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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:39:26 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All for 1/4" of steel. An arbitrary length deemed acceptable by committee. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/15.html As Kevin Harris made his way through the doorway, Horiuchi placed the cross hairs of his rifle's scope on the edge of the door and fired a second shot. The bullet penetrated the door window, passed through Vicki Weaver's head and struck Kevin Harris in the left arm and chest. The bullet had miraculously missed baby Elisheba. Vicki Weaver fell to her knees, still holding her baby, and cried out in agony for approximately 30 seconds before slumping to the floor and succumbing to her fatal injury. The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. "Good morning Mrs. Weaver," Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. "We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?" Following the statements made by the negotiator, the whole family began sobbing loudly. The phone, which had been placed outside the cabin door, rang continuously every 15 minutes as the negotiator continued yelling through the bull horn, at times stating that if they failed to come out, they were all going to die. All for 1/4" of steel. An arbitrary length deemed acceptable by committee. Steve - Thanks for your response. But the fact that you are standing by a member of that team whose actions are illustrated above is unacceptable. And your judgement in hiring someone whose actions are anathema to educated shooters, is unacceptable. Your hiring practices are your own, but is someone who is infamous for a horrible thing 20 years ago the best you could come up with, given the enormous pool of extremely qualified WoT operators who have collected vastly more real world training in the past decade? Insulting, unacceptable and disgraceful.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:41:54 AM EST
[#2]
Quote History"Vengance is Mine, sayeth the Lord" 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:42:33 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks, man. TRG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time? You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations? That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership? That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you? Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills? Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG I know this was back on pg 4 but I'm playing catch up from last night. TRG I agree 100%. A well written and thought out response. Thanks, man. TRG Excellent response, I agree 100%. I have purchased 3 Troy products in the past for myself and family members and will not in the future. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:45:02 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks, man. TRG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time? You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations? That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership? That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you? Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills? Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG I know this was back on pg 4 but I'm playing catch up from last night. TRG I agree 100%. A well written and thought out response. Thanks, man. TRG I guess I go with Samson sights on the new build. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:47:48 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think we should all send a box of pancake mix to Steve. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/15.html As Kevin Harris made his way through the doorway, Horiuchi placed the cross hairs of his rifle's scope on the edge of the door and fired a second shot. The bullet penetrated the door window, passed through Vicki Weaver's head and struck Kevin Harris in the left arm and chest. The bullet had miraculously missed baby Elisheba. Vicki Weaver fell to her knees, still holding her baby, and cried out in agony for approximately 30 seconds before slumping to the floor and succumbing to her fatal injury. The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. "Good morning Mrs. Weaver," Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. "We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?" Following the statements made by the negotiator, the whole family began sobbing loudly. The phone, which had been placed outside the cabin door, rang continuously every 15 minutes as the negotiator continued yelling through the bull horn, at times stating that if they failed to come out, they were all going to die. Beyond fucked up.  I think we should all send a box of pancake mix to Steve. Steve could have saved himself a lot of typing. Just a little photoshop work on a picture of Monroe with the words: "I have no idea what you all are pissed about, so here is Dale Monroe with a pancake on his head". |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:48:19 AM EST
[#6]
tag - 17 pages late
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:52:26 AM EST
[#7]
This would be like me hiring Conrad Murray to lecture on giving propofol. Sure, he can talk about lessons learned, but maybe there are better people for the job.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:53:34 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you hire people for your business that participated in tyranny of citizens and murder. you think a statement will make it all go away? you can start with firing them all. you as the owner have made a disastrous decision, the one thing you as the leader are tasked to not do. your next action will determine the fate of your entire business. better think hard before acting this time. Fuck that, too late. Troy has already come out and said he stands by this decision and employee. I'm done with Troy. Forever. Reap it, Troy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:54:33 AM EST
[#9]
I've been going over this whole situation and trying to make sense of it. Trying to see it from both sides.
After a lot of reading, analyzing, looking openly at the facts, I have made the decision to DITCH all my troy products. Son of a bitch, its disgraceful that Troy would defend this guy. As so many have said, he defended the JBT mentality and still does. He would have taken the shot had he reacted quicker. Hopefully, we see other manufacturers (Noveske) start to do the same thing and ditch Troy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:55:12 AM EST
[#10]
Ugh what a horrible story, just read the chapter posted above. Makes me sick to think about what that family went through.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:57:36 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This would be like me hiring Conrad Murray to lecture on giving propofol. Sure, he can talk about lessons learned, but maybe there are better people for the job. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Wouldn't that be an interesting day if Randy Weaver came in to teach a class on ethics? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 3:58:51 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG Game. Set. Match. Sorry, Steve. I've never bought any of your products for mostly financial reasons, but even if I hit the lotto tomorrow, not one penny will ever go to Troy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:00:12 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Us old folks remember what happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Some of the younger people need to be shown what the real JBTs did in the service of our government. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I didn't mean to get involved in some sort of Ruby Ridge argument (since I know pretty much nothing about it.) I just don't think that what Troy has done merits the response they're getting. We're all entitled to our opinions though.  It may turn into a learning experience for a lot of younger guys. Silver lining perhaps. Us old folks remember what happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Some of the younger people need to be shown what the real JBTs did in the service of our government. This thread has provided a lot of information, I was graduating high school the year RR happened, I heard some news on it but had tons more on my mind. Since these threads about Troy have started last week I’ve been reading as much as possible to find out the details of what happened. Own a set of Troy BUIS that a buddy of mine sold me, which I'll keep but I wont purchase anything from them in the future. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:00:15 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Game. Set. Match. Sorry, Steve. I've never bought any of your products for mostly financial reasons, but even if I hit the lotto tomorrow, not one penny will ever go to Troy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG Game. Set. Match. Sorry, Steve. I've never bought any of your products for mostly financial reasons, but even if I hit the lotto tomorrow, not one penny will ever go to Troy. +2 http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:02:47 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If Dale Monroe is everything that Steve Troy claims him to be, one might expect that Monroe would step up to the plate and voluntarily resign to spare his good friend all of this trouble. I don't think anyone is surprised that Monroe is not displaying that sort of character or integrity, he never had it in the first place. what difference would it make, at this time, anyway |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:05:20 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This deserves to be repeated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/15.html The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. "Good morning Mrs. Weaver," Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. "We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?" Following the statements made by the negotiator, the whole family began sobbing loudly. The phone, which had been placed outside the cabin door, rang continuously every 15 minutes as the negotiator continued yelling through the bull horn, at times stating that if they failed to come out, they were all going to die. This deserves to be repeated. That statement attributed to Fred Lanceley doesn't seem to jive with his own statements in this documentary below. He's pretty genuinely torn up about it through the entire interview, and I'm inclined to believe that. (he starts at 8:55) 
Youtube hotlink here My personal thoughts are that nobody knew about Vicky being killed except for the sniper and his spotter/back-up/whatever. I don't think they told anybody what they'd done. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:08:56 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ruby Ridge was a tragedy, personally Horiuchi should be prosecuted and those involved should be prosecuted. In the end, lessons learned....Troy hopefully learned its lesson but I know for a fact that it was a mistake, should we forgive them? yeah.....we should....end of story....move on.... we need MORE allies...not more divisions.... he said sorry.....  Like dale monroe, the guy they are staning 100% behind. In your own words he should be a felon incapable of owning firearms, more or less teaching people to kill civilians with them.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:10:22 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, here's a brief synopsis of Ruby Ridge for the unaware: ATF guy undercover: "Hey Randy, can you shorten a shotgun for me?" Weaver: "Sure, but I can't cut it under 18". Here you go." ATD guy undercover: "HAHA! BUSTED, MOTHERFUCKER! IT'S UNDER 26" OVERALL! BURN!!!" Weaver: "WTF?" ATF: "We can make this go away if you join the Aryan Nations group down the road and spy on them for us..." Weaver: "Fuck you." *Weaver arrested, charged with gun crimes* *court sends wrong court date to Weaver, so Weaver didn't show up for court* Judge: "Arrest Weaver for Failure To Appear." USMS: "Ok." Someone: "Hey Judge, we sent Weaver the wrong court date. You should stop the warrant." Judge: "Fuck him. No way." USMS: "Well, we should wait & see if he shows up first, and if not we'll go get him." US District Attorney: "Fuck him. Go get him now." USMS: "Ok." Geraldo Rivera: "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK At ME! THE WEAVERS SHOT AT ME!!!!" Media: "The Weavers shot at a media chopper." USMS: "No they didn't, but let's say they did anyway because fuck him, that's why. * US Marshals, dressed in camo hiding on Weaver property, shoot Weaver's son's dog, firefight ensues killing Weaver's son & a USMS Marshal* *Rules Of Engagement created* Lon & Dale: "SWEET! WE CAN SHOOT EVERYBODY ALL UP IN THIS BITCH! WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" Other cops: "WTF???????" Lon: *BANG* = dead unarmed woman holding a baby Dale: "Good shoot, bro. I totally woulda shot her in her fucking face but you did it first. Jerk." Lon: "Well, off to Waco. Gotta get some more face-shooting time in." Dale: "Later. I'll tell congress you were totally righteous!" Troy: "Hey Dale, want a job?" 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:10:28 AM EST
[#19]
Somehow I think trying the get a message to Troy through this thread is like using two cans and a string.
Hopefully, sales numbers send one that is crystal clear. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:15:09 AM EST
[#20]
Quote from Troy's facebook page. "Monroe was an FBI HRT member assigned a mission which turned tragic. We are saddened by the events at Ruby Ridge and recognize the significance of the tragedy. If you’ve never worn a uniform, you might not understand why Monroe was in the situation he was in, but if you have worn a uniform, you know how it is to follow orders in a fluid situation."
I have worn several uniforms and still do. The excuse, "I'm just following orders", doesn't cut it! If you follow bad orders, you are as evil as the people giving the orders. I guess you could say the Nazis were "just following orders". Would you hire them too? I would rather loose my job, because I took a stand for what is right, than to keep my job, by doing something wrong. This is why many law enforcement agencies want robots. They want people who will do what they are told, even if it is wrong. Unfortunately, this type of person is becoming the majority, in modern day law enforcement. (local & especially federal) BTW, just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. To be fair, maybe Monroe has learned from this experience and maybe he would act different, if he had it to do over again?? However, I still do not want to be friends with him or contribute to his salary. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:18:04 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, here's a brief synopsis of Ruby Ridge for the unaware: Well done. I am currently buying or have bought all the parts for an AR build. The stuff I've bought is higher end, higher quality stuff. Troy will never see a dime from me. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:22:48 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with the man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I will still be buying Troy products before during and after all of this internet drama. Same here. I saw this post first appear on the front page and knew it would be a shit storm. The people here are like a lynch mob, and there's nothing Troy could do to appease them. I wouldn't have even given them the satisfaction of an apology if I were Steve Troy. His business is perfectly sustainable catering just to military and law enforcement. I like the Troy slide on rear sling point rings, they save me the trouble of having to take off the buffer tube, especially if the castle nuts are staked. And to get so wound up about the Weavers? A bunch of criminal lunatics that, given a chance to surrender, knowing they were facing certain death, chose death with their kids in the line of fire. Yeah, try to sink an innovative, profitable gun company in their names. Because everyone, even a criminal lunatic, is afforded due process. I like my multiple sets of Troy BUIS and rails. Their business decision is that they're better off focusing on military and law enforcement, and they hired some notorious characters. They proudly proclaimed it. Now we will all see how those decisions affect their business. They will probably do fine, just as you say. It's not getting wound about the Weavers. It's getting wound about someone who was a cheerleader for aggressive ROE that were well outside the ethical or legal bounds for domestic use of deadly force, being hired to continue training people. The Weavers needed to be brought to justice. It wasn't the on-site team's responsibility to summarily administer justice and execute, yet they abrogated their positions as holders of the public trust by doing just that. And all of the Weavers would be alive today if they'd fought in court instead of in the woods. You're defending people who chose to have an armed standoff with the man. The stupid burns bright with you son. Show me where they were convicted of anything BEFORE they were shot to death. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:25:09 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not trolling, I'm asking you to stop. Your attention whoring in this thread is repulsive. Listen to yourself. Why don't y'all take it to the Pit..........or get a fucking room. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:28:00 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1/4" A QUARTER OF A FUCKING INCH Because it needs to be hammered home. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:31:53 AM EST
[#25]
Done with Troy. This one is simple, there is no nuance, nothing else to consider.
I do wonder what Troy gains from the employment of this "sniper". Whatever it is, it can't be anywhere close to what they have lost. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:32:05 AM EST
[#26]
You really blew a save, Troy.
You could have turned this whole thing around to work for you and instead decided to stick your neck out for a scumbag. I am disappoint. Extremely disappoint. No more Troy ANYTHING for me. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:44:35 AM EST
[#27]
Hey Steve(Troy),
If you haven't noticed yet, us here at Arfcom ARE your biggest bread and butter. You just took a huge shit in your own plate, and now you're going to have to eat it. I have personally spent well over $1k on new products from your company. You will no longer see a single cent from me, EVER. It's going to be pretty awesome watching your competitors get handed the money that would have been going to your bank account. Did you honestly think that we wouldn't care in this day and age??? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:46:07 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So much butthurt |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:48:08 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1/10, needs 100% more bandsaw. Had to check my MidwayUSA wishlist for Troy products... nope, not there.  It'll certainly stay that way when I start plowing through stacks of cash when I PCS back to the states.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This thread prompted me to "fix" my rail. It was surprisingly easy and should definitely increase resale value. The downside is that it will no longer be usable to create a JBT rifle clone...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--epyT0R2ZkY/UhwtFvzgZmI/AAAAAAAAEiQ/7lW0WRCgDtE/s1024/IMG_3461-001.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DzYOt2esjiQ/UhwtsBdJozI/AAAAAAAAEik/V8UK6f7Tq6g/s912/IMG_3462-001.JPG 1/10, needs 100% more bandsaw. Had to check my MidwayUSA wishlist for Troy products... nope, not there. It'll certainly stay that way when I start plowing through stacks of cash when I PCS back to the states.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:50:03 AM EST
[#30]
Quote History"Karma is justice without the satisfaction." - Joe Sarno If Troy wants to hire someone who would shoot people over an inch of steel, that's their prerogative. I sure as hell well NEVER buy one of their products. And the people in this very thread who support them, and the people Troy hired? You are a disgrace as an America. If I could spit on you, I would. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 4:52:39 AM EST
[#31]
No.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:02:26 AM EST
[#32]
Sorry. Not another dime. All of my Troy shirts, stickers, swag have been tossed or removed from my stuff. You reap what you sow.....
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:03:12 AM EST
[#33]
Too many other options for quality parts. No more Troy for me.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:03:17 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I appreciate the response, and besides the issue of retaining Dale, there is the issue of the contributions to candidates affiliated with Bloomberg's anti-gun group. Sorry. Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:04:14 AM EST
[#35]
I appreciate the response, but I'm still not comfortable with it. I have a great Troy FFF, and really like the quality of the products, but, I'm afraid I'll have to take my business elsewhere. To each their own I guess.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:05:48 AM EST
[#36]
Can anyone post the Clips of Monroe's testimony from the CSPAN video? I cant figure out how the fucking thing works. Has anyone already done this?
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:06:31 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I appreciate the response, and besides the issue of retaining Dale, there is the issue of the contributions to candidates affiliated with Bloomberg's anti-gun group. Sorry. Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. It turned out to be completely false. That was a witch hunt moment. It's been rectified by the person who put it out, although it seems not completely so. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:07:50 AM EST
[#38]
I responded in the Industry Section post to this sorry excuse of a justification of Troy's position. Not good enough Steve. I am sorry to say Troy will receive no more business from me or my shooting group.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:08:07 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It saddens me to see a once-respected company hire an enemy of our nation and try to justify it here. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:08:33 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I appreciate the response, and besides the issue of retaining Dale, there is the issue of the contributions to candidates affiliated with Bloomberg's anti-gun group. Sorry. Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. That was not the owner of troy |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:08:35 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The final nail in the coffin for me back then was when I heard the authorities mocked the Weaver family the next morning after the mother had had her head blown off and was laying dead on the floor. I couldn't believe it but that turned out to be true in court. I realized right then that we had better be VERY careful in what we say and do because if some people don't like our lifestyle we could be entrapped and murdered if we do not comply. I don't generally have a problem with most psy-ops usage, even that which some may find offensive, because I know that it can be an effective method of ending a standoff. However, in this case the mocking about Vicki Weaver's death smacks of malice, not expediency. That's in addition to the fact that the standoff was a manufactured crisis much like the Waco debacle. The two Troy products that I currently own will be the last.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:08:54 AM EST
[#42]
I would like to hear Troy answer some of the many questions that have been posed in this thread. I suspect this statement was plastered all over many different gun forums. I for one will not purchase any Troy products moving forward.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:10:42 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like to hear Troy answer some of the many questions that have been posed in this thread. I suspect this statement was plastered all over many different gun forums. I for one will not purchase any Troy products moving forward. You got a response subject. Now go await your HRT execution... |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:10:43 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Historical views of one of their instructors.."???!!! WTF man? Have you no ability to comprehend what you read? Monroe was there and testified before congress that the only reason he didn't kill Vicki Weaver, an unarmed American holding her 10 month old infant, was that Horiuchi touched her off before he could. And Troy Industries defends that sack of shit. Think about that. For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:10:52 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I appreciate the response, and besides the issue of retaining Dale, there is the issue of the contributions to candidates affiliated with Bloomberg's anti-gun group. Sorry. Please elaborate here. You cannot make that kind of accusation with no sources. Someone jumped the gun, wrong Stephen Troy, thread got nuked. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:11:03 AM EST
[#46]
Troy will have to make the call, what do they value more - their customers money and opinions, or one person. Easy call if you ask me. If I owned Troy this dude would have already been handed his walking papers.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:15:38 AM EST
[#47]
No shit
 Thanks for the response Troy. I think when you boil it all down in GD, there may be 150 to 200 folks in here that won't buy your products because of this, me not being one of them. Hire whoever the hell you want and keep making great products. *ETA*They will sell. It's funny how GD spouts fire and brimstone when it comes to capatalism and a companies right to make money off their ingenuity but god forbid that same company steps over the imaginary lines in their heads
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If arfcom bandwagon boycotts actually worked, there wouldn't be a single gun/gun accessory manufacturer/dealer left in business. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:15:53 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution. Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're such an amiable fellow. Is everyone from Idaho like this? I think I know a thing or two about rule of law and due process. I used to have to meet with the saranwal once a week to try to get him to actually charge people that were arrested.  A country without the rule of law is chaos. I think you feel like the FBI transgressed against the rule of law, whereas I feel like the Weavers did. I do feel like I'm failing to convey how very, very little I care about the whole situation though. IIRC an FBI agent shot and killed Ibragim Todashev in his own apartment, as soon as the local cops left him alone with him. And you don't see people here up in arms about that... Not that I'm saying they should, but if you're going to get pissy about the FBI schwacking people, you could pick something more current...Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you think the NFA is constitutional and/or good law? I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution. Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight. That right there tells us all we need to know about you.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:18:26 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit Thanks for the response Troy. I think when you boil it all down in GD, there may be 150 to 200 folks in here that won't buy your products because of this, me not being one of them. Hire whoever the hell you want and keep making great products. They will sell.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit Thanks for the response Troy. I think when you boil it all down in GD, there may be 150 to 200 folks in here that won't buy your products because of this, me not being one of them. Hire whoever the hell you want and keep making great products. They will sell.
Quoted:
If arfcom bandwagon boycotts actually worked, there wouldn't be a single gun/gun accessory manufacturer/dealer left in business. HS precision Zumbo Weiss Code Red Firearms CONFIRMED ARFCOM KILLS. Seems to me it does work. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 5:21:22 AM EST
[#50]
Well, good for you..... You do your part then
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HS precision Zumbo Weiss Code Red Firearms CONFIRMED ARFCOM KILLS. Seems to me it does work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No shit Thanks for the response Troy. I think when you boil it all down in GD, there may be 150 to 200 folks in here that won't buy your products because of this, me not being one of them. Hire whoever the hell you want and keep making great products. They will sell.
Quoted:
If arfcom bandwagon boycotts actually worked, there wouldn't be a single gun/gun accessory manufacturer/dealer left in business. HS precision Zumbo Weiss Code Red Firearms CONFIRMED ARFCOM KILLS. Seems to me it does work. |
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