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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:22:24 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats the second photo I've seen of Russian tanks flying the hammer and sickle.  All I see is a pile of surely impenetrable sticks.  |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:24:32 AM EST
[#2]
I am wary of any of these photos claiming to be someone’s tank in some place right now because there is a ton of disinformation going around. Without context that is self-evident, it’s hard to be sure.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:26:55 AM EST
[#3]
People have claimed that the tank is obsolete since 1918, and every time they've been proven wrong.
There's no substitute, the MBT is the modern equivalent of heavy cavalry, mobile firepower which can be used to take and hold terrain is always necessary. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:31:42 AM EST
[#4]
Tanks require infantry and artillery support. As combined arms, the team is almost unstoppable. Armor alone can be defeated with ATGMs, provided you have time and terrain to do it.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:38:34 AM EST
[#5]
Quoted: https://i.imgur.com/Mnnwc30.jpeg
Russia's best tanks are getting rekt hard, tank warfare is already changed forever just from the past 72 hours. I hear that claim in every new major war and it turns out not to be true The same happened in the 1973 war with Israel and the Arabs. It turned out to be premature even during that war since Israeli armored forces went on to adapt and were still a decisive factor in the Israeli victory Other factors to consider are that Russian tanks are never as good as people think they are. They have developed a reputation for being easier to knock out than people anticipated in every conflict. Also Russian training and tactics are at a lower level than the west. Some things can be learned from this conflict but I think it is way premature to say this is the downfall of the tank. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:40:38 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It did, some people are not students of history.  The Israeli armor forces were able to adapt and were still a decisive factor in the Israeli victory |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:47:04 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep wondering why we are not seeing the same loitering munitions and suicide drone videos we saw during the Azeri/Armenian conflict. Thought Turkey was all about selling Ukraine those sweet sweet Israeli weapons systems Turkey is all about selling sweet Turkish systems. Ukraine bought 24 TB2's from Turkey but only a dozen were able to be delivered right before the invasion. There are still videos of them conducting strikes, even considering the moratorium from the Ukraine government on dissemination of combat footage. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:50:01 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-tactical/why-are-houthis-rebelling/ The M1A2 Abrams is arguably one of the best (if not the best) tank systems in the world today. It’s the main battle tank of the United States, along with several of its allies — including Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom deployed a number of the tanks in its intervention against Houthi rebels in Yemen. Saudi Arabia is not having the success they expected to have. It’s been three long years for the Saudi military and the coalition it’s leading to take on Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen. Almost as soon as the Saudi “intervention” (aka “invasion”) of Yemen began, the Kingdom started asking U.S.-based contractor General Dynamics for upgrades to the tank. They also ordered replacements. A quick YouTube search will show you why. Houthi rebels posted a lot of these videos showing the M1A2 getting wrecked by simple anti-tank weapons. In the videos above, that weapon is Tosun anti-tank guided missiles, an Iranian-built variant of a the Soviet 9M113 Konkurs ATGM, which uses a trailing wire system to guide the projectile. At just 32 pounds, this Iranian ATGM can hit a Saudi M1A2 from two miles away. The current M1A2 defense system can’t really defend against this simple kind of attack. Reactive armor can help and there are M1 upgrades that could possibly further help, but complete, reliable 360-degree protection doesn’t exist in this family of tanks. A lot their losses are just as likely from poor tactics and their tank crews not being as competent as western crews. Any tank can be taken out if the tactics are not right and the crew is not well trained. Tanks are best used in combined arms with well versed crews in tactics. Arab soldiers do not have the best reputation in regards to training and tactics. Even ones having been trained in the US. I know for a fact that many of their soldiers and aircrew would normally have failed training in US training curriculum but either were marginally passed or went back through training again until they marginally passed. They were given many more chances to pass than their American counterpart. So their competency level is far below ours. And don’t get me started on their maintenance skills. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:50:31 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s showing how inferior Russian armor and tactics are. Maybe. Declaring the MBT dead over this is a little hysteric. It's clearly not dead, but if you were a smaller country next to a larger aggressive neighboring with a big tank force, it seems prudent to load up on ATGMs. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 9:55:11 AM EST
[#10]
Anyone got an estimate on how many Russian tanks have been destroyed?
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:01:41 AM EST
[#11]
This is an example of a strategic PFC.
PFC Jorgensen thinks it would be cool to put the old Soviet Union flag on his tank and the world goes apeshit |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:06:13 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M1A2 Abrams is arguably one of the best (if not the best) tank systems in ....... family of tanks. I thought Saudi M1A2 didn't have the chobam(sp) armor like US and British tanks use. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:07:53 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That Russian tank flying that USSR flag is like the Confederate flags on US vehicles you used to see. Just the crews fucking around, don't mean neither fuck nor all. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:08:06 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s showing how inferior Russian armor and tactics are. Maybe. Declaring the MBT dead over this is a little hysteric. They will one day evolve with an active counter system like automated phalanx cannons or some future integrating drone swarm system. The MBT is going to be with us for at least a few more hundred years just like firearms. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:10:08 AM EST
[#15]
Thanks OP. That's not a monkey model T-72 (or is it a T-80?) either.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:10:52 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is an example of a strategic PFC. PFC Jorgensen thinks it would be cool to put the old Soviet Union flag on his tank and the world goes apeshit  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:17:05 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How well do modern AT weapons fare against the newest version of the M-1? Not a military expert, but people here always say armor and infantry have to work together to protect each other. That said, there have been internet pictures out for a few years of an anti-armor RPG round that can poke a hole through an Abrams and spray the inside with molten metal. Very likely depends on where it hits and if there is reactive armor or other reinforcement. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:23:20 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How well do modern AT weapons fare against the newest version of the M-1? |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:23:56 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tanks require infantry and artillery support. As combined arms, the team is almost unstoppable. Armor alone can be defeated with ATGMs, provided you have time and terrain to do it. Agreed. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:27:33 AM EST
[#20]
We would use air first to take out most of their air defenses and runways.
Then take out command structures and resupply depots next Then take out their power/water/internet grids next Then send it attack helicopters/A10s for ground support roll to take out military vehicles/armor Then send in our troops/armor in with air support Use ground troops to use artillery/tow missiles and other weapons to take out any remaining defenses Russian sent its troops in with armor without first taking out their air defenses and air force. Power/internet/water and other comms are still working (bad for Russian) Runways are still working. Air defenses still in operation, Air Force still conducting air missions and bombings. This was a massive failure from a military objective standpoint. After 5 days Russia is still not in control of ONE city. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:32:02 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the blocks on the outside of the armor were to defend against 80's anti-tank missiles, so we evolved and created the Javelin (which Ukraine is getting lots of) which does a top down attack, in response the Russians added a metal pagoda above the turret, this is (I think) the first test of the pagoda and so far it seems to be useless. The Javelin has a duel warhead designed to defeat reactive armor. The forward warhead takes out the first obstacle (reactive armor/overhead shield) and the second warhead blows a hole in the tank |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:42:25 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. My instinct is that his messaging was supposed to be one of a small, regional domestic dispute on his border. The initial plans were to maintain infrastructure with minimal civilian and Ukrainian military deaths . Their resilience is now causing the Russian planners to examine the other COAs that were worked up and adjust tactical actions. The only thing, right now, that's going to stop Russia from steam rolling Ukraine is decisive action from the West and I just don't see that as happenings. Candidly the West is to blame for what's happening there anyways. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wrong. Putin so far has exercised some control. He's making the same mistakes that the US has since Vietnam. Either go all out or don't go at all. Kid glove diplomacy approaches don't work. When they've had enough of that shit, Putin is going to allow his forces to steamroll them. Especially as Ukraine won't bargain with them. I agree. My instinct is that his messaging was supposed to be one of a small, regional domestic dispute on his border. The initial plans were to maintain infrastructure with minimal civilian and Ukrainian military deaths . Their resilience is now causing the Russian planners to examine the other COAs that were worked up and adjust tactical actions. The only thing, right now, that's going to stop Russia from steam rolling Ukraine is decisive action from the West and I just don't see that as happenings. Candidly the West is to blame for what's happening there anyways. The West shares much blame, but Biden supplied the match when he ran our forces out of Afghanistan like sissies running from bullies. It was obvious to anyone with a brain and watching current events, some dictator was going to see the real weakness and idiocy of our "leader" and decide to conduct aggressive military operations somewhere knowing full well the US would primarily just talk. Which is what has happened. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:45:09 AM EST
[#23]
I think the Javelin has 2 penetrators. The first takes care of the reactive armor and the second makes the kill.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 10:50:34 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the Javelin has 2 penetrators. The first takes care of the reactive armor and the second makes the kill. It's called a tandem warhead.  Attached File
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Posted: 2/27/2022 11:51:03 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-tactical/why-are-houthis-rebelling/ The M1A2 Abrams is arguably one of the best (if not the best) tank systems in the world today. It’s the main battle tank of the United States, along with several of its allies — including Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom deployed a number of the tanks in its intervention against Houthi rebels in Yemen. Saudi Arabia is not having the success they expected to have. It’s been three long years for the Saudi military and the coalition it’s leading to take on Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen. Almost as soon as the Saudi “intervention” (aka “invasion”) of Yemen began, the Kingdom started asking U.S.-based contractor General Dynamics for upgrades to the tank. They also ordered replacements. A quick YouTube search will show you why. Houthi rebels posted a lot of these videos showing the M1A2 getting wrecked by simple anti-tank weapons. In the videos above, that weapon is Tosun anti-tank guided missiles, an Iranian-built variant of a the Soviet 9M113 Konkurs ATGM, which uses a trailing wire system to guide the projectile. At just 32 pounds, this Iranian ATGM can hit a Saudi M1A2 from two miles away. The current M1A2 defense system can’t really defend against this simple kind of attack. Reactive armor can help and there are M1 upgrades that could possibly further help, but complete, reliable 360-degree protection doesn’t exist in this family of tanks. Huge difference in armor on export models compared to domestic models. I don't think the export models get the depleted uranium armor. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 11:52:25 AM EST
[#26]
Saudis and Egyptians get the export model of the M1. It’s not the same as ours.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 11:55:38 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is video at the tweet link of that Soviet Flag flying tank. Ever think a tank crew would be mind-fucking the Ukes? TC |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 11:57:03 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The West shares much blame, but Biden supplied the match when he ran our forces out of Afghanistan like sissies running from bullies. It was obvious to anyone with a brain and watching current events, some dictator was going to see the real weakness and idiocy of our "leader" and decide to conduct aggressive military operations somewhere knowing full well the US would primarily just talk. Which is what has happened. That's all it should and can do. When you run massive debts and think it's sustainable, you're insane. When you run rampant inflation and energy costs and assume it's a good thing, you're insane The USA doesn't need another war abroad. It needs to go isolationist for years and clean up its own mess. It has a lot of work to do |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 11:59:02 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. My instinct is that his messaging was supposed to be one of a small, regional domestic dispute on his border. The initial plans were to maintain infrastructure with minimal civilian and Ukrainian military deaths . Their resilience is now causing the Russian planners to examine the other COAs that were worked up and adjust tactical actions. The only thing, right now, that's going to stop Russia from steam rolling Ukraine is decisive action from the West and I just don't see that as happenings. Candidly the West is to blame for what's happening there anyways. This could be long term strategic to. Ukraine is the weak sheep and the west is letting it be attacked to show Russia what they are in for if they have designs on rebuilding the Soviet Union... Eastern europe lived like sh*t for 50 years and have no desire to go back to that life. They will fight to the death rather than go back. And Russia doesn't have the equipment or economy to support a sustained fight. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:00:54 PM EST
[#30]
More rekt tanks today, holy shit russia is fucking up big time
 
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:04:03 PM EST
[#31]
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:05:30 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if we are entering an era of warfare where tanks are completely useless and outgunned by man portable weapons. They are pretty useful against combatants without AT capabilities, just like an AC-130 can only operate effectively with no Anti Air threat. Both are still relevant. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:06:01 PM EST
[#33]
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:46:20 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tanks have been obsolete overpriced logistical nightmares for a while now. It's the strategic equivalent of a fat redneck who uses a monster truck for beer runs. Maybe our own leadership will take notes,... but I doubt it. Tanks are not obsolete. ATGM are deadly, but so are tank traps and a couple of partisans with Molotov cocktails and the willingness to risk their lives to get close. Proper use of armor includes not letting it operate without infantry support, it is a combined arms team. When there are no ATGM left then the only thing that will work against a tank, consistently, is another equivalent tank. Just don't hang out around the tank. They draw fire. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:48:06 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Turkey is all about selling sweet Turkish systems. Ukraine bought 24 TB2's from Turkey but only a dozen were able to be delivered right before the invasion. There are still videos of them conducting strikes, even considering the moratorium from the Ukraine government on dissemination of combat footage. thats good info, thanks! |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 12:56:45 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot their losses are just as likely from poor tactics and their tank crews not being as competent as western crews. Any tank can be taken out if the tactics are not right and the crew is not well trained. Tanks are best used in combined arms with well versed crews in tactics. Arab soldiers do not have the best reputation in regards to training and tactics. Even ones having been trained in the US. I know for a fact that many of their soldiers and aircrew would normally have failed training in US training curriculum but either were marginally passed or went back through training again until they marginally passed. They were given many more chances to pass than their American counterpart. So their competency level is far below ours. And don’t get me started on their maintenance skills. You’ve clearly never seen how many chances a US female Civil Affairs Captain gets to pass the rifle qualification. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:00:03 PM EST
[#37]
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:10:21 PM EST
[#38]
Unless you want your infantry to fight with no heavy vehicle support, tanks aren't going to be totally obsolete. Though with the advancements in AT missiles and active defense systems, I could see the tank and the IFV merge into a single vehicle, much the same way the WWI Dreadnought and WWI Battlecruiser merged into the WWII Fast Battleship. Not in the immediate future, but a decade or so out. Imagine a heavily armored troop carrier with a remote turret containing some flavor of canon and several fire-and-forget AT missiles and active defense. Think a Namer and a Bradley had a baby, but with more tech.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:15:35 PM EST
[#39]
Not sure if this has been posted. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:16:03 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You've clearly never seen how many chances a US female Civil Affairs Captain gets to pass the rifle qualification. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A lot their losses are just as likely from poor tactics and their tank crews not being as competent as western crews. Any tank can be taken out if the tactics are not right and the crew is not well trained. Tanks are best used in combined arms with well versed crews in tactics. Arab soldiers do not have the best reputation in regards to training and tactics. Even ones having been trained in the US. I know for a fact that many of their soldiers and aircrew would normally have failed training in US training curriculum but either were marginally passed or went back through training again until they marginally passed. They were given many more chances to pass than their American counterpart. So their competency level is far below ours. And don't get me started on their maintenance skills. You've clearly never seen how many chances a US female Civil Affairs Captain gets to pass the rifle qualification. Armor crews should not have to go back over the basic curriculum repeatedly just to get a 'marginal' qualification. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:20:14 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It did, some people are not students of history. I was at Fort Hood in the fall of '73. We were sending a lot of armor to Israel after the Saggers did their thing. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:28:58 PM EST
[#42]
Atgms are scary, that's for damn sure
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:33:21 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tanks require infantry and artillery support. As combined arms, the team is almost unstoppable. Armor alone can be defeated with ATGMs, provided you have time and terrain to do it. This. The US/NATO doesn't move without a combined force of faster more nimble LAV's, mechanized infantry, tons of air superiority, and artillery dialed in. Add to that UAV's, satellites, and side scanning radar detecting armored vehicle columns from a JSTARS plane loitering off the border of the conflict area. Specifically designed to counter small enemy units with AT weapons, and to reduce the numbers any MBT's they're fielding before an Abrams even sees one. I'm sure Russia has similar doctrine, but between conscription, and inferior command, control, comms etc. Poor maintenance and logistics... (Anecdotal reports saying Russian troops were told a mix of the Ukraine was a new training AO, and they were rescuing ethnic Russians in peril) Their ability to put their doctrine into action is inferior. Add to that, Putin has held back crack first line units in reserve, and you've got the less than overwhelming invasion we see currently, and the failure to achieve objectives on the planned timetable. Russia has a smaller GDP than Texas. And shrinking demographics to boot. And it's spread out over the largest country on earth, which they (or former Soviets) never seemed able to capitalize on. Other than their nuclear deterrent, they really can't afford protracted full scale military adventurism. Ukraine's main strategy needs to be running out the clock. It might cause regime change in Russia even. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:34:22 PM EST
[#44]
I think we're gonna see more advanced add-on armor that is designed to be installed in-country after shipping to the war zone. Stuff to wrap around the sides and back, and more hefty top side stuff, and active defenses being incorporated more for countries like ours that can afford it. Having a a bigass gun that can move quick and isn't affected by machine gun fire is never going to be obsolete. Your alternative is hoofing it on foot, small arms, and handheld launchers. It's always a trade off. Unprotected soldiers are vulnerable to drones and loitering munitions just like tanks, as seen in Armenia vs Azerbaijan. All soldiers can do is try to stay far apart. At least vehicles have more po-active measures to defeat these threats.
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Posted: 2/27/2022 1:55:51 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Saudis and Egyptians get the export model of the M1. It’s not the same as ours. Egypt produces M1A1s under license and a lot of the Arab worlds Abrams came to them that way. Almost 1 in 10 MBTs in service worldwide are Abrams. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 2:03:58 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is a game of one-upmanship. Build better armor and that will require better weapons to defeat it. Wash-rinse-repeat. At one time Chobham armor was all the rage but with time, weapons were developed to thwart it. From how you worded your post it’s likely that you know all this and correct me if I’m wrong: Chobham/Burlington/Dorchester armor is now a generic for a ceramic, composite and steel combination. We don’t know what modern Abrams use, or those who do can’t say, but it’s most likely several generations past Chobham and likely recognizable as a descendant. The parts of the Abrams that are covered in composite armor are essentially impenetrable by kinetic energy rounds or shaped charges. That leaves a lot of other areas vulnerable but that’s why you have professionals, tactics and active protection systems. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 2:08:37 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think we're gonna see more advanced add-on armor that is designed to be installed in-country after shipping to the war zone. Stuff to wrap around the sides and back, and more hefty top side stuff, and active defenses being incorporated more for countries like ours that can afford it. Having a a bigass gun that can move quick and isn't affected by machine gun fire is never going to be obsolete. Your alternative is hoofing it on foot, small arms, and handheld launchers. It's always a trade off. Unprotected soldiers are vulnerable to drones and loitering munitions just like tanks, as seen in Armenia vs Azerbaijan. All soldiers can do is try to stay far apart. At least vehicles have more po-active measures to defeat these threats. That’s what MPF or MGS or a Centaro are for. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 2:10:13 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-tactical/why-are-houthis-rebelling/ The M1A2 Abrams is arguably one of the best (if not the best) tank systems in the world today. It’s the main battle tank of the United States, along with several of its allies — including Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom deployed a number of the tanks in its intervention against Houthi rebels in Yemen. Saudi Arabia is not having the success they expected to have. It’s been three long years for the Saudi military and the coalition it’s leading to take on Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen. Almost as soon as the Saudi “intervention” (aka “invasion”) of Yemen began, the Kingdom started asking U.S.-based contractor General Dynamics for upgrades to the tank. They also ordered replacements. A quick YouTube search will show you why. Houthi rebels posted a lot of these videos showing the M1A2 getting wrecked by simple anti-tank weapons. In the videos above, that weapon is Tosun anti-tank guided missiles, an Iranian-built variant of a the Soviet 9M113 Konkurs ATGM, which uses a trailing wire system to guide the projectile. At just 32 pounds, this Iranian ATGM can hit a Saudi M1A2 from two miles away. The current M1A2 defense system can’t really defend against this simple kind of attack. Reactive armor can help and there are M1 upgrades that could possibly further help, but complete, reliable 360-degree protection doesn’t exist in this family of tanks. No family of tanks offers 360 degree protection. The weight required would be prohibitive. The Arabs like to park tanks high on hillsides all alone and that’s why they die. Or they do like the Russians in Chechnya and go into towns without infantry support. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 2:11:52 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve seen a few photos of Russian tanks with “roof racks” that looked like welded angle iron slats about 2-3 feet above the turret, they were using them as cargo racks for rucks and such. If there is enough space between the explosively formed penetrator that a javelin (or other modern anti tank ) the penetrator could be dissipated and thus ineffective (slats on Strykers in Iraq had this) but javilins are pretty big compared to rpg7 and their charge would make much larger penetrator and more required stand-off. Slat armor works well against mechanically fused shaped charges because it wrecks the charge and when it blows it’s just weak HE. Against an ATGM with a sensor that initiates explosion by proximity rather than contact its a lot less effective. |
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Posted: 2/27/2022 2:15:10 PM EST
[#50]
There were reports of 50+ "tanks" from a Chechen unit being destroyed north of Kiev yesterday, with no further updates or pics I'm going to have to assume it's BS. That would be a major development if true.
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