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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:07:08 AM EDT
[#1]
I have no problem with 4 day work weeks for people that actually do their job... BUT___ The same people who milk the clock on a 40 hour work week, will milk the clock on a 36 hour work week. Some people just have to feel they are "getting over" on their employer, and co-workers. It is called time theft. You know, the fuckers that show up late, take an extra 1/2 hour for lunch, and leave early every day. Everybody else in the group has to take up their work... "Do me a solid"?? Fuck you. Do it yourself.
Rant over. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:08:48 AM EDT
[#2]
There was also a study that says we should all be in 640 sq. ft. living spaces uses barely any electricity. We should also be eating mostly plants and bugs. To save the world. My faith in "studies" is...diminishing.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:11:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5x8's, like the physical office, is for chumps and boomers. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:13:59 AM EDT
[#4]
I don't understand why 4 x 10 isn't a bigger thing.... it's a great perk that costs the company nothing (and may actually reduce costs), and can result in higher productivity.
Is it for every worker/job? No, obviously not. But it would be a win-win for many. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:15:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was also a study that says we should all be in 640 sq. ft. living spaces uses barely any electricity. We should also be eating mostly plants and bugs. To save the world. My faith in "studies" is...diminishing. You do you. If you think you're more productive working longer hours, then maybe you are. But, science kinda says you're an outlier. And, since you are, then you probably shouldn't be defining labor practices for others. This study mirrors everything I've ever known about labor and productivity, and it mirrors most every other study on the subject. It shares little with a study about living in third world conditions. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:15:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or look at something simple like an assembly line worker. Let's say they make 400 parts in 40 hours. They won't make 400 parts in 36 hours. So how will that change wages or the price of the part they produce? But if that worker makes most of their errors after 7 hours of work, then their productivity could actually be higher only working 35 hours. Or if they make most errors after 35 hours total work - you know the whole "you never want to buy a car built on Friday" trope - then your overall productivity could actually be higher. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:15:22 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Four day workweek also leads to more demand for goods and services, which is also good for the economy. Think about having a three day weekend every week? More time to recreate, work on house projects, etc. All that stuff helps the economy just as much as anything. I’ve always wondered why four 10s isn’t more common. If our department did it I’d strongly consider going to a 40hr position. I put the company on 4/10 hr days back in the late 80's, three day weekends for a 5 month span the problem was the guys couldn't hack it, and wanted to go back to 5/8 for the duration. it was tough for me also, because with no employees here on Friday, I had to unload trucks, and keep the office running for the day. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:16:01 AM EDT
[#8]
The construction industry will never go to four day (or 40 hour) work weeks so I don't have to worry about that.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:17:03 AM EDT
[#9]
4x10s is fine. And as employer, I’m fine with it.
However, as a service provider. If we want to move to 4x10s. Don’t expect 6-7 day a week delivery service. Our economy is going towards 7 days a week work. If 4x10s is the answer, I would essentially need two entire sets of office staff, driver, everything. Then you, the consumer would need to pay for that. Currently I provide 5 days a week service. With emergency call outs (with fees) - so if we go down to 4 days a week. My customers will either have to Match, or pay more. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:19:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I put the company on 4/10 hr days back in the late 80's, three day weekends for a 5 month span the problem was the guys couldn't hack it, and wanted to go back to 5/8 for the duration. it was tough for me also, because with no employees here on Friday, I had to unload trucks, and keep the office running for the day. When I was working for companies that did 4-10's or 3-12's, it was always splitting days between equal employees. The one exception I give for 4 day work weeks being advantageous are for small operations with not enough manpower to carry the 5 day workweek. Sounds like you were in that boat, in which case it makes little sense. But, let's look at the subject at hand closer....what if your guys were reduced to 7 hours in 5 days instead of 8 and paid the same? Would you have expected deleterious outcomes from this? That's really what the study is getting at. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:20:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please read the article and stop talking about 4 10 hour shifts. They reduced it to 4 9 hour shifts or less, effectively stating that a 40 hour work week is not needed for productivity. Sounds great, but do they ignore the part that most customer service is not about productivity alone and requires availability? There's a locksmith shop here in the town where I live. This town is a bedroom community for the city. The locksmith has a great selection, and do good work. But they're only open 9A to 4P M-F I asked them how they stayed in business when most people can't use their services. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:20:23 AM EDT
[#12]
The five day, eight hour work week is the biggest timesuck every devised by man or beast.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:20:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Not hiring retards would prolly be the best policy.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:22:44 AM EDT
[#14]
I worked 4/10s for years.
I loved it. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:23:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Commie euro researchers say they should have Fridays off! Euros always comment Americans work too much. Then wonder why the USA has the highest standard of living on the planet. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:23:54 AM EDT
[#16]
I’ll add this, the one thing Europe really does have figured out over the US is the emphasis on “holiday” time off. They really emphasize time with family/recreation.
Here in the US I know too many people who work till their dying day for an employer who could care less about them due to some misplaced sense of pride. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:24:10 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not hiring retards would prolly be the best policy. Not putting retards in charge of people has a more positive outcome, historically. 20 people with 5 of them being retards, with the Pareto principle still in effect, won't destroy your widget operation. 20 people with 0 retards, but one retard managing them will destroy your widget operation. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:24:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, obviously it's not universal...but let's look at this in terms of a company that has commercial vehicles deployed and only makes money when the wheels are turning. If you have 4 employees driving 12 hours a day for 6 days a week, that's the exact same output as if you had 6 employees working 8 hours a day, but with 6 employees you can service more clients with 2 more vehicles. You have 6 guys working a more reasonable shift, more vehicles making you money, and haven't lost any output....and you put 2 more guys into the work field. Yes, that's simplistic and ignores some factors, but you get the idea that staffing isn't the same thing as individual output, right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Got a chuckle out of the article. Not sure how working less hours would make me and my coworkers more productive. If the wheels aren't turning on a commercial vehicle it's not being productive. Well, obviously it's not universal...but let's look at this in terms of a company that has commercial vehicles deployed and only makes money when the wheels are turning. If you have 4 employees driving 12 hours a day for 6 days a week, that's the exact same output as if you had 6 employees working 8 hours a day, but with 6 employees you can service more clients with 2 more vehicles. You have 6 guys working a more reasonable shift, more vehicles making you money, and haven't lost any output....and you put 2 more guys into the work field. Yes, that's simplistic and ignores some factors, but you get the idea that staffing isn't the same thing as individual output, right? That would work great. If most companies weren't having problems filling the seats of the vehicles they already have. To make up for the greatly increased wages needed to get the additional 2 drivers productivity per worked hour would need to increase. Without a per person per hour increase margin would drop. Slim margins in the industry to begin with. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:24:47 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The five day, eight hour work week is the biggest timesuck every devised by man or beast. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:25:30 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got a chuckle out of the article. Not sure how working less hours would make me and my coworkers more productive. If the wheels aren't turning on a commercial vehicle it's not being productive. It obviously doesn’t apply to many industries but for office work it can work very well. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:26:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Manufacturing, production, etc. can do 4-10s
You can’t do that with a customer service/retail based model. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:27:11 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't understand why 4 x 10 isn't a bigger thing.... it's a great perk that costs the company nothing (and may actually reduce costs), and can result in higher productivity. Is it for every worker/job? No, obviously not. But it would be a win-win for many. A lot of client based companies don't like it, since their people are already working 10hour days. I overheard a owner of a previous employer say his company would never, ever go to 4-10s because he'd lose 20% of billable hours across the employee pool. It was a "40 hour" job, but most people billed 50+ in any given week. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:27:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, generations of Americans a century ago organized and fought for that very thing, and were delighted when they got it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The five day, eight hour work week is the biggest timesuck every devised by man or beast. Because it was an improvement and reduction of work hours. Even Henry Ford agreed. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:27:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Euros always comment Americans work too much. Then wonder why the USA has the highest standard of living on the planet. If your only metric is standard of living, it's fair to chant USA! USA! What if we throw in stress related illnesses? Heart disease? Happiness index? Free time? Those things matter too. It all matters. Balance, Daniel San. But, anyway....let's talk about what the topic is actually about. If you take 4-5 hours away from someone's shift in a week, or even an entire shift, does it hurt your productivity? Seems like not so much. So, maybe the Euros have a point here. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:28:40 AM EDT
[#25]
I'll remember that when people are calling about their loved ones dying at home. Sorry already worked 4 days this week, guess I'll see you Monday.
Pants on head retarded shit from people who sit behind computers and are paid to "think". |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of my guys work 4 - 12s and are done. They like it a lot more I worked this schedule once. 4 - 12s then 4 days off. I loved it and was much more productive. I think the 4 days off was like a reset. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:04 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please read the article and stop talking about 4 10 hour shifts. They reduced it to 4 9 hour shifts or less, effectively stating that a 40 hour work week is not needed for productivity. Sounds great, but do they ignore the part that most customer service is not about productivity alone and requires availability? Employee Group A works 9-5 Mon-Thurs. Employee Group B works 9-5 Tues-Fri. Problem solved. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But if that worker makes most of their errors after 7 hours of work, then their productivity could actually be higher only working 35 hours. Or if they make most errors after 35 hours total work - you know the whole "you never want to buy a car built on Friday" trope - then your overall productivity could actually be higher. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Or look at something simple like an assembly line worker. Let's say they make 400 parts in 40 hours. They won't make 400 parts in 36 hours. So how will that change wages or the price of the part they produce? But if that worker makes most of their errors after 7 hours of work, then their productivity could actually be higher only working 35 hours. Or if they make most errors after 35 hours total work - you know the whole "you never want to buy a car built on Friday" trope - then your overall productivity could actually be higher. No, if they make most errors after 7 hours then under a 5 day 40 hour week they are in the error zone for 5 hours. If they are working 4 days at 9 hours then that is 8 hours in the error zone. If they are working 4 days at 10 hours now they are 12 hours in the error zone. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:26 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 4x10s is fine. And as employer, I’m fine with it. However, as a service provider. If we want to move to 4x10s. Don’t expect 6-7 day a week delivery service. Our economy is going towards 7 days a week work. If 4x10s is the answer, I would essentially need two entire sets of office staff, driver, everything. Then you, the consumer would need to pay for that. Currently I provide 5 days a week service. With emergency call outs (with fees) - so if we go down to 4 days a week. My customers will either have to Match, or pay more. We got rid of 4x10s because our internal product development ground to a halt on Fridays |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It isn't the hours, it isn't the days of the week, it isn't the shift preference, it isn't the work, it is shitty management that makes a company unbearable. Correct. And in government contracting, it's full of lunkheads who, if given more leisure time, would be even lunk-headier. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:32 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, generations of Americans a century ago organized and fought for that very thing, and were delighted when they got it. Because it was 6-16s before that. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:29:56 AM EDT
[#32]
How is "productivity" being measured in these studies? It's not in the article.
If a person can make 1 widget an hour, and makes 40 a week on a regular schedule, and when they reduce their work hours to 35, they make 35 widgets a week, some would say "productivity wasn't impacted negatively because the rate per hour didn't change." Or, lets say the person can increase their rate per hour, they work 35 hours and produce 38. Now you could say productivity was impacted positively by the reduced hour schedule, because the worker is now producing 1.09 widgets per hour. But the company still doesn't ship 40 that week, only 38. I'm not opposed to the idea that people are more productive when they don't feel like they're suffocating under excessive hours. I see it plain as day whenever we have to do mandatory overtime. The first two weeks, we have a noticeable bump in throughput. After that, it dwindles back to where it was when working straight 40 hour weeks, as people get burned out. At the same time, there is *never* an instance of a holiday week where, with 1 day off so a 25% reduction in hours worked, where throughput even comes close to matching the full week prior or after the holiday. Are people more efficient during that short 30 hour week? Maybe. But there's an almost direct correlation between hour reduction and throughput reduction (when talking about 40 to 30). Maybe that means that our employees like their 4x10 well enough that a further reduction wouldn't be an improvement. Regardless it's hard to have a discussion without the metrics being used outside of a generalized "productivity" label. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:30:02 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would work great. If most companies weren't having problems filling the seats of the vehicles they already have. To make up for the greatly increased wages needed to get the additional 2 drivers productivity per worked hour would need to increase. Without a per person per hour increase margin would drop. Slim margins in the industry to begin with. That's why I said it was simplistic and ignores some factors. Obviously labor is complex, but this is a simple finding based on an individual's ability to be productive and what that can mean for some (not all) companies. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:31:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not really. Work ethic and job expectations are not the same in every country. Look at your average American worker compared to your average Japanese worker. Also if the US adopted this wouldn't it just give more of an advantage to China and the other cheap labor countries? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why are we paying attention to a study about productivity from a country that doesn't produce much of anything? I can link you two half a dozen done here the states that echo the same thing, if you'd like. Human beings are human beings, and the same deleterious practices affect them in Zimbabwe or Dallas. Not really. Work ethic and job expectations are not the same in every country. Look at your average American worker compared to your average Japanese worker. Also if the US adopted this wouldn't it just give more of an advantage to China and the other cheap labor countries? US workers are often more productive than the Japanese precisely because the Japanese work too many hours. Same with Koreans and Chinese. I have seen it first hand and have documented proof in my field. They put in more time, we get more done. The Europeans put in less time than us and get less done because they are so secure in their jobs they truly don’t give a shit. It really isn’t working out for them though as we take work away and close those offices. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:31:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Manufacturing, production, etc. can do 4-10s You can't do that with a customer service/retail based model. Sure you can, if the labor pool is large enough to cover the gaps. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:32:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I was working for companies that did 4-10's or 3-12's, it was always splitting days between equal employees. The one exception I give for 4 day work weeks being advantageous are for small operations with not enough manpower to carry the 5 day workweek. Sounds like you were in that boat, in which case it makes little sense. But, let's look at the subject at hand closer....what if your guys were reduced to 7 hours in 5 days instead of 8 and paid the same? Would you have expected deleterious outcomes from this? That's really what the study is getting at. would do me no good to cut to 7/5 , the company does a lot of production welding, usually 1 hr run time to complete a part if I lose an hour a day, I lose one part a day, and my customers need those extra 5 parts per week, as usual everyone needs everything in a hurry, and these parts are so big they take up the whole shop if I was forced to go 7/5 It would be bad news for the employees here, because I would be forced to replace them with machines that would do the job without them. which may be coming anyway with the amount of available employees who will work full time |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:35:45 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll remember that when people are calling about their loved ones dying at home. Sorry already worked 4 days this week, guess I'll see you Monday. Pants on head retarded shit from people who sit behind computers and are paid to "think". Not sure what the hell people dying at home have to do with individual productivity. You're talking about a company level staffing issue. Do you work 24/7? Do you ever sleep? Ever have any free time whatsoever? How can you justify that with people dying at home? See the problem yet? All business has schedule/staffing/availability concerns. That's not what this is about. Hospitals are life and death, but nurses and doctors manage to have differing schedules that sometimes allow them to have days off...sometimes multiple in a row. PS, I'm paid to sit behind a computer and think. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:36:54 AM EDT
[#38]
I keep thinking about asking my boss for 4 - 10s. But I can't get my responsibilities done in 40hrs now. So I would be working Friday anyway.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:37:00 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Makes sense to me. 4 ten hour days is logically more productive than 5 eights. That's 20% fewer groggy mornings, and 50% more weekend fun time. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:39:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is "productivity" being measured in these studies? It's not in the article. If a person can make 1 widget an hour, and makes 40 a week on a regular schedule, and when they reduce their work hours to 35, they make 35 widgets a week, some would say "productivity wasn't impacted negatively because the rate per hour didn't change." Or, lets say the person can increase their rate per hour, they work 35 hours and produce 38. Now you could say productivity was impacted positively by the reduced hour schedule, because the worker is now producing 1.09 widgets per hour. But the company still doesn't ship 40 that week, only 38. I'm not opposed to the idea that people are more productive when they don't feel like they're suffocating under excessive hours. I see it plain as day whenever we have to do mandatory overtime. The first two weeks, we have a noticeable bump in throughput. After that, it dwindles back to where it was when working straight 40 hour weeks, as people get burned out. At the same time, there is *never* an instance of a holiday week where, with 1 day off so a 25% reduction in hours worked, where throughput even comes close to matching the full week prior or after the holiday. Are people more efficient during that short 30 hour week? Maybe. But there's an almost direct correlation between hour reduction and throughput reduction (when talking about 40 to 30). Maybe that means that our employees like their 4x10 well enough that a further reduction wouldn't be an improvement. Regardless it's hard to have a discussion without the metrics being used outside of a generalized "productivity" label. Fire up Google. There's at least 100 articles about long hours and productivity and the measurements and metrics vary from vague to excruciatingly specific in what has been looked at over the years. There's just no credible science anywhere that shows increasing hours has a good effect on productivity, and mountains that show the opposite. Don't we all know this from our own daily lives? Are you better when you're fresh and rested or stressed and tired? This seems like a layup. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:40:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure you can, if the labor pool is large enough to cover the gaps. Yet, all I hear from everyone I talk to in construction and service industries is that the "labor pool" is now dried up. Literally. Everyone trying to produce in this region is hamstrung by lack of labor. But, let's commit to having those who are now actually working work fewer hours. Which decision will probably be followed by a call to open the borders even wider, and ship in even more third world workers. Hmmmmm. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:41:26 AM EDT
[#42]
I work 4 12 hour days and get 4 days off. It’s awesome. A few years ago we were forced to work 2 extra shifts. It turned into 6 12 hour days and 2 days off. 72 hour weeks. It sucked. They had us come in, be not needed for a job, not able to leave because we came in. Just stupid shit. Come in after a block of 3 months of consecutive 72 hour forced shifts and management was so disorganized they didn’t have work lined up first thing at the start of the shift. But I couldn’t show up late because they can’t do their jobs. There is no feeling like just staring down incompetent management for long periods of time.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:43:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Want more productivity?
Provide incentives. Give the workers a cut of the take if they get'er done. Give them to understand that, if the work doesn't get done, nobody makes any money. Works for me. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:43:58 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 10 hours makes for a long work day. A few weeks of that will drag on you especially when you no longer make overtime past the 8 hour mark which is a psychological motivator. However, having 3 days off would be awesome. Not entirely sure which way I'd prefer. I work outside (surveyor) , the heat is kicking my ass at 8 hrs a day. Add 2 more hours , I'd probably stroke out . I love the idea , I couldn't do it in the summer . |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:45:17 AM EDT
[#45]
We found production dropped at a 4-day work week. So, the study isn’t conclusive. FWIW, I’m a government employee and am [partly] tasked with monitoring performance metrics.
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:45:25 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Want more productivity? Provide incentives. Give the workers a cut of the take if they get'er done. Give them to understand that, if the work doesn't get done, nobody makes any money. Works for me. Profit sharing is a thing in a lot of industries. Also, a lot of employees don’t give a single fuck about profit sharing. Look at the UAW. Also look at commission based sales agents. Once they hit their personal metric. They stop giving a fuck a lot of times. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:45:58 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: PS, I'm paid to sit behind a computer and think. Many jobs don’t really pay people to think although they should. They use silly metrics to prove people are working and then they wonder why they aren’t getting the results they want. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:46:36 AM EDT
[#48]
4x10s sucks.
I work a traditional 8x5 schedule except summers when they put us all on 4x10s. Everyone hates it. We have to be at work an hour earlier and either cut our lunch a half-hour shorter AND stay a half-hour longer, or stay an hour longer (after getting there an hour early). Fridays off are nice, but it just meas you spend all day catching up on what you couldn't get done Mon-Thu since you were at work 2 extra hours/day. 4x10s especially suck if you're a parent with young kids. It's that much more time every day you're away from them during an important part of their development. You're never going to get that time with them back. 
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:47:09 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fire up Google. There's at least 100 articles about long hours and productivity and the measurements and metrics vary from vague to excruciatingly specific in what has been looked at over the years. There's just no credible science anywhere that shows increasing hours has a good effect on productivity, and mountains that show the opposite. Don't we all know this from our own daily lives? Are you better when you're fresh and rested or stressed and tired? This seems like a layup. Because my compensation, and my business, depends upon it. It's called discipline. I don't work for the Government. |
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Posted: 7/7/2021 11:47:56 AM EDT
[#50]
Long hours over 8 for 5 or 6 days every week is good only for accomplishing drudge work, pushing paper, and surfing through meetings.
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