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Posted: 12/11/2020 8:45:53 PM EST
[#1]
@Foxtrot08
Great info again on lubes, thanks! I was surprised at the lithium grease/water data. I've always wondered about Superlube, what can you say about it? In my layman's opinion it seems like a good lube, stays put over very long periods and even short-medium range sessions. I've not seen it separate from its thickener yet. Also, I do strip and clean after every range session usually. I do get the difference between oil/grease etc, but this seems like a nice "do-all" for my particular scenario of a good product for storage, also standing up to live fire (in both scenarios extremely well IMO). |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 8:51:04 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chad is recently a member here now, so just keep that in mind going forward, mmkay? In that case, I hope he reads this, because his Sriracha bottle is stupid, dangerous, and I believe it's also an OSHA violation. Having an unlabeled container of chemicals is ALWAYS a bad idea, especially when the unlabeled chemical actually resembles the original label on the bottle.  Now granted, the odds of someone suddenly needing some Sriracha sauce and finding a bottle on a workbench is rather slim (  ), but the basic concept should apply to everything.DO NOT have unlabeled containers of chemicals or containers with improper labels in a workplace environment. It violates MSDS/SDS protocol, and is easily remedied with something as simple as a permanent marker or label maker. Labels matter. |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 8:58:57 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In that case, I hope he reads this, because his Sriracha bottle is stupid, dangerous, and I believe it's also an OSHA violation. Having an unlabeled container of chemicals is ALWAYS a bad idea, especially when the unlabeled chemical actually resembles the original label on the bottle. Now granted, the odds of someone suddenly needing some Sriracha sauce and finding a bottle on a workbench is rather slim ( ), but the basic concept should apply to everything.DO NOT have unlabeled containers of chemicals or containers with improper labels in a workplace environment. It violates MSDS/SDS protocol, and is easily remedied with something as simple as a permanent marker or label maker. Labels matter. Got your KY mixed up with your hand sanitizer didn't you? |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 9:00:25 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never needed anything else Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Breakfree CLP  Cleaners remove oil; lubricant is oil. To think the two can ever possibly co-exist in the same product is the same as thinking water can be dry, or that a Demoncrap could ever love America. 
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Posted: 12/11/2020 9:09:30 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Foxtrot08 Great info again on lubes, thanks! I was surprised at the lithium grease/water data. I've always wondered about Superlube, what can you say about it? In my layman's opinion it seems like a good lube, stays put over very long periods and even short-medium range sessions. I've not seen it separate from its thickener yet. Also, I do strip and clean after every range session usually. I do get the difference between oil/grease etc, but this seems like a nice "do-all" for my particular scenario of a good product for storage, also standing up to live fire (in both scenarios extremely well IMO). Super lube is a good light duty, every day, around the house grease. It contains PTFE. Which is also known as Teflon. This acts as a barrier lubricant sort of like moly as it is also a solid. It certainly works. My dad uses it a lot. In my opinion it’s a little tacky. I don’t know if it’s the base oil they use. Or if it’s the solid from the PTFE. I won’t knock it. It is expensive for what it is. But what’s not $20 these days? If you’ve had success using it... don’t fix what’s not broken. It certainly won’t do you any harm using it. |
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Posted: 12/11/2020 9:12:15 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You think CLP is teh shitz? Then you are both wrong. Cleaners remove oil; lubricant is oil. To think the two can ever possibly co-exist in the same product is the same as thinking water can be dry, or that a Demoncrap could ever love America. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Breakfree CLP Cleaners remove oil; lubricant is oil. To think the two can ever possibly co-exist in the same product is the same as thinking water can be dry, or that a Demoncrap could ever love America. Uh.... https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31107/oil-lubricant-additives Huh... Lubricants clean stuff too... For your information. A motor oil does 3 main things in an engine. It cools, cleans and collects. A lubricant can be a cleaner. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 12:09:51 PM EST
[#7]
@Foxtrot08
Not to hijack this thread, but what engine oil would you recommend using for a classic american flat tappet V8? The engine has <60k miles, has been well maintained and is not "raced" or "abused". Not that it matters, but engine in question is a 1973 351 Cleveland. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 12:23:58 PM EST
[#8]
Gun lube threads always bring out the special in folks
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Posted: 12/12/2020 12:53:04 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Foxtrot08 Not to hijack this thread, but what engine oil would you recommend using for a classic american flat tappet V8? The engine has <60k miles, has been well maintained and is not "raced" or "abused". Not that it matters, but engine in question is a 1973 351 Cleveland. Redline. 10w30 or 10w40, which ever flavor fits the temps it runs at. Since it’s not in a racing application I’m guessing the 10w30 would be fine. If redline is a little too spendy, I’d go with the Valvoline VR1 or Lucas 10w30 hot rod. But really, the redline is best in class. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 1:06:33 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Redline. 10w30 or 10w40, which ever flavor fits the temps it runs at. Since it's not in a racing application I'm guessing the 10w30 would be fine. If redline is a little too spendy, I'd go with the Valvoline VR1 or Lucas 10w30 hot rod. But really, the redline is best in class. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:23:33 AM EST
[#11]
Not going to lie, this was a great read, thank you.
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Posted: 12/14/2020 5:11:00 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Super lube is a good light duty, every day, around the house grease. It contains PTFE. Which is also known as Teflon. This acts as a barrier lubricant sort of like moly as it is also a solid. It certainly works. My dad uses it a lot. In my opinion it’s a little tacky. I don’t know if it’s the base oil they use. Or if it’s the solid from the PTFE. I won’t knock it. It is expensive for what it is. But what’s not $20 these days? If you’ve had success using it... don’t fix what’s not broken. It certainly won’t do you any harm using it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Foxtrot08 Great info again on lubes, thanks! I was surprised at the lithium grease/water data. I've always wondered about Superlube, what can you say about it? In my layman's opinion it seems like a good lube, stays put over very long periods and even short-medium range sessions. I've not seen it separate from its thickener yet. Also, I do strip and clean after every range session usually. I do get the difference between oil/grease etc, but this seems like a nice "do-all" for my particular scenario of a good product for storage, also standing up to live fire (in both scenarios extremely well IMO). Super lube is a good light duty, every day, around the house grease. It contains PTFE. Which is also known as Teflon. This acts as a barrier lubricant sort of like moly as it is also a solid. It certainly works. My dad uses it a lot. In my opinion it’s a little tacky. I don’t know if it’s the base oil they use. Or if it’s the solid from the PTFE. I won’t knock it. It is expensive for what it is. But what’s not $20 these days? If you’ve had success using it... don’t fix what’s not broken. It certainly won’t do you any harm using it. Appreciate your opinion on the matter, thank you. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 7:36:22 AM EST
[#13]
Opinions on Ed's Red?
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Posted: 12/14/2020 7:48:36 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Opinions on Ed's Red? It works, while it may not be the best at what it does but it’s cheap and it works. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 9:51:46 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Opinions on Ed's Red? Ed’s red bore cleaner? 25% acetone. 25% kerosene. 25% mineral spirits 25% base oil (I’m guessing a fairly light base oil.) I certainly wouldn’t recommend it to butter toast with! But it probably works pretty alright to clean things up. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 10:21:35 AM EST
[#16]
Base oil is ATF.
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Posted: 12/14/2020 10:24:58 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Base oil is ATF. Base oil is base oil. You combine it with an additive package to make ATF. In the case of Ed’s red, it’s cas 64742-54-7. Which is 100 VI base oil or heavier. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 11:56:16 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also, I got about 45 seconds into the video closed it. Guy sounded smart until he mentioned viscosity of the product he made and how much he was spending on gun oils. For the “thousands of dollars” he supposedly spent on gun oils, he could of bought a drum of full synthetic motor oil. And cleaned a gun after every round for years to come. Just because you’re an idiot doesn’t mean you need to announce it online. Stopped reading after "could of." |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 11:59:59 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Base oil is base oil. You combine it with an additive package to make ATF. In the case of Ed’s red, it’s cas 64742-54-7. Which is 100 VI base oil or heavier. The formula I saw twenty years ago specified ATF. I made some I used as a parts soak. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:03:21 PM EST
[#20]
Is there a windage tray inside the upper, with an oil pan and a pump? geeeeze! I run my rifle Saharan desert dry compared to that.
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:14:14 PM EST
[#21]
I keep getting his videos pushed to me in my Youtube feed so I occasionally watch them. I have found some errors in his videos on gauging but they are minor and I usually comment on the video but the comment has not ever been addressed. I don't have any issues with his videos. For reference, I am a ME and have set up a manufacturing line for various AR15/M16 components and dealt with Q/C.
The areas of the greatest importance in Q/C on lower receivers have, as far as I am concerned, are not checked in his videos but its also the area many manufacturers have to get correct. As to the video on lubrication, the biggest issue I have with it is WTF did some one buy a NDS XM177 lower receiver to just use it in an over accessorized modern day AR? Seems to me like a real waste of money and maybe answers the question why NDS can not keep them in stock half the time. @Foxtrot08 I use to work as a ME in the petrochemical industry before moving into the gun industry. I talked with one of the process engineers for the lubes area about oils and greases that they make and blend. This was over 20 years ago so it might have changed some but it raised concerns with using automotive based motor oil as a lubricant for guns. My concerns:
Its been a really long time since my classes that involved lubrication in college and it was never my specialty. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:17:16 PM EST
[#22]
Arfcom told me to use Mobil 1. Prior to switching, I used to have to relube before every range session with CLP because it went dry just sitting. The Mobil 1 seems to stay in place mo betta.
Not watching video. 
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:17:29 PM EST
[#23]
This is all very interesting. I've been shooting ARs for a couple decades and the only cleaner/lube I have used is CLP.
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:20:18 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stopped reading after "could of." Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Also, I got about 45 seconds into the video closed it. Guy sounded smart until he mentioned viscosity of the product he made and how much he was spending on gun oils. For the “thousands of dollars” he supposedly spent on gun oils, he could of bought a drum of full synthetic motor oil. And cleaned a gun after every round for years to come. Just because you’re an idiot doesn’t mean you need to announce it online. Stopped reading after "could of." I happily announce I’m an idiot all the time online by replying to these threads. If you want to run your AR with enough oil and grease on it that OPEC sends you a membership, have at it. Your money, your gun, your ammo, your range, your mess. I give my advice free of change as just another asshole on the internet. If “of” instead of “have” bothers you that much, then you’re probably not my target clientele. Or really someone who listens to advice all that well, anyways. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:30:39 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep getting his videos pushed to me in my Youtube feed so I occasionally watch them. I have found some errors in his videos on gauging but they are minor and I usually comment on the video but the comment has not ever been addressed. I don't have any issues with his videos. For reference, I am a ME and have set up a manufacturing line for various AR15/M16 components and dealt with Q/C. The areas of the greatest importance in Q/C on lower receivers have, as far as I am concerned, are not checked in his videos but its also the area many manufacturers have to get correct. As to the video on lubrication, the biggest issue I have with it is WTF did some one buy a NDS XM177 lower receiver to just use it in an over accessorized modern day AR? Seems to me like a real waste of money and maybe answers the question why NDS can not keep them in stock half the time. @Foxtrot08 I use to work as a ME in the petrochemical industry before moving into the gun industry. I talked with one of the process engineers for the lubes area about oils and greases that they make and blend. This was over 20 years ago so it might have changed some but it raised concerns with using automotive based motor oil as a lubricant for guns. My concerns:
Its been a really long time since my classes that involved lubrication in college and it was never my specialty. So part one 1 on anti foaming agents. Most anti foaming agents in modern oils belong to the silicone family. So their affects on a firearm would be very little. As it’s literally little solids that come up and break the bubbles in foam. In a non closed lubrication system, like an AR. They would be absolutely the least of my worries to cause wear on an AR. The second part of your statement is confusing. Anti foaming agents have been around for 100 years essentially. What process engineers didn’t understand 20-30 years ago is how base oils played with seals, plastics and rubbers. PAO, esters and group 3 base oils all have their own pros and cons. Dealing with seal life was a part of the learning curve in engines 40 years ago.  Quick run down. Even today certain base oils don’t play well with paints and coatings. But fortunately for us, outside of industrial applications we don’t have to worry about that. Part 2: Motor oil is certainly not the worlds best corrosion inhibitor. It’s not. There are better out there. Especially long term storage. Which if you’re not using a gun for a year... two years... or more. And it’s in a poorly stored environment, motor oil isn’t your best choice. (Poorly stored would be say a high humidity. Outside location. In a safe inside, climate controlled is another story.) However if you use your gun regularly. Or clean / maintain / PM them regularly. Works fine. We can have the conversation about motor oil fumes being bad for you. However, I will also say you have lead dust. You have the gas from the powder going off. You have flakes of metal from the bullet leaving the barrel. There’s a lot of “toxic” gases from a gun firing. Motor oil fumes is one of them. Any lubricant is going to have fumes on some level. People say the heavy metals in motor oils from burning. But that literally turns into ash. And often just stays where it’s at. Probably not the best thing to breathe in. But the concentration of fumes would be so low I personally don’t stress about it. You probably get the same amount being around a car. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:53:37 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So part one 1 on anti foaming agents. Most anti foaming agents in modern oils belong to the silicone family. So their affects on a firearm would be very little. As it’s literally little solids that come up and break the bubbles in foam. In a non closed lubrication system, like an AR. They would be absolutely the least of my worries to cause wear on an AR. The second part of your statement is confusing. Anti foaming agents have been around for 100 years essentially. What process engineers didn’t understand 20-30 years ago is how base oils played with seals, plastics and rubbers. PAO, esters and group 3 base oils all have their own pros and cons. Dealing with seal life was a part of the learning curve in engines 40 years ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/baseoils-532924.jpg Quick run down. Even today certain base oils don’t play well with paints and coatings. But fortunately for us, outside of industrial applications we don’t have to worry about that. Part 2: Motor oil is certainly not the worlds best corrosion inhibitor. It’s not. There are better out there. Especially long term storage. Which if you’re not using a gun for a year... two years... or more. And it’s in a poorly stored environment, motor oil isn’t your best choice. (Poorly stored would be say a high humidity. Outside location. In a safe inside, climate controlled is another story.) However if you use your gun regularly. Or clean / maintain / PM them regularly. Works fine. We can have the conversation about motor oil fumes being bad for you. However, I will also say you have lead dust. You have the gas from the powder going off. You have flakes of metal from the bullet leaving the barrel. There’s a lot of “toxic” gases from a gun firing. Motor oil fumes is one of them. Any lubricant is going to have fumes on some level. People say the heavy metals in motor oils from burning. But that literally turns into ash. And often just stays where it’s at. Probably not the best thing to breathe in. But the concentration of fumes would be so low I personally don’t stress about it. You probably get the same amount being around a car. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I keep getting his videos pushed to me in my Youtube feed so I occasionally watch them. I have found some errors in his videos on gauging but they are minor and I usually comment on the video but the comment has not ever been addressed. I don't have any issues with his videos. For reference, I am a ME and have set up a manufacturing line for various AR15/M16 components and dealt with Q/C. The areas of the greatest importance in Q/C on lower receivers have, as far as I am concerned, are not checked in his videos but its also the area many manufacturers have to get correct. As to the video on lubrication, the biggest issue I have with it is WTF did some one buy a NDS XM177 lower receiver to just use it in an over accessorized modern day AR? Seems to me like a real waste of money and maybe answers the question why NDS can not keep them in stock half the time. @Foxtrot08 I use to work as a ME in the petrochemical industry before moving into the gun industry. I talked with one of the process engineers for the lubes area about oils and greases that they make and blend. This was over 20 years ago so it might have changed some but it raised concerns with using automotive based motor oil as a lubricant for guns. My concerns:
Its been a really long time since my classes that involved lubrication in college and it was never my specialty. So part one 1 on anti foaming agents. Most anti foaming agents in modern oils belong to the silicone family. So their affects on a firearm would be very little. As it’s literally little solids that come up and break the bubbles in foam. In a non closed lubrication system, like an AR. They would be absolutely the least of my worries to cause wear on an AR. The second part of your statement is confusing. Anti foaming agents have been around for 100 years essentially. What process engineers didn’t understand 20-30 years ago is how base oils played with seals, plastics and rubbers. PAO, esters and group 3 base oils all have their own pros and cons. Dealing with seal life was a part of the learning curve in engines 40 years ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/baseoils-532924.jpg Quick run down. Even today certain base oils don’t play well with paints and coatings. But fortunately for us, outside of industrial applications we don’t have to worry about that. Part 2: Motor oil is certainly not the worlds best corrosion inhibitor. It’s not. There are better out there. Especially long term storage. Which if you’re not using a gun for a year... two years... or more. And it’s in a poorly stored environment, motor oil isn’t your best choice. (Poorly stored would be say a high humidity. Outside location. In a safe inside, climate controlled is another story.) However if you use your gun regularly. Or clean / maintain / PM them regularly. Works fine. We can have the conversation about motor oil fumes being bad for you. However, I will also say you have lead dust. You have the gas from the powder going off. You have flakes of metal from the bullet leaving the barrel. There’s a lot of “toxic” gases from a gun firing. Motor oil fumes is one of them. Any lubricant is going to have fumes on some level. People say the heavy metals in motor oils from burning. But that literally turns into ash. And often just stays where it’s at. Probably not the best thing to breathe in. But the concentration of fumes would be so low I personally don’t stress about it. You probably get the same amount being around a car. I wish I could find the original source, but I had read something about using motor oil for firearm lubricant application being toxic, and the concern are valid if only using conventional or synthetic blend. Is that true? |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:57:07 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I happily announce I’m an idiot all the time online by replying to these threads. If you want to run your AR with enough oil and grease on it that OPEC sends you a membership, have at it. Your money, your gun, your ammo, your range, your mess. I give my advice free of change as just another asshole on the internet. If “of” instead of “have” bothers you that much, then you’re probably not my target clientele. Or really someone who listens to advice all that well, anyways. In the spirit of being honest I did quit reading after "of," but I do see you know about lubricants so I read much of what you have written in the other posts. You're not a English major, but you most likely know more about oils than I do about grammar so I will gladly and humbly learn from you. For what it's worth I might shoot 3 to 4 mags at a time in humid South Carolina so whatever is left on the bolt after cleaning, if I do that between range visits, has worked fine for me. Adding a little more lube is probably a good thing for me though. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:02:59 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the spirit of being honest I did quit reading after "of," but I do see you know about lubricants so I read much of what you have written in the other posts. You're not a English major, but you most likely know more about oils than I do about grammar so I will gladly and humbly learn from you. For what it's worth I might shoot 3 to 4 mags at a time in humid South Carolina so whatever is left on the bolt after cleaning, if I do that between range visits, has worked fine for me. Adding a little more lube is probably a good thing for me though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I happily announce I’m an idiot all the time online by replying to these threads. If you want to run your AR with enough oil and grease on it that OPEC sends you a membership, have at it. Your money, your gun, your ammo, your range, your mess. I give my advice free of change as just another asshole on the internet. If “of” instead of “have” bothers you that much, then you’re probably not my target clientele. Or really someone who listens to advice all that well, anyways. In the spirit of being honest I did quit reading after "of," but I do see you know about lubricants so I read much of what you have written in the other posts. You're not a English major, but you most likely know more about oils than I do about grammar so I will gladly and humbly learn from you. For what it's worth I might shoot 3 to 4 mags at a time in humid South Carolina so whatever is left on the bolt after cleaning, if I do that between range visits, has worked fine for me. Adding a little more lube is probably a good thing for me though. I grew up in the oil industry and know more about it, then I do speaking English. Which, I only know English, which presents a problem. So I speak bad English, poorly. As I said, I call myself a functional idiot. I'm not a smart person, as I go online with the intention to debate people on a topic I all too well. So my apologies for coming off edgy. But yeah, write online like I speak in person. Which is terrible, I can't pronounce names, I run on sentences, lose trains of thought and hooked on phonics definitely didn't work for me. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:11:17 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish I could find the original source, but I had read something about using motor oil for firearm lubricant application being toxic, and the concern are valid if only using conventional or synthetic blend. Is that true? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I keep getting his videos pushed to me in my Youtube feed so I occasionally watch them. I have found some errors in his videos on gauging but they are minor and I usually comment on the video but the comment has not ever been addressed. I don't have any issues with his videos. For reference, I am a ME and have set up a manufacturing line for various AR15/M16 components and dealt with Q/C. The areas of the greatest importance in Q/C on lower receivers have, as far as I am concerned, are not checked in his videos but its also the area many manufacturers have to get correct. As to the video on lubrication, the biggest issue I have with it is WTF did some one buy a NDS XM177 lower receiver to just use it in an over accessorized modern day AR? Seems to me like a real waste of money and maybe answers the question why NDS can not keep them in stock half the time. @Foxtrot08 I use to work as a ME in the petrochemical industry before moving into the gun industry. I talked with one of the process engineers for the lubes area about oils and greases that they make and blend. This was over 20 years ago so it might have changed some but it raised concerns with using automotive based motor oil as a lubricant for guns. My concerns:
Its been a really long time since my classes that involved lubrication in college and it was never my specialty. So part one 1 on anti foaming agents. Most anti foaming agents in modern oils belong to the silicone family. So their affects on a firearm would be very little. As it’s literally little solids that come up and break the bubbles in foam. In a non closed lubrication system, like an AR. They would be absolutely the least of my worries to cause wear on an AR. The second part of your statement is confusing. Anti foaming agents have been around for 100 years essentially. What process engineers didn’t understand 20-30 years ago is how base oils played with seals, plastics and rubbers. PAO, esters and group 3 base oils all have their own pros and cons. Dealing with seal life was a part of the learning curve in engines 40 years ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/baseoils-532924.jpg Quick run down. Even today certain base oils don’t play well with paints and coatings. But fortunately for us, outside of industrial applications we don’t have to worry about that. Part 2: Motor oil is certainly not the worlds best corrosion inhibitor. It’s not. There are better out there. Especially long term storage. Which if you’re not using a gun for a year... two years... or more. And it’s in a poorly stored environment, motor oil isn’t your best choice. (Poorly stored would be say a high humidity. Outside location. In a safe inside, climate controlled is another story.) However if you use your gun regularly. Or clean / maintain / PM them regularly. Works fine. We can have the conversation about motor oil fumes being bad for you. However, I will also say you have lead dust. You have the gas from the powder going off. You have flakes of metal from the bullet leaving the barrel. There’s a lot of “toxic” gases from a gun firing. Motor oil fumes is one of them. Any lubricant is going to have fumes on some level. People say the heavy metals in motor oils from burning. But that literally turns into ash. And often just stays where it’s at. Probably not the best thing to breathe in. But the concentration of fumes would be so low I personally don’t stress about it. You probably get the same amount being around a car. I wish I could find the original source, but I had read something about using motor oil for firearm lubricant application being toxic, and the concern are valid if only using conventional or synthetic blend. Is that true? It has to do more with the additive package then the base oil. VI improvers are polymers. So you're burning plastics off. The anti-wear aspects of your motor oils are metals. Zinc and Phosphorus being the primary two - ZDDP - Some newer motor oils using Boron and Moly as anti-wear agents. How much those really will 'burn' is debatable. As ZDDP turns into sulfated ash. If you read up on natural gas engine oils, or modern diesel emission systems, you can discover the link between the metals and ash more. The detergent package in motor oils is mostly your calcium, magnesium and barium. Which aren't going to do anything harmful really. So your main risk of the VI improvers, Polymers and copolymers of methacrylates, butadiene olefins and alkylated styrenes. Then your friction modifiers, Organic fatty acids and amines, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters.. Are the two main things cooking off at low temps. And really... they smell, but they're probably less harmless than: carbon monoxide, ammonia, hydrogen chloride, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, and lead. Which is the off gases of when you fire a round. Assuming you're shooting outdoors, or in a well ventilated area - probably extremely, extremely, extremely low risk of fumes doing anything major. If you're shooting inclosed, in doors, poorly ventilated... Well, risk of lead in the air is EXTREMELY high and also super toxic. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:13:45 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He’s known in the MD shooting community for being a generous and nice guy in person, but strange and touchy on the Internet. His background is in IT, but he started out in gunsmithing at a place called Scott’s Gunsmithing mostly part-time I think. He used to be on arf, but would get into ridiculous technical arguments. He left in a funk after he tried to call out Chuck Rogers apparently. Pretty decent way to sum it up. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:20:39 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not a English major, Oh the irony! |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:26:45 PM EST
[#32]
Originally from Foxtrot08 And really... they smell, but they're probably less harmless than: carbon monoxide, ammonia, hydrogen chloride, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, and lead. Which is the off gases of when you fire a round. And that is it in a nutshell. People get all "OMG" over carcinogens or other "Bad" stuff they think is burning off of Motor Oil, when the reality, is the shit coming off the fired gases is way worse. For me, the Jury has been out for years on using Mobil 1 for my AR's. I've tested it by using it over and over again and I come away that it works great. I mix in a little grease to thicken it up and it stays. People try to take shit that is easy and make if difficult. and there is no reason too. Dunking you gun in a tub of oil is unnecessary. dunking the entire BCG is also unnecessary. These things called guns have been around a long time... I learned to put motor oil on belt fed MG's from guys who did in in Vietnam, who most likely learned it from some WW2 guys. I've never paid for a container of Lubricate designed solely for firearms. I'm still pretty proud of that. 
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:28:49 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh the irony! Oh snap, that probably happens more than I care to admit! |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:53:28 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also, I got about 45 seconds into the video closed it. Guy sounded smart until he mentioned viscosity of the product he made and how much he was spending on gun oils. For the “thousands of dollars” he supposedly spent on gun oils, he could of bought a drum of full synthetic motor oil. And cleaned a gun after every round for years to come. Just because you’re an idiot doesn’t mean you need to announce it online. I bought a big bottle of Ballistol loke 10 years ago. Think it cost me like $16. I think I've used maybe one fourth of the contents. I use it on all of my firearms. All run and aren't rusted. Wondering if this guy spends half his waking hours lubing his guns every day. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 2:00:18 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a big bottle of Ballistol loke 10 years ago. Think it cost me like $16. I think I've used maybe one fourth of the contents. I use it on all of my firearms. All run and aren't rusted. Wondering if this guy spends half his waking hours lubing his guns every day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Also, I got about 45 seconds into the video closed it. Guy sounded smart until he mentioned viscosity of the product he made and how much he was spending on gun oils. For the “thousands of dollars” he supposedly spent on gun oils, he could of bought a drum of full synthetic motor oil. And cleaned a gun after every round for years to come. Just because you’re an idiot doesn’t mean you need to announce it online. I bought a big bottle of Ballistol loke 10 years ago. Think it cost me like $16. I think I've used maybe one fourth of the contents. I use it on all of my firearms. All run and aren't rusted. Wondering if this guy spends half his waking hours lubing his guns every day. Here’s about $3000 of lubricant and rust preventative:  Super duper fully synthetic too! And biodegradable! And fire resistant! |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 2:08:32 PM EST
[#36]
I just use 30 W motor oil mixed with some STP or Lucas oil treatment to thicken it up.
Works great. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 2:37:15 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here’s about $3000 of lubricant and rust preventative: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/99DBA7DC-4CEC-45A4-BC73-C6CFBABAC610-1730764.jpg Super duper fully synthetic too! And biodegradable! And fire resistant! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Also, I got about 45 seconds into the video closed it. Guy sounded smart until he mentioned viscosity of the product he made and how much he was spending on gun oils. For the “thousands of dollars” he supposedly spent on gun oils, he could of bought a drum of full synthetic motor oil. And cleaned a gun after every round for years to come. Just because you’re an idiot doesn’t mean you need to announce it online. I bought a big bottle of Ballistol loke 10 years ago. Think it cost me like $16. I think I've used maybe one fourth of the contents. I use it on all of my firearms. All run and aren't rusted. Wondering if this guy spends half his waking hours lubing his guns every day. Here’s about $3000 of lubricant and rust preventative: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/99DBA7DC-4CEC-45A4-BC73-C6CFBABAC610-1730764.jpg Super duper fully synthetic too! And biodegradable! And fire resistant! LMAO! |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 2:41:19 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LMAO! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Also, I got about 45 seconds into the video closed it. Guy sounded smart until he mentioned viscosity of the product he made and how much he was spending on gun oils. For the “thousands of dollars” he supposedly spent on gun oils, he could of bought a drum of full synthetic motor oil. And cleaned a gun after every round for years to come. Just because you’re an idiot doesn’t mean you need to announce it online. I bought a big bottle of Ballistol loke 10 years ago. Think it cost me like $16. I think I've used maybe one fourth of the contents. I use it on all of my firearms. All run and aren't rusted. Wondering if this guy spends half his waking hours lubing his guns every day. Here’s about $3000 of lubricant and rust preventative: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/99DBA7DC-4CEC-45A4-BC73-C6CFBABAC610-1730764.jpg Super duper fully synthetic too! And biodegradable! And fire resistant! LMAO! You laugh! The 888-46 is a pao based hydraulic oil that is fire resistant to some stupid temp. Used in aluminum extruders and steel mills a lot. It’s an anti wear. The ferrocote 624 AAM is a full synthetic rust and corrosion inhibitor. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 2:57:23 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here’s about $3000 of lubricant and rust preventative: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/99DBA7DC-4CEC-45A4-BC73-C6CFBABAC610-1730764.jpg Super duper fully synthetic too! And biodegradable! And fire resistant! Siphon me off a quart. They'll never miss it. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 3:02:10 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Siphon me off a quart. They'll never miss it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here’s about $3000 of lubricant and rust preventative: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/99DBA7DC-4CEC-45A4-BC73-C6CFBABAC610-1730764.jpg Super duper fully synthetic too! And biodegradable! And fire resistant! Siphon me off a quart. They'll never miss it. I have the 888-46 in bulk too. It’s about $80,000 a truck load. I have another version of the ferrocote in bulk. 5856 BFT-1, it’s a medium term rust and corrosion inhibitor. 6 months to 2 years. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 3:09:56 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has to do more with the additive package then the base oil. VI improvers are polymers. So you're burning plastics off. The anti-wear aspects of your motor oils are metals. Zinc and Phosphorus being the primary two - ZDDP - Some newer motor oils using Boron and Moly as anti-wear agents. How much those really will 'burn' is debatable. As ZDDP turns into sulfated ash. If you read up on natural gas engine oils, or modern diesel emission systems, you can discover the link between the metals and ash more. The detergent package in motor oils is mostly your calcium, magnesium and barium. Which aren't going to do anything harmful really. So your main risk of the VI improvers, Polymers and copolymers of methacrylates, butadiene olefins and alkylated styrenes. Then your friction modifiers, Organic fatty acids and amines, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters.. Are the two main things cooking off at low temps. And really... they smell, but they're probably less harmless than: carbon monoxide, ammonia, hydrogen chloride, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, and lead. Which is the off gases of when you fire a round. Assuming you're shooting outdoors, or in a well ventilated area - probably extremely, extremely, extremely low risk of fumes doing anything major. If you're shooting inclosed, in doors, poorly ventilated... Well, risk of lead in the air is EXTREMELY high and also super toxic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I keep getting his videos pushed to me in my Youtube feed so I occasionally watch them. I have found some errors in his videos on gauging but they are minor and I usually comment on the video but the comment has not ever been addressed. I don't have any issues with his videos. For reference, I am a ME and have set up a manufacturing line for various AR15/M16 components and dealt with Q/C. The areas of the greatest importance in Q/C on lower receivers have, as far as I am concerned, are not checked in his videos but its also the area many manufacturers have to get correct. As to the video on lubrication, the biggest issue I have with it is WTF did some one buy a NDS XM177 lower receiver to just use it in an over accessorized modern day AR? Seems to me like a real waste of money and maybe answers the question why NDS can not keep them in stock half the time. @Foxtrot08 I use to work as a ME in the petrochemical industry before moving into the gun industry. I talked with one of the process engineers for the lubes area about oils and greases that they make and blend. This was over 20 years ago so it might have changed some but it raised concerns with using automotive based motor oil as a lubricant for guns. My concerns:
Its been a really long time since my classes that involved lubrication in college and it was never my specialty. So part one 1 on anti foaming agents. Most anti foaming agents in modern oils belong to the silicone family. So their affects on a firearm would be very little. As it’s literally little solids that come up and break the bubbles in foam. In a non closed lubrication system, like an AR. They would be absolutely the least of my worries to cause wear on an AR. The second part of your statement is confusing. Anti foaming agents have been around for 100 years essentially. What process engineers didn’t understand 20-30 years ago is how base oils played with seals, plastics and rubbers. PAO, esters and group 3 base oils all have their own pros and cons. Dealing with seal life was a part of the learning curve in engines 40 years ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/baseoils-532924.jpg Quick run down. Even today certain base oils don’t play well with paints and coatings. But fortunately for us, outside of industrial applications we don’t have to worry about that. Part 2: Motor oil is certainly not the worlds best corrosion inhibitor. It’s not. There are better out there. Especially long term storage. Which if you’re not using a gun for a year... two years... or more. And it’s in a poorly stored environment, motor oil isn’t your best choice. (Poorly stored would be say a high humidity. Outside location. In a safe inside, climate controlled is another story.) However if you use your gun regularly. Or clean / maintain / PM them regularly. Works fine. We can have the conversation about motor oil fumes being bad for you. However, I will also say you have lead dust. You have the gas from the powder going off. You have flakes of metal from the bullet leaving the barrel. There’s a lot of “toxic” gases from a gun firing. Motor oil fumes is one of them. Any lubricant is going to have fumes on some level. People say the heavy metals in motor oils from burning. But that literally turns into ash. And often just stays where it’s at. Probably not the best thing to breathe in. But the concentration of fumes would be so low I personally don’t stress about it. You probably get the same amount being around a car. I wish I could find the original source, but I had read something about using motor oil for firearm lubricant application being toxic, and the concern are valid if only using conventional or synthetic blend. Is that true? It has to do more with the additive package then the base oil. VI improvers are polymers. So you're burning plastics off. The anti-wear aspects of your motor oils are metals. Zinc and Phosphorus being the primary two - ZDDP - Some newer motor oils using Boron and Moly as anti-wear agents. How much those really will 'burn' is debatable. As ZDDP turns into sulfated ash. If you read up on natural gas engine oils, or modern diesel emission systems, you can discover the link between the metals and ash more. The detergent package in motor oils is mostly your calcium, magnesium and barium. Which aren't going to do anything harmful really. So your main risk of the VI improvers, Polymers and copolymers of methacrylates, butadiene olefins and alkylated styrenes. Then your friction modifiers, Organic fatty acids and amines, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters.. Are the two main things cooking off at low temps. And really... they smell, but they're probably less harmless than: carbon monoxide, ammonia, hydrogen chloride, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, and lead. Which is the off gases of when you fire a round. Assuming you're shooting outdoors, or in a well ventilated area - probably extremely, extremely, extremely low risk of fumes doing anything major. If you're shooting inclosed, in doors, poorly ventilated... Well, risk of lead in the air is EXTREMELY high and also super toxic. Interesting. So what lubricant and cleaner do you use, if I may ask? I did read the thread early this morning, but probably missed it. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 3:21:03 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. So what lubricant and cleaner do you use, if I may ask? I did read the thread early this morning, but probably missed it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I keep getting his videos pushed to me in my Youtube feed so I occasionally watch them. I have found some errors in his videos on gauging but they are minor and I usually comment on the video but the comment has not ever been addressed. I don't have any issues with his videos. For reference, I am a ME and have set up a manufacturing line for various AR15/M16 components and dealt with Q/C. The areas of the greatest importance in Q/C on lower receivers have, as far as I am concerned, are not checked in his videos but its also the area many manufacturers have to get correct. As to the video on lubrication, the biggest issue I have with it is WTF did some one buy a NDS XM177 lower receiver to just use it in an over accessorized modern day AR? Seems to me like a real waste of money and maybe answers the question why NDS can not keep them in stock half the time. @Foxtrot08 I use to work as a ME in the petrochemical industry before moving into the gun industry. I talked with one of the process engineers for the lubes area about oils and greases that they make and blend. This was over 20 years ago so it might have changed some but it raised concerns with using automotive based motor oil as a lubricant for guns. My concerns:
Its been a really long time since my classes that involved lubrication in college and it was never my specialty. So part one 1 on anti foaming agents. Most anti foaming agents in modern oils belong to the silicone family. So their affects on a firearm would be very little. As it’s literally little solids that come up and break the bubbles in foam. In a non closed lubrication system, like an AR. They would be absolutely the least of my worries to cause wear on an AR. The second part of your statement is confusing. Anti foaming agents have been around for 100 years essentially. What process engineers didn’t understand 20-30 years ago is how base oils played with seals, plastics and rubbers. PAO, esters and group 3 base oils all have their own pros and cons. Dealing with seal life was a part of the learning curve in engines 40 years ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/baseoils-532924.jpg Quick run down. Even today certain base oils don’t play well with paints and coatings. But fortunately for us, outside of industrial applications we don’t have to worry about that. Part 2: Motor oil is certainly not the worlds best corrosion inhibitor. It’s not. There are better out there. Especially long term storage. Which if you’re not using a gun for a year... two years... or more. And it’s in a poorly stored environment, motor oil isn’t your best choice. (Poorly stored would be say a high humidity. Outside location. In a safe inside, climate controlled is another story.) However if you use your gun regularly. Or clean / maintain / PM them regularly. Works fine. We can have the conversation about motor oil fumes being bad for you. However, I will also say you have lead dust. You have the gas from the powder going off. You have flakes of metal from the bullet leaving the barrel. There’s a lot of “toxic” gases from a gun firing. Motor oil fumes is one of them. Any lubricant is going to have fumes on some level. People say the heavy metals in motor oils from burning. But that literally turns into ash. And often just stays where it’s at. Probably not the best thing to breathe in. But the concentration of fumes would be so low I personally don’t stress about it. You probably get the same amount being around a car. I wish I could find the original source, but I had read something about using motor oil for firearm lubricant application being toxic, and the concern are valid if only using conventional or synthetic blend. Is that true? It has to do more with the additive package then the base oil. VI improvers are polymers. So you're burning plastics off. The anti-wear aspects of your motor oils are metals. Zinc and Phosphorus being the primary two - ZDDP - Some newer motor oils using Boron and Moly as anti-wear agents. How much those really will 'burn' is debatable. As ZDDP turns into sulfated ash. If you read up on natural gas engine oils, or modern diesel emission systems, you can discover the link between the metals and ash more. The detergent package in motor oils is mostly your calcium, magnesium and barium. Which aren't going to do anything harmful really. So your main risk of the VI improvers, Polymers and copolymers of methacrylates, butadiene olefins and alkylated styrenes. Then your friction modifiers, Organic fatty acids and amines, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters.. Are the two main things cooking off at low temps. And really... they smell, but they're probably less harmless than: carbon monoxide, ammonia, hydrogen chloride, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, and lead. Which is the off gases of when you fire a round. Assuming you're shooting outdoors, or in a well ventilated area - probably extremely, extremely, extremely low risk of fumes doing anything major. If you're shooting inclosed, in doors, poorly ventilated... Well, risk of lead in the air is EXTREMELY high and also super toxic. Interesting. So what lubricant and cleaner do you use, if I may ask? I did read the thread early this morning, but probably missed it. Previous to 2 months ago: I used birchwood Casey gun scrubber and motor oil as the lubricant. We became a Lucas oil distributor since then. And I now have a shit load of Lucas gun cleaner, Lucas clp and lucas gun oil. So I’ve been trying those out. No comment on the quality or how well they work yet. But it’s free for me. So why not? (Shill notice again: I am a Lucas oil master distributor.) I’ll finish up my gun scrubber no problem. And I’ve never had an issue with motor oil yet. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 3:21:51 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryBetter there then in a bowl of chili. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 4:32:24 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh snap, that probably happens more than I care to admit! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh the irony! Oh snap, that probably happens more than I care to admit! 
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Posted: 12/14/2020 5:01:29 PM EST
[#45]
I still use CLP most of the time. If I’m feeling saucey, I might reach for the SLP2000EWL.
Both work just fine, and I don’t need a facial. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 5:16:13 PM EST
[#46]
From watching his videos he presents what is normally called a 'hand check' in the machining world (ie hand gauges).
He does know his gauging from an operating perspective, but I don't think he has much if any manufacturing experience at least from the way he speaks. Anyone can run gauges, that just tells you if something is nominal, or how far from nominal. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 5:18:11 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't have a PhD in lubrication technology but I can tell you that when I was in the army the conventional infantry "wisdom" of too much oil attracts dirt was still common and I saw and experienced TONS of failures due to under lubricating stuff to avoid "attracting dirt." Then we got a company armorer who was a "renegade"(meaning he read the internet and tested stuff  ) and we started doing "dirt attracting stuff" and stoppages magically dropped to near zero.We even used full size spray bottles full of CLP or motor oil we would just hose all over our 240s/SAWs when shooting high volume. Never had any issues, even when blasting off wayyyyy too many rounds for the number of spare barrels we brought because the LT didn't want to turn in extra ammo and fuck the equipment, shoot 20,000 rounds in an hour so we can go home and do it fast. Strangely that same LT was a devoted adherent of oil being dirt attracting and I vividly remember being at an EIB event and him lecturing a private in the barracks that the M4 should be cleaned with Hoppes and kept very dry to avoid stoppages. The ONLY place on the weapon that needs lubricant is the buffer tube and buffer spring. I saw a clean but dry M240 start to choke after about 800 rounds. The corrective action was to spray the inside of the receiver with clp. It fired another 10k rounds without issue. "Lube pulls the carbon out of the steel" is enraging. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 5:23:47 PM EST
[#48]
Mix Lucas oil stabilizer in your favorite motor oil or tranny fluid, like 1:4
The mixture stays put wherever applied. |
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Posted: 12/21/2020 10:27:00 AM EST
[#49]
Vegetable based lubrucants disolve petrolium based lubricants, and may also affect petrolium based rubber type cleaning mats.
Quote HistoryQuoted: That stuff is legit, I won’t be repurchasing as I’ve found Hoppe’s and 10w-30 to cover my needs. But it’s a much improved CLP no doubt. It did melt my Glock diagram gun mat though, no idea how they designed something that can melt a mat like that and have it be plant based / eco friendly etc etc |
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