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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:37:19 PM EDT
[#1]
I don't think this is about aftermarket parts, it's about selling modified guns.
So take a M&P, turn it into a race gun and sell it as a S&W M&P, which it no longer really is. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:41:11 PM EDT
[#2]
This is a huge mistake for S&W.
The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:44:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a huge mistake for S&W. The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. Works out well for lots of people! http://www.uspto.gov/kids/graveyard.html Edit: That's a VERY short list. See Thermos, Trampoline, many others. As pointed out, one must defend their trademark. Such a strategy (making something ubiquitous or...generic and allowing others to freely use the trademark) is a recipe for losing the protections afforded. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:44:14 PM EDT
[#4]
God bless social media and its ability to turn a zippo flick into a 3 alarm inferno.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:46:00 PM EDT
[#5]
You'd think after the black eye they got by being used in the San Bernardino terrorist attack they'd want to keep a low profile.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:47:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another reason to buy a Glock Bingo Mr. Powers, fuck them right in the pussy And this folks is why G19 is the answer |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:50:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well time to sell the M&P and get a CZ carry gun. Fuck S&W right in the butthole for being bitches. Sure as hell don't need to mess with the P-07 trigger, she is buttery smooth. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:51:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'd think after the black eye they got by being used in the San Bernardino terrorist attack they'd want to keep a low profile. S&W makes terrorist guns? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:52:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GM pretty much told us changing our own oil will void the warranty Friend of mine was denied warranty on his new Silverado's differentials because he put in a cold air intake. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What is next? Ford sending tire shops letters to stop putting wheels and tires on F250's? lol Good luck with that. GM pretty much told us changing our own oil will void the warranty Friend of mine was denied warranty on his new Silverado's differentials because he put in a cold air intake. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:52:17 PM EDT
[#10]
I strongly suspect this is a case of Mr. Overzealous Newbie Legal Aide.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:53:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Works out well for lots of people! http://www.uspto.gov/kids/graveyard.html Edit: That's a VERY short list. See Thermos, Trampoline, many others. As pointed out, one must defend their trademark. Such a strategy (making something ubiquitous and allowing others to freely use the trademark) is a recipe for losing the protections afforded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is a huge mistake for S&W. The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. Works out well for lots of people! http://www.uspto.gov/kids/graveyard.html Edit: That's a VERY short list. See Thermos, Trampoline, many others. As pointed out, one must defend their trademark. Such a strategy (making something ubiquitous and allowing others to freely use the trademark) is a recipe for losing the protections afforded. I understand the concept of defending your trademark more than you might realize... That said, my comment stands. You don't get to be Thermos or Kleenex or Xerox without your idea becoming ubiquitous. Suing the pants off of the little guys is not generally considered a recipe for ubiquity. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:53:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's specifically illegal. Ref: Magunson-Moss Act. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What is next? Ford sending tire shops letters to stop putting wheels and tires on F250's? lol Good luck with that. GM pretty much told us changing our own oil will void the warranty Friend of mine was denied warranty on his new Silverado's differentials because he put in a cold air intake. Actually, the CAI might work for denying the claim on the diffs... |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:53:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Their social media is on fire right now.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:54:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There social media is on fire right now. Of course...because that's how social media works. Somebody goes off half cocked and shit burns. Because reason doesn't work well shouted through a megaphone. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:54:56 PM EDT
[#15]
I predict this will not quite workout as well as S&W intends.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:55:48 PM EDT
[#16]
So, now that the rest of the story is out, Smith and Wesson is upset that other companies are selling a custom/modified M&P and calling it an M&P?
I wonder what S&W's thoughts on Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner  |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:55:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/apex-news/apex-teams-with-top-custom-builders-on-brownells-dream-gun/ Now it makes more sense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The plot thickens..... S&W "M&P Dream Gun" offered with altered parts and still exhibiting the S&W and M&P trade marks... https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1934597_10204099808133979_4312216293917758907_n.jpg?oh=d6fb300a561bdee6dc4e2dfec65490de&oe=570D8406 They are selling a new pistol that they alter as a smith....... This actually probably is a direct violation of US trademark/patent law and Smith isn't really saying much about personally owned weapons modified after it seems. Or maybe this is only part of their grievance. https://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/apex-news/apex-teams-with-top-custom-builders-on-brownells-dream-gun/ Now it makes more sense. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:58:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand the concept of defending your trademark more than you might realize... That said, my comment stands. You don't get to be Thermos or Kleenex or Xerox without your idea becoming ubiquitous. Suing the pants off of the little guys is not generally considered a recipe for ubiquity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is a huge mistake for S&W. The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. Works out well for lots of people! http://www.uspto.gov/kids/graveyard.html Edit: That's a VERY short list. See Thermos, Trampoline, many others. As pointed out, one must defend their trademark. Such a strategy (making something ubiquitous and allowing others to freely use the trademark) is a recipe for losing the protections afforded. I understand the concept of defending your trademark more than you might realize... That said, my comment stands. You don't get to be Thermos or Kleenex or Xerox without your idea becoming ubiquitous. Suing the pants off of the little guys is not generally considered a recipe for ubiquity. Fair enough, just a criticism of their business strategy then. I was getting a little antsy with lots of crazy stuff being said in the thread
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:58:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Am I in trouble for putting new hand guards on my M&P 15? What if I use non-OEM mags?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 3:59:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Their social media is on fire right now. If APEX triggers weren't around, how many folks here would own a S&W? I understand the merit of their claim, but talk about kicking their golden goose in the side. I would have handled it with a phone call and a cross branding exercise....but hey their company their rules |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:01:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think this is about aftermarket parts, it's about selling modified guns. So take a M&P, turn it into a race gun and sell it as a S&W M&P, which it no longer really is. That's like saying that a heavily customized Ford Mustang is no longer a Ford Mustang. There is lots of precedence for customizing guns, cars, planes, etc. to make this a loser for S&W. Just public opinion will make it a loser. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:01:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep reading.
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That will not go as planned for S&W Nope. Stupid. Keep reading.
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:01:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well fuck them then Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger Did I read that wrong? Sounds like they want them to stop selling complete, modified pistols...not just the parts to modify them. I think you can still get a trigger kit and install it yourself, or have a gunsmith do it for you. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:02:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If APEX triggers weren't around, how many folks here would own a S&W? I understand the merit of their claim, but talk about kicking their golden goose in the side. I would have handled it with a phone call and a cross branding exercise....but hey their company their rules Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Their social media is on fire right now. If APEX triggers weren't around, how many folks here would own a S&W? I understand the merit of their claim, but talk about kicking their golden goose in the side. I would have handled it with a phone call and a cross branding exercise....but hey their company their rules If Smith and Wesson weren't fundamentally retarded, they would've dumped that shitty ILS lock on their revolvers long ago... 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:03:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Saleen and Rousch both have to pull the Ford logos off the cars and sell them as a Saleen or Rousch. ASP and Devels were sold as ASPs and Devels...clearly based on S&W's guns but not marketed under the S&W logo. Same thing here. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:03:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think this is about aftermarket parts, it's about selling modified guns. So take a M&P, turn it into a race gun and sell it as a S&W M&P, which it no longer really is. Yeah I think this means about zero. They'll have to change the name before SHOT 2016 & that's about it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:05:47 PM EDT
[#27]
M&Ps suck ass anyways. So this is just even funnier.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:06:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Looks like the "glock vs. m&p" debate has been answered.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:07:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a huge mistake for S&W. The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. M&P is shit Their revolvers are now shit Even their Performance Center is shit S&W stopped making good guns when they did lawyer locks, two piece barrels, and frame mounted firing pins along with ceasing production of the 3rd Gen Autos. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:08:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Saleen and Rousch both have to pull the Ford logos off the cars and sell them as a Saleen or Rousch. ASP and Devels were sold as ASPs and Devels...clearly based on S&W's guns but not marketed under the S&W logo. Same thing here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Saleen and Rousch both have to pull the Ford logos off the cars and sell them as a Saleen or Rousch. ASP and Devels were sold as ASPs and Devels...clearly based on S&W's guns but not marketed under the S&W logo. Same thing here. Saleen still refers to the "Saleen Mustang" on their website. Rousch uses "F-150" and "Raptor" all over their website as well. Those are Ford trademarks. ETA: I think this is a silly move on the part of S&W. They may get introduced to the Streisand Effect the hard way. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:09:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Glock has been on the market....what...several decades longer than the M&P? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another reason to buy a Glock There are more aftermarket "improvement" parts for a Glock than M&P
And the Glock has been on the market....what...several decades longer than the M&P? And has Glock ever pulled some stupid shit like this on aftermarket companies? I don't think Glocks are "better" than M&P, in just prefer them more, but S&W being all up in arms about this is fucking retarded. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:09:46 PM EDT
[#32]
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I'm beginning to hate guns. It is always someting under attack. Fucking lame. I definitely don't hate guns, but this hobby is a mother fucker. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:10:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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That will not go as planned for S&W Nope. Stupid. Keep reading.
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Basically someone beat S&W to the market. I'm sure absent these (already better, cheaper) options, S&W would be touting their special "Performance Center" versions of these guns. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:10:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Don't understand how they could have any grounds for this. Custom car companies and parts manufacturers do it all the time.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:11:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That will not go as planned for S&W Nope. Stupid. Keep reading.
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Simple, Saleen and Roush are their own manufactures, and the vehicles are branded as such. It helps that they have (at times) working partnerships with Ford. And, their literature states that the vehicle is a Roush, with all the warranty claims being on them. When Does Your ROUSH® Warranty Begin?
Your ROUSH® warranty begins either the day you take delivery of your new vehicle or the day it is first put into service (for example, as a dealer demonstrator), whichever occurs first. The vehicle’s original in-service date or warranty start date (W.S.D.) is determined by Ford dealer OASIS (On-Line Service Information System) report. Should you ever require warranty repairs to any ROUSH® part on your vehicle, we recommend that you take your vehicle to an authorized Ford Dealer that sells ROUSH® vehicles for service. Who Pays For ROUSH® Warranty Repairs? You will not be charged for covered warranty repairs made during the warranty periods identified in the ROUSH® Limited Warranty for those ROUSH® parts installed by ROUSH®. All initial warranty claims are processed through your dealer and the ROUSH® Performance corporate office in Plymouth, Michigan, regardless of where the vehicle was purchased. Vehicle Service ROUSH® has authorized specific Ford Dealers to sell and service our vehicles. In case a service need arises, we suggest you contact your selling Ford Dealer for service, who wants to ensure your continued satisfaction. If this is not possible, you may take your vehicle to any authorized Ford Dealer that sells ROUSH® vehicles for service. If you have a warranty claim, please contact your local Ford dealer that sells ROUSH® vehicles or contact ROUSH® Performance Customer Service between 8 AM and 5 PM Eastern Time, Monday through Friday, at 800.59. ROUSH (800.597.6874). Please have the vehicle identification number (V.I.N.) available. 26 |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:11:37 PM EDT
[#36]
And Glock sits in the shadows in the back:
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:12:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That will not go as planned for S&W Nope. Stupid. Keep reading.
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Saleen and Rousch are both licensed through Ford. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:12:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Saleen still refers to the "Saleen Mustang" on their website. Rousch uses "F-150" and "Raptor" all over their website as well. Those are Ford trademarks. ETA: I think this is a silly move on the part of S&W. They may get introduced to the Streisand Effect the hard way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Saleen and Rousch both have to pull the Ford logos off the cars and sell them as a Saleen or Rousch. ASP and Devels were sold as ASPs and Devels...clearly based on S&W's guns but not marketed under the S&W logo. Same thing here. Saleen still refers to the "Saleen Mustang" on their website. Rousch uses "F-150" and "Raptor" all over their website as well. Those are Ford trademarks. ETA: I think this is a silly move on the part of S&W. They may get introduced to the Streisand Effect the hard way. Yes, they do, because of licensing agreements with Ford. Saleen did not always have that, and their cars were not branded as Mustangs during that time. Check the joy that has been the "Cobra" trademark for serious levels of derp. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:12:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The new productions ones arent bad. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well fuck them then Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger The new productions ones arent bad. Umm, not necessarily. I've got 6-7 M&Ps around here. My newest M&P9 (bought new earlier this yr) has the shittiest trigger of all. Seriously don't know if my trigger gauge goes high enough to read the pull weight. Thought the sear mod would fix it but not so far..... The triggers on all of my earlier M&Ps are actually pretty good and have required no work or upgrades. I guess fuck S&W in light of their pissy stance on this Apex thing too. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:13:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't understand how they could have any grounds for this. Custom car companies and parts manufacturers do it all the time. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile And when they do, they are served with C&D letters absent a specific agreement with the manufacturer. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:13:43 PM EDT
[#41]
I sense that the SW Custom Shop is ready to roll out their own designs.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:20:43 PM EDT
[#42]
I am HOPING S&W is just after a licensing deal here.
There's a concept in Trademark law call "first sale" doctrine which basically is that the mark owner really only has control over the first sale of the product as long as it hasn't been significantly altered. For example, you couldn't weld a S&W slide onto a bulldozer and call it a S&W bulldozer. In this case, its still fundamentally an M&P pistol with some bullshit cosmetics done to it. The defendants may be able to argue that S&W's rights ended at the first sale. Here's a good law review articleto help explain what I'm getting at. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:23:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I'm going to wait until this proves to be real until I break out the torch and pitchfork. A move like this from S&W makes zero sense... and they have been making pretty good decisions the last few years. I would have to respectfully disagree with you there. S&W started going downhill after their 3rd gen pistols, I owned 4 of them and still own 1. I bought a shield this spring (after a long debate over the shield or getting a G26 or the 43) that was total crap and took 2 trips back for them to fix it. Once I was satisfied that I could sell it in good faith I dumped it and went back to another Glock. Their customer service is crap and they don't give a shit. They're riding on their name and putting out a shit product. Their M&P's need a $100 upgrade to get a decent trigger? No thanks....  Google shield FTE and see all the issues with them or just look in the S&W forum.
Here is my story of my cluster with them... S&W of today is nothing like the company or products they used to be. I don't ever see myself buying another S&W again 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:26:24 PM EDT
[#44]
For those that know more than me about trademark laws, would it make a difference if this company didn't use the word "upgrades" and instead used words like changes or modifications? How about if they made it clear that S&W was not a partner in the project, along with the usual legalise disclaimer, "The S&W and M&P name and logos are trademarks of..."?
I wonder why S&W never had the Youtube video pulled when Chris Costa was promoting all of his M&P modifications. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:27:25 PM EDT
[#45]
I have never seen this many trigger snobs before in my life.
Just deal with it. Can't be worse than my hk usp 9 trigger. 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:27:41 PM EDT
[#46]
http://www.recoilweb.com/sw-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-custom-gunsmiths-80507.html
Here you go guys! Enjoy! Like I said, they were intentionally holding key pieces of information in an attempt to sway popular opinion against Smith. That is the liberal thing to do. Good job SSVI. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:28:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Problem is S&W doesn't make excellent guns anymore. M&P is shit Their revolvers are now shit Even their Performance Center is shit S&W stopped making good guns when they did lawyer locks, two piece barrels, and frame mounted firing pins along with ceasing production of the 3rd Gen Autos. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is a huge mistake for S&W. The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. M&P is shit Their revolvers are now shit Even their Performance Center is shit S&W stopped making good guns when they did lawyer locks, two piece barrels, and frame mounted firing pins along with ceasing production of the 3rd Gen Autos. I've got some M&Ps that would beg to differ. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:30:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fair enough, just a criticism of their business strategy then. I was getting a little antsy with lots of crazy stuff being said in the thread
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is a huge mistake for S&W. The best way to "win" most anything is to make your idea the most ubiquitous thing around ... That means not suing people customizing your excellent guns, S&W. Works out well for lots of people! http://www.uspto.gov/kids/graveyard.html Edit: That's a VERY short list. See Thermos, Trampoline, many others. As pointed out, one must defend their trademark. Such a strategy (making something ubiquitous and allowing others to freely use the trademark) is a recipe for losing the protections afforded. I understand the concept of defending your trademark more than you might realize... That said, my comment stands. You don't get to be Thermos or Kleenex or Xerox without your idea becoming ubiquitous. Suing the pants off of the little guys is not generally considered a recipe for ubiquity. Fair enough, just a criticism of their business strategy then. I was getting a little antsy with lots of crazy stuff being said in the thread
Totally! Yes, that's all my comment was intended to be. You don't get to be the ubiquitous option that everyone thinks of first by suing anyone who is essentially helping you sell more product. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:31:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Smith and Wesson. Because you suck, and we hate you.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 4:31:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Car companies are next, they have filed for government paperwork to allow this as well.
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