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Quoted:
You mean to tell me, that when I do my rifle qualification, I shoot unsupported at 100 yards and groupa fine, but when I move to 500 yards in the prone position with a tight sling, and all I had to do is adjust my elevation, I'm theoretically not hitting the target even though I get 10/10 in the black???? View Quote He has more internet points so you're wrong. |
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Looks like the AK-12 will go to the general army soldiers while Spetznas will be getting the AEK-971. Russia set to adopt both AK-12 and AEK-971. Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. This means Russia will now have a general issue rifle capable of far better accuracy and consistancy than our M4A1s, that can see up to 5MOA in point of aim and point of impact shift by sling, barricade, or foregrip pressure when exerted on the non free floated KAC RAS. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. The US at this point needs a M4A1+ program more than ever now. View Quote |
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I kinda want one of those AK-12s....
Now I have to move into a trash can. |
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Seriously dude, have you every used a hasty sling on a pencil barreled M-16A1 in a match or prep for a match?
I have and at the most pressure I could exert, I would not approach 15MOA. 15MOA on an M-4 with a non-FF rail? if the Hulk were standing on it perhaps. That would be an extreme condition. If this were that big of a problem, people would have been complaining, I agree, we should go to a FF rail system but it ain't the big deal you make it out to be. |
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I think OP is correct in that we need to upgrade our weapons. However, I don't think buying free float handguards is a good use of money right now. Developing an ultralight machine gun based off some flat-shooting cartridge would be a better use of money.
I can think of many more things the military needs before they spend money on better rifles. Training would be pretty high on that list. I don't think you guys understand how rare weapons training is across the military. The cool guys get plenty, as they should, but in other places it's possible to go years without touching a weapon. Some installations don't even have functioning ranges. It's a pretty sorry state of affairs, with some exceptions. Before we blow a billion buying everyone new handguards, maybe we should make sure people can make use of an accurate weapon. It's wasteful to give a 2 MOA weapon to a 30 MOA shooter. |
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Looks like the AK-12 will go to the general army soldiers while Spetznas will be getting the AEK-971. Russia set to adopt both AK-12 and AEK-971. Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. This means Russia will now have a general issue rifle capable of far better accuracy and consistancy than our M4A1s, that can see up to 5MOA in point of aim and point of impact shift by sling, barricade, or foregrip pressure when exerted on the non free floated KAC RAS. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. The US at this point needs a M4A1+ program more than ever now. View Quote You ever seen how well a general issue soldier can shoot? Free floating the barrel ain't gunna be like sprinkling eagle eye fairy dust on our troops. |
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OP is romanticising the infantry, probably gets off by cleaning his 1903A3 For an infantryman today you need #1 radio #2 binoculars #3 interpreter/speak their language, and are more of an ambassador for western aid. "Fuck the taliban, how about some schools, roads, and water treatment plants? Let us open a clinic and vaccinate the kids and see how you dig 'Murica lite" Basic carpentry tools, a bulldozer and some local government/civics knowledge would all outrank "Rifle" in the list of importance and likelyhood of use. We'll never win a war without infantry but engaging in close combat is more of an ancilary "when everything else doesn't work" responsibility. Even in the Korengal. View Quote |
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You mean to tell me, that when I do my rifle qualification, I shoot unsupported at 100 yards and groupa fine, but when I move to 500 yards in the prone position with a tight sling, and all I had to do is adjust my elevation, I'm theoretically not hitting the target even though I get 10/10 in the black???? View Quote You didn't make those hits. The Marine next to you did and you got some other Marine's target. Aren't you paying attention? 15MOA!!!!!!!! |
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Well its obvious we need to modernize to keep up with the Russians getting really fancy trash to replace their regular trash, and I can think of a few solutions to that: HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K,HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, View Quote Lmao Post of the year |
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More importantly, are we going to see a large surplus of AK-47 and AK-74 parts kits.
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The AK12 is pretty much an Ak74, nothing new there. The AEK has an interesting balanced recoil system. They won't actually issue many. They said a few years ago that they'd adopt the AN-94 and look how that turned out. The An-94 is an overly complex POS. The AK-12 is just a slightly redesigned AK-74. If you look at the old prototypes from 2013 or the trials guns they look interesting, but the latest versions appear to have dropped most of the innovative changes (decent safety selector and more sturdy railed dust-cover). Now it's just an AK with a railed dust cover and collapsing M4-style stock. It's an improvement but a modest one. The improvements to the gas system and barrel appear to be minor and the free-float attempt isn't impressive considering the reciprocating piston on top. The AEK is actually interesting and innovative, and might be made for a few spec-ops guys before fading into obscurity like most new Russian guns. I hope a version comes to the US for civilian sale. If it works as well as early reports have said it would probably sell well here. |
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Oh is this your first joglee thread? He's about to tell us our woes could be over if we would just adopt the HK416. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Oh is this your first joglee thread? He's about to tell us our woes could be over if we would just adopt the HK416. Is he an H&K stockholder? loool Quoted:
That AK-12 looks like a bubba-fucked claptrap. Wow. These are facts. |
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15 MOA shift at 100 yds from firing off a barricade or using a hasty sling? wtf OP, you're drunk
please tell me what additional forces are torquing the barrel when firing with the forearm resting on a barricade vs resting the forearm on a bench while zeroing |
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The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Maybe you just suck at shooting. Or maybe I just have a magical Colt M4 barrel paired with an enchanted RIS because it seems to group better than 15moa The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. haha. Thanks for clearing that up. |
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Would a new US service rifle be neat and nice? Of course. Is it a big deal? No.
This is one of the least effective ways the military can spend its money. Like, barely more effective than additional sexual harassment power points. |
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Quoted:
Looks like the AK-12 will go to the general army soldiers while Spetznas will be getting the AEK-971. Russia set to adopt both AK-12 and AEK-971. Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. This means Russia will now have a general issue rifle capable of far better accuracy and consistancy than our M4A1s, that can see up to 5MOA in point of aim and point of impact shift by sling, barricade, or foregrip pressure when exerted on the non free floated KAC RAS. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. The US at this point needs a M4A1+ program more than ever now. View Quote Other than a free float barrel and maybe a 1-4 or 1-6 variable optic, I think the M4A1 still outclasses these Russian rifles. I love my AK though. |
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I think you underestimate how important a soldiers rifle is. Our general issue rifle is capable of a point of impact shift of up to 15MOA, depending on how it's held. That is the difference between a hit and a miss. If soldiers cannot hit their targets because their general issued rifle is deficiant due to the rail system, how do you expect them to hold important sites? Unless you think we could win a war without infantry. View Quote Based on your posts, ithink you overestimate the shit you know anything about... |
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The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. View Quote I run a Colt 6920 with a KAC RAS in classes and in 3 gun comp. I CAN NOT get a 15MOA shift if I tried. Do you even know what 15MOA means? |
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Well, it's true. We gravely need a PiP of the M4A1, otherwise we will be sorely outclassed should we face any modern nation. Free float barrels are incredibly important in this day and age, and we hamstring ourselves by employing the KAC RAS against any other modern military. View Quote Say what? I typically don't ask...because it usually doesn't matter, but have you served? |
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What happened to the AN-94 (or whatever it was called)? Didn't live up to the hype?
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They are called "free floating" barrel guns. I don't see how a piston operated firearm could be considered free floating.
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I know I'm possibly making myself a target by not completely piling on after seeing the otherwise unanimous response to this thread, but regardless of the merit of a FF on a military issue rifle, I can confirm that I measured a 9MOA shift with my AR last week by resting the muzzle end of the barrel against a barricade.
I run a 12" FF rail and usually can get part of the rail against a barricade for stabilization (when allowed) when shooting smaller targets in 3gun matches. At a recent match I was missing some of the 1-2MOA targets from a new-to-me barricade where I only had the option of resting the barrel on the barricade due to my setup (I usually don't miss so knew it had to be the gun). I at first didn't appreciate why as I run a heavy fluted barrel on my match rifle and felt the shift wouldn't be as large as I'd experienced on other guns, but as I could see my shots impacting high I just aimed low for hits and thought maybe I'd had a shift in my POA from dialing in the correction for the previous stage at 20 yards. But to pin down the problem I did some testing afterwards at my local range and discovered a 9MOA shift up in my POI when I rested the muzzle brake on a block on the bench. My group size was not impacted, just its location. The easiest solution in my case is to remove my fore grip if I go back to that range so I can push the rifle farther forward when leaning over that barricade so I can get the FF rail to the support point on the barricade. I'll just have to practice firing that rifle without the fore grip as I've gotten used to it being there. So, I'm not addressing the rest of the OP's talking points, but I will support that a sizable POI shift can occur from resting the barrel for support. Realize that resting on the muzzle end can more than double the moment arm from what a sling can or what resting a non-FF fore end can, so the resulting POI shift will be correspondingly larger. Get into the cantilevering of the barrel and the often smaller cross section of the forward part of the barrel and my test configuration is a worst case condition, but it does support the statement that large POI shifts can occur when imparting normal forces on the barrel. |
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I know I'm possibly making myself a target by not completely piling on after seeing the otherwise unanimous response to this thread, but regardless of the merit of a FF on a military issue rifle, I can confirm that I measured a 9MOA shift with my AR last week by resting the muzzle end of the barrel against a barricade. I run a 12" FF rail and usually can get part of the rail against a barricade for stabilization (when allowed) when shooting smaller targets in 3gun matches. At a recent match I was missing some of the 1-2MOA targets from a new-to-me barricade where I only had the option of resting the barrel on the barricade due to my setup (I usually don't miss so knew it had to be the gun). I at first didn't appreciate why as I run a heavy fluted barrel on my match rifle and felt the shift wouldn't be as large as I'd experienced on other guns, but as I could see my shots impacting high I just aimed low for hits and thought maybe I'd had a shift in my POA from dialing in the correction for the previous stage at 20 yards. But to pin down the problem I did some testing afterwards at my local range and discovered a 9MOA shift up in my POI when I rested the muzzle brake on a block on the bench. My group size was not impacted, just its location. The easiest solution in my case is to remove my fore grip if I go back to that range so I can push the rifle farther forward when leaning over that barricade so I can get the FF rail to the support point on the barricade. I'll just have to practice firing that rifle without the fore grip as I've gotten used to it being there. So, I'm not addressing the rest of the OP's talking points, but I will support that a sizable POI shift can occur from resting the barrel for support. Realize that resting on the muzzle end can more than double the moment arm from what a sling can or what resting a non-FF fore end can, so the resulting POI shift will be correspondingly larger. Get into the cantilevering of the barrel and the often smaller cross section of the forward part of the barrel and my test configuration is a worst case condition, but it does support the statement that large POI shifts can occur when imparting normal forces on the barrel. View Quote you just proved that having a FF handguard has zero benefit if you're gonna mess up the barrel harmonic by resting the bare barrel on a hard object |
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15 MOA shift at 100 yds from firing off a barricade or using a hasty sling? wtf OP, you're drunk please tell me what additional forces are torquing the barrel when firing with the forearm resting on a barricade vs resting the forearm on a bench while zeroing View Quote He thinks we are talking about the shitass G36s that the Germany Army uses. |
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Okay, open challenge:
We need a live-fire video of the 15-MOA effect in a non free-float gun. Maybe 5-shot groups at 100 yards shot rested with no pressure on the forearm or barrel vs groups shot to the same POA with the gun slung, rested against the forearm, rested against the barrel, maybe even one with some sort of constant extreme force exerted on the barrel. |
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I can confirm that I measured a 9MOA shift with my AR last week by resting the muzzle end of the barrel against a barricade. View Quote Bob Newhart-Stop It |
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What happened to the AN-94 (or whatever it was called)? Didn't live up to the hype? View Quote As I an another guy posted they are overly complicated POS. They were supposed to be adopted because RUSKIE AWESOME.....then they figured out that they were overly complicated POS when the vodka ran out. There were some made. One was shot by the LAV when he was in Ruskie land...if jammed so badly it need a commitee of about a half dozen guys to figure out WTF happened and uncrew it. I actually got into a keyboard tussle over that POS with Dave Fortier once. I do not think my contention on the guns rational was proven right (rapid second shot to same POA POI as the first to penetrate ceramic body armor, which I believed was bullshit) mainly because the gun failed, which did prove my point that the gun was a POS. Cable in a gun WTF man. |
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As I an another guy posted they are overly complicated POS. They were supposed to be adopted because RUSKIE AWESOME.....then they figured out that they were overly complicated POS when the vodka ran out. There were some made. One was shot by the LAV when he was in Ruskie land...if jammed so badly it need a commitee of about a half dozen guys to figure out WTF happened and uncrew it. I actually got into a keyboard tussle over that POS with Dave Fortier once. I do not think my contention on the guns rational was proven right (rapid second shot to same POA POI as the first to penetrate ceramic body armor, which I believed was bullshit) mainly because the gun failed, which did prove my point that the gun was a POS. Cable in a gun WTF man. View Quote Russia and communism have traditionally produced good theoreticians, and piss-poor engineers. The AN-94 is a good example of that trend. The notion of an ultra-fast 2-3 shot burst is sound, and should make for better hit probability. The impractical designs for such a thing were killed off decades ago in the 1st world (Project SALVO, HK G11, etc). The Rube Goldberg contraption that Soviet thinking came up with make it happen damn near went into production. |
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I have never experienced 15 moa shift, even accumulated, after 35+ years starting with the M16A1.
OP, did you get this info from your LGS?, you could not have possibly served .mil. OP, please seriously consider that the info you got from the dude who you respect and "schooled" you is completely wrong. Consider the years of experience and combined expertise that these members have in participating in shooting sports that emphasize accuracy. I would almost believe you have never personally compared a FF with a non-FF rifle. |
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How much force has to be exerted on a fixed M4-profile barrel to move the point of impact 15 inches at 100 yards?
Anyone got a barrel testing fixture? |
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The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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