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Posted: 11/8/2015 1:32:56 AM EDT
[#1]
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That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The bull pup would seem better for indoor use, given the shorter OAL and better center of gravity. That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. Do you need 3MOA for home defense? I would argue, you do not. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 4:49:25 AM EDT
[#2]
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Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles.
Tavors are junk for CQB bro. Deal with it. Also have junk accuracy. Also are heavy as shit. Also are expensive. Not sure what they do well? |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 5:35:32 AM EDT
[#3]
Marines were clearing rooms in Fallujah with 20" M16A4s.
Not ideal, for sure, but a 16" AR is just fine for HD. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 5:39:52 AM EDT
[#4]
chose the one you are trained on the best. duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Posted: 11/8/2015 5:41:18 AM EDT
[#5]
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Marines were clearing rooms in Fallujah with 20" M16A4s. Not ideal, for sure, but a 16" AR is just fine for HD. My cqb experience, I used an m4. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 7:16:02 AM EDT
[#6]
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Tavors are junk for CQB bro. Deal with it. Also have junk accuracy. Also are heavy as shit. Also are expensive. Not sure what they do well? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles.
Tavors are junk for CQB bro. Deal with it. Also have junk accuracy. Also are heavy as shit. Also are expensive. Not sure what they do well? Pfffft. Bro, what would you, other military members on this forum, special forces, and SWAT across the world know about door kicking or clearing rooms. Obviously you must be wrong, because the Australian army uses bullpups and they must know a lot about war and CQB. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 8:41:46 AM EDT
[#7]
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Pfffft. Bro, what would you, other military members on this forum, special forces, and SWAT across the world know about door kicking or clearing rooms. Obviously you must be wrong, because the Australian army uses bullpups and they must know a lot about war and CQB. I know right. For some reason, the high speed dudes in Australia, just like the high speed dudes in all countries that have general issue bullpups, use.........ARs. 
Someone needs to tell all those idiots whats up! |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 8:52:35 AM EDT
[#8]
I have always been an ar guy, got quite a few but then I picked up a Tavor. In my opinion it is a great rifle that excels in certain areas. Is it perfect? No, but then again nothing is. It has replaced my ar for a go to around the house rifle. The speed and ease in manipulating it indoors and inside vehicles far exceeds that of a standard ar. I believe it is more accurate than most in this thread believe probably around 1.5 moa if the shooter does his job. However, the Tavor was never intended as a long range precision rifle. For the ranges it was designed for it is more then accurate enough, I personally cannot imagine a self defense scenario where you would take a shot exceeding 100 yards. (Not to say that the Tavor is not capable of that, I would just personally use something else for shots over 100 yards)
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:07:38 AM EDT
[#9]
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Side eject bullpups are WORSE indoors than an AR. Most others are too due to set up. You guys advocating them need to learn some modern cqb stuff. Yeah, greater overall length the better indoors. 20 or 24" AR is best for reaching across the living room and touching someone. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:08:01 AM EDT
[#10]
I like my Tavor. Use it as my bedside rifle. That being said - I also have an AR15 that shares the job. They both work when I pull the trigger, and I can hit what I aim at with both. Pretty sure that's what matters.
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:12:23 AM EDT
[#11]
Plus I like having a 16.5" barrel in the Tavor versus even a ten or eleven inch barrel in an sbr that has a longer overall length.
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:14:13 AM EDT
[#12]
Neither
8" SBR 300 BLK with a can |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:18:55 AM EDT
[#13]
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Yeah, greater overall length the better indoors. 20 or 24" AR is best for reaching across the living room and touching someone. One day someone may teach you how to correctly do indoor stuff. On that day, thank them. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:22:38 AM EDT
[#14]
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Marines were clearing rooms in Fallujah with 20" M16A4s. Not ideal, for sure, but a 16" AR is just fine for HD. Most here don't realize this but when the 20" M16 was first introduced into service during the Viet Nam war it was touted as a "carbine." |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 9:29:30 AM EDT
[#15]
I have the RFB as the "go-to" rifle in the house... but if something gets interesting in the night, Im starting with the glock unless its confirmed to be bad guys
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Posted: 11/8/2015 11:46:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Former tavor owner here. They do have decent to good accuracy with a good trigger in and good match ammo. As one poster said, "there is no good way to grab it that feels natural or intuitive." Sure they can be fired one handed, so can a 14.5" or shorter ar. The tavor is Fuckin bad when suppressed, all the excess gas from over gassed piston blows out in ur eyes/nose. The vid showing left hand firing also shoes that guy hold is head back 4-5" from were it would normally be on stock. In the real world, under stress, u would forget to do that and either cause a jam or get a case stabbed in your cheek.
I do like in these comparisons that pics of tavors next to ars, the ar always have the stock all the way out. Usually about fully collapsed or pos1 is ideal, unless ur a wookie or a tard that mounted ur scope to far back. My tavor, with no optic or light, weighed more then my 14.5 LW with an aimpoint pro and m952v. With the dbal mounted they were equal. Why, in most of the HD threads, do some people complain that a 10.5" ar will be ineffective or will not be as lethal as a 16". Do these people not realize that they aren't required to use m193 or m855? My 10.5" pistol still gets 2500 with most 55 gr soft point or horn tap, pretty sure that will provide all the fragmentation/ bullet upset to be effective inside 150 yds. In fact it is lethal on yotes to 200 yds so I'm sure across the room distances it will be gtg. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 11:52:09 AM EDT
[#17]
No SBR, Tavor with 40 rounds PMAG (or similar).
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Posted: 11/8/2015 11:56:39 AM EDT
[#18]
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Former tavor owner here. They do have decent to good accuracy with a good trigger in and good match ammo. As one poster said, "there is no good way to grab it that feels natural or intuitive." Sure they can be fired one handed, so can a 14.5" or shorter ar. The tavor is Fuckin bad when suppressed, all the excess gas from over gassed piston blows out in ur eyes/nose. The vid showing left hand firing also shoes that guy hold is head back 4-5" from were it would normally be on stock. In the real world, under stress, u would forget to do that and either cause a jam or get a case stabbed in your cheek. I do like in these comparisons that pics of tavors next to ars, the ar always have the stock all the way out. Usually about fully collapsed or pos1 is ideal, unless ur a wookie or a tard that mounted ur scope to far back. My tavor, with no optic or light, weighed more then my 14.5 LW with an aimpoint pro and m952v. With the dbal mounted they were equal. Why, in most of the HD threads, do some people complain that a 10.5" ar will be ineffective or will not be as lethal as a 16". Do these people not realize that they aren't required to use m193 or m855? My 10.5" pistol still gets 2500 with most 55 gr soft point or horn tap, pretty sure that will provide all the fragmentation/ bullet upset to be effective inside 150 yds. In fact it is lethal on yotes to 200 yds so I'm sure across the room distances it will be gtg. I have a really big living room though. I'm not sure the 10.5" will have the proper knock-down power |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 11:57:56 AM EDT
[#19]
I like the idea of the ar15 and a bullpup for home defense. I built up a pretty nice 14.5" AR with premium components and in practice with it a lot.
However, when I'm tired and awakened at night, I find myself always grabbing the glock with light attached to go check out the bumps in the night. How about you guys? |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 12:05:57 PM EDT
[#20]
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bullpups rock indoors this is an AUG with a 20" barrel vs a 10.5" AR. Going with a 16" AUG will still get you a more compact package than that AR even with the stock fully collapsed http://www.silencertalk.com/albums/Steyr/IMG_0800.jpg I so want an AUG |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 12:12:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Former tavor owner here. They do have decent to good accuracy with a good trigger in and good match ammo. As one poster said, "there is no good way to grab it that feels natural or intuitive." Sure they can be fired one handed, so can a 14.5" or shorter ar. The tavor is Fuckin bad when suppressed, all the excess gas from over gassed piston blows out in ur eyes/nose. The vid showing left hand firing also shoes that guy hold is head back 4-5" from were it would normally be on stock. In the real world, under stress, u would forget to do that and either cause a jam or get a case stabbed in your cheek. I do like in these comparisons that pics of tavors next to ars, the ar always have the stock all the way out. Usually about fully collapsed or pos1 is ideal, unless ur a wookie or a tard that mounted ur scope to far back. My tavor, with no optic or light, weighed more then my 14.5 LW with an aimpoint pro and m952v. With the dbal mounted they were equal. Why, in most of the HD threads, do some people complain that a 10.5" ar will be ineffective or will not be as lethal as a 16". Do these people not realize that they aren't required to use m193 or m855? My 10.5" pistol still gets 2500 with most 55 gr soft point or horn tap, pretty sure that will provide all the fragmentation/ bullet upset to be effective inside 150 yds. In fact it is lethal on yotes to 200 yds so I'm sure across the room distances it will be gtg. Dont tell them these things, they will be confused. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:13:06 PM EDT
[#22]
You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best.
Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:16:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best. Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. Is that a fake/knockoff "EOTech" thats being included? |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:17:06 PM EDT
[#24]
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Is that a fake/knockoff "EOTech" thats being included? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best. Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. Is that a fake/knockoff "EOTech" thats being included? You tell me. I was on the fence about its authenticity. ETA: I jumped on it last night after I saw the post about the EOTech, but this morning I couldn't find any pictures of an actual EOtech that matched the one in the picture. Haven't attempted to confirm yet with seller, but my purchase was contingent on it being authentic. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:18:13 PM EDT
[#25]
If you are using something that you could potentially be protecting yourself with, you should go with the one that you've trained with. I doubt you'd want to be fumbling around with a rifle when you're trying to not die.
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:20:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You tell me. I was on the fence about its authenticity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best. Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. Is that a fake/knockoff "EOTech" thats being included? You tell me. I was on the fence about its authenticity. Beats me. Thats why I was asking. Doesnt look like any legit ones Ive seen, but there is some really old models I may not be aware of that look cheezy like that. Like back when Bushnell made them, maybe? Id look into that if I were you and expecting a real "EOTech" as advertised and that played a factor in your purchase. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:40:43 PM EDT
[#27]
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Tavors are junk for CQB bro. Deal with it. Also have junk accuracy. Also are heavy as shit. Also are expensive. Not sure what they do well? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles.
Tavors are junk for CQB bro. Deal with it. Also have junk accuracy. Also are heavy as shit. Also are expensive. Not sure what they do well? I do deal with it; I was an early adopter of the platform and while you may not like the platform your junk statements are unfounded. Not to mention its role as a close quarters, urban fighting rifle is combat proven. I will certainly agree that I wish it was a pound lighter and hundreds cheaper, but I think it is fair value for the platform. It's not a DMR, but it certainly has combat effective accuracy. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 3:54:36 PM EDT
[#28]
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Beats me. Thats why I was asking. Doesnt look like any legit ones Ive seen, but there is some really old models I may not be aware of that look cheezy like that. Like back when Bushnell made them, maybe? Id look into that if I were you and expecting a real "EOTech" as advertised and that played a factor in your purchase. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best. Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. Is that a fake/knockoff "EOTech" thats being included? You tell me. I was on the fence about its authenticity. Beats me. Thats why I was asking. Doesnt look like any legit ones Ive seen, but there is some really old models I may not be aware of that look cheezy like that. Like back when Bushnell made them, maybe? Id look into that if I were you and expecting a real "EOTech" as advertised and that played a factor in your purchase. 90% sure it's the Bushnell,looks like the hood was painted. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 4:01:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 90% sure it's the Bushnell,looks like the hood was painted. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best. Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. Is that a fake/knockoff "EOTech" thats being included? You tell me. I was on the fence about its authenticity. Beats me. Thats why I was asking. Doesnt look like any legit ones Ive seen, but there is some really old models I may not be aware of that look cheezy like that. Like back when Bushnell made them, maybe? Id look into that if I were you and expecting a real "EOTech" as advertised and that played a factor in your purchase. 90% sure it's the Bushnell,looks like the hood was painted. Yeah we got another "investigative" thread going on. Its a Gen 1 Bushnell Holosight. May or may not be Eotech branded, but definitely made by Bushnell either way. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 4:04:15 PM EDT
[#30]
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I like the idea of the ar15 and a bullpup for home defense. I built up a pretty nice 14.5" AR with premium components and in practice with it a lot. However, when I'm tired and awakened at night, I find myself always grabbing the glock with light attached to go check out the bumps in the night. How about you guys? Yep, me too, Glock 22 with WML. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 4:05:36 PM EDT
[#31]
3 moa? Lol someone is a shitty shot. I've run mine in my rifle course, beat my times with it. It also had a tighter grouping than my free float colt. A heavy trigger magnifies bad habits that a shooter has while a light trigger hides it.
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Posted: 11/8/2015 4:06:06 PM EDT
[#32]
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You guys are the worst. I would call that poll along with the comments inconclusive at best. Say hello to the proud new owner of a TAVOR. I'll draw my own conclusions after some testing on the range. Congrats, can't wait until you get some trigger time and report back. |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 4:07:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Copy that. That would be great on a .22 AR, certainly not HD worthy. Pretty far cry from the current iteration of the Eotech.
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:48:28 AM EDT
[#34]
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One day someone may teach you how to correctly do indoor stuff. On that day, thank them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah, greater overall length the better indoors. 20 or 24" AR is best for reaching across the living room and touching someone. One day someone may teach you how to correctly do indoor stuff. On that day, thank them. Apparently sarcasm meter is broken. Shorter overall length is better indoors. True story. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 11:24:48 AM EDT
[#35]
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Apparently sarcasm meter is broken. Shorter overall length is better indoors. True story. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One day someone may teach you how to correctly do indoor stuff. On that day, thank them. Apparently sarcasm meter is broken. Shorter overall length is better indoors. True story. It could still happen! All you have to do is believe! |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 11:40:24 AM EDT
[#36]
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It could still happen! All you have to do is believe! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One day someone may teach you how to correctly do indoor stuff. On that day, thank them. Apparently sarcasm meter is broken. Shorter overall length is better indoors. True story. It could still happen! All you have to do is believe! 
What are you saying? 
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Posted: 11/9/2015 11:41:58 AM EDT
[#37]
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What are you saying? You dont know what you dont know, but where ever you go, there you are. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 11:44:50 AM EDT
[#38]
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You dont know what you dont know, but where ever you go, there you are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What are you saying? You dont know what you dont know, but where ever you go, there you are. I'll take a known unknown over unknown now known any day. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 11:47:33 AM EDT
[#39]
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You dont know what you dont know, but where ever you go, there you are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What are you saying? You dont know what you dont know, but where ever you go, there you are. Could you spell it out for those of use that aren't drunk by 10 AM? 
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Posted: 11/9/2015 11:55:15 AM EDT
[#40]
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I'll take a known unknown over unknown now known any day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What are you saying? You dont know what you dont know, but where ever you go, there you are. I'll take a known unknown over unknown now known any day. 
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:09:09 PM EDT
[#41]
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Could you spell it out for those of use that aren't drunk by 10 AM?
The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Id take a 20in AR with a collapsable stock over a Tavor indoors any day. 16in ARs are infinitely better indoors than a Tavor. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:20:38 PM EDT
[#42]
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The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Why? Not trolling, genuinely trying to learn/understand. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:29:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Id take a 20in AR with a collapsable stock over a Tavor indoors any day. 16in ARs are infinitely better indoors than a Tavor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Could you spell it out for those of use that aren't drunk by 10 AM? The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Id take a 20in AR with a collapsable stock over a Tavor indoors any day. 16in ARs are infinitely better indoors than a Tavor. the whole reason people collapse the stock on an AR for CQB is so bring the center of gravity in towards the body to allow for faster movement (and to make it shorter). with most bullpups, the center of gravity is still much closer to the body with its longer LoP than an AR will ever be. the LoP on an AUG is the same as an M4 with the stock extended. the balanced center or gravity allows you maneuver it with one hand...  (and no, it's not poor trigger discipline. on rifles with full length trigger guards, some armies train to push the index finger out against the inside of the guard) |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:29:53 PM EDT
[#44]
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Why? Not trolling, genuinely trying to learn/understand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Why? Not trolling, genuinely trying to learn/understand. As far as LOP, it messes up correct body positioning/ weapon maneuvering/ the ability to switch shoulders quickly if needed. As far as overall length its largely irrelevant unless you are getting nuts and beyond 20in if you are doing combat clear/ 45/90 / other newer stuff. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:30:54 PM EDT
[#45]
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The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Id take a 20in AR with a collapsable stock over a Tavor indoors any day. 16in ARs are infinitely better indoors than a Tavor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Could you spell it out for those of use that aren't drunk by 10 AM?
The ridiculously long length of pull on most bullpups is actually much more detrimental to a lot of CQB stuff than the overall length. (Let alone their lack of ambidextrousness.) Id take a 20in AR with a collapsable stock over a Tavor indoors any day. 16in ARs are infinitely better indoors than a Tavor. I embedded a vid in this thread showing a guy shooting a Tavor with his off hand, didn't appear to be bothering him. So it can be shot offhand. But then again he may be tougher than the average arfcom princess. As long as your rifle is absolutely reliable, then over 90% of the equation is the guy pulling the trigger, not the tool. A $1000 golf club don't make you Tiger Woods any more than an AR-15 makes you Jerry Miculek. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:31:31 PM EDT
[#46]
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the whole reason people collapse the stock on an AR for CQB is so bring the center of gravity in towards the body Lol ok. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:32:56 PM EDT
[#47]
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As long as your rifle is absolutely reliable, then over 90% of the equation is the guy pulling the trigger, not the tool. Then just sell all your modern guns and use a halberd. Its reliable 100% of the time. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:33:09 PM EDT
[#48]
EDIT - Question was about CQB length of pull and was answered above already.
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:35:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol ok. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: the whole reason people collapse the stock on an AR for CQB is so bring the center of gravity in towards the body Lol ok. what's the 'correct' reason then? to adjust for body armor? |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 12:40:28 PM EDT
[#50]
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what's the 'correct' reason then? to adjust for body armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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the whole reason people collapse the stock on an AR for CQB is so bring the center of gravity in towards the body Lol ok. what's the 'correct' reason then? to adjust for body armor? In for the lulz. |
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