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Posted: 6/25/2015 11:44:16 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
W2-W5 get the same commission as "regular" officers. Part of my W4 warrant. http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n619/Ordo6502/IMG_20140713_134604806_zps6kdkhzgn.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not very common. Usually referred to as Gunners. They are SME's in their field. https://www.military-ranks.org/marine-corps/chief-warrant-officer-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5 (CW5) is the fifth, and highest, Warrant Officer rank in the Unites States Marine Corps. They are officially appointed by the the Secretary of the Marine Corps. Must be why they're so rare... no such thing as Secretary of the Marine Corps. W2-W5 get the same commission as "regular" officers. Part of my W4 warrant. http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n619/Ordo6502/IMG_20140713_134604806_zps6kdkhzgn.jpg The members of this site wouldn't believe your first name if you told them, sir. I never thought about it till just now. Fitting, for you to be a member. r/s, |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 11:46:41 PM EST
[#2]
Wasn't Pat Rogers a CW5?
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:13:15 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of  ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP. 
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:52:51 AM EST
[#4]
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Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP.
The Army quit making PAs WOs back in the early 90s due to rank disparity between them and their peers in the Air Force who were commissioned regular officers. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 3:34:05 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP.
180A's. Generally an ODA XO. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 3:35:55 AM EST
[#6]
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I thought that was Staff Grade. I got in '86. Its been a while. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Field grade is Colonel and Lt Colonel right? Maj- Col. I thought that was Staff Grade. I got in '86. Its been a while. Company Grade is O1-O3. Field Grade is O4-O6. There is no staff grade, though you do have Staff Sergeants (E6 Army, USMC). I don't know what the AF calls theirs. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 3:56:30 AM EST
[#7]
I don't believe I ever saw a CWO above 2, certainly never a CWO5. Only met one Master Guns for that matter.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 4:19:40 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Army quit making PAs WOs back in the early 90s due to rank disparity between them and their peers in the Air Force who were commissioned regular officers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP.
The Army quit making PAs WOs back in the early 90s due to rank disparity between them and their peers in the Air Force who were commissioned regular officers. I'm not surprised. A WO PA took care of me at Disney TMC on Ft. Knox when I got cellulitis in 1986. He sent me to Ireland Army Hospital, which promptly sent me back to TMC because they didn't treat soldiers after 9AM, only dependents (29 years later I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one). His name was Love...Mr. Love....he called the hospital and raised Holy Hell with some Captain declaring he was putting me back on the bus and they sure as hell better treat me when I got there. That's when I realized WO's had some pull, didn't expect him to be able to bark at a Captain like that. My entire forearm was swollen from elbow to wrist, my Drill Sergeants were already calling me Popeye which stuck with me to the end of BCT. That Captain was waiting for me when I got off the bus. He had a couple of other doctors working with him who were LT's (I was surprised doctors were LT's). Four years later I ended up stationed on an Air Force Base. I learned from several visits to the base hospital that Air Force doctors were commissioned as Captains. PA's and Nurses were LT's. I had a lot of respect for the Air Force doctors. We were Airborne and they seemed to understand the implications of knee injuries to paratroopers. Could be a one way ticket back to leg land. They'd write us up for sprained ankles or shin splints and give profiles so we didn't have to run and have time to recover from our swollen knees. I was nursing a knee injury from high school and they always covered for me when it acted up. I'll never forget waking up from having all four wisdom teeth pulled and the AF dentist had put a GI Joe band-aid over where I'd had my IV, the thought of it still makes me chuckle. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 4:20:37 AM EST
[#9]
I've never seen one, they are the definition of unicorn.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 4:21:52 AM EST
[#10]
My fathers squadron had 3 of them. He laughed about it.
In the Army CW5s are pretty rare as well, at least out in the field. Here at Rucker they are common enough, since all the advanced leadership schools for us are here. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 4:39:47 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My fathers squadron had 3 of them. He laughed about it. In the Army CW5s are pretty rare as well, at least out in the field. Here at Rucker they are common enough, since all the advanced leadership schools for us are here. First Army CW5 I ever met in 30 years of being around the military was a fellow visiting our DFAC at "Camp Nowhere" up in Kunduz Province, Afghanistan. Due to the circumstances, odds are that he was with the 160th, but, of course, didn't ask. You didn't ask a lot of questions of anyone up there. I knew a MGySgt (Ret.) by the name of Joe Townley, who had been with HMX-1. He and I worked together in St. Louis. Good, personable, and honorable guy. For the company we were working for, that was a rarity. I never got a chance to buy him a beer, unfortunately. I certainly would have if we hadn't lived an hour apart in opposite directions from work. (Edited to correct USMC-style "CWO-5" to Army-style "CW5")
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Posted: 6/26/2015 4:57:48 AM EST
[#12]
I know one. He's about to retire, but looks too young to retire.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:08:42 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think Gunner Wade was a CWO 5. Dude forgot more on gunnery and shit than most . f us will ever know. Yes he is a W5. Good dude as well! |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:26:58 AM EST
[#14]
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I thought that was Staff Grade. I got in '86. Its been a while. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Field grade is Colonel and Lt Colonel right? Maj- Col. I thought that was Staff Grade. I got in '86. Its been a while. What's "Staff Grade"? Company O1-O3 Field O4-O6 General O7-O10 |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:31:22 AM EST
[#15]
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There are, or were, two WO's in Artillery battalions. The Maintenance Officer and the Property Book Officer. Piss them off and all your shit's deadlined and you're signed for a billion dollars worth of stuff you've never seen. It's the third thing a lieutenant should learn. The first is you have two eyes, two ears and one mouth: use them proportionally. The second is you will learn more from your NCO's than your boss. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. It may not work out so well for an Lt to try to pull rank my friend. There are, or were, two WO's in Artillery battalions. The Maintenance Officer and the Property Book Officer. Piss them off and all your shit's deadlined and you're signed for a billion dollars worth of stuff you've never seen. It's the third thing a lieutenant should learn. The first is you have two eyes, two ears and one mouth: use them proportionally. The second is you will learn more from your NCO's than your boss. You did not have WO Survey/TA officers? |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:33:08 AM EST
[#16]
WO5 are policy guys, you may find a few at the MEFs or MARFORs but most work at HQMC.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:34:13 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. I had only seen a few CW3s "around" but at my last unit we had 2 CW4s. Now I am at my schoolhouse. We have 1 CW5, 4CW4s, and a CW3. The CW5 is the second CW5 that I have known since I got there. The other CW5 PCSd. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:43:14 AM EST
[#18]
Gunners are quite rare. I knew 3 in 8 years active.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:53:37 AM EST
[#19]
I really hated it when Marines would call any CWO "Gunner". The only people that should be called Gunner, is an 0306.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:59:00 AM EST
[#20]
What's a Warrant officer?
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Posted: 6/26/2015 6:22:13 AM EST
[#21]
I used to work with a CWO5 at the Pentagon. And I've seen a couple others around. Maybe not so rare when you're wandering the lofty halls at HQMC?
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Posted: 6/26/2015 7:30:34 AM EST
[#22]
I'm a W-4 retired. When I got out in 1980, W-4 was the highest rank CWO. When did W-5 first come out?
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Posted: 6/26/2015 7:41:36 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a W-4 retired. When I got out in 1980, W-4 was the highest rank CWO. When did W-5 first come out? 1991, IIRC. Interesting site for the Army side of things: https://warrantofficerhistory.org/ |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 7:43:45 AM EST
[#24]
I ran into a Marine CW5 many moons ago at Redstone.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 7:46:00 AM EST
[#25]
I knew one. He was a good dude and pretty good with both weapons.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 7:49:48 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Army quit making PAs WOs back in the early 90s due to rank disparity between them and their peers in the Air Force who were commissioned regular officers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. Technical specialties. Helicopter pilots. Physician's Assistants. We had a CW02 running our motor pool who was also one hell of a mechanic. All the warrants I knew did more than just fill leadership roles. They were like officers, but actually knew how to do shit (just kidding officers.....sort of ).
Most of the Warrants I met were helicopter pilots. A soldier I served with enlisted went on to become a Warrant Officer. He was killed in Afghanistan serving as an Assistant Detachment Commander of 3rd Battalion, 3rd SFG though I don't know what role WO typically serve in SF. CW2 Scott Dyer, RIP.
The Army quit making PAs WOs back in the early 90s due to rank disparity between them and their peers in the Air Force who were commissioned regular officers. That, and nurses are commissioned officers. PAs are higher than nurses on the medical food chain. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 7:55:50 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really hated it when Marines would call any CWO "Gunner". The only people that should be called Gunner, is an 0306. That is 100% correct. A Marine "Gunner" is specific to this MOS. However (and incorrectly) many Marines will call Marine Warrant officers "Gunner". At one point in my career I shared an office with two CWO3's. This was as a 2ndLt-1stLt. Needless to say I had my shit squared away after that! 
Marine Warrant officers are subject matter experts ... EOD, heavy equipment, MP, maintenance, 0306 (Gunner), intelligence, logistics, motor transport, etc. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 8:03:26 AM EST
[#28]
In regards to CWO5's ... Pretty rare.
There aren't a lot of Warrant officers to begin with. When you consider the Marine Corps is the smallest branch of the service in personnel. Roughly 15-17,000 Officers total depending on RIF, current manning levels. Depending on the MOS and "boat spaces" (personnel slots for that rank/grade) you may only have 1 or 2 CWO5's in the entire Fleet Marine Force for a particular MOS. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 8:05:19 AM EST
[#29]
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What's "Staff Grade"? Company O1-O3 Field O4-O6 General O7-O10 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Field grade is Colonel and Lt Colonel right? Maj- Col. I thought that was Staff Grade. I got in '86. Its been a while. What's "Staff Grade"? Company O1-O3 Field O4-O6 General O7-O10 Like I said, I got out in '86 so I probably got SNCO scrambled up. 30 years of alcohol abuse does that kind of shit.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 8:12:30 AM EST
[#30]
According to this document, there should be 103 CW05 billets in the Marine Corps for FY15 and on. (page 26->)
Back in 2008, I was contractor IT personnel in HQMC at Quantico and the new Postal Chief was female CW05. Then I promptly searched for how many of these unicorns were out there and there were only two female CW05s at that time. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 8:25:20 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It may not work out so well for an Lt to try to pull rank my friend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. It may not work out so well for an Lt to try to pull rank my friend. I am not .mil but from being around several friends and old dog .mil guys I know this LOL |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 8:48:05 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In regards to CWO5's ... Pretty rare. There aren't a lot of Warrant officers to begin with. When you consider the Marine Corps is the smallest branch of the service in personnel. Roughly 15-17,000 Officers total depending on RIF, current manning levels. Depending on the MOS and "boat spaces" (personnel slots for that rank/grade) you may only have 1 or 2 CWO5's in the entire Fleet Marine Force for a particular MOS. As of March 2015 there were 20926 officers in the active Marine Corps 2102 WO-CWOs 5489 Lts 6759 Capts 3875 Majs 1925 LtCols 693 Cols 83 Gen Officers |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 9:27:06 AM EST
[#33]
I had a long conversation with my Platoon Sergeant (Gysgt- Weapons Plt) about putting in a package to become a Gunner. He would have been great as one and he thought long and hard about it but according to him the pay from moving over to be a Warrant Officer really didn't make it appealing. I guess things worked out though for him since he is loving life in Marsoc now. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 9:41:57 AM EST
[#34]
My dad retired as a CWO4. He was in the legal department. He joined up at 16 years old at the end of WWII in 45, got cut a couple years later, went to college, then joined back up. Can't remember how many years total he served.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 9:44:11 AM EST
[#35]
CID guy I knew was a CWO4, he actually moved thru those ranks pretty fast.
They get alot of respect from both sides since they came from the enlisted ranks. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:25:10 AM EST
[#36]
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W4 and W5 rate Field Grade privileges. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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if they're anything like army warrant officers, they're incredibly rare and incredibly old and crusty. CW2 is often comparable in responsibility to a CPT. now, knowing just how long it takes to earn warrant promotions, a CW5 is up there. i recently heard that CW3's and up are allowed field grade housing on post and that CW5's are allowed general grade officer quarters. not sure the validity of that though. W4 and W5 rate Field Grade privileges. How much longer till you get CWO5? |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:29:09 AM EST
[#37]
I am not .mil, but -
I know 2 retired CWO5s. Both of whom are tough as nails, hard-working, American loving men. God bless 'em. 
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:31:26 AM EST
[#38]
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How much longer till you get CWO5? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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if they're anything like army warrant officers, they're incredibly rare and incredibly old and crusty. CW2 is often comparable in responsibility to a CPT. now, knowing just how long it takes to earn warrant promotions, a CW5 is up there. i recently heard that CW3's and up are allowed field grade housing on post and that CW5's are allowed general grade officer quarters. not sure the validity of that though. W4 and W5 rate Field Grade privileges. How much longer till you get CWO5? Promotion to 4 and 5 and to a lesser extent 3 in the active Marine Corps is strickly based on retirement, death and the occasional moral lapse |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:37:20 AM EST
[#39]
I worked for a CW5 (Aviation type) at Fort Lewis, and a friend picked up CW5 (Radar Type) a few years ago.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:39:12 AM EST
[#40]
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No. O1-O3. Butter bars, 1st Lewies, and Captains. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Field grade is Colonel and Lt Colonel right? No. O1-O3. Butter bars, 1st Lewies, and Captains. Negative, O1-O3 are company grade. O4-O6 are field grade. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:40:22 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not very common. Usually referred to as Gunners. They are SME's in their field. https://www.military-ranks.org/marine-corps/chief-warrant-officer-5 No, CWO5's are not Gunners necessarily. If they don't have a bursting bomb, they are not, and should not be referred to as Gunner. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:41:50 AM EST
[#42]
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I really hated it when Marines would call any CWO "Gunner". The only people that should be called Gunner, is an 0306. I had a CO that called our piece of shit CWO2 motor T officer "gunner"... I did not care for that. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:51:21 AM EST
[#43]
I've been in 5 years and I've only saw one CWO5/Unicorn. I saw him last fall in Okinawa when we were running the sqd comp that he and another CWO4 (he was a Scout Sniper and he knows more about firearms than any other Marines I've met) set up the events. Saw him again later in the Philippines. He was old as hell
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:54:06 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You did not have WO Survey/TA officers? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not USMC, but In 9 years of active duty Army, I only ever saw 1 CWO5. It was at Ft Riley, KS. As for WOs in general, I'm still not 100% sure wtf it is they do, or why the rank exists. They're higher in rank than the highest of CSMs, but lower in rank than the lowliest butter-bar 2nd LT. It may not work out so well for an Lt to try to pull rank my friend. There are, or were, two WO's in Artillery battalions. The Maintenance Officer and the Property Book Officer. Piss them off and all your shit's deadlined and you're signed for a billion dollars worth of stuff you've never seen. It's the third thing a lieutenant should learn. The first is you have two eyes, two ears and one mouth: use them proportionally. The second is you will learn more from your NCO's than your boss. You did not have WO Survey/TA officers? They do. PBO will be at brigade, a maintenance WO in the FSC that supports the Artillery battalion, an 4 131's in Battalion HHC. Or at least that's how it is in my ABCT. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 11:09:56 AM EST
[#45]
I saw a old as fucking LT once, turns out it was a CW5
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Posted: 6/26/2015 11:13:47 AM EST
[#46]
Sheesh, this far in and no one has posted this?
Yes, I know it's Army. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 11:15:06 AM EST
[#47]
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Sheesh, this far in and no one has posted this? http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=24345 Yes, I know it's Army. Thats what I was looking for but I couldn't find it |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 11:42:23 AM EST
[#48]
We have a couple in Marine EOD. Crusty as hell and really know their shit. Dont even think about trying to get something past them because they probably came up with it in the first place.
No one tells a CWO5 what to do, they ask. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 12:37:27 PM EST
[#49]
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Promotion to 4 and 5 and to a lesser extent 3 in the active Marine Corps is strickly based on retirement, death and the occasional moral lapse Quote HistoryQuoted:
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if they're anything like army warrant officers, they're incredibly rare and incredibly old and crusty. CW2 is often comparable in responsibility to a CPT. now, knowing just how long it takes to earn warrant promotions, a CW5 is up there. i recently heard that CW3's and up are allowed field grade housing on post and that CW5's are allowed general grade officer quarters. not sure the validity of that though. W4 and W5 rate Field Grade privileges. How much longer till you get CWO5? Promotion to 4 and 5 and to a lesser extent 3 in the active Marine Corps is strickly based on retirement, death and the occasional moral lapse Wow...so, don't hold your breath.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 12:50:11 PM EST
[#50]
I met one while in the Marine Corps. He was the OIC of the school house for my MOS, and the only one in that field. Now I'm in the Army NG and we have one CW5 in our unit but he's a UH-60 pilot. We also have a couple CW4's who are also pilots.
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