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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:17:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 30 seconds in and I want to chain his arm to the desk. I know me too |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:17:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Here's how the adoption is going to go.
Soldiers get new rifle and more powerful ammo. Qual scores plummet then a test unit is sent oversees somewhere and gets in trouble when they run out of ammo. Milley retires and the whole thing is scrapped. Billions wasted. Again. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:18:00 PM EDT
[#3]
You would think that having a major war in Europe with non-stop video proof would remind the powers that be that the real killer is frag from indirect fire, and not rifle fire from 600m
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:22:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thinking a war with China wouldn't see massive ground combat is not realistic. Aside from Korea and Taiwan, we could quite realistically expect to see fighting in Japan, the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, India, or Pakistan. Given the way great power wars tend to spread, I wouldn't be surprised to see us facing off against Chinese forces and Chinese allies in Africa or even South America. The Marines' decision to do away with heavy forces is not only highly controversial, it was also predicated on the idea that they could call upon the Army when those heavy forces are needed. If anything, the Army should be scrapping its light forces to focus on its heavy forces so that it can supply capabilities that the other services and our allies do not have. "We" wouldn't be likely to see combat in those places, because we don't need to be there. We can close China off from the world and starve them out. The great unlearned lesson from WWII was that Japan succumbed not to brute force but to our submarine and aerial mining campaign. At the end of the war they have factories, but no raw materials. Apply that to China and it means that need the ability to control enough land to put their supplies under interdiction. That's it. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:24:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Years ago at one of the Close Combat Lethality Task Force meetings, I pointed out focusing on the ability to penetrate a suppose armor plate that no has seen unreal life was probably not the best approach because no one runs into a beaten zone with the knowledge their plates will save them because being shot in the face, arm, leg , throat, etc by a round unable to go through my SAPI sucks pretty bad This is my thinking (probably because you've said it before) and once they are fixed they can be hammered by mortars and other HE delivery systems. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:25:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I sure hope so. I know you already know this is kind of the intended endstate of the Marine transition to EABO/LOCE. The Navy and Air Force should probably get onboard. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That begs the question can the USN and USAF support JFE or the logistics required in the Indopacom? Well, I sure hope so. I know you already know this is kind of the intended endstate of the Marine transition to EABO/LOCE. The Navy and Air Force should probably get onboard. I would hope so, but I have heard resource sponsor from both of them saying FE is a thing of the past and the need for JFE enablers is money wasted that could go to the war winning programs that they are sponsoring |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:30:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure what you mean by that, I run a course almost monthly that involves this. There are 1,000,000 Soldiers in the Army. I don't think you are reaching all of them. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:35:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The red army was real. They included all the countries west of Russia to east Berlin. Including the Ukrainians who are doing so well against Russia. Ukraine is doing well in spite of it's former red army ties. Ukraine is also helped by the fact they are a western nation at heart, they want nothing to do with Russia. We've been training and slowly equipping them since 2014, and since Russia started up again, we've gone from "slowly" to "fastly" |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:42:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are 1,000,000 Soldiers in the Army. I don't think you are reaching all of them. There's also literally nothing stopping them from doing it, just like us and the majority of circles we work in. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:50:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "We" wouldn't be likely to see combat in those places, because we don't need to be there. We can close China off from the world and starve them out. The great unlearned lesson from WWII was that Japan succumbed not to brute force but to our submarine and aerial mining campaign. At the end of the war they have factories, but no raw materials. Apply that to China and it means that need the ability to control enough land to put their supplies under interdiction. That's it. I don't know about that. The Japanese were totally fanatical, and had zero issue with doing mass banzai charges against American lines, using women and children as shields, throwing themselves off of cliffs or holding grenades to their heads to avoid capture, and in some cases holding out for years after the war ended. While our subs and mines absolutely shredded Japanese shipping and helped grind down Japan's war effort, it was absolutely fat man and little boy that made it clear there'd be only one way for Japan to survive. I do agree with you on China though. This is why they put so much effort into those man made islands, the South China Sea, etc |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:54:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's how the adoption is going to go. Soldiers get new rifle and more powerful ammo. Qual scores plummet then a test unit is sent oversees somewhere and gets in trouble when they run out of ammo. Milley retires and the whole thing is scrapped. Billions wasted. Again. Summer 2024 is it for Milley far as I know. Can Biden keep him past 2024? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:54:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/5f/bf/675fbf80eabf11721c93f345a156b40f.jpg It should have been Glock!!!!! Yes, this totally. I have no idea why the military didn't adopt a combat proven platform over the p320 auto shooter. That being said, I would like to see how this SFAR shakes out. Weighs about the same as the M4, and my understanding is that the round doesn't suffer as much from being fired from a shorter barrel. At least I heard that from people in the serious part of the forum that have a lot more experience than I do. But there's the right way, the wrong way, and, the military way. It is what it is. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:59:41 PM EDT
[#13]
This weapons platform fails the KISS test.
Not only that, but what are the logistics at this point? can we stockpile enough firearms, ammo, and parts in time for the next major conflict? Can we also deploy this system before then? I kind of doubt it. Will our soldiers have enough time inbetween diversity trainings to properly train with this new system, especially given the expense of the ammo? Our current crop of recruits do not have the rifle experience before the Army that soldiers did in the past. How many 5.56 and 7.62 rounds do we have stockpiled? Firearms and parts are made right here in the US by the millions with everyone and their dog having tooling. Heck, arfcom alone could probably supply enough firearms for the US army. We have major advantages in that area with our current platforms. It's going to be tough to transition and it should've been done a decade ago. Maybe those issues are accounted for but I have little faith anymore in our government in any area. I'm no expert, but the fact that we've stuck with 5.56 and 7.62 through multiple attempts to replace them and the AR platform says a lot. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:59:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah so the armchair flannel dude with the hat knows more about how to arm our army than the army... /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up_zps5c0357b9_GIF-103.gif I know right! Miley: Diversity Key to Joint Force Readiness.  
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:02:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's how the adoption is going to go. Soldiers get new rifle and more powerful ammo. Qual scores plummet then a test unit is sent oversees somewhere and gets in trouble when they run out of ammo. Milley retires and the whole thing is scrapped. Billions wasted. Again. The program is only set to spend 160 million in the next couple years and the is rifles, machine guns, optics and ammo. Small arms aren’t as expensive as you make them out to be. The optic and 250 are the big win and people keep focusing on the carbine. My guess how this plays out is that the M5 gets bought and field trialed, we find out that the capability isn’t needed in a carbine outside DMR and we buy 5.56 MCX with the spear upgrades, an M6. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:03:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This weapons platform fails the KISS test. Not only that, but what are the logistics at this point? can we stockpile enough firearms, ammo, and parts in time for the next major conflict? Can we also deploy this system before then? I kind of doubt it. Will our soldiers have enough time inbetween diversity trainings to properly train with this new system, especially given the expense of the ammo? Our current crop of recruits do not have the rifle experience before the Army that soldiers did in the past. How many 5.56 and 7.62 rounds do we have stockpiled? Firearms and parts are made right here in the US by the millions with everyone and their dog having tooling. Heck, arfcom alone could probably supply enough firearms for the US army. We have major advantages in that area with our current platforms. It's going to be tough to transition and it should've been done a decade ago. Maybe those issues are accounted for but I have little faith anymore in our government in any area. I'm no expert, but the fact that we've stuck with 5.56 and 7.62 through multiple attempts to replace them and the AR platform says a lot. The 7.62 needs to be put to pasture. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:08:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My guess how this plays out is that the M5 gets bought and field trialed, we find out that the capability isn’t needed in a carbine outside DMR and we buy 5.56 MCX with the spear upgrades, an M6. Do we think this would really happen?............(over the M4 they currently have).....serious question? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:09:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The program is only set to spend 160 million in the next couple years and the is rifles, machine guns, optics and ammo. Small arms aren’t as expensive as you make them out to be. The optic and 250 are the big win and people keep focusing on the carbine. My guess how this plays out is that the M5 gets bought and field trialed, we find out that the capability isn’t needed in a carbine outside DMR and we buy 5.56 MCX with the spear upgrades, an M6. Unless sig manages to figure out energy weapons, they aren't going to replace the M4. The M4 is too close to perfect to justify it's replacement until the next evolution in firearms technology comes along. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:19:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Is a piston system (and whatever else the Sig is) that much better they would even consider changing form the M4 to a SIG for the exact same caliber (5.56) and the same purpose........?
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:25:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is a piston system (and whatever else the Sig is) that much better they would even consider changing form the M4 to a SIG for the exact same caliber (5.56) and the same purpose........? Didn't pan out for the SCAR or XM8. And the tests they ran back then were tailor made to make the M4 look bad. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:26:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's also literally nothing stopping them from doing it, just like us and the majority of circles we work in. The Army is literally stopping it from happening. Your comment can be charitably translated as "the GPF should unfuck itself" and on that point we agree. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:34:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know about that. The Japanese were totally fanatical, and had zero issue with doing mass banzai charges against American lines, using women and children as shields, throwing themselves off of cliffs or holding grenades to their heads to avoid capture, and in some cases holding out for years after the war ended. While our subs and mines absolutely shredded Japanese shipping and helped grind down Japan's war effort, it was absolutely fat man and little boy that made it clear there'd be only one way for Japan to survive. I do agree with you on China though. This is why they put so much effort into those man made islands, the South China Sea, etc Firebombing would have done the same. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:38:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless sig manages to figure out energy weapons, they aren't going to replace the M4. The M4 is too close to perfect to justify it's replacement until the next evolution in firearms technology comes along. Meh. The M4 is a pretty good rifle you are right, but for a future that requires cans, we are going to be revamping the uppers at the very least with a barrel/gas system optimized for cans and FF rail. It’s not that more expensive to go with a rifle that will have some commonality with the M5. The other consideration is can the 5.56 cartridge use the bi metal construction and go to a higher pressure increasing it’s performance against plates and barriers? If so can the M4 handle it? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:39:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is a piston system (and whatever else the Sig is) that much better they would even consider changing form the M4 to a SIG for the exact same caliber (5.56) and the same purpose........? SOCOM seems to like the MCX line. For a short barrel rifle designed to wear a can all the time, I would probably prefer a piston. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:41:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Firebombing would have done the same. I don't buy that. Firebombing took hundreds of planes. It was conventional, normal. With nukes, it took one plane. One. It was a level of destructive force that no other nation could match. We took a step from needing hundreds of aircraft to level a city to one. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:44:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't buy that. Firebombing took hundreds of planes. It was conventional, normal. With nukes, it took one plane. One. It was a level of destructive force that no other nation could match. We took a step from needing hundreds of aircraft to level a city to one. I don't know how big that distinction was at the time because we had the resources to bomb them with impunity. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:48:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would hope so, but I have heard resource sponsor from both of them saying FE is a thing of the past and the need for JFE enablers is money wasted that could go to the war winning programs that they are sponsoring Meanwhile, the Army is divesting itself of intra-theater logistics lift capabilities while simultaneously focusing on MCO in Indo-Pacom.  I don't know who's going to be moving logistics about the theater, but I know who isn't. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:53:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. The M4 is a pretty good rifle you are right, but for a future that requires cans, we are going to be revamping the uppers at the very least with a barrel/gas system optimized for cans and FF rail. It’s not that more expensive to go with a rifle that will have some commonality with the M5. The other consideration is can the 5.56 cartridge use the bi metal construction and go to a higher pressure increasing it’s performance against plates and barriers? If so can the M4 handle it? The AR's gas system is fine for suppression. Like 90% of blow back comes through the bore. Commonality with the XM5 is not a selling point, because the concept of the XM5 is not based in reality. It won't take too long for someone to create some plate that can stop 6.8x51, what then? Bump it up to 90k psi? Add an extra lb or 2 of metal to handle that stress? I think we're at the point the rifle is little more than a PDW. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:56:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile, the Army is divesting itself of intra-theater logistics lift capabilities while simultaneously focusing on MCO in Indo-Pacom. I don't know who's going to be moving logistics about the theater, but I know who isn't. Look up the concept of "regenerative logistics." Foraging is gonna be a thing again. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 4:58:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know how big that distinction was at the time because we had the resources to bomb them with impunity. Japan was still able to shoot down and damage B29's, and were still launching kamikaze strikes, the last one happened hours after japan surrendered. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:02:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Japan was still able to shoot down and damage B29's, and were still launching kamikaze strikes, the last one happened hours after japan surrendered. We could still kill 100,000 people a night. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:06:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The AR's gas system is fine for suppression. Like 90% of blow back comes through the bore. Commonality with the XM5 is not a selling point, because the concept of the XM5 is not based in reality. It won't take too long for someone to create some plate that can stop 6.8x51, what then? Bump it up to 90k psi? Add an extra lb or 2 of metal to handle that stress? I think we're at the point the rifle is little more than a PDW. Except your missing that as a machine gun round the 6.8 blows the doors off 7.62. I’m in a world where 7.62 is no longer in the system. So a large platform rifle will be procured in the complementary round. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:11:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We could still kill 100,000 people a night. ... Yes. It took hundreds of planes, something like 280 iirc. Between Hiroshima and Nagasaki we got between 130,000 to 230,000. With 2 planes. You don't seem to comprehend how big of a jump that is. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:17:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... Yes. It took hundreds of planes, something like 280 iirc. Between Hiroshima and Nagasaki we got between 130,000 to 230,000. With 2 planes. You don't seem to comprehend how big of a jump that is. It doesn't matter, but if it did consider that a single atomic bomb cost more than using 280 planes to do the same thing. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:19:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except your missing that as a machine gun round the 6.8 blows the doors off 7.62. I’m in a world where 7.62 is no longer in the system. So a large platform rifle will be procured in the complementary round. Maybe as a replacement for the M110A1, but you're smoking crack if you think for one second it'll replace the M4. Unless something has changed, the 250 and XM5's performance against the M249, M240, and M4a1 has not been revealed to the public. I'd hold off on making any claims of superiority till we know more. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:25:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't matter, but if it did consider that a single atomic bomb cost more than using 280 planes to do the same thing. This is going off track, but that was our problem. Japan knew that we nuked them, and what one day took us 300 planes to do, now took about 1.5 planes to do. But yes I'm sure all Hirohito slept soundly at night knowing how much we spent on nukes. 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:28:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe as a replacement for the M110A1, but you're smoking crack if you think for one second it'll replace the M4. Unless something has changed, the 250 and XM5's performance against the M249, M240, and M4a1 has not been revealed to the public. I'd hold off on making any claims of superiority till we know more. The 240 looks like it can be converted to 6.8 and the 249s are on their last lives. The 250 is lighter by a good amount than either of those guns and should run much better than the saw. The carbine will probably only be bought in limited numbers. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:34:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 240 looks like it can be converted to 6.8 and the 249s are on their last lives. The 250 is lighter by a good amount than either of those guns and should run much better than the saw. The carbine will probably only be bought in limited numbers. I can't talk much about the 250 since i haven't followed it too closely, but i think 240/250's lifespan with the hot ammo will be make or break for the success of the cartridge. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:39:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 240 looks like it can be converted to 6.8 and the 249s are on their last lives. The 250 is lighter by a good amount than either of those guns and should run much better than the saw. The carbine will probably only be bought in limited numbers. I like the look of the True Velocity cartridge for that, and the 240 can be lightened to 20 pounds as well. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:40:25 PM EDT
[#40]
I’d like to know if it’s accurate enough for snipers. Or could be.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:53:14 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’d like to know if it’s accurate enough for snipers. Or could be. Should be an absolute flat shooter. the projectile should be okay since its scaled up 855A1 |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:57:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 240 looks like it can be converted to 6.8 and the 249s are on their last lives. The 250 is lighter by a good amount than either of those guns and should run much better than the saw. The carbine will probably only be bought in limited numbers. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:01:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why wouldn't it be convertible? Sweden even fielded FN MAG 58s in 6.5 55 for a while. Does 6.5x55 run at 80,000 PSI? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:13:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does 6.5x55 run at 80,000 PSI? The way the Mag 58 locks up, I would think it shouldn't negatively effect the gun once they redo the gas regulator |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:20:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except your missing that as a machine gun round the 6.8 blows the doors off 7.62. I’m in a world where 7.62 is no longer in the system. So a large platform rifle will be procured in the complementary round. A better mousetrap has already been invented:  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:21:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army is literally stopping it from happening. Your comment can be charitably translated as "the GPF should unfuck itself" and on that point we agree. Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army is literally stopping it from happening. Your comment can be charitably translated as "the GPF should unfuck itself" and on that point we agree. The Army is stopping company and platoon level training that can literally be conducted inside the COF with a flick of a lightswitch? Quoted: I would hope so, but I have heard resource sponsor from both of them saying FE is a thing of the past and the need for JFE enablers is money wasted that could go to the war winning programs that they are sponsoring Every entity tailors the next fight to favor their wants and needs. What matters is what the NDAA and OPLANs have to say about it. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:37:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army is stopping company and platoon level training that can literally be conducted inside the COF with a flick of a lightswitch? I actually looked up the task for operating NODs. Basically, you put it on, adjust the focus, and stow it and you are Trained, according to the Army. Your argument is that units should deviate from standardized Army training. And you're not wrong. But that isn't how the Army works. Maybe it's a Fort Hood thing? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:47:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I actually looked up the task for operating NODs. Basically, you put it on, adjust the focus, and stow it and you are Trained, according to the Army. Your argument is that units should deviate from standardized Army training. And you're not wrong. But that isn't how the Army works. Maybe it's a Fort Hood thing? What's a Fort Hood thing? You've never been to a course that's not in ATRRS? You do realize it's not violating regulation in any way, shape, or form to do so right? You literally do a night infil range in OSUT for nods familiarization. The ability to maneuver with nods is a subtask that is an implied expectation. Units have tactical handheld radios that don't have tasks associated with them, yet they integrate them into training and operations all the time. Units have sent people to language and culture courses all the time. Unit SDMs run hip pocket training all the time on mounting nods to your weapon. In this case you are saying it is impossible to train with MTOE equipment outside of what's listed on CATS, and you would be wrong. You are wrapped around "validation", you can do a lot using the term "familiarization". I run two week functional courses completely outside of ICTL and MET tasks all the time, endorsed by FORSCOM. Certain things I'd rather the Army didn't completely micromanage. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:49:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army is stopping company and platoon level training that can literally be conducted inside the COF with a flick of a lightswitch? Every entity tailors the next fight to favor their wants and needs. What matters is what the NDAA and OPLANs have to say about it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Army is literally stopping it from happening. Your comment can be charitably translated as "the GPF should unfuck itself" and on that point we agree. The Army is stopping company and platoon level training that can literally be conducted inside the COF with a flick of a lightswitch? Quoted: I would hope so, but I have heard resource sponsor from both of them saying FE is a thing of the past and the need for JFE enablers is money wasted that could go to the war winning programs that they are sponsoring Every entity tailors the next fight to favor their wants and needs. What matters is what the NDAA and OPLANs have to say about it. If only there was an overachiever organization who had a presidential appointed official who could adjudicate the services differences on strategic guidance. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:52:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If only there was an overachiever organization who had a presidential appointed official who could adjudicate the services differences on strategic guidance. I'm assuming you are unhappy with the performance of said organization so far. |
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