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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:24:29 PM EST
[#1]
"What's it for?"
"It's for sale, of course!" |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:25:18 PM EST
[#2]
B17s in service?
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:26:02 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: B17s in service? I am sorry I meant B52s which are substantially older, but good scape goat around main question |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:28:45 PM EST
[#4]
They were made to fight a fictional peer enemy. They were really good at it.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:31:02 PM EST
[#5]
While the F22 is completely dominant, it wasn’t built to be modular and upgradable. The F35 was built with future upgrades in mind. NGAD will be like a F22 on steroids with all the lessons learned from F35 incorporated
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:32:25 PM EST
[#6]
Air Force likely wants to use funds for some new technology like NGAD.
Edit beat by another coonass 
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:33:16 PM EST
[#7]
There's nothing wrong with the Raptor. It is a technologocal marvel that has yet to be surpassed.
Unfortunately politics and spiraling costs of the JSF/F35 made it look expensive and impractical. Its still a great fighter and yet another in our history of good air frames that never got a chance to shine. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:33:32 PM EST
[#8]
It closes airspace to the enemy when it shows up. Not Raptor’s fault the Russians and Chinese build trash that can’t compete. The enemy is smart enough to know they would be skinned alive if the fight ever happens, better policy to keep the Americans happy than attempt to fight them lol
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:33:48 PM EST
[#9]
No we just didn't have a major conflict with an enemy that had at least a somewhat competitive air force.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:35:13 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It closes airspace to the enemy when it shows up. Not Raptor’s fault the Russians and Chinese build trash that can’t compete. The enemy is smart enough to know they would be skinned alive if the fight ever happens, better policy to keep the Americans happy than attempt to fight them lol Turns out you can just drop a bioweapon on America and the fancy jets can't do a thing to stop it. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:35:27 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While the F22 is completely dominant, it wasn’t built to be modular and upgradable. The F35 was built with future upgrades in mind. NGAD will be like a F22 on steroids with all the lessons learned from F35 incorporated NGADs are obsolete. How many trillions does the USAF need to spend on R&D with no real results since the F18. Compared to other military weapon systems that are actually practical and have real world application. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:35:51 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were made to fight a fictional peer enemy. They were really good at it. Kinda this. Kinda built for an environment of soviet and china super fighters and hypersonic cruise missiles that just isnt materializing. Its also not as networked for the next gen battlespace as the f35. But fuck it was dumb idea to destroy the tooling. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:36:11 PM EST
[#13]
We didn't "win" the cold war based on our technology alone. Part of modern warfare is creating capability that your enemy has to then spend money to counter. I'd say the F-22 in many respects accomplished that in today's "cool war" with Russia and China, even though it only has a couple balloon kills as part of its official record. Russia and China each invested a lot to try to match it and about they time they started getting something flying we were already a generation ahead. I'd say the fact that the F22 may be considered for retirement is that there is something better on the books. Also wouldn't put it past our military minds to play a bit of psy-ops if there is concern of looming shooting wars. Make the enemy think they don't have to counter a certain threat any more.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:36:17 PM EST
[#14]
Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:36:58 PM EST
[#15]
They really ought to retire those B17's.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:37:04 PM EST
[#16]
lol
Also, "Derp!" |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:37:56 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's nothing wrong with the Raptor. It is a technologocal marvel that has yet to be surpassed. Unfortunately politics and spiraling costs of the JSF/F35 made it look expensive and impractical. It’s still a great fighter and yet another in our history of good air frames that never got a chance to shine. The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:38:27 PM EST
[#18]
I think you could argue the opposite.
The F15 started the decline of air to air combat, and the F22 eliminated it. It legit made any country's Air Force, not allied with the United States useless. You're seeing a trend with this in space, with the SR72 and the X37 doing whatever they want. I think the bigger question is, can we keep our own government in line enough so it's not used on us? There's some pretty scary shit out there with FBI Carnivore and GORGON STARE which are being used domestically. We've effectively defeated the enemy without fighting, so now we need to find uses for the technology at home to serve the interests of lobbying. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:39:11 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really ought to retire those B17's. As I stated earlier I meant B52s, which are what, 50 years older. Thanks for your valuable input |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:40:17 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I stated earlier I meant B52s, which are what, 50 years older. Thanks for your valuable input Anytime. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:40:59 PM EST
[#21]
In short, we've been too successful.
Even our ICBM intercept capabilities have become so overwhelming that other large nations are turning to asymmetrical warfare to overcome them. And we're so heavily leveraged on conventional warfare we may be leaving a gap. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:41:35 PM EST
[#22]
Quoted: The military has F15s, F16s, F18s fighter jets still in service. The military still has B2s, B17s, B52s and other bombers in service. The F22 has never seen any real combat, costs billions in tax payer money, and is now in the crosshairs for being retired. I always thought they were impressive and an incredible feat in aerospace engineering. Why the retirement so early in its career versus so many other airframes? I am just a dumb grunt. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:42:00 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While the F22 is completely dominant, it wasn’t built to be modular and upgradable. The F35 was built with future upgrades in mind. NGAD will be like a F22 on steroids with all the lessons learned from F35 incorporated So yes ? |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:42:11 PM EST
[#24]
It is so successful it has never been needed in a peer to peer fight. That is an achievement of airpower superiority held by the U.S.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:43:18 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anytime. I was thinking F17. It is hard to keep track of the fails that costs billions versus the successes that costs millions |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:43:23 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It closes airspace to the enemy when it shows up. Not Raptor’s fault the Russians and Chinese build trash that can’t compete. The enemy is smart enough to know they would be skinned alive if the fight ever happens, better policy to keep the Americans happy than attempt to fight them lol Our Enemies don't have to fight us. They have infiltrated our institutions and convinced a substantial portion of our citizens that America is inherently bad and biological science known for thousands of years is now relative to how any idiot "feels", and that one party can behave in Stalinist fashion with no consequences. We're rotting from the inside like end period Rome. The Soviet Union still appeared to be mighty from the outside until the very end. And they were still dangerous, but rotting.... |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:44:01 PM EST
[#27]
It was a tech stepping stone to better stuff.
Part of the learning curve. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:44:54 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is so successful it has never been needed in a peer to peer fight. That is an achievement of airpower superiority held by the U.S. Then why the F35? Why retire the F22 when F16 are still in widespread use? What sense does that make? Did F22 destroy itself With budget versus actual use? |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:48:58 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then why the F35? Why retire the F22 when F16 are still in widespread use? What sense does that make? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It is so successful it has never been needed in a peer to peer fight. That is an achievement of airpower superiority held by the U.S. Then why the F35? Why retire the F22 when F16 are still in widespread use? What sense does that make? Two entirely different roles between the F-22 and the F-35 for one. Secondly you have to consider the logistics tail and sustainment. F-35 has a much much larger fleet and is a true joint fighter. This gives it the advantage for greater economies of scale. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:50:40 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our Enemies don't have to fight us. They have infiltrated our institutions and convinced a substantial portion of our citizens that America is inherently bad and biological science known for thousands of years is now relative to how any idiot "feels", and that one party can behave in Stalinist fashion with no consequences. We're rotting from the inside like end period Rome. The Soviet Union still appeared to be mighty from the outside until the very end. And they were still dangerous, but rotting.... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It closes airspace to the enemy when it shows up. Not Raptor’s fault the Russians and Chinese build trash that can’t compete. The enemy is smart enough to know they would be skinned alive if the fight ever happens, better policy to keep the Americans happy than attempt to fight them lol Our Enemies don't have to fight us. They have infiltrated our institutions and convinced a substantial portion of our citizens that America is inherently bad and biological science known for thousands of years is now relative to how any idiot "feels", and that one party can behave in Stalinist fashion with no consequences. We're rotting from the inside like end period Rome. The Soviet Union still appeared to be mighty from the outside until the very end. And they were still dangerous, but rotting.... They've HAD to do that because they were completely and utterly over matched. It costs way less to buy a professor than to construct a satellite or develop a 5th gen fighter. We can still keep the technology and win though, that's what they don't want you to know. 
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:54:17 PM EST
[#31]
Russia can't build jet engines well and China has flown exactly one carrier flight with no land divert.
They're attacking us asymmetrically because they cannot attack us directly. The even bigger white pill in all this, is that if normal conservatives get in power at a reasonable level to combat all the neoliberal trash we're exporting, they won't even hate us as much. "Let us be and we won't completely destroy you" Vs "Let us teach you about how your men are women bigot" Huge difference in how we're perceived. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:57:09 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two entirely different roles between the F-22 and the F-35 for one. Secondly you have to consider the logistics tail and sustainment. F-35 has a much much larger fleet and is a true joint fighter. This gives it the advantage for greater economies of scale. If they are two entirely different roles, why retire the F22 so early on compared to just about every other airframe in use? |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:58:41 PM EST
[#33]
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Posted: 12/12/2023 9:58:47 PM EST
[#34]
It's a GREAT fighter.
However what's happened is there's been quite a few breakthroughs in the past ~20yrs, along with the understanding that modularity and upgradability are absolutely vital for weapons systems (Look at the F15, F16 & F18's longevity). We found out for the most part that stealth is HARD to make, and due to that the F22 wasn't made to be easily upgradable, so we came out with the F35 that fixes virtually everything in that regard (And the B21 is the F35 of the bomber world). I LOVE, LOVE , LOVE the F22 along with the X-23 it went up against. We though are at a point where China & Russia are spending some coin getting Americans to hate the military, along with military procurement methods, making them all look useless, expensive projects with no value. The reality is that the US military, at least as far as these weapon systems goes, are getting so far advanced that it'll be near impossible for anyone to catch up. *If* the B21 is able to be fitted with (And I think it is) a "Air battleship" setup, then if a war happened with China, you could see the US military potentially take down every fighter & Bomber they have in the span of a single day. There's been leaks, videos, and hastily deleted posts showing that these systems are getting to the point that we can engage enemy fighters and bombers at 300% farther ranges then they can engage us at......even if they could see our stealth systems. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:00:42 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryWhy retire it and not the F16? |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:02:37 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a GREAT fighter. However what's happened is there's been quite a few breakthroughs in the past ~20yrs, along with the understanding that modularity and upgradability are absolutely vital for weapons systems (Look at the F15, F16 & F18's longevity). We found out for the most part that stealth is HARD to make, and due to that the F22 wasn't made to be easily upgradable, so we came out with the F35 that fixes virtually everything in that regard (And the B21 is the F35 of the bomber world). I LOVE, LOVE , LOVE the F22 along with the X-23 it went up against. We though are at a point where China & Russia are spending some coin getting Americans to hate the military, along with military procurement methods, making them all look useless, expensive projects with no value. The reality is that the US military, at least as far as these weapon systems goes, are getting so far advanced that it'll be near impossible for anyone to catch up. *If* the B21 is able to be fitted with (And I think it is) a "Air battleship" setup, then if a war happened with China, you could see the US military potentially take down every fighter & Bomber they have in the span of a single day. There's been leaks, videos, and hastily deleted posts showing that these systems are getting to the point that we can engage enemy fighters and bombers at 300% farther ranges then they can engage us at......even if they could see our stealth systems. But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:03:48 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they are two entirely different roles, why retire the F22 so early on compared to just about every other airframe in use? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Two entirely different roles between the F-22 and the F-35 for one. Secondly you have to consider the logistics tail and sustainment. F-35 has a much much larger fleet and is a true joint fighter. This gives it the advantage for greater economies of scale. If they are two entirely different roles, why retire the F22 so early on compared to just about every other airframe in use? There are only 180 F-22s left in the operational inventory. Compare that to the 800+ F-16s and it is easy to see why we would retire the F-22. As the aircraft fleet ages, parts become harder to procure, manufacture, or cannibalize leading to lower mission capable rates, longer lead times for MICAPs and increased phase maintenance requirements. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:05:40 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are only 180 F-22s left in the operational inventory. Compare that to the 800+ F-16s and it is easy to see why we would retire the F-22. As the aircraft fleet ages, parts become harder to procure, manufacture, or cannibalize leading to lower mission capable rates, longer lead times for MICAPs and increased phase maintenance requirements. If it is a cost versus actual world world use scenario, so the billions spent on the F22 was nothing more than an R&D project? The F16 is far older than F22, so wouldn’t the parts issue be more of detriment compared to the F22? From a fiscal standpoint, there is no real practical scenario in which the existence of the F22 makes sense. The F16 is far older, but still makes more of fiscal standpoint than the far newer and more technologically advanced airframe. From a numbers point if the view, the F22 only exists for R&D. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:06:27 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were made to fight a fictional peer enemy. They were really good at it. This, basically. The answer to a problem that doesn't exist. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:08:23 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Air Force likely wants to use funds for some new technology like NGAD. Edit beat by another coonass Ngad isn't any specific aircraft. It is the push to continuously develop tech. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:09:11 PM EST
[#41]
The F-22 is the sexiest fighter ever made. That alone should keep that in production and upgrades years on.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:09:33 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why retire it and not the F16? |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:10:12 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was a tech stepping stone to better stuff. Part of the learning curve. Ding ding ding WINNER! |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:10:22 PM EST
[#44]
No. Just the plane it would have had to compete against never happened as the USSR collapsed.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:10:33 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it is a cost versus actual world world use scenario, so the billions spent on the F22 was nothing more than an R&D project? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There are only 180 F-22s left in the operational inventory. Compare that to the 800+ F-16s and it is easy to see why we would retire the F-22. As the aircraft fleet ages, parts become harder to procure, manufacture, or cannibalize leading to lower mission capable rates, longer lead times for MICAPs and increased phase maintenance requirements. If it is a cost versus actual world world use scenario, so the billions spent on the F22 was nothing more than an R&D project? I’m not sure I understand what you are asking. The F-22 was extremely successful and still is but the Air Force has to look to the future on right sizing the force for a future war and the F-22 as a low density aging asset (although extremely capable) may not fit that picture. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:12:12 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I stated earlier I meant B52s, which are what, 50 years older. Thanks for your valuable input More like 70. The f22 is about 30 |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:12:46 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But why retire the F22 and not the 15 or 16? What is the point of the billions spent when the only answer is that you can upgrade the F16 and not the F22. Then inst the F22 a useless endeavor F-22 never had an export model for paying allies to purchase. U.S. only. Zero shut down the assembly line for 'em. F-15/16/35's still being made and exported. Ignorant answer, but another possible angle. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:15:56 PM EST
[#48]
Failure, not fail. No wonder our schools are producing “graduates” who cannot read.
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:16:21 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is so successful it has never been needed in a peer to peer fight. That is an achievement of airpower superiority held by the U.S. Exactly. The Raptor is an exceptional deterrent. |
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Posted: 12/12/2023 10:19:23 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Failure, not fail. No wonder our schools are producing “graduates” who cannot read. That is your answer to my question. An insult instead of answering a very direct question. No wonder our schools our producing graduates who cannot write, not read genius. |
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