (for whatever reason). This wasn't a poorly-worded, off-the-cuff comment over drinks that got retracted as soon as it leaked, this was going on for quite a while and involved important, industry-impacting legislation being drafted, reviewed, and voted upon. How can anyone honestly buy into the "we had no idea that was happening, what a surprise" bullshit? Thank you for cutting RRA loose, and maybe the next company thinking about selling out gun owners will think twice. Let them both burn. |
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Remind me to tell you what I know about NRA ILA sometime, it's very good and uplifting. Quoted:
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I don't think you're missing anything, they (NRA ILA) more or less told me that defeating the bill was priority not going after S/A or R/R. I asked em not to go after em but at least shed light on the anti gun campaign donations. They said enough was already written on the subject. I can give you the complete conversation if you like. |
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This. It was either intentional or they are inept. I do feel sorry for people like Legal Transfers in the EE. Anti-gunners must be laughing their asses off. Like Ray Liotta in Goodfellas meme laughing their asses off. |
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Lobbyists are by definition people that push their employers message. No way I'd believe that a lobbyist wasn't doing exactly what the person that hired them wanted them to do. And pay to play? I am fairly sure that is a crime. |
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Apparently, this needs to be quoted and repeated over and over again until starts to sink in. Anyone who believes that RRA/SA had no idea this was happening and were just innocent victims of a rogue lobbyist is being willfully obtuse (for whatever reason). This wasn't a poorly-worded, off-the-cuff comment over drinks that got retracted as soon as it leaked, this was going on for quite a while and involved important, industry-impacting legislation being drafted, reviewed, and voted upon. How can anyone honestly buy into the "we had no idea that was happening, what a surprise" bullshit? Thank you for cutting RRA loose, and maybe the next company thinking about selling out gun owners will think twice. Let them both burn. Quoted:
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LOL. Absolute Bullshit. Again, a company knows without a doubt what its own lobbyists do. This little group they founded was theirs, it was their guy and their money. It's not like they were members of some giant trade group with thousands of members and hundreds of employees. It was like 5 fucking people! Anyone who believes that RRA/SA had no idea this was happening and were just innocent victims of a rogue lobbyist is being willfully obtuse (for whatever reason). This wasn't a poorly-worded, off-the-cuff comment over drinks that got retracted as soon as it leaked, this was going on for quite a while and involved important, industry-impacting legislation being drafted, reviewed, and voted upon. How can anyone honestly buy into the "we had no idea that was happening, what a surprise" bullshit? Thank you for cutting RRA loose, and maybe the next company thinking about selling out gun owners will think twice. Let them both burn. 
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I live in Illinois and this affects me greatly. I've personally spoken to both RRA and SA about this and voiced my disappointment with them. I will never forgive nor forget what has happened due to their lack of oversight ( so they say). But at this point, the enemy of my enemy is my friend/ally.... At least for now. Once we defeat SB1657 we can decide what to do as a community with RRA and SA. I believe both know if this bill passes their companies will be in grave danger. I would bet they are already finished, but havent died just yet. These companies cannot survive without customers, and they have just alienated the vast majority of their customers. If these companies are around in 12 months, it will have to be due to being sold to different entities with the current owners having absolutely no part of the "new" SA & RRA. |
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Already asked and answered on page 1. No relationship to terminate. Quoted:
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Do we (arfcom) have relationship with Springfield Armory? If so, why have we not terminated that relationship as well? |
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I'd love to see the lobbyist's instructions from RRA and SA. I imagine it ends with something like "If you're caught, we'll disavow all knowledge of you and your actions".
Their lobbyist was doing exactly what he was hired to do, pay off Dem politicians and keep them in the gun business in a gun unfriendly state. Blaming it all on him now is laughable. I'll take my firearm dollars elsewhere. |
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When the Safe act was being voted on, I can guarantee someone paid for time with some of New York's finest politicians to try to pursuade them to vote against it. That's how politics works. You don't think the NRA or any other lobby group would be willing to pay some middle ground anti gunners for their time to try to sway their votes? That is how politics works. THAT is why our system is broken. No offense to lobbyists who do wonderful work, but lobbyists are part of the problem!!! So are companies and anyone else who pay to influence politicians to vote a certain way. The system is corrupt and politicians should be there to only server their constituents. They are supposed to be representatives of their area and nothing more. If I was a politician, I would honor that and make sure as many votes as I made were a direct result of consulting the people who voted for me. This is how the game works and this is how votes are altered. When we get a big win by close votes, how do you think that happens? Yes, it's ugly, but it does involve lining people's pockets who are our enemies. |
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I got involved in local and state politics as soon as I was eligible. I caucused at the local level, and went to the state convention. Politics is a dirty, back-stabbing business sometimes, and it is hard to stay clean. . I'm told I have a gift for oratory. And a brain 
There's no way I'd have the patience or tolerance for all that crap, and my soul is not for sale at any price. Already bought and paid for 
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The people they paid off were not middle ground people. They were the most extreme anti gun politicians in the state. They had 1 Republican Senator vote for the bill and the bill passed on that 1 vote. They should have been lobbying that guy perhaps? Quoted:
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When the Safe act was being voted on, I can guarantee someone paid for time with some of New York's finest politicians to try to pursuade them to vote against it. That's how politics works. You don't think the NRA or any other lobby group would be willing to pay some middle ground anti gunners for their time to try to sway their votes? That is how politics works. THAT is why our system is broken. No offense to lobbyists who do wonderful work, but lobbyists are part of the problem!!! So are companies and anyone else who pay to influence politicians to vote a certain way. The system is corrupt and politicians should be there to only server their constituents. They are supposed to be representatives of their area and nothing more. If I was a politician, I would honor that and make sure as many votes as I made were a direct result of consulting the people who voted for me. This is how the game works and this is how votes are altered. When we get a big win by close votes, how do you think that happens? Yes, it's ugly, but it does involve lining people's pockets who are our enemies.
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Lobbyists are by definition people that push their employers message. No way I'd believe that a lobbyist wasn't doing exactly what the person that hired them wanted them to do. And pay to play? I am fairly sure that is a crime. 
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Sucks because I really wanted a champion operator lightweight.  Our industry is so incredibly strong. Due partially to the competition in the market. I guarantee you: someone else makes what you're looking for. So no worries 
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Although I never used it in the industry, I have a Master's Degree in Public Relations.
From the typical point of view that I saw from people in the field, I saw the following wins condition as the ONLY measure of success: My paying client greatly benefits from my campaign. The least amount of harm comes to my paying client. A non-gun-community PR guy would normally and rightfully see that if adverse legislation were to come, they would seek to make sure that it does not harm their client. They'd actually be proud that the legislation that probably harmed the competitors of their paying client did not affect their client. They'd see that as an example of their skillful representation, and they'd tout it as a reminder that it was a good decision to pay for their representation, or they'd be just like their poor competitors. That would be a phone call that would be made the minute that the ink dried on the exemption document. A non-gun-community PR guy would likely not realize that this type of maneuvering would be met with absolute damnation for their client once released, so they'd not hesitate to use the exemption as a way to pat themselves on the back, and perhaps achieve a more lucrative future commitment. Because of that line of reasoning, I find it impossible that SA and RRA did not find out about the exemption within minutes or hours of the deal. It goes against human nature and everything I ever learned or saw in the PR business philosophy. |
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Thank you GB
A very thought out response and many hours of dedicated research. Let all of us keep up the pressure to assure that the manufacturers understand that the life blood of the 2A begins and ends with them. We need them as they need us. Side note: Arizona is the place to be
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Good information by goat boy. The lack of a public response in regards to a renegade lobbyist to me is damning. If they were doing due diligence, they would have seen what happened immediately and issued a public response to the matter. It's at the least a sign that SA, RRA and other makers need PR people and a PIO. Instead this spiraled into a disaster that has left everyone pointing fingers.
I have a rra lower and an XDM, and was looking at adding another but I'm holding off until I see them make this right with us all. So yes I'll boycott them for now. On the other hand, I won't punish the gun industry, and will simply buy from another maker. |
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.... A non-gun-community PR guy would normally and rightfully see that if adverse legislation were to come, they would seek to make sure that it does not harm their client. They'd actually be proud that the legislation that probably harmed the competitors of their paying client did not affect their client. They'd see that as an example of their skillful representation, and they'd tout it as a reminder that it was a good decision to pay for their representation, or they'd be just like their poor competitors. . Weaponized Legislation. "Political power grows out of the checkbook of a lobbyist." |
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The next few years are gonna be tough enough for firearms manufacturers, let alone AR manufacturers without stuff like this. SA may survive, but RRA is a one trick pony. Good luck.  Really loved that 1.5 inch at 50 yards. Guess when I buy a custom 1911 it will be Les Baer.
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At this deep into the discussion, I'm not certain any fresh or unique perspective can be provided. I land in the camp that finds SA and RRA have no one to blame but themselves. I also go along with those who believe there's no way neither of these companies had zero knowledge of what was in this bill.
With that in mind, their response is not all that surprising. Through no fault but their own, SA and RRA put themselves in a no-win situation. If they admit they knew about the details, and in a panic chose to try and save their own hide, people would still be outraged and jumping ship. Even if they apologized for the rash decision, acknowledged it was motivated by self interest, the forgiveness would be pretty anemic in the community. The underlying reality is, when faced with serious adversity, they abandoned the principles their business relies upon. So, the only hope they had was to plead ignorance; making a spectacle of taking a stand and reversing course. No further explanation is really needed here, as we're seeing how that avenue is working out for them. I will pose a few thoughts for those others in the "they're dead to me" contingent. I'll also include those who feel this is a irreversible nail in their coffins. What are your positions on Colt, Ruger, Troy, and HS Precision? Each has had their own 2A blunders; with the former two being pretty significant over the years. Between Colt and Ruger, they've supported AWB and Import Ban efforts, magazine restrictions, civilian sale restrictions, smart guns, and more. These may not have been recent, but were far more egregious and harmful to the 2A community as a whole. So, do you support any of these companies with your dollars? Do you speak out against them and call for others to look elsewhere? If so, great. Consistency is admirable. But if one thinks SA and RRA are finished, while at the same time supports the other named companies, it's simply proof that people have short memories. Personally, I will likely never patronize any of the above. Actions have consequences, and there are far better companies deserving of consumers' business. |
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< snip > I also spent time speaking to a number of lobbyists, across different states, in regards to donations to speak to representatives. In the case of IFMA, there were donations made to anti gun politicians, which folks have questioned. From what I was able to learn, it is commonplace to have to "pay" for your voice to be heard. Most often it's in smaller amounts, but I did hear that the amounts "required" can be quite staggering. Understand that this is JUST to be able to discuss their lobby's position and try to convince them of how their vote could impact business and communities in the state. Since I did not speak with Keller, I can not say this is what happened with IFMA's donations, but I find it extremely likely that the donations in question were for this exact purpose. Knowing his strength was in reaching across the aisle, it makes even more sense that he would do everything in his power to try to help fight anti gun laws by trying to sway a few extra votes. < snip > So suddenly, supporting utterly and openly corrupt political machines is okay? This after eight years of unrestricted and totally justified fury over the progeny of the corrupt Ilinois machine sitting in the White House doing nigh on irreparable harm to the country? And after having narrowly dodged having the greatest criminal/political enterprise put its disgusting hands on the most powerful elected position in America, if not the world. If corruption is required to do business in Illinois, how corrupt is too corrupt? When has corruption so eroded the values of a person or organization that it ceases to be what it claims? If that is the price of doing business in Illinois, I want to observe that Iowa is a mere seven miles (as the cow flies) from Colona, IL, where RRA is located and 17 from Geneseo, where SA is located. Magpul moved a hell of a sight further, as did a host of other firearms manufacturers after they and the pro-gun population of their states got screwed by the most corrupt form of political power - laying the blame for the actions of a madman on law abiding, tax paying citizens. My view is "pay to play" in the form of "donations" is nothing more than extortion and bribery with a withered fig leaf hiding a shit-encrusted, pus leaking, bleeding hemorrhoid-covered asshole. It is just as ugly, just as smelly, just as disease ridden, and a sure a sign of decayed values. Goatboy, you did the correct degree of investigation, drew mostly reasonable conclusions, and took the correct action, and for that you should be commended. |
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Worth a watch.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioM5NZ-fwtI
Fuck them both until they do the right thing and leave IL.  Sorry, I don't believe for a second SA and RAA were not fully aware of what their lobbyist was doing. The companies that are lobbied for instruct the lobbyist as to their position on the issues and on what actions to take, to the letter. The thought of a lobbyist going off book is totally absurd. And the thought of a lobbyist cutting a deal without getting the okay from the people paying his fees is even more absurd. I don't buy it for a second. Is it difficult to believe these companies were simply looking out for themselves at the expense of others? This is the norm in politics, not the exception. |
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Thanks GB.
I do own a few items of both manufactures. I will discontinue any future procurement of their products until they go above and beyond to repair the damage they did with their negligence and with the defeat of this bill. I hope they realize the uproar they caused. |