Lol, how about you stick to defending Troy, and leave out your pathetic understanding of freedom and individual rights.

Everyone in this country, even you, is a mere simple majority and pen stroke away from being declared a felon.

Don't ignore rule of law, because it is intended to protect everyone from people like you who cannot understand due process.

Bravo, Sir...

You got sued by Knight's? That's pretty cool.

I bought an ARMS sight and they didn't sue me.
I went to a Guns and Roses concert and Axel didn't get in a fight.
I lived on the coast of Florida and Spain never tried to take any of the crap I found on the beach.

My life is dull.

And don't forget his completely 100% wrong understanding of what led up to, and occurred at, Ruby Ridge.

"Historical views of one of their instructors.."???!!!

WTF man?

Have you no ability to comprehend what you read?

Monroe was there and testified before congress that the only reason he didn't kill Vicki Weaver, an unarmed American holding her 10 month old infant, was that Horiuchi touched her off before he could. And Troy Industries defends that sack of shit.

Think about that.

Agreed and fixed...

Truth be told, most already qualify if you look long enough at ALL of the varied laws already on the books.

I will never support Troy, business like them are the issue and there ignorance is apparent

Sharpshooters Say Sniper Was Justified

   




















































 

The part in bold was my point entirely. Don't consort with white supremacist groups, deal in sawed off shotguns and ignore court dates and you won't have to worry about what he's teaching mil/LE at Troy Asymmetric.

Huh.

Well, not sure what agency you report to but have fun with it.

GD, I give you my first "ignore" click ever....

You're such an amiable fellow. Is everyone from Idaho like this?

I think I know a thing or two about rule of law and due process. I used to have to meet with the saranwal once a week to try to get him to actually charge people that were arrested. A country without the rule of law is chaos. I think you feel like the FBI transgressed against the rule of law, whereas I feel like the Weavers did. I do feel like I'm failing to convey how very, very little I care about the whole situation though. IIRC an FBI agent shot and killed Ibragim Todashev in his own apartment, as soon as the local cops left him alone with him. And you don't see people here up in arms about that... Not that I'm saying they should, but if you're going to get pissy about the FBI schwacking people, you could pick something more current...

Interesting, in light of the findings about Horiuchi.




"1. The location of the helicopter. We start with Hori- uchi's own statements about the helicopter. In his testimony at Weaver's trial, Horiuchi admits that he never actually saw the helicopter, and he gave inconsistent answers about where he believed it was... On this record, it seems highly debatable whether a reason- able agent in Horiuchi's position would have believed that the helicopter would be endangered if the man with the gun reached the cabin."


"4. Was Horiuchi reasonably sure of his target? Even if Horiuchi's story about his concern for the helicopter is believed, it still does not explain why he shot Harris rather than Randy Weaver. After all, Horiuchi only observed one of the two men holding a rifle and making menacing gestures toward the helicopter.
Given the current record, we have no way of ascertaining what factual basis Horiuchi had for believing, to a reasonable certainty, that he was shooting the man he had observed look- ing menacingly at the helicopter. As best the record discloses, this was not a case of mistaking one man for the other, but of shooting in the face of major uncertainty about the identity of the target. This is more akin to recklessness than reasonable conduct."

"28 The Senate Subcommittee Report concluded as follows:
The Subcommittee concludes without reservation that the second shot should not have been taken. We believe that under the cir- cumstances on August 22, as Randy and Sara Weaver and Kevin Harris ran back to their cabin, there was not the kind of immedi- ate or imminent threat of real harm to others that could have justi- fied deadly force. The snipers were concealed and remote. Even if a helicopter was present, it could not have been at risk from individuals fleeing headlong into a cabin after they had been shot at. There was simply no justification then present for the use of deadly force, while there was considerable risk of danger to the Weaver children. . . ."



http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/rubyridge/idhoriuchi60501.pdf

He was backing up his partner, just like the HRT Commander backed them up. They were playing by the rules given.

Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you think the NFA is constitutional and/or good law?

Oh cripes.

Turns out the government is doing its very best to expand the group of folks who are "anathema" -- I seem to remember some dems trying to lump in all NRA members as criminal elements.   Then there are those memos at DHS about "domestic" terrorists. Guys with pocket constitutions and bizarre ideas about something called the Bill of Rights.   And let's not start with what they say about joining a "tea party" group

Your opinion that the government and it's agents don't have to really follow the rules as long as they claim they're after "really bad" folks is noted.  But my problem is that the government is labeling more and more folks, regular folks who just want to live their lives in peace, as anathema. And so, with due respect....maybe you need to go read that old bit that starts: "First they came for.......

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Ibragim Todashev's  demise is NOT the topic at hand,Troy's hiring of a jack boot is. Entirely different subject.

Has anyone made some asymmetric cuts in their Troy products yet?

New York Times



Before Skeptical Senators, 8 F.B.I. Agents Defend Tactics in Idaho Shootout

By NEIL A. LEWIS

Published: September 15, 1995



But Mr. Horiuchi's partner, Dale Monroe, who stood with him on the ridge that day, told the Senate panel that it was appropriate for Mr. Horiuchi to have tried to kill anybody near the cabin who was armed because they were threatening an F.B.I. helicopter that was circling.



"We were concerned for the safety of the crew," Mr. Monroe testified. He said that Mr. Weaver and others were seen pointing their rifles at the sky. In the past, Mr. Horiuchi has said that he was aiming at an armed man when he accidentally killed Mrs. Weaver.



Mr. Monroe said that the second shot of Mr. Horiuchi was justified because the men rushing back into the cabin would have continued to be danger to the helicopter even after going back inside.



Senator Specter said he was amazed that Mr. Monroe or the other agents would try to justify the second shot. "I think that's just wrong," he said. "The threat has to be imminent."

 

So, here's a brief synopsis of Ruby Ridge for the unaware:


ATF guy undercover: "Hey Randy, can you shorten a shotgun for me?"

Weaver: "Sure, but I can't cut it under 18". Here you go."

ATD guy undercover: "HAHA! BUSTED, MOTHERFUCKER! IT'S UNDER 26" OVERALL! BURN!!!"

Weaver: "WTF?"

ATF: "We can make this go away if you join the Aryan Nations group down the road and spy on them for us..."

Weaver: "Fuck you."

*Weaver arrested, charged with gun crimes*

*court sends wrong court date to Weaver, so Weaver didn't show up for court*

Judge: "Arrest Weaver for Failure To Appear."

USMS: "Ok."

Someone: "Hey Judge, we sent Weaver the wrong court date. You should stop the warrant."

Judge: "Fuck him. No way."

USMS: "Well, we should wait & see if he shows up first, and if not we'll go get him."

US District Attorney: "Fuck him. Go get him now."

USMS: "Ok."

Geraldo Rivera: "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK At ME! THE WEAVERS SHOT AT ME!!!!"

Media: "The Weavers shot at a media chopper."

USMS: "No they didn't, but let's say they did anyway because fuck him, that's why.

* US Marshals, dressed in camo hiding on Weaver property, shoot Weaver's son's dog, firefight ensues killing Weaver's son & a USMS Marshal*

*Rules Of Engagement created*

Lon & Dale: "SWEET! WE CAN SHOOT EVERYBODY ALL UP IN THIS BITCH! WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!"

Other cops: "WTF???????"

Lon: *BANG* = dead unarmed woman holding a baby

Dale: "Good shoot, bro. I totally woulda shot her in her fucking face but you did it first. Jerk."

Lon: "Well, off to Waco. Gotta get some more face-shooting time in."

Dale: "Later. I'll tell congress you were totally righteous!"

Troy: "Hey Dale, want a job?"

I did say the same things in the circumstances surrounding the Boston bombing, the suspicious circumstances around Todashev, and Dorner. Many were angry at me when I said that Tsarnaev needed to be treated as the citizen he is, unless he were denaturalized.

The Weavers may have broken the law. They needed to go through the legal system to have guilt proven. The FBI circumvented that. What you're conveying is that due process is only valuable when it's convenient to you, and that you don't care if some people aren't afforded that. Those who are specifically sworn to uphold the law are held to a higher standard of accountability.

You should care about the situation because it shapes the present and future, in terms of accountability and oversight. I'm amiable. I just don't like fools calling me a liar and criminal sympathizer, and then admitting they haven't the barest acquaintance with the facts of the case. That rubs me the wrong way.

Well done!

You have admitted that you know little about the incident at hand and you care even less.  Why are you here?  Boredom?  A Troy fan?
 

In the past, I have been a good customer for Troy.  At this time I've got:

1. A 7" drop in rail.  This was the first rail for an AR-15 I ever bought.   (Original price $150)
2. A Troy Carbine. (Paid $1500)
3. A 13" Alpha Rail in FDE. (Paid $170)
4. Set of FDE tritium flip up sights.  (Paid $300)

If I add all of that up, it comes to about $2120.  Maybe that's not a whole lot of money to you, but I suspect I'm not the only one and I'm sure there are others that have more of your products.

I just want you to know, Mr. Steve Troy, that I will not be buying anymore of your products.  Perhaps whatever revenue Monroe is able to bring in exceeds what you think you're losing.  But I think you are underestimating what this is costing you.

You say there is no moral or ethical reason to remove him.  But I would say that no matter how you want to justify your actions, you must agree that there is a business reason to remove him.  That said, if you see no problem with his actions and statements concerning what happened at Ruby Ridge, then I am not convinced that you are the defender of our rights that you say you are.  At least, you aren't when it comes to the government end of your business.

Your statement does have an elitist tone to it, which as a customer and gun owner I do not appreciate.  What about your duty to the rest of your employees?  Is keeping Mr. Monroe so lucrative that you can stand to lose business?  What happens if your business declines and you have to lay off employees?

Exactly what is so wonderful about Mr. Monroe that he is worth keeping even with that risk?  Mr. Troy, I don't have anything against you personally.  I know you've done a fair amount of activism for the 2nd Amendment and you make good products.  But you have to understand that defending Mr. Monroe contradicts the other principles you have said you stand for.

You probably don't care that you've lost my business.  But, you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that you're not the only game in town when it comes to these kinds of products.  As consumers, we have choices.  If it costs me another hundred bucks to buy the Noveske then so be it.  

There was a time when I was proud of my Troy carbine and my Troy accessories.  Now I am ashamed of them.  Can you imagine how I feel, as a customer?  Spending a couple grand for products that I'm now ashamed of, not because of the quality of the product, but the actions of the company itself?

I haven't decided how I'm going to sell those items, but I'll probably take a loss and get rid of them.  We've got the current administration and the vast majority of Democrats doing everything they can to stick it to law abiding gun owners, and now we have to deal with this crap.

Thanks for nothing Mr. Troy.

The helo pilot vehemently denied that it ever happened. The lie appeared to have been entirely manufactured by the .Gov and fed to media outlets.

Yup.

click.

*poof*

I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution.

Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight.

The rules were wrong, and developed on the spot without adequate oversight. They were so wrong, in fact, that they were orphaned - nobody would claim approval. The findings of the subsequent internal investigation were suppressed, and one agent was convicted on obstruction of justice.

The Senate, the DOJ itself, and the 9th circuit all said the ROE and second shot were unconstitutional. Yes, I believe the FBI in that situation ignored the rule of law. I can, and have repeatedly, cited their own sources. You might not agree nor care, but it is a matter of public record.

FO troy  

Surely there's enough Dale Gribbles in here to connect them somehow.

Troy could not have hired ex mil?

We have been at war for over a decade, I know there are good men who would have been better suited for this job instead of Dale.

And for the OP, you did not find any "criminal act" to drop him but you ignored the mountain of moral issues of hiring this man?


I have a rear BUIS from you manufactured from BCM.

Will be my last Troy product.

Troy does not have to issue another statement; their trolls and shills are doing that for them.

Interesting company they keep there.

Troy fan. Like I said, I read the Wikipedia since the thread started, so I'm basically an expert now.

This was really well done. Good effort!

Just out of curiosity, are you capable of discussing anything on fact and merit without name calling and personal attacks?

I must at least commend you on your honesty, if not your ability to understand the risk of overstepping the very document that forms our republic and specifically limits governmental powers. There are a couple amendments that you might not remember.

Amendment IX:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Not quite. He said the reason he didn't take the shot at the fleeing man was because Horiuchi got there first. Of course that doesn't exactly make it less reprehensible.

In a nutshell.

I never thought this shit would come up again, after all this time.

This is just disappointing.

This whole thing is full of .

No, but I hope to pick up those skills at Troy Asymmetric's Negotiator's course next month.

You think I don't know that the Boston Marathon suspect's buddy is totally unrelated? It was just a flier.

I wasn't the one who said it was unrelated. In fact, I quite merrily followed you along on the non sequitur to illustrate a recent example of a citizen caught on camera and verbally admitting atrocious acts still deserving equal protection under the law.

Cool. Well it seems like we've reached a consensus here, so I'm all set. Thanks for the education.

If I need BUIS or rails I will buy from Knights Armament Company.

Fuck Troy.

Well, at this point I think I have enough of the facts to arrive at a reasonable conclusion: no more Troy products for me or anyone I help out with builds (which to date has been at least a dozen people).

And no, no emotionally driven considerations here. The insinuation that only those who are informed by their emotions would condemn this company's actions is both insulting and inaccurate. I teach philosophy at the college level, so I'd like to think that my decisions are formed primarily on the basis of sound reasoning and factual analysis.

The fact is that Dale Monroe participated in an illegal and immoral assault upon an unsuspecting family that resulted in the deaths of innocents and he expressed very little remorse after the fact. He should indeed be black-listed by the firearms community, along with any company that actively supports him.

Thank your Mr. Troy for taking the time to make a statement, but I will respectfully inform you that I will no longer be buying any of your products. I am sorry that your employees have to suffer for mistakes that they didn't make, but it is what it is. I wish them the best of luck.