The day following the shooting of Marshal Degan (whom the jury later found had been shot by Kevin Harris in self-defense) we see, from the testimony, the Associate Director of the Marshal Service, one Duke Smith, and the leader of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, one Richard Rogers, being flown from Washington to Ruby Ridge where they would soon take on this "crazy skinhead," Randy Weaver, and his equally "crazy skinhead family." According to the testimony, the two men, their own neatly groomed heads together, are agreeing on a new shot-on-sight rule of engagement. A rule of engagement is a euphemism for the authority under which officers are authorized to kill citizens. Under common law, as under the laws of all fifty states, one can intentionally kill another only in self-defense, and then only if one reasonably believes that he or a third person is in imminent peril of death or serious bodily harm. This, too, was the essence of the FBI's traditional rule of engagement as set out in its regulations in plain, easy English, a rule by which the FBI and its Hostage Rescue Team were fully bound.

But now we see Rogers changed that rule. As they flew over the broad, flag plains toward the mountains of Idaho where ruby Ridge lay green as rubies are red, the law of the land was changed into a simple order to kill. Instead, it now read that snipers, bearing their heavy target rifles with their ten-power scopes that can put a bullet into a pea at two hundred yards, could and should kill any adult at the Weaver homestead who was armed, whether that person is threatening with a gun or not. This, when Randy or Kevin, yes, when even Vicki, innocently walked to the outhouse carrying their rifles, they were dead. Thus, when they ran out to see who had just driven up, as was their well-known habit, and they carried their rifles, which was also their well-known habit, they were dead. The officers who decreed into life this new death-dealing rule of engagement must have known from the hundreds of hours of surveillance films the marshals had previously collected that whenever the Weavers left the house they were always armed. The result of the new rule was that all the adults at the Weavers would now be shot, thus eliminating the troublesome Weaver problem once and for all, and in effect executing the well-known unwritten penalty imposed by cops against any who kill a cop.

Contemplate the enormity of the power of these two men from separate federal agencies as they changed the law of the land and, according to Eugene Glenn, On site Commander at Ruby Ridge, and Richard Rogers with the full knowledge and consent of the Assistant Director of the FBI, Larry Potts, in Washington headquarters. They were changing the law by decree, by a bald, secret order, in barely legible handwriting on a small piece of paper, an order that provides that the FBI snipers can and should kill any armed male at the so-called "Weaver compound." From the evidence, as we gathered it from our cross-examination, we watched Rogers change the law in the same way that any tyrant rules, by overt edict, one that emerges on the crest of a whim, without the consent, yes, without even the knowledge of the people. Rogers, with the power to command those who are trained to kill and who are willing to kill and who have at their disposal countless instruments of death, thus deployed such men and such instruments under these new death-warrant rules of engagement.

...

We were told that before the killing of Vicki Weaver, the new rule of engagement had been amended to read that the officers could and should shoot any armed male, as distinguished from the original language, any armed adult, who presented himself or herself at the Weaver compound. but the claim that there was such an amendment made before Vicki was shot is in my opinion suspect, for not only was the original order to shoot any armed adult -- which , of course, included Vicki -- but it was Vicki who, indeed was thus killed. For it was Vicki who, from the beginning, had been case by the marshals in the role of the leader, the brains, the heart and soul of the Weaver clan, it having been the marshal's conclusion that none of the Weavers would ever surrender so long as Vicki was alive.

After the shooting and after it became clear that the sniper, Lon Horiuchi, lead man on the FBI Hostage Rescue team, had killed an unarmed mother holding her baby, and considering the fact that no one held a warrant for Vicki's arrest (as the FBI had by then admitted to themselves), it seems more than likely that the new rule of engagement was amended, after the murder of Vicki Weaver, to provide for the killing of only armed males. Without such an amendment, how else could the officers convincingly contend that Vicki Weaver's death had been just a tragic mistake?

...

Nevertheless, unbeknown to the Weavers and under the cover of darkness, the FBI spread its Hostage Rescue Team across the way in positions that were unobservable to the Weavers -- six skilled sniper sharpshooters with their sniper guns resting readied for the kill along with six observers. The FBI had made no demand that the Weavers surrender before the officers were to fire. Nor had anyone even hinted to the Weavers that six sniper teams waited with their eyes pushed up against their scopes, ready to kill any armed male who walked out the front door.

...

"I'm hit," Randy hollered, and when Sara saw that her father was alive but stunned, she'd jumped in behind him and began pushing him out ahead of her. They had run, the three of them, Kevin in the rear, toward the house. They had run with their backs to the snipers. And, under my cross-examination, Horiuchi admitted that he was trying to kill the running Harris, for was not Horiuchi a sniper trained to kill, committed to kill in accordance with the new rule of engagement? And Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, weren't they armed? More than that, Horiuchi admitted he believed it was Harris, not Weaver, whom he had shot in the first place, although Weaver stands about five feet seven and Harris stands well over six feet tall. And at the door, of course, stood Vicki, armed only with her ten-month-old child, Elisheba at her breast.

"I'm hit, Momma," Randy had cried to Vicki as he ran toward the door that Vicki had been holding open for them. "I'm hit."

"Get in here!" Vicki shouted, and those were her last words. We know the rest. Horiuchi's bullet smashed into her head and blew off the side of her face. And after she fell Randy pried the baby from her hands, and Randy and Sara dragged the body of their slain wife and mother over to the side of the kitchen where she lay, her blood flooding the kitchen floor. Sara spread a blanked over her dead mother. And after that, the body lay there for many days in the hot August air, rotting before the sight of the children, before the small child Rachel, the crying baby, and the Sara huddled with her father, waiting to be killed. And in the other room, Kevin Harris lay slowly dying of his chest wounds from the same bullet that had killed Vicki, and sometimes he begged Randy to kill him, to take his gun and to shoot him in the head to stop the unbearable agony.

In the meantime, the FBI sent agents who crawled under the house and stuck listening devices under the floor. And although Randy many times screamed out to the officers that they had killed his wife, the officers pretended they did not know she was dead, and they mercilessly taunted the family. "Did you sleep well last night, Vicki?" and "Show us the baby, Vicki? We had pancakes," and on it went. And the officers placed a robot on the front porch that was equipped with a sawed-off shotgun, and the FBI approached the Weaver house only in an armored personnel carrier, a tank of sorts, and the FBI brought up its negotiator who spoke to the Weavers over a bull horn. The FBI kept spotlights on the small house all night, and played loud music so the people inside could not sleep, and the FBI tried to drive the people, if not out of the house, then out of their minds.

And, of course, we remember that Lon Horiuchi, who had taken the stand, had testified that, indeed, he had intended to kill Kevin Harris, who was running for his life, his back to the sniper. Yet the prosecution claimed that the sniper, who admittedly could see and hit a fly at two hundred yards with his ten-power scope, could not see the head of Vicki Weaver through the glass window of the open door. Instead, the prosecution attempted to make the jury believe that the curtains were closed. But from my own discussion with Randy that fact seemed in question, especially after the government failed to produce a crucial Horiuchi drawing of what the sniper had seen when fired.

From the drawing made by Horiuchi during an interview with the FBI at a hotel, on hotel stationery, he draws in no closed curtains at all. In the lower right-hand corner of the window we see two partial heads



as if people were squatting there. Indeed, Randy and Sara had dived into the house just ahead of Kevin Harris. And it was Harris, not Weaver, who presumably had killed a federal officer, and who Horiuchi himself was admittedly trying to kill, whether or not he was carrying out the unwritten law that seemed to doom the cop-killer. Be that as it may, the method of hitting a running target is for the shooter to place the "mildot" seen in the scope on the target -- harris in this case -- which places the crosshairs ahead of the target, thus leading the target, so the bullet and the target will arrive simultaneously. Shortly after the killing this is exactly as Horiuchi himself drew it for the FBI interrogator.

Horiuchi's drawing shows us that he must have known that human beings were behind the flimsy door. He had to know that someone, presumably Vicki or ten-year-old Rachel, was likely standing behind the door to hold it open. Moreover, the drawing proves he knew exactly where it did strike -- at the cross, as he shows it in the drawing. Vicki Weaver's head was behind the cross, that apocalyptic symbol, which served also as the point of aim for the killer.

When Howen confessed to the judge that the FBI had withheld this pivotal piece of evidence, Horiuchi's drawing, His Honor, Edward Lodge, was irate. A legal as well as a moral obligation demands that the government produce all of its exculpatory evidence in its possession, that is, all evidence that is favorable to the defendant. From the outset we had told the jury that the evidence would establish that Mrs. Weaver was intentionally shot by the federal agent. The Horiuchi exhibit, withheld from us by the FBI, supported the conclusion that, at a minimum, the sniper knew human beings were behind the door into which he was shooting, presumably Vicki. But perhaps the drawing, along with the killing of Vicki Weaver, implied more -- that Horiuchi could see where his bullet would strike, that with his high-powered scope he could plainly make out the most minute details of Vicki Weaver's head and frightened face.

What does a judge do with an omnipotent FBI that will violate the law as well as the rights of innocent citizens by withholding evidence that is crucial to freedom?

Quoted:
Anyone involved in Ruby Ridge should be black listed forever.

Quoted:


So, here's a brief synopsis of Ruby Ridge for the unaware:





ATF guy undercover: "Hey Randy, can you shorten a shotgun for me?"



Weaver: "Sure, but I can't cut it under 18". Here you go."



ATD guy undercover: "HAHA! BUSTED, MOTHERFUCKER! IT'S UNDER 26" OVERALL! BURN!!!"



Weaver: "WTF?"



ATF: "We can make this go away if you join the Aryan Nations group down the road and spy on them for us..."



Weaver: "Fuck you."



*Weaver arrested, charged with gun crimes*



*court sends wrong court date to Weaver, so Weaver didn't show up for court*



Judge: "Arrest Weaver for Failure To Appear."



USMS: "Ok."



Someone: "Hey Judge, we sent Weaver the wrong court date. You should stop the warrant."



Judge: "Fuck him. No way."



USMS: "Well, we should wait & see if he shows up first, and if not we'll go get him."



US District Attorney: "Fuck him. Go get him now."



USMS: "Ok."



Geraldo Rivera: "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK At ME! THE WEAVERS SHOT AT ME!!!!"



Media: "The Weavers shot at a media chopper."



USMS: "No they didn't, but let's say they did anyway because fuck him, that's why.



* US Marshals, dressed in camo hiding on Weaver property, shoot Weaver's son's dog, firefight ensues killing Weaver's son & a USMS Marshal*



*Rules Of Engagement created*



Lon & Dale: "SWEET! WE CAN SHOOT EVERYBODY ALL UP IN THIS BITCH! WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!"



Other cops: "WTF???????"



Lon: *BANG* = dead unarmed woman holding a baby



Dale: "Good shoot, bro. I totally woulda shot her in her fucking face but you did it first. Jerk."



Lon: "Well, off to Waco. Gotta get some more face-shooting time in."



Dale: "Later. I'll tell congress you were totally righteous!"



Troy: "Hey Dale, want a job?"

Quoted:
I wish troy was still in business with dicks so I could think about them circling the bowl together.
It seems dicks really DO fuck assholes and pussies.

Quoted:
"On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer.  He was fortunate not to have to take a life at this engagement. Special Agent Horiuchi made the regrettable shot, a mistake for which he will never be forgiven.  Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled "Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”.  I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him.  Dale has not committed a criminal act, he answered all questions honestly, he did not cover anything up and he did not shoot anyone at Ruby Ridge. Dale was asked to join TA for his critical incident management expertise. Dale was never slated by TA for firearms instruction."

Then you get to choose to go or not to go.

"We were only following orders" has never been very popular with me.


Thank you for your response. Now go think about why it will lose you business.

Quoted:
So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time?

You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations?

That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership?

That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you?

Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills?

Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi.  You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi.  Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

TRG

Quoted:


Yep.


I dont understand the fear in letting folks decide cor yhemselves, after reciving all the facts.

It would be fool hearted to support companies who make million off you, then turn right around and cut your throat.

No Diamondback pistol for me.

No Leatherman poducts ethier.

I wont be hoings yo Dicks anytime soon

Quoted:
I'm not trolling!


Well, just a few times! Come on guys! LMAO!

Quoted:



Thats the firsf Ive heard of the being sold.

The owner had openly supported Obama.

Quoted:
Regardless, this seems like a relatively minor thing to hate Troy Industries for. Because some guy that said something you disagree with about something that happened 20 years ago works for them? And in a department where they're not even teaching shooting, IIRC, but EOD type stuff, emergency management and tactics?

Quoted:
So this thread went from 5 to 16 pages while I was asleep and I have too much work to do to read it all.

I just have one question:  
Can I keep the Troy stuff I already purchased on my rifles?

Quoted:
If Dale Monroe is everything that Steve Troy claims him to be, one might expect that Monroe would step up to the plate and voluntarily resign to spare his good friend all of this trouble. I don't think anyone is surprised that Monroe is not displaying that sort of character or integrity, he never had it in the first place.

Quoted:
If Dale Monroe is everything that Steve Troy claims him to be, one might expect that Monroe would step up to the plate and voluntarily resign to spare his good friend all of this trouble. I don't think anyone is surprised that Monroe is not displaying that sort of character or integrity, he never had it in the first place.