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9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Buckshot is pretty good. The weapons that shoot it aren't nearly as good as modern autoloading rifles. one 00 shell is like a 9rd burst from an MP5 lol Did you learn that from CoD? 9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie You must have shot a lot of people with it then? |
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If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge. Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities. They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image. Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders. If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians. It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example. So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk. Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose. Target around .340-.345 bore diameter. Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm. Use a relatively long and straight-walled case. Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better. Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun. With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel... try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor. Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well. Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well. You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though. You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one. Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to. The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars. Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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"We don't want necessarily the arms that American police have. We need weapons that can respond," said Philippe Capon of French police union UNSA. "We need to arm our cops like Americans, but don't want to because that's what the Americans do." Precisely. The eurowennies think we are all cowboys. If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge. Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities. They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image. Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders. If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians. It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example. So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk. Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose. Target around .340-.345 bore diameter. Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm. Use a relatively long and straight-walled case. Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better. Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun. With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel... try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor. Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well. Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well. You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though. You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one. Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to. The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars. Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it. 7.92mm VBR? |
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You must have shot a lot of people with it then? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Buckshot is pretty good. The weapons that shoot it aren't nearly as good as modern autoloading rifles. one 00 shell is like a 9rd burst from an MP5 lol Did you learn that from CoD? 9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie You must have shot a lot of people with it then? So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx |
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Am I the only one who read that piece and thought of the line from Demolition man " We're police officers! We're not trained to handle this kind of violence!" ? Poor bastards. Hope they get armed and trained up.
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Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. |
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Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. Hay! They are also good for breaching doors! True Multitaskers. Unlike those single purpose SMGs and Carbines. Why do people who like shotgun talk like there has never been a failure to stop with a 12GA? |
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Quoted: Am I the only one who read that piece and thought of the line from Demolition man " We're police officers! We're not trained to handle this kind of violence!" ? Poor bastards. Hope they get armed and trained up. View Quote |
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Quoted: Wow, that's crazy. We have around 20,000 cops, all armed, serving a population of less than 10 million. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would say they euro police need a change of mindset. The need to look at serious officer survival training. Side arms and armor for sure with long guns available on the street not at the station. The UK (read England & Wales in policing terms) is reportedly being cut back to a total @80 000 officers, @4900 of which are routinely armed when on duty ( so @1600 or less at any given time ), to serve a population of @ 56 million. Very few UK AFO's receive any meaningful training that would help them in a running street battle or mall shooting type scenario. Don't even get me started on weapons training.... Wow, that's crazy. We have around 20,000 cops, all armed, serving a population of less than 10 million. |
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I doubt that you've ever shot anything other than paper with that shotgun of yours, considering the dumbfuckery you're posting. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx I doubt that you've ever shot anything other than paper with that shotgun of yours, considering the dumbfuckery you're posting. I doubt YOU have shot anything other than paper. |
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I doubt YOU have shot anything other than paper. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx I doubt that you've ever shot anything other than paper with that shotgun of yours, considering the dumbfuckery you're posting. I doubt YOU have shot anything other than paper. Sure thing kid. |
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If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge. Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities. They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image. Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders. If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians. It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example. So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk. Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose. Target around .340-.345 bore diameter. Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm. Use a relatively long and straight-walled case. Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better. Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun. With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel... try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor. Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well. Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well. You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though. You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one. Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to. The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars. Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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"We don't want necessarily the arms that American police have. We need weapons that can respond," said Philippe Capon of French police union UNSA. "We need to arm our cops like Americans, but don't want to because that's what the Americans do." Precisely. The eurowennies think we are all cowboys. If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge. Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities. They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image. Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders. If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians. It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example. So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk. Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose. Target around .340-.345 bore diameter. Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm. Use a relatively long and straight-walled case. Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better. Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun. With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel... try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor. Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well. Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well. You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though. You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one. Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to. The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars. Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it. They did over a 100 years ago. They call it 9mm Parabellum |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol. Knew this was coming. As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS |
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While I'm generally a fan of the shotgun in LE, I don't see the utility of issuing them to European cops, who appear to be more comfortable toting around an SMG, and is probably a more appropriate weapon for their purposes. Any shoulder-fired weapon, including a shotgun, is going to be leaps and bounds better than a pistol, but I'll take a SMG over an 870 every day and twice on Sunday, and a rifle caliber carbine over that if I can. I'm simply not comfortable taking a shot much past 25-30 yards with buckshot, and I'm not big on slugs. At my previous gig, we had the option of checking out an 870 or an M4 carbine for the shift, guess which racks stayed full in the armory? The SMG is going to give a higher rate of controllable fire, and better capacity. Like I said, I still love my shotgun and I won't give it up, but I'm not going to pretend that there aren't firearms better suited for a given task out there.
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Not many are. It's one of the dilemmas of arming everyone. That, and if the attacks are spontaneous/ambush anyway, it doesn't really matter what the initial victims are carrying. For first responders it could be crucial.. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lol. Knew this was coming. As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS Hire more paras and less college kids. Its working for us Rob |
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SMGs allow you to use the same ammo and the same shooting range (a big issue for many departments as they often lack rifle ranges) as for pistols. It's also a controllable weapon, and with the right ammo it easily punches through soft armour. View Quote The range I kind of understand. I own an indoor shooting range and we have 5 rifle lanes, it isn't hard to do just a bit more expensive. The traps require heavier steel and larger drums. I do know that getting government agencies to spend money on needed equipment is like pulling teeth here, so I suspect it is the same on your side of the pond. Ammo compatibility is only a money saving measure IMO. Grabbing rifle ammo when you grab your rifle isn't hard or you can carry a couple magazines like I do on your person. Most sub guns don't use the same magazines as their pistol counterparts so you would still have to do the same with the sub gun right? I know our guys that use UMP 40s have to grab mags just like our guys with M-16s or AR-15s. I'm not saying sub guns are useless. You are right about them being very controllable. They just would never be my first choice as a defensive weapon, and I do have experience with sub guns. I own a 9mm Uzi, a 9mm MP5, a 7.62x25 PPSH, and have some time behind a UMP 40 that my department owns, all of them full auto. I also have two M-16s and two AK-47s that are full auto as well as access to M-16s owned by my department. They are harder to control, for sure, but not exceptionally so and they provide much better performance in tissue. They also easily penetrate soft armor while using regular expanding or fragmenting defensive ammo rather than non-expanding specialty ammo like handgun calibers require. While pistol ammo can be made to penetrate soft armor, it does so at the expense of terminal performance which is already lacking in pistol caliber cartridges even with quality expanding ammo. Having a fair amount of experience with sub guns and rifle caliber full autos, I would definitely pick the rifle caliber every time. I just don't understand why people would choose the pistol caliber if they have the option. |
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The European ruling class can't keep the Proles in their place if they are allowed arms.......French Revolution 2.0 would be bad, mumkay?
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Inferior range, low rate of fire, low capacity, and greater bulk. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Maybe he just means that he doesn't want French cops saddled with the retarded pump shotgun that has been ubiquitous to US law enforcement for so long, and instead wants modern autoloading rifles. So they use MP5s instead I've never heard anyone call them barbaric. They are ridiculously impractical though, which is why they're not usually issued. Do you even shotgun bro? A 12 gauge shotgun is the one of the most versatile weapons you can own. Inferior range, low rate of fire, low capacity, and greater bulk. All true but I can put 60 pellets of #1 buckshot (.25" IIRC) center mass on a silhouette target in 1.9 seconds at 15 yards with my 11-87P and Federal #1 Flite Control buckshot. That is pretty good and is only half the ammo in the weapon. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol. Knew this was coming. As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS |
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9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Nothing puts bad guys down at close range as well as buckshot. Buckshot is pretty good. The weapons that shoot it aren't nearly as good as modern autoloading rifles. one 00 shell is like a 9rd burst from an MP5 lol Did you learn that from CoD? 9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie Then you should know better. The shotgun shell has impressive terminal ballistics. The shotgun has very severe drawbacks as a fighting tool. The SMG is better. The autoloading rifle is way, way better. |
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Do you even shotgun bro? A 12 gauge shotgun is the one of the most versatile weapons you can own. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Maybe he just means that he doesn't want French cops saddled with the retarded pump shotgun that has been ubiquitous to US law enforcement for so long, and instead wants modern autoloading rifles. So they use MP5s instead I've never heard anyone call them barbaric. They are ridiculously impractical though, which is why they're not usually issued. Do you even shotgun bro? A 12 gauge shotgun is the one of the most versatile weapons you can own. Incorrect. Shotguns are very versatile firearms. That is because the can be used to hunt many different types of game, for defense, and for recreational sports. As weapons they are limited in their usefulness for many different reasons. |
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While I'm generally a fan of the shotgun in LE, I don't see the utility of issuing them to European cops, who appear to be more comfortable toting around an SMG, and is probably a more appropriate weapon for their purposes. Any shoulder-fired weapon, including a shotgun, is going to be leaps and bounds better than a pistol, but I'll take a SMG over an 870 every day and twice on Sunday, and a rifle caliber carbine over that if I can. I'm simply not comfortable taking a shot much past 25-30 yards with buckshot, and I'm not big on slugs. At my previous gig, we had the option of checking out an 870 or an M4 carbine for the shift, guess which racks stayed full in the armory? The SMG is going to give a higher rate of controllable fire, and better capacity. Like I said, I still love my shotgun and I won't give it up, but I'm not going to pretend that there aren't firearms better suited for a given task out there. View Quote Shotguns can't be safely used past about 15 yards with 00buck in an urban environment when the officer is held accountable for every pellet (and the 5 year old two blocks over he just shot). Even with Flite Control you get the occasional stray pellet that flies off the black on a B-27 target from 15 yards when the other 45 pellets are COM. Not a thing you can do, a flaw in the weapon design, but it will still be your ass GD is second guessing and talking shit about. The AR patrol rifle/carbine is far superior to the shotgun for general use and is capable of being used effectively at far greater ranges. Is the reason the police are so poorly equipped/trained the fact that European countries have no problems using the military to keep order and security within their borders? Is the reason the terrorist attacks have so far been in Europe the fact that US police are comparatively better equipped and trained to deal with active shooter threats? Stay Safe over there, Rob |
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The British Bobby did not need a gun back in the day. He would blow his whistle and armed citizens would rush to his aid "The Hue and Cry" as it was known. Read Sherlock Holmes and the author mentions Dr. Watson slipping a revolver into his pocket as he left the apartment, this was not some writers fantasy, it was very common at the time. Of course once the people are disarmed... View Quote Lets also not forget that they regularly carried a truncheon and were not at all shy about using it. Even now. That is simply no longer enough to deal with the new threats. |
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Why dont the Euro countries look to their center and just copy Switzerland.
NOBODY fucks with the Swiss cops, or with the people either. Crime rate is really low, and the only shitstirrers are non-swiss. Everybody knows how to handle a gun, and the general pop. are all heavily armed, with full-auto. And just walking around in Switzerland, it just 'feels' safe. Nobody is gonna go all snackbar there, either. Switzerland didn't get invaded in two world wars for a reason. Unless somebody opens a can of sunshine, they will stay safe thru the next mess, too. IMHO YMMV |
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Quoted: Not many are. It's one of the dilemmas of arming everyone. That, and if the attacks are spontaneous/ambush anyway, it doesn't really matter what the initial victims are carrying. For first responders it could be crucial.. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol. Knew this was coming. As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS |
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How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. That's because they are retarded. Long arms...GPMG > assault rifle> SMG >>>>>> shotgun. For most police use, especially in Europe, SMGs are far superior to shotguns. Americans made a virtue of necessity with shotguns, but along with lever action rifles, they are a tactical weapon of yesteryear. |
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The range I kind of understand. I own an indoor shooting range and we have 5 rifle lanes, it isn't hard to do just a bit more expensive. The traps require heavier steel and larger drums. I do know that getting government agencies to spend money on needed equipment is like pulling teeth here, so I suspect it is the same on your side of the pond. Ammo compatibility is only a money saving measure IMO. Grabbing rifle ammo when you grab your rifle isn't hard or you can carry a couple magazines like I do on your person. Most sub guns don't use the same magazines as their pistol counterparts so you would still have to do the same with the sub gun right? I know our guys that use UMP 40s have to grab mags just like our guys with M-16s or AR-15s. I'm not saying sub guns are useless. You are right about them being very controllable. They just would never be my first choice as a defensive weapon, and I do have experience with sub guns. I own a 9mm Uzi, a 9mm MP5, a 7.62x25 PPSH, and have some time behind a UMP 40 that my department owns, all of them full auto. I also have two M-16s and two AK-47s that are full auto as well as access to M-16s owned by my department. They are harder to control, for sure, but not exceptionally so and they provide much better performance in tissue. They also easily penetrate soft armor while using regular expanding or fragmenting defensive ammo rather than non-expanding specialty ammo like handgun calibers require. While pistol ammo can be made to penetrate soft armor, it does so at the expense of terminal performance which is already lacking in pistol caliber cartridges even with quality expanding ammo. Having a fair amount of experience with sub guns and rifle caliber full autos, I would definitely pick the rifle caliber every time. I just don't understand why people would choose the pistol caliber if they have the option. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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SMGs allow you to use the same ammo and the same shooting range (a big issue for many departments as they often lack rifle ranges) as for pistols. It's also a controllable weapon, and with the right ammo it easily punches through soft armour. The range I kind of understand. I own an indoor shooting range and we have 5 rifle lanes, it isn't hard to do just a bit more expensive. The traps require heavier steel and larger drums. I do know that getting government agencies to spend money on needed equipment is like pulling teeth here, so I suspect it is the same on your side of the pond. Ammo compatibility is only a money saving measure IMO. Grabbing rifle ammo when you grab your rifle isn't hard or you can carry a couple magazines like I do on your person. Most sub guns don't use the same magazines as their pistol counterparts so you would still have to do the same with the sub gun right? I know our guys that use UMP 40s have to grab mags just like our guys with M-16s or AR-15s. I'm not saying sub guns are useless. You are right about them being very controllable. They just would never be my first choice as a defensive weapon, and I do have experience with sub guns. I own a 9mm Uzi, a 9mm MP5, a 7.62x25 PPSH, and have some time behind a UMP 40 that my department owns, all of them full auto. I also have two M-16s and two AK-47s that are full auto as well as access to M-16s owned by my department. They are harder to control, for sure, but not exceptionally so and they provide much better performance in tissue. They also easily penetrate soft armor while using regular expanding or fragmenting defensive ammo rather than non-expanding specialty ammo like handgun calibers require. While pistol ammo can be made to penetrate soft armor, it does so at the expense of terminal performance which is already lacking in pistol caliber cartridges even with quality expanding ammo. Having a fair amount of experience with sub guns and rifle caliber full autos, I would definitely pick the rifle caliber every time. I just don't understand why people would choose the pistol caliber if they have the option. Obviously a rifle caliber weapon will have better terminal ballistics, but for most tasks a pistol caliber is perfectly adequate. The ammo commoniality is more about buying ammo in bulk than anything. It's cheaper to buy 2 million rounds of 9mm, than to buy 1 million each of 9mm and 5.56. The SMG is also easier to train people on than a carbine, which translates to less ammo expenditure. At the end of the day it's about money. |
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All true but I can put 60 pellets of #1 buckshot (.25" IIRC) center mass on a silhouette target in 1.9 seconds at 15 yards with my 11-87P and Federal #1 Flite Control buckshot. That is pretty good and is only half the ammo in the weapon. View Quote But it still has all the other drawbacks of the shotgun. It's a clunky weapon. |
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Shotguns can't be safely used past about 15 yards with 00buck in an urban environment when the officer is held accountable for every pellet (and the 5 year old two blocks over he just shot). Even with Flite Control you get the occasional stray pellet that flies off the black on a B-27 target from 15 yards when the other 45 pellets are COM. Not a thing you can do, a flaw in the weapon design, but it will still be your ass GD is second guessing and talking shit about. The AR patrol rifle/carbine is far superior to the shotgun for general use and is capable of being used effectively at far greater ranges. Is the reason the police are so poorly equipped/trained the fact that European countries have no problems using the military to keep order and security within their borders? We do? That's news to me. Is the reason the terrorist attacks have so far been in Europe the fact that US police are comparatively better equipped and trained to deal with active shooter threats? You've had quite a few mass shootings, including terrorist attacks. Stay Safe over there, Rob View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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While I'm generally a fan of the shotgun in LE, I don't see the utility of issuing them to European cops, who appear to be more comfortable toting around an SMG, and is probably a more appropriate weapon for their purposes. Any shoulder-fired weapon, including a shotgun, is going to be leaps and bounds better than a pistol, but I'll take a SMG over an 870 every day and twice on Sunday, and a rifle caliber carbine over that if I can. I'm simply not comfortable taking a shot much past 25-30 yards with buckshot, and I'm not big on slugs. At my previous gig, we had the option of checking out an 870 or an M4 carbine for the shift, guess which racks stayed full in the armory? The SMG is going to give a higher rate of controllable fire, and better capacity. Like I said, I still love my shotgun and I won't give it up, but I'm not going to pretend that there aren't firearms better suited for a given task out there. Shotguns can't be safely used past about 15 yards with 00buck in an urban environment when the officer is held accountable for every pellet (and the 5 year old two blocks over he just shot). Even with Flite Control you get the occasional stray pellet that flies off the black on a B-27 target from 15 yards when the other 45 pellets are COM. Not a thing you can do, a flaw in the weapon design, but it will still be your ass GD is second guessing and talking shit about. The AR patrol rifle/carbine is far superior to the shotgun for general use and is capable of being used effectively at far greater ranges. Is the reason the police are so poorly equipped/trained the fact that European countries have no problems using the military to keep order and security within their borders? We do? That's news to me. Is the reason the terrorist attacks have so far been in Europe the fact that US police are comparatively better equipped and trained to deal with active shooter threats? You've had quite a few mass shootings, including terrorist attacks. Stay Safe over there, Rob |
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Why dont the Euro countries look to their center and just copy Switzerland. NOBODY fucks with the Swiss cops, or with the people either. Crime rate is really low, and the only shitstirrers are non-swiss. Everybody knows how to handle a gun, and the general pop. are all heavily armed, with full-auto. And just walking around in Switzerland, it just 'feels' safe. Nobody is gonna go all snackbar there, either. Switzerland didn't get invaded in two world wars for a reason. Unless somebody opens a can of sunshine, they will stay safe thru the next mess, too. IMHO YMMV View Quote lol |
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Only if it's revolvers and woodstocked rifles.
Don't want them to be too militarized. |
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How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. Militarily primarily for breaching, and its not even good at that. Det cord ftw. |
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Militarily primarily for breaching, and its not even good at that. Det cord ftw. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. Militarily primarily for breaching, and its not even good at that. Det cord ftw. AT-4 ftw. |
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Quoted: He was popped in the chest with an AK. He was out of the fight. He rounded the corner and was gunned down. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol. Knew this was coming. As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS |
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Quoted: Why dont the Euro countries look to their center and just copy Switzerland. NOBODY fucks with the Swiss cops, or with the people either. Crime rate is really low, and the only shitstirrers are non-swiss. Everybody knows how to handle a gun, and the general pop. are all heavily armed, with full-auto. And just walking around in Switzerland, it just 'feels' safe. Nobody is gonna go all snackbar there, either. Switzerland didn't get invaded in two world wars for a reason. Unless somebody opens a can of sunshine, they will stay safe thru the next mess, too. IMHO YMMV View Quote |
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. Militarily primarily for breaching, and its not even good at that. Det cord ftw. AT-4 ftw. I mean... yeah, there's always that. |
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How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. While Sylvan says some pretty stupid shit from time to time, he's spot on here. Shotguns are working there way to being completely irrelevant in these capacities in modern times - same could be said with subguns to a degree. Kevlar killed the shotgun |
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Precisely. The eurowennies think we are all cowboys. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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"We don't want necessarily the arms that American police have. We need weapons that can respond," said Philippe Capon of French police union UNSA. "We need to arm our cops like Americans, but don't want to because that's what the Americans do." Precisely. The eurowennies think we are all cowboys. Compared to them, we are... TC |
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Obviously a rifle caliber weapon will have better terminal ballistics, but for most tasks a pistol caliber is perfectly adequate. The ammo commoniality is more about buying ammo in bulk than anything. It's cheaper to buy 2 million rounds of 9mm, than to buy 1 million each of 9mm and 5.56. The SMG is also easier to train people on than a carbine, which translates to less ammo expenditure. At the end of the day it's about money. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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SMGs allow you to use the same ammo and the same shooting range (a big issue for many departments as they often lack rifle ranges) as for pistols. It's also a controllable weapon, and with the right ammo it easily punches through soft armour. The range I kind of understand. I own an indoor shooting range and we have 5 rifle lanes, it isn't hard to do just a bit more expensive. The traps require heavier steel and larger drums. I do know that getting government agencies to spend money on needed equipment is like pulling teeth here, so I suspect it is the same on your side of the pond. Ammo compatibility is only a money saving measure IMO. Grabbing rifle ammo when you grab your rifle isn't hard or you can carry a couple magazines like I do on your person. Most sub guns don't use the same magazines as their pistol counterparts so you would still have to do the same with the sub gun right? I know our guys that use UMP 40s have to grab mags just like our guys with M-16s or AR-15s. I'm not saying sub guns are useless. You are right about them being very controllable. They just would never be my first choice as a defensive weapon, and I do have experience with sub guns. I own a 9mm Uzi, a 9mm MP5, a 7.62x25 PPSH, and have some time behind a UMP 40 that my department owns, all of them full auto. I also have two M-16s and two AK-47s that are full auto as well as access to M-16s owned by my department. They are harder to control, for sure, but not exceptionally so and they provide much better performance in tissue. They also easily penetrate soft armor while using regular expanding or fragmenting defensive ammo rather than non-expanding specialty ammo like handgun calibers require. While pistol ammo can be made to penetrate soft armor, it does so at the expense of terminal performance which is already lacking in pistol caliber cartridges even with quality expanding ammo. Having a fair amount of experience with sub guns and rifle caliber full autos, I would definitely pick the rifle caliber every time. I just don't understand why people would choose the pistol caliber if they have the option. Obviously a rifle caliber weapon will have better terminal ballistics, but for most tasks a pistol caliber is perfectly adequate. The ammo commoniality is more about buying ammo in bulk than anything. It's cheaper to buy 2 million rounds of 9mm, than to buy 1 million each of 9mm and 5.56. The SMG is also easier to train people on than a carbine, which translates to less ammo expenditure. At the end of the day it's about money. I get the money thing, but that wasn't what I was referring to when I said I didn't understand the love affair with the SMG. We have guys that won't trade their UMP in for a nicely equipped M-16. They aren't paying for the ammo or the training, they prefer the UMP. I don't understand why as I see the M4 as a superior weapon and cartridge for the task. Personally I'd rather have a semi-auto AR-15 than an SMG. Quoted:
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All true but I can put 60 pellets of #1 buckshot (.25" IIRC) center mass on a silhouette target in 1.9 seconds at 15 yards with my 11-87P and Federal #1 Flite Control buckshot. That is pretty good and is only half the ammo in the weapon. But it still has all the other drawbacks of the shotgun. It's a clunky weapon. Have you ever trained with a shotgun? It is harder to learn and harder to run, but can be extremely effective. I'm not saying I'd pick one over a rifle. A shotgun won't defeat soft armor with normal rounds, is heavier and typically longer than a carbine, has limited range and accuracy, and has limited capacity compared to a carbine. It also delivers the greatest incapacitation potential per shot on unarmed opponents, can be easily topped off, and can easily accomplish breeching tasks. All systems have strengths and weaknesses. Just another tool in the tool box. |
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If you're conscious, armed, and can move, you're not out of the fight. I'm not talking shit about the guy, he's got my respect. Shots fired and he showed up for the fight. Sadly he lost his life. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lol. Knew this was coming. As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS +1 Teaching someone to fight with a gun is different than teaching them how to shoot a qualifying score. Unfortunately, most police training revolves around the latter in my experience. Mindset is even harder to teach but is critical. As m4pointman said, the guy has my respect and it tore me up to watch him get murdered, but I don't doubt that there is a training deficiency there that could be improved. That isn't the officer's fault, and I hope his death brings that deficiency to light and helps correct it. |
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Have you ever trained with a shotgun? It is harder to learn and harder to run, but can be extremely effective. I'm not saying I'd pick one over a rifle. A shotgun won't defeat soft armor with normal rounds, is heavier and typically longer than a carbine, has limited range and accuracy, and has limited capacity compared to a carbine. It also delivers the greatest incapacitation potential per shot on unarmed opponents, can be easily topped off, and can easily accomplish breeching tasks. All systems have strengths and weaknesses. Just another tool in the tool box. View Quote I have trained with shotguns, and I don't really see any major benefit to them. They are destructive, but so is a carbine. |
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So you admit you know nothing about shotguns. point. k thx Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs. please stop. Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet. How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded. Militarily primarily for breaching, and its not even good at that. Det cord ftw. AT-4 ftw. AT-4s normally make real small holes |
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