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Posted: 10/9/2016 7:49:59 PM EST
[#1]
Bigstick, can you tell us who the guys are in the first of the movie where the dude gets taken from the car and executed.
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Posted: 10/9/2016 7:51:10 PM EST
[#2]
That was a great movie.
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Posted: 10/9/2016 7:51:52 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Picking the good guys is pretty hard. IMO Katanga had every right to succeed (but then I also root for the South in TWNA and Rhodesia.) Recognize that the world is not black and white. The guys that the Mercs ended up fighting, the Simbas, were much worse, classically bad raping and killing animists backed directly by the USSR. But its hard to view the Irish as bad guys, just soldiers doing the bidding of their country (who were doing the bidding of the UN) that were left hanging out to dry. I view the people the sent them there as bad guys. In a movie about Custer's last stand who do you root for? I never knew this story, and I consider my knowledge of the post colonial wars as pretty extensive. How many Americans could tell you about Angola, Namibia, Rhodesia, Mozambique, Biafra and Katanga? Hell, how many could even point to them on a map? I guess my particular interests began immediately after the UN pulled out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So when black guys are the bad guys it is really white guys behind them making them be the bad guys. The Black Guys fighting the Irish were good guys. Picking the good guys is pretty hard. IMO Katanga had every right to succeed (but then I also root for the South in TWNA and Rhodesia.) Recognize that the world is not black and white. The guys that the Mercs ended up fighting, the Simbas, were much worse, classically bad raping and killing animists backed directly by the USSR. But its hard to view the Irish as bad guys, just soldiers doing the bidding of their country (who were doing the bidding of the UN) that were left hanging out to dry. I view the people the sent them there as bad guys. In a movie about Custer's last stand who do you root for? I never knew this story, and I consider my knowledge of the post colonial wars as pretty extensive. How many Americans could tell you about Angola, Namibia, Rhodesia, Mozambique, Biafra and Katanga? Hell, how many could even point to them on a map? I guess my particular interests began immediately after the UN pulled out. The conflict involving the Simbas (and their Cuban backers) came later, maybe a year after Katanga was subdued once and for all by the UN and the Congo. Those guys were messed up. But the rebelling Force Publique and later the ANC, plus rebel tribesmen like the Balubas, dod some messed up things during this conflict. There was an instance where Congolese troops killed and, IIRC, ate their erstwhile allies, the Italians operating under the UN mission. The Congo ended up being a really bad place to be during the 1960s and has sucked ever since. By the 1970s they had lost nearly their entire white population, one of the larger ones in Africa, because of all that happened there. Regarding the Simbas, the film Dark of the Sun uses them as the bad guys, although it anachronistically sets the film in Katanga during the war with the UN (and the UN attacks the soldiers in the film). |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 7:55:08 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bigstick, can you tell us who the guys are in the first of the movie where the dude gets taken from the car and executed. They are depicting the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, a communist who had come to be the leader of Congo-Leopoldville, who was batshit crazy and using the ANC to commit mass slaughters, genocide, etc. and trying to align with the Soviets. The depiction isn't accurate, though. The Belgians had a pretty big role in his death, which was proven later on when a number of documents were released, IIRC. The movie seems to give Lumumba dialogue that make him appear sympathetic. |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 7:57:45 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suppose "bad guys" is not the best term. More of a reference to an early poster referring to "good" and "bad" guys, on my part. There is no questioning that the soldiers of this unit fought honourably for their country, which sent them there. They had their orders. It was their country and the organization it was serving that was doing bad, so by extension their mission was a bad thing, but they certainly acquitted themselves very well during the battle. They were fortunate that the majority of the attacking force was irregular/non-military. While I have no doubt they would have fought heroically otherwise, I'm not sure they would have fared as well if they were facing a force that size entirely composed of regulars, properly armed and equipped. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So when black guys are the bad guys it is really white guys behind them making them be the bad guys. The Black Guys fighting the Irish were good guys. Hmm , I was thinking about something that happened a few years later. It looks like there were no good guys in this one. Although this company really had no choice in the bad decision to send them there. I suppose "bad guys" is not the best term. More of a reference to an early poster referring to "good" and "bad" guys, on my part. There is no questioning that the soldiers of this unit fought honourably for their country, which sent them there. They had their orders. It was their country and the organization it was serving that was doing bad, so by extension their mission was a bad thing, but they certainly acquitted themselves very well during the battle. They were fortunate that the majority of the attacking force was irregular/non-military. While I have no doubt they would have fought heroically otherwise, I'm not sure they would have fared as well if they were facing a force that size entirely composed of regulars, properly armed and equipped. I have to admit, my train of thought was going with the events of a few years later involving the Simbas and the Belgian paratroops. I didn't know anything about this particular set of events. Thanks for the large and very informative write-ups bigstick. Most interesting reading I've done this week. |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 7:59:11 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are depicting the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, a communist who had come to be the leader of Congo-Leopoldville, who was batshit crazy and using the ANC to commit mass slaughters, genocide, etc. and trying to align with the Soviets. The depiction isn't accurate, though. The Belgians had a pretty big role in his death, which was proven later on when a number of documents were released, IIRC. The movie seems to give Lumumba dialogue that make him appear sympathetic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bigstick, can you tell us who the guys are in the first of the movie where the dude gets taken from the car and executed. They are depicting the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, a communist who had come to be the leader of Congo-Leopoldville, who was batshit crazy and using the ANC to commit mass slaughters, genocide, etc. and trying to align with the Soviets. The depiction isn't accurate, though. The Belgians had a pretty big role in his death, which was proven later on when a number of documents were released, IIRC. The movie seems to give Lumumba dialogue that make him appear sympathetic. IOW, it was a good shoot.  Was Moishe the black guy? Who was the fat white dude supposed to be? |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 8:07:44 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are depicting the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, a communist who had come to be the leader of Congo-Leopoldville, who was batshit crazy and using the ANC to commit mass slaughters, genocide, etc. and trying to align with the Soviets. The depiction isn't accurate, though. The Belgians had a pretty big role in his death, which was proven later on when a number of documents were released, IIRC. The movie seems to give Lumumba dialogue that make him appear sympathetic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bigstick, can you tell us who the guys are in the first of the movie where the dude gets taken from the car and executed. They are depicting the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, a communist who had come to be the leader of Congo-Leopoldville, who was batshit crazy and using the ANC to commit mass slaughters, genocide, etc. and trying to align with the Soviets. The depiction isn't accurate, though. The Belgians had a pretty big role in his death, which was proven later on when a number of documents were released, IIRC. The movie seems to give Lumumba dialogue that make him appear sympathetic. |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 8:26:17 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IOW, it was a good shoot.
Was Moishe the black guy? Who was the fat white dude supposed to be? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Bigstick, can you tell us who the guys are in the first of the movie where the dude gets taken from the car and executed. They are depicting the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, a communist who had come to be the leader of Congo-Leopoldville, who was batshit crazy and using the ANC to commit mass slaughters, genocide, etc. and trying to align with the Soviets. The depiction isn't accurate, though. The Belgians had a pretty big role in his death, which was proven later on when a number of documents were released, IIRC. The movie seems to give Lumumba dialogue that make him appear sympathetic. IOW, it was a good shoot.
Was Moishe the black guy? Who was the fat white dude supposed to be? I think the white guy was meant to be a Belgian or Frenchman. The black guy was meant to be Moise Tshombe (maybe a boss, handler, or businessman). Next to nothing went down like in the movie. |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 8:31:23 PM EST
[#9]
Looks like the only thing to like in this show is that it shows guns.
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Posted: 10/9/2016 11:11:19 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Threads like these are one of the saving graces of putting up with GD. Lots of good info here, many thanks to the contributors. Agreed. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/9/2016 11:18:08 PM EST
[#11]
OST! Cool history!
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Posted: 10/9/2016 11:39:27 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the only thing to like in this show is that it shows guns. It's got cool old guns (that could have easily been done wrong and most people wouldn't have noticed) It's got cool action scenes The history is off, but I liked the Patriot and the history in that was WAY worse |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 12:11:43 AM EST
[#13]
That movie was a fucking soup sandwich.
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Posted: 10/10/2016 2:19:57 PM EST
[#14]
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Posted: 10/10/2016 3:24:05 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which book has the pilot's interview? Major Joseph Delin, yes (or was it with the South African Fouga pilot)? I try to gather as many decent sources as I can on the subject; most are necessarily in French or Dutch, unfortunately, although I do what I can to translate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which book has the pilot's interview? Major Joseph Delin, yes (or was it with the South African Fouga pilot)? I try to gather as many decent sources as I can on the subject; most are necessarily in French or Dutch, unfortunately, although I do what I can to translate. No idea, second-hand information from Irish boards. In any case, the Irish position is certainly that Irish soldiers in Jadotville itself were attacked by the Fouga. eg https://youtu.be/Y9ZAAxeXk8s As for Hammarskjold, the evidence did not point to hostile action. There was no damage to the plane consistent with it being shot down. No other aircraft were spotted on radar. The aircraft behaved consistently with one having trouble landing. Tshombe also had no real motive to kill Hammarskjold; if anyone could have resolved things peacefully in a manner acceptable to Tshombe and the Katangese it was Hammarskjold. Also, IIRC (and I'd have to go back through sources to be sure), the Katangese aircraft and pilots all had alibis. Hammarskjold's death was very convenient, though, for those in the UN intent on crushing Katangese independence. The Left, naturally, had a vested interest in promoting the narrative that he was murdered by the Katangese and even after the results of the Rhodesian investigation continued to maintain that that is what happened (and typically still do). I have no position on Hammarskjold's death. However, given recent new information, and for whatever good it'll do, the UN has re-opened the investigation into his death. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/07/world/europe/dag-hammarskjold-death-ban-ki-moon.html Theories vary from South African to Rhodesian involvement on behalf of the British or Americans, but do not involve Tshombe. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 3:33:03 PM EST
[#16]
The U.S. State Dept. Aiding communist since 1918
 Ed |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 4:04:19 PM EST
[#17]
Wiki says 5 Irishmen wounded, none killed. Trailer looks far more violent?
w What gives? |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 4:05:12 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyway to see it without netflix? I'll keep it cold........... http://www.vmovee.com/action/the-siege-of-jadotville or http://fmovies.to/film/the-siege-of-jadotville.1nzkq/z1m66w or http://movietv.pro/the-siege-of-jadotville/ hope it's still there. Sorry, but I can't find the one I watched yesterday, with full subtitles. Aloha, Mark |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 4:09:32 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 5:11:38 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? This movie sucks with regard to such things, but there really isn't much else out there. Dark of the Sun merges the first two Congo Crises together for its setting. There was a movie glorifying Lumumba that covers some parallel stuff, but it is garbage like the Guevara movie. I'm not sure that anything else exists on the subject besides a portion of the documentary Africa Addio (which has both real and staged footage from this conflict in it). None of this, of course, makes this movie a good one or technically and historically accurate. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 5:54:51 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No idea, second-hand information from Irish boards. In any case, the Irish position is certainly that Irish soldiers in Jadotville itself were attacked by the Fouga. eg https://youtu.be/Y9ZAAxeXk8s I have no position on Hammarskjold's death. However, given recent new information, and for whatever good it'll do, the UN has re-opened the investigation into his death. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/07/world/europe/dag-hammarskjold-death-ban-ki-moon.html Theories vary from South African to Rhodesian involvement on behalf of the British or Americans, but do not involve Tshombe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Which book has the pilot's interview? Major Joseph Delin, yes (or was it with the South African Fouga pilot)? I try to gather as many decent sources as I can on the subject; most are necessarily in French or Dutch, unfortunately, although I do what I can to translate. No idea, second-hand information from Irish boards. In any case, the Irish position is certainly that Irish soldiers in Jadotville itself were attacked by the Fouga. eg https://youtu.be/Y9ZAAxeXk8s As for Hammarskjold, the evidence did not point to hostile action. There was no damage to the plane consistent with it being shot down. No other aircraft were spotted on radar. The aircraft behaved consistently with one having trouble landing. Tshombe also had no real motive to kill Hammarskjold; if anyone could have resolved things peacefully in a manner acceptable to Tshombe and the Katangese it was Hammarskjold. Also, IIRC (and I'd have to go back through sources to be sure), the Katangese aircraft and pilots all had alibis. Hammarskjold's death was very convenient, though, for those in the UN intent on crushing Katangese independence. The Left, naturally, had a vested interest in promoting the narrative that he was murdered by the Katangese and even after the results of the Rhodesian investigation continued to maintain that that is what happened (and typically still do). I have no position on Hammarskjold's death. However, given recent new information, and for whatever good it'll do, the UN has re-opened the investigation into his death. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/07/world/europe/dag-hammarskjold-death-ban-ki-moon.html Theories vary from South African to Rhodesian involvement on behalf of the British or Americans, but do not involve Tshombe. Sounds like a lot of conspiracy theory BS from the usual pro-UN, anti-U.S. people (including Goldstone). I wonder if that sort of theory is why the movie depicts an F-4 coming up on Hammarskjold's plane. Interestingly, I found an op-ed from the 1990s by O'Brien that basically mirrors the narrative of the movie, with the usual progressive language. It seems even clearer, in that context, what drove the movie's narrative. 
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:02:29 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not even Belgium, the most supportive of the countries to Katangan independence, recognized Katanga. This wasn't a plucky subregion gunning for independence, one thing the movie got right is that Tshombe never asked anyone. Heck, the Balubans killed more Irish than Tshombe did, and they didn't support him. His support was far from universal. It was the interests of the nations' private enterprises which seemed to buy sway for the former colonial governments. For a moral analogy, you're looking closer to the East India Trading Company's control of India than you are, say, Bosnian independence, You don't like the UN, fine, that does not, however, make its adversaries good guys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I just finished watching it.....Excellent. Vintage mil-surps galore. 
Fuck the UN....Root for the lads that were hung out to dry. 
They were the UN, essentially. If you serve evil you are complicit in it; they still put up a good fight, but it was important that they lose the battle. It helped put Katanga in a better position for a time. It helped give the UN a good shock. Unfortunately, the UN would end up doubling down. Not even Belgium, the most supportive of the countries to Katangan independence, recognized Katanga. This wasn't a plucky subregion gunning for independence, one thing the movie got right is that Tshombe never asked anyone. Heck, the Balubans killed more Irish than Tshombe did, and they didn't support him. His support was far from universal. It was the interests of the nations' private enterprises which seemed to buy sway for the former colonial governments. For a moral analogy, you're looking closer to the East India Trading Company's control of India than you are, say, Bosnian independence, You don't like the UN, fine, that does not, however, make its adversaries good guys. You're not looking for good guys in Africa, are you? |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:18:10 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy?  As to favorite movie, I've got to honestly say that everything out there is hollywood bullshit. Then again, it's not like there's a whole canon of Congo/Bushwar movies out there that are easily accessible, right? Which doesn't have much to do with the fact that this flick is still pretty bad. As to technical accuracy, I don't like any of 'em. (technical accuracy, in my meaning, is correct weapons for the period - the tactics and practices are horrible in everything I've seen). Wild Geese is meh (but advisors that were, shall we say, experienced) , this flick has R1's fer chrissake, and the "Bren Precision LMG Sniperage Holy Crap That's A Great Shot Magic Peep No Front Sight blah blah blah" was a wonderful thing to see. Then again, I didn't like "Sniper" either. "Who Killed Captain Alex" might be the best one so far. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:22:33 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This movie sucks with regard to such things, but there really isn't much else out there. Dark of the Sun merges the first two Congo Crises together for its setting. There was a movie glorifying Lumumba that covers some parallel stuff, but it is garbage like the Guevara movie. I'm not sure that anything else exists on the subject besides a portion of the documentary Africa Addio (which has both real and staged footage from this conflict in it). None of this, of course, makes this movie a good one or technically and historically accurate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? This movie sucks with regard to such things, but there really isn't much else out there. Dark of the Sun merges the first two Congo Crises together for its setting. There was a movie glorifying Lumumba that covers some parallel stuff, but it is garbage like the Guevara movie. I'm not sure that anything else exists on the subject besides a portion of the documentary Africa Addio (which has both real and staged footage from this conflict in it). None of this, of course, makes this movie a good one or technically and historically accurate. I was being sarcastic, I would only point out that any movie we watch is going to have technical and historical inaccuracies and even blatant lies to skew the viewers opinion. This movie isn't any worse than Blackhawk down or We Were Soldiers in that regard. Given the budget and the average person's total unfamiliarity with the historical subject, I would say it is AWESOME. I'm glad I got the link to Dark of the Sun, haven't watched that since I was a kid. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:27:50 PM EST
[#25]
I wanted to root for the Irishmen but those Blue UN helmets and berets YO
Not enough UN rape to be realistic |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:31:46 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wanted to root for the Irishmen but those Blue UN helmets and berets YO
Not enough UN rape to be realistic Thats the Bangladesh Blue Helmets. Heard they going back to Haiti they liked it so much.
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:34:58 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I try to be accurate in my reviews.
As to favorite movie, I've got to honestly say that everything out there is hollywood bullshit. Then again, it's not like there's a whole canon of Congo/Bushwar movies out there that are easily accessible, right? Which doesn't have much to do with the fact that this flick is still pretty bad. As to technical accuracy, I don't like any of 'em. (technical accuracy, in my meaning, is correct weapons for the period - the tactics and practices are horrible in everything I've seen). Wild Geese is meh (but advisors that were, shall we say, experienced) , this flick has R1's fer chrissake, and the "Bren Precision LMG Sniperage Holy Crap That's A Great Shot Magic Peep No Front Sight blah blah blah" was a wonderful thing to see. Then again, I didn't like "Sniper" either.
"Who Killed Captain Alex" might be the best one so far.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy?
As to favorite movie, I've got to honestly say that everything out there is hollywood bullshit. Then again, it's not like there's a whole canon of Congo/Bushwar movies out there that are easily accessible, right? Which doesn't have much to do with the fact that this flick is still pretty bad. As to technical accuracy, I don't like any of 'em. (technical accuracy, in my meaning, is correct weapons for the period - the tactics and practices are horrible in everything I've seen). Wild Geese is meh (but advisors that were, shall we say, experienced) , this flick has R1's fer chrissake, and the "Bren Precision LMG Sniperage Holy Crap That's A Great Shot Magic Peep No Front Sight blah blah blah" was a wonderful thing to see. Then again, I didn't like "Sniper" either.
"Who Killed Captain Alex" might be the best one so far.
The older R1s look very close to the Irish contract FALs. The only differences are the SA-style "Type 1.5" upper receiver and Type 2 lower receiver vs. the "Type 1" uppers and lowers on the Irish rifles (hard to tell except in close-up shots, especially with the carry handle down) and the fact that the rear sights and grenade sights are graduated in yards instead of metres on the Irish rifles (which you can't see in this film, anyways). If you're filming in Africa and need FALs to represent the Irish contract FALs, the only way you can do better than the R1 is by getting SA-contract FN FALs; I'll bet there was actually a mixture of FNs and older R1s in there. The use of No.4s instead of No.1s would seem to be the bigger technical goof as far as the Irish weapons go. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 6:41:21 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was being sarcastic, I would only point out that any movie we watch is going to have technical and historical inaccuracies and even blatant lies to skew the viewers opinion. This movie isn't any worse than Blackhawk down or We Were Soldiers in that regard. Given the budget and the average person's total unfamiliarity with the historical subject, I would say it is AWESOME. I'm glad I got the link to Dark of the Sun, haven't watched that since I was a kid. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? This movie sucks with regard to such things, but there really isn't much else out there. Dark of the Sun merges the first two Congo Crises together for its setting. There was a movie glorifying Lumumba that covers some parallel stuff, but it is garbage like the Guevara movie. I'm not sure that anything else exists on the subject besides a portion of the documentary Africa Addio (which has both real and staged footage from this conflict in it). None of this, of course, makes this movie a good one or technically and historically accurate. I was being sarcastic, I would only point out that any movie we watch is going to have technical and historical inaccuracies and even blatant lies to skew the viewers opinion. This movie isn't any worse than Blackhawk down or We Were Soldiers in that regard. Given the budget and the average person's total unfamiliarity with the historical subject, I would say it is AWESOME. I'm glad I got the link to Dark of the Sun, haven't watched that since I was a kid. Lol, that's about as subtle as sarcasm can get in written form. Blackhawk Down and We Were Soldiers were way better than this film in regards to such things, despite their errors, and didn't have a false Leftist narrative built-in. The historical and technical errors don't take much away from those films, especially the former one, but they were glaring and distracting in this film (but then I am familiar with the history and it is something that has been of special interest to me for years; that tends to make that effect worse). I'm not a fan of the only thing a person sees on an historical event to be so blatantly false; it wouldn't bother me as much if there were more films on the subject. Basically, this film is a work of fiction with some relation to real events, that's how bad it is. "Inspired by real events" would be a better preface to the film than "based on a true story." |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 8:11:50 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, that's about as subtle as sarcasm can get in written form. Blackhawk Down and We Were Soldiers were way better than this film in regards to such things, despite their errors, and didn't have a false Leftist narrative built-in. The historical and technical errors don't take much away from those films, especially the former one, but they were glaring and distracting in this film (but then I am familiar with the history and it is something that has been of special interest to me for years; that tends to make that effect worse). I'm not a fan of the only thing a person sees on an historical event to be so blatantly false; it wouldn't bother me as much if there were more films on the subject. Basically, this film is a work of fiction with some relation to real events, that's how bad it is. "Inspired by real events" would be a better preface to the film than "based on a true story." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That movie was a fucking soup sandwich. That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? This movie sucks with regard to such things, but there really isn't much else out there. Dark of the Sun merges the first two Congo Crises together for its setting. There was a movie glorifying Lumumba that covers some parallel stuff, but it is garbage like the Guevara movie. I'm not sure that anything else exists on the subject besides a portion of the documentary Africa Addio (which has both real and staged footage from this conflict in it). None of this, of course, makes this movie a good one or technically and historically accurate. I was being sarcastic, I would only point out that any movie we watch is going to have technical and historical inaccuracies and even blatant lies to skew the viewers opinion. This movie isn't any worse than Blackhawk down or We Were Soldiers in that regard. Given the budget and the average person's total unfamiliarity with the historical subject, I would say it is AWESOME. I'm glad I got the link to Dark of the Sun, haven't watched that since I was a kid. Lol, that's about as subtle as sarcasm can get in written form. Blackhawk Down and We Were Soldiers were way better than this film in regards to such things, despite their errors, and didn't have a false Leftist narrative built-in. The historical and technical errors don't take much away from those films, especially the former one, but they were glaring and distracting in this film (but then I am familiar with the history and it is something that has been of special interest to me for years; that tends to make that effect worse). I'm not a fan of the only thing a person sees on an historical event to be so blatantly false; it wouldn't bother me as much if there were more films on the subject. Basically, this film is a work of fiction with some relation to real events, that's how bad it is. "Inspired by real events" would be a better preface to the film than "based on a true story." Meh, I got more of an anti UN feel to it, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just got done re-watching Dark of the Sun, god I want and FAL and some Belgian cammies |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 9:23:20 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The use of No.4s instead of No.1s would seem to be the bigger technical goof as far as the Irish weapons go. I'm not an Enfield specialist (I own a No 4 though), and I can check on the Irish military sites, but I'm not convinced by that. Isn't the protruding barrel an indicator of a No 4? 
Osprey's "Modern African Wars: Congo 1960-2002" (Peter Abbot) specifies the British MkIII helmet, the 37 pattern webbing, and the No 4 rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe the No1 MkIII was the standard rifle for reserves until the FAL showed up in the 80s, but it does seem possible that the Congo troops got the latest batch of the things? |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 10:12:47 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not an Enfield specialist (I own a No 4 though), and I can check on the Irish military sites, but I'm not convinced by that. Isn't the protruding barrel an indicator of a No 4? http://66.media.tumblr.com/a40420d5773ca9e70211889fff99a603/tumblr_mvpr7ylV491rcoy9ro1_1280.jpg Osprey's "Modern African Wars: Congo 1960-2002" (Peter Abbot) specifies the British MkIII helmet, the 37 pattern webbing, and the No 4 rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe the No1 MkIII was the standard rifle for reserves until the FAL showed up in the 80s, but it does seem possible that the Congo troops got the latest batch of the things? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The use of No.4s instead of No.1s would seem to be the bigger technical goof as far as the Irish weapons go. I'm not an Enfield specialist (I own a No 4 though), and I can check on the Irish military sites, but I'm not convinced by that. Isn't the protruding barrel an indicator of a No 4? http://66.media.tumblr.com/a40420d5773ca9e70211889fff99a603/tumblr_mvpr7ylV491rcoy9ro1_1280.jpg Osprey's "Modern African Wars: Congo 1960-2002" (Peter Abbot) specifies the British MkIII helmet, the 37 pattern webbing, and the No 4 rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe the No1 MkIII was the standard rifle for reserves until the FAL showed up in the 80s, but it does seem possible that the Congo troops got the latest batch of the things? In fact something is telling me that one in the center of the pic is a Mk II. Those wool uniforms would suck in Africa. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 10:27:21 PM EST
[#32]
This film is a Pro Irish Soldoer piece of Propaganda and typical leftist spin. The Irish troops were the bad guys. They fought for the UN. Simple as that. They might be good lads and all that jazz but the UN were the bad guys.
This film as a piece of fiction actually made me hate the UN more. The bullshit lies the UN spews abut Freedom and Liberty for all people is garbage. If that were true, they woud have recognized Katanga..... hell, they'd of recognized the Republic of China. The line about Texas is my view. If Texas tomorrow told DC "Fuck you, we're leaving and taking our oil with us." I'd support the hell oit of Texas. I draw a parallel line. Secession is a righteous cause. Also Might Make Right/Not Everyone should be independent. Katanga should be free. They wanted to be a independent western nation with core values in the protection and beliefs of private property and capitalism. That I support for independence. Savage Commie Fucks and Backwards Tribes. Fuck them.... let them be ruled by colonial masters until they evolve. The UN is against what I support. They want a global leftist shithole of nationalized industry and open borders where everyone is fucked under socialist dogma. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 10:45:13 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very interesting. Bigstick might be biased, and perhaps rightly so. However, he's laid out a pretty good explanation of the events portrayed. I will watch, just to see how it's laid out. I have a hatred for the UN that comes directly working with those fucksticks. I completely agree with your last sentence, for the same reason. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 10:58:47 PM EST
[#34]
Dang, this is the best movie I've seen all year.
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Posted: 10/10/2016 11:03:23 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those are No 4s. Which unit is that and what year? In fact something is telling me that one in the center of the pic is a Mk II. Those wool uniforms would suck in Africa. Looks like 33 Battalion, from the tricolors and summer (!) kit, boarding August 1960. 34 had brassards and cold-weather kit, 32 didn't seem to wear national markings at all. Irish UN battalions are created and disbanded sequentially, so 33 Battalion was the second battalion to go to the Congo. They're up to the high 80s or low 90s now. ("Regular" battalions, obviously, the lower numbers, do not get disbanded and are permanent). The Jadotville lads were 35 battalion. And, yes, the uniforms sucked. Vets say they were stared at in disbelief by the American aircrew |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 11:29:33 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not an Enfield specialist (I own a No 4 though), and I can check on the Irish military sites, but I'm not convinced by that. Isn't the protruding barrel an indicator of a No 4? http://66.media.tumblr.com/a40420d5773ca9e70211889fff99a603/tumblr_mvpr7ylV491rcoy9ro1_1280.jpg Osprey's "Modern African Wars: Congo 1960-2002" (Peter Abbot) specifies the British MkIII helmet, the 37 pattern webbing, and the No 4 rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe the No1 MkIII was the standard rifle for reserves until the FAL showed up in the 80s, but it does seem possible that the Congo troops got the latest batch of the things? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The use of No.4s instead of No.1s would seem to be the bigger technical goof as far as the Irish weapons go. I'm not an Enfield specialist (I own a No 4 though), and I can check on the Irish military sites, but I'm not convinced by that. Isn't the protruding barrel an indicator of a No 4? http://66.media.tumblr.com/a40420d5773ca9e70211889fff99a603/tumblr_mvpr7ylV491rcoy9ro1_1280.jpg Osprey's "Modern African Wars: Congo 1960-2002" (Peter Abbot) specifies the British MkIII helmet, the 37 pattern webbing, and the No 4 rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe the No1 MkIII was the standard rifle for reserves until the FAL showed up in the 80s, but it does seem possible that the Congo troops got the latest batch of the things? |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 11:35:02 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God.... they look like they're in 1939. Yeah, after the Niemba ambush someone copped onto the idea that perhaps they needed something better than an Irish flag and the belief that everybody loves them to protect themselves. Hence the rapid re-equipping with FALs, and new, lighter uniforms. Until the 1980s or so, requipping was usually done as a result of operational needs and experience. Then, for whatever reason, they decided to try to stay ahead of the cutting edge (so I believe we were the first users of Javelin and SINCGARS outside of the US, for example) |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 11:37:34 PM EST
[#38]
Watching it now.
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Posted: 10/10/2016 11:49:23 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, after the Niemba ambush someone copped onto the idea that perhaps they needed something better than an Irish flag and the belief that everybody loves them to protect themselves. Hence the rapid re-equipping with FALs, and new, lighter uniforms. Until the 1980s or so, requipping was usually done as a result of operational needs and experience. Then, for whatever reason, they decided to try to stay ahead of the cutting edge (so I believe we were the first users of Javelin and SINCGARS outside of the US, for example) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: God.... they look like they're in 1939. Yeah, after the Niemba ambush someone copped onto the idea that perhaps they needed something better than an Irish flag and the belief that everybody loves them to protect themselves. Hence the rapid re-equipping with FALs, and new, lighter uniforms. Until the 1980s or so, requipping was usually done as a result of operational needs and experience. Then, for whatever reason, they decided to try to stay ahead of the cutting edge (so I believe we were the first users of Javelin and SINCGARS outside of the US, for example) Sickening..... but then again. The US does the same. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 12:54:46 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those are No 4s. Which unit is that and what year? In fact something is telling me that one in the center of the pic is a Mk II. Those wool uniforms would suck in Africa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The use of No.4s instead of No.1s would seem to be the bigger technical goof as far as the Irish weapons go. I'm not an Enfield specialist (I own a No 4 though), and I can check on the Irish military sites, but I'm not convinced by that. Isn't the protruding barrel an indicator of a No 4? http://66.media.tumblr.com/a40420d5773ca9e70211889fff99a603/tumblr_mvpr7ylV491rcoy9ro1_1280.jpg Osprey's "Modern African Wars: Congo 1960-2002" (Peter Abbot) specifies the British MkIII helmet, the 37 pattern webbing, and the No 4 rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe the No1 MkIII was the standard rifle for reserves until the FAL showed up in the 80s, but it does seem possible that the Congo troops got the latest batch of the things? In fact something is telling me that one in the center of the pic is a Mk II. Those wool uniforms would suck in Africa. Those are indeed No. 4s and look brand new. Ireland must have bought some from Britain after the war. Kind of surprising. No. 1 was definitely the standard, inherited from the British. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 1:09:45 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was a great movie. I was a youngster when the Congolese conflicts were happening, but I remember hearing Walter Cronkite make reference to them on the evening news, though I don't remember much of the specifics. I do distinctly remember hearing about the SGUN crash. Never realized he was shot down as the movie infers. I need to research the conflict more now that my interest is piqued. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 1:18:27 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the only thing to like in this show is that it shows guns. I down voted the POS film to 1 star on Netflix. I hate historically inaccurate films that sell themselves as historical. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 1:21:54 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indeed it was. Even given the leftist viewpoint. I was a youngster when the Congolese conflicts were happening, but I remember hearing Walter Cronkite make reference to them on the evening news, though I don't remember much of the specifics. I do distinctly remember hearing about the SGUN crash. Never realized he was shot down as the movie infers. I need to research the conflict more now that my interest is piqued. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That was a great movie. I was a youngster when the Congolese conflicts were happening, but I remember hearing Walter Cronkite make reference to them on the evening news, though I don't remember much of the specifics. I do distinctly remember hearing about the SGUN crash. Never realized he was shot down as the movie infers. I need to research the conflict more now that my interest is piqued. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 1:25:29 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I down voted the POS film to 1 star on Netflix. I hate historically inaccurate films that sell themselves as historical. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like the only thing to like in this show is that it shows guns. I down voted the POS film to 1 star on Netflix. I hate historically inaccurate films that sell themselves as historical. FWIW, the film was shown to Jadotville veterans at the Galway Fleadh a few months ago. They seem to have liked it. Historical accuracies notwithstanding, if it got the general idea across to the satisfaction of those present (who had been ostracized for four decades) is that not worth something? |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 1:30:23 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FWIW, the film was shown to Jadotville veterans at the Galway Fleadh a few months ago. They seem to have liked it. Historical accuracies notwithstanding, if it got the general idea across to the satisfaction of those present (who had been ostracized for four decades) is that not worth something? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looks like the only thing to like in this show is that it shows guns. I down voted the POS film to 1 star on Netflix. I hate historically inaccurate films that sell themselves as historical. FWIW, the film was shown to Jadotville veterans at the Galway Fleadh a few months ago. They seem to have liked it. Historical accuracies notwithstanding, if it got the general idea across to the satisfaction of those present (who had been ostracized for four decades) is that not worth something? Not on UN & Commie hating Arfcom it isn't |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 3:06:55 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The used the "peacekeeping" version which is neat in that it has a bayonet lug. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I just watched the movie and it really reinforced that I really wish I could get a Swedish K.  The used the "peacekeeping" version which is neat in that it has a bayonet lug.  Very informative posts as usual bigstick |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 3:22:15 AM EST
[#47]
Just finished watching it as well and enjoyed it.
This thread seems to be full of information regarding the conflict(s) in that region so I'll have to go back and read from page one. I failed to pay attention in World History class, although I would assume this wasn't covered, so I shall gain my knowledge in GD on Arfcom.
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Posted: 10/11/2016 3:38:47 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find it hard to root for the UN under any circumstance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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arfcom is not gonna rot for the UN.. is it ? Identity politics will force GD to root for the Irish Blue Helmets. Belgian colonists and Rhodesian mercenaries just don't fit the cozy feelgood narrative. I find it hard to root for the UN under any circumstance. Im with you. I may watch the movie and even enjoy it but you know its all secretly an attempt at gaining sympathy for UN military operations against racist/apartheid governments. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 5:02:31 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh, I got more of an anti UN feel to it, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just got done re-watching Dark of the Sun, god I want and FAL and some Belgian cammies Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That's a pretty rough review. What is your favorite Congo Crisis movie? Does it beat it on technical or historical accuracy? This movie sucks with regard to such things, but there really isn't much else out there. Dark of the Sun merges the first two Congo Crises together for its setting. There was a movie glorifying Lumumba that covers some parallel stuff, but it is garbage like the Guevara movie. I'm not sure that anything else exists on the subject besides a portion of the documentary Africa Addio (which has both real and staged footage from this conflict in it). None of this, of course, makes this movie a good one or technically and historically accurate. I was being sarcastic, I would only point out that any movie we watch is going to have technical and historical inaccuracies and even blatant lies to skew the viewers opinion. This movie isn't any worse than Blackhawk down or We Were Soldiers in that regard. Given the budget and the average person's total unfamiliarity with the historical subject, I would say it is AWESOME. I'm glad I got the link to Dark of the Sun, haven't watched that since I was a kid. Lol, that's about as subtle as sarcasm can get in written form. Blackhawk Down and We Were Soldiers were way better than this film in regards to such things, despite their errors, and didn't have a false Leftist narrative built-in. The historical and technical errors don't take much away from those films, especially the former one, but they were glaring and distracting in this film (but then I am familiar with the history and it is something that has been of special interest to me for years; that tends to make that effect worse). I'm not a fan of the only thing a person sees on an historical event to be so blatantly false; it wouldn't bother me as much if there were more films on the subject. Basically, this film is a work of fiction with some relation to real events, that's how bad it is. "Inspired by real events" would be a better preface to the film than "based on a true story." Meh, I got more of an anti UN feel to it, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just got done re-watching Dark of the Sun, god I want and FAL and some Belgian cammies It's a mixed message. Definitely not 100% pro-UN. Basically, the message is that what the UN and by extension Ireland and its troops were doing was good, immensely important, and honourable, and that the opposition were a bunch of evil men, greedy capitalists, murders, enemies of peace, etc. At the same time, the UN has a lot of bureaucrats that messed things up, executed a good and just mission poorly, and left the Irishmen hanging in the wind and refused to recognized their gallant stand afterwards. |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 5:07:01 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very informative posts as usual bigstick Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I just watched the movie and it really reinforced that I really wish I could get a Swedish K. The used the "peacekeeping" version which is neat in that it has a bayonet lug.
Very informative posts as usual bigstick I laughed as well when I read that that was the peacekeeping model. But if I could have a Swedish K, that's the one I'd want. I like bayonets. And just for the heck of it, here's a Swedish soldier in Katanga keeping the piece with pointy objects. 
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