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Don't we do this at least once every couple months?

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OP, a thread of this subject is always good for several pages of replies on this board.  

It's like putting a worm on a hook and lowering it into the lake in front of a school of hungry bluegills.   You are sure to get a lot of bites.  

My favorite rifle is an AK-74.  I love it.  Low recoil, easy to maneuver, and very high capacity.

Also effective for PD using the Hornady 60-grain rounds with the V-MAX bullet.

BUT.....would I use it for home defense?  

Absolutely not.  

Instead I force myself to use a 1911 pistol and a Remington Tactical 870 12-guage shotgun.  

Why?  Because in my little Appalachian town almost every home has one or two 12-guage shotguns.  

So, it is almost taken for granted that a homeowner would shoot an intruder with a 12-guage shotgun here.  

NO way I would use my favorite AK-74 for home defense and then have the local DA and news media thinking about charging me with a crime of murder when I was forced to defend myself in my own home.  

So, I hate shotguns but that does not mean that I cannot use one proficiently.

So I go with Federal Police Tactical 00 buckshot 12-guage shells and force myself to shoot that sucker enough to stay proficient.

Thus I am using a "politically correct" firearm for home defense here in Appalachia.  

A surprising number of local Appalachian people consider the AK-74 to be a "commie gun" and you are being a "disloyal" American if you own one.  

Seriously, I have had them tell me that - in a nice way thankfully.  

They also can't understand how an old retired Vietnam vet and career military guy like me would like a "commie gun."

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Do you have bears in your AO?

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A better comparison would be a semi-auto shotgun with an extended tube magazine and a red dot sight vs. an AR. Obviously a pump action shotgun with a standard tube and bead sights is going to come up short.

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http://i.imgur.com/3R4Sqlw.jpg

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Fail you say? seemed to work pretty well for the VC in a denser environment...
snerp

No it didn't, we killed the SHIT out of them.

Then when they did manage to kill our guys, they took the M-16's and used them because they were better.

Your supporting evidence for your claim falls flat on it's face like a VC hit by M193.


So in response to my original claim that at 50-75 yards the AK is not effective and is a complete fail?
Go to you tube and pull up the video where the AR and the AK face off against a CMU block wall and get back to me.
Go to you tube and pull up the piece where the AK was far more effective in a denser jungle environment than the M16 and get back to me.
Evidently I need to toss out everything else I've got and put my Goddamn AR on an alter to the great God of War.

And for the record tell that to the guys whose  names are on that black marble wall in DC that the AK was not an effective killing tool.
The AK has at least  killed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. I had no idea the M193 was such a devastating round
compared to everything else on the planet. I guess based upon you assumption noting else is capable of killing anyone.
I can't imagine what a poor  GI in WW2 or Korea did having a Garand. Lets all bow down to the all mighty ,223 and it's far superior ballistics.
Yeah all AK's belong in the trash can I get it. God forbid anyone use one for self defense or risk getting chastised around here.
The Ar15:
Is it a better platform? yes
Is it more Accurate? Yes
The AK:
Is it minute of home invader perp?  Your damn right it is, and weather you live or die you would not want to be on the receiving end of it's terminal ballistics.

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Fail you say? seemed to work pretty well for the VC in a denser environment...

snerp



No it didn't, we killed the SHIT out of them.



Then when they did manage to kill our guys, they took the M-16's and used them because they were better.



Your supporting evidence for your claim falls flat on it's face like a VC hit by M193.





So in response to my original claim that at 50-75 yards the AK is not effective and is a complete fail?

Go to you tube and pull up the video where the AR and the AK face off against a CMU block wall and get back to me.

Go to you tube and pull up the piece where the AK was far more effective in a denser jungle environment than the M16 and get back to me.

Evidently I need to toss out everything else I've got and put my Goddamn AR on an alter to the great God of War.



And for the record tell that to the guys whose  names are on that black marble wall in DC that the AK was not an effective killing tool.

The AK has at least  killed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. I had no idea the M193 was such a devastating round

compared to everything else on the planet. I guess based upon you assumption noting else is capable of killing anyone.

I can't imagine what a poor  GI in WW2 or Korea did having a Garand. Lets all bow down to the all mighty ,223 and it's far superior ballistics.

Yeah all AK's belong in the trash can I get it. God forbid anyone use one for self defense or risk getting chastised around here.

The Ar15:

Is it a better platform? yes

Is it more Accurate? Yes

The AK:

Is it minute of home invader perp?  Your damn right it is, and weather you live or die you would not want to be on the receiving end of it's terminal ballistics.

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I own several ARs, in multiple calibers and piston/DI both, AKs and derivatives (curiously, all of my proper AKs are either pistols or SBRs), FS2000, PS90, bolt guns, Dragunovs, 870, Saiga 12, VEPR 12, Franchi o/u, Benelli M2, loads of pistols...and the first gun I'd want to defend my life or my family would be one of the ARs.
 

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I dont give a rancid shit what anyone says, if the doors in my house came crashing down right now with some methheads ready to burst in and try there "lets take him by surprise shit', I AM GOING FOR MY MOSSY loaded with federal double odd, somebody else is going to clean up this fuckin mess, it's gonna be bad.

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Before I buckle down on school shit...


The fun thing about these threads is that people don't take the time to reconcile is that 5.56 gets deadlier and more incapacitating at a faster rate as range decreases due to yaw and fragmentation.

As range decreases with a shotgun, so does the shot pattern.  At close ranges like HD, the pattern can be very small to almost unopened.  This means that the accuracy margin that they enjoy is diminished and that a near miss could be no different than with a rifle. From a terminal perspective, close up shot and buckshot acts like a solid mass, further out they are individual objects, not "a wall of lead".  Just a bunch of low power pistol rounds that as range increases, are more likely to miss vital areas. Of course, one could load slugs to avoid that, since at close range everything acts like one mass so you're not losing anything, and at farther range it's more accurate...


But then all that's been created is a slow to shoot, heavy low capacity rifle.



Anyone that can competently defend their home with a shotgun, would be more capable with a rifle.

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I've noticed alot being debated about the suitability of the shotgun vs the rifle for defense . Both sides come out fairly strongly in favor of their choice, so here's a few random thoughts from my mind. I figure there's no better time to do this since the kids in bed, the wife is watching orange is the new black, I'm off tomorrow and just cracked the first of my home made ciders I bottles 3 weeks ago;

One, (these are my opinions mind you) Despite what some say the pump shotgun is NOT obsolete for defensive or even offensive work in the right circumstances. Just don't try to use it outside of its limitations.
For the average Joe,  a good pump twelve in winchester/rem/mossy flavors if set up right will definitely defend hearth and home against unwanted intruders and do it effectively with the right ammunition. _To those that advocate useing birdshot--------------- Can it kill? Sure. I'm not shooting on CAN. If I'm to engage I'm shooting on and with the more than reasonable chance that it WILL stop the threat on the first round, making my next one or two "insurance shots" superfluous. Racking the shotgun to scare a threat-- That MAY have worked, it COULD work, that's not a safe bet nor one I'm willing to practice or take when my life and more importantly my girls lives are at stake. You don't know who they are in the house, what they want or what they are on. The first indication to the intruder that I am there with a shotgun in my home is going to be a muzzle blast.
That being said, different fire-arms are much like different tools in a tool box. If you don't use the right tool for the right application you are going to get either sub standard or disastrous results.
Now, I have ARs, etc etc. I love them, but I don't have it for primary use inside the confines of the house walls. Many mention about ease of use of an Ar vs Shotgun. That can be true, however if you are well versed and trained on your tool, even though the AR is more "user friendly" in some ways, to guys that train and are used to the shotgun it becomes a moot point inside your own home. ( I have used the MP-5, M4, M16 and Moss/Rem shotguns in CQB situations {Navy} and I can say that I prefer the shotgun and always carried it when given the choice) Now I doubt I will ever have multiple determined, trained attackers assault my property/home. If they do then the shotgun is only the gun I use to get to the rifle, after the threats indoors are silenced. Yes for that siege scenario the shotgun is less than ideal, but you are more than under-armed if that's all you have at hand as well.
In my home, if there is a breach, everyone in the home is behind me and I am between them and the threat. Over penetration be damned, I use 00 or 000 buck. Max sight line in my house is 20 feet. A charge or two of 00 in your sternum at that range is going to do the job.

Lets get to  defeating body armor, I doubt anyone in my area breaking in will have a decent set or one at all on so I am not all overly concerned about that aspect of the issue.
Survival; If I only had one gun to make ends meet out to the cabin, I can shoot slugs out to 100 yards+ accurately, use buckshot or bird shot, all carried on my person to deal with any game or threat I come across, all from one weapon system.

Again, yes it takes more training to utilize it's full potential compared to an AR, but I have the experience and I am confident in its use.
I'm not saying I don't like the AR. I'm not saying it's less effective then the shotgun.I am not saying the shotgun is better than the AR either. I am simply stating that if a person or persons were to break into my home, they would not laugh and say "He only had a shotgun"
Nothing says dead like multiple .33-.36 caliber holes through your vitals.

On to legal issues (I hate this idiocy but it is a reality for some of us)
The shotgun is more "acceptable". It shouldn't make a difference legally and yes I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 as well but for advocacy of the devil lets get into this.
If you mag dump into a person from an "assault" rifle you look different to the idiots running things and making decisions that affect your life after the incident than if you used the old trusty pump.
On the same sort of note the wife always said I'd get in trouble if I had to defend us because I would look too "professional". She thinks I'd likely double tap and anchor shoot. That'd look bad too..........

So, in closing I do not think my shotgun is obsolete. Neither do the military that use them either, and they aren't just used for breaching doors. However, you are not using it in a military application, you are defending your family, inside your home. That shotgun will work just fine, if you know how to use it. You can screw up with an AR too.

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So what you are saying is that at nearly point-blank range 00 12 gauge wouldn't kill a kitten...