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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:19:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@Zhukov, since you posed the question and expressed have your disappointment about our apparent lack of faith in our fellow Americans, help us out, win us over, tell us where your optimism springs forth eternal from, and why we should be optimistic and think a renewal and revival is just around the corner, and the right is about to start it's long march through the institutions. Look around your own circle of family and friends and evaluate your daily life. Are the people you associate with monsters waiting to spill your blood? It doesn't mean that there aren't some terribly bad people out there, like the Hamas supporters that marched on Austin last weekend, but I view the vast majority of Americans as pretty much the same as you and me: They're just trying to make a living and get through life the same as the rest of us. Some of them may have different opinions about how best to accomplish that, but that doesn't mean that they're bad people - unless you pigeonhole everyone you disagree with as evil, because that's convenient and easy to do. And yes, some of them do support policies that I TOTALLY disagree with, but we do live in a democracy and that's what you get. We are living in unprecedented good times and taking the easy way out is par for the course. Excuse me if I don't jump on the bandwagon of possibly seeing my wife and children killed in Civil War 2.0 because you are so bitter. If we are irredeemable, that'll happen in due time and then you can tell me that you were right - except that I'll probably be dead anyway so it won't do you any good to gloat. 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:23:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What you just described is the tyranny of the majority. It's a common issue with democracies, which the US is closer to due to the direct election of senators and huge US Representative districts, then when it started out. Your position amounts to: There are 100 people. 51 vote one way, 49 vote the other. Because the 49 lost, they just need to shut up and deal with consequences, after all, it doesn't matter that the government is acting against the foundational principles of the country, those 49 voted. ETA: You also ignore the fact that government isn't just federal, but state and local also. The fact that the 51% "wins" has been in place since inception of the country, but now all of a sudden you declare it as a tyranny? What if Republicans win with 51% of the vote? Will you decry their victory as tyrannical, or will you gloat and rub it in the face of the libtards? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:26:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did I miss the memo? Are we not a Constitutional Republic anymore? No you did not. America is populated with Dunning-Kruegers that believe we are a democracy. I see it every day on social media. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:26:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That 95% are the low info voters who push the straight ticket party line easy button at the polls. That's all it means. That's not what they really want if you ask them. But just because they can't be bothered to understand who they are voting for doesn't mean they actually WANT those policies enacted. ETA also when the only people running for a seat are just "less bad" than the opposition party, they will get a vote no matter how far they diverge from their constituents' wants. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:37:25 PM EDT
[#5]
OP thinks his neighbors that remember his kids’ birthdays then vote for Biden are ‘friends’.
I’m disappointed that such naivety survived the Covid era. People who vote to enslave you aren’t your friends. Period. Unfortunately you either understand this or not. And OP does not. And yes, we’ve greatly pruned our list of ‘friends’ and family we interact with in the last 2-4 years. If people tell you what they are, believe them. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:54:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did I miss the memo? Are we not a Constitutional Republic anymore? ETA: You also ignore the fact that government isn't just federal, but state and local also. The fact that the 51% "wins" has been in place since inception of the country, but now all of a sudden you declare it as a tyranny? What if Republicans win with 51% of the vote? Will you decry their victory as tyrannical, or will you gloat and rub it in the face of the libtards? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What you just described is the tyranny of the majority. It's a common issue with democracies, which the US is closer to due to the direct election of senators and huge US Representative districts, then when it started out. Your position amounts to: There are 100 people. 51 vote one way, 49 vote the other. Because the 49 lost, they just need to shut up and deal with consequences, after all, it doesn't matter that the government is acting against the foundational principles of the country, those 49 voted. Did I miss the memo? Are we not a Constitutional Republic anymore? ETA: You also ignore the fact that government isn't just federal, but state and local also. The fact that the 51% "wins" has been in place since inception of the country, but now all of a sudden you declare it as a tyranny? What if Republicans win with 51% of the vote? Will you decry their victory as tyrannical, or will you gloat and rub it in the face of the libtards? "which the US is closer to due to the direct election of senators and huge US Representative districts, then when it started out." Pretty sure that's a qualifying statement. Meaning I didn't say the US was a democracy, but is closer now than before. As for this line: "You also ignore the fact that government isn't just federal, but state and local also." The States and the people in them were left to govern themselves. How that was done, is an entirely separate matter vs how the Federal government was laid out to run. This was written about extensively, and the entire reason there is a BoR. The fact you conflate the operation of Federal vs State/local governments may be what's tripping you up? "What if Republicans win with 51% of the vote? Will you decry their victory as tyrannical, or will you gloat and rub it in the face of the libtards?" If Republicans were to win with 51% of the vote, I wouldn't fault them for raising the same argument. No gloating though. Let me ask you a question. If Republicans took that 51% victory and used it to reduce government spending, intrusions and overbearance at the Federal level, would you call that tyranny? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:56:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like I said: Mental gymnastics. You don't think Republicans pull the straight party ticket? But I forgot - you seem to have special insight into what everyone really wants and are able to interpret their motives correctly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That 95% are the low info voters who push the straight ticket party line easy button at the polls. That's all it means. That's not what they really want if you ask them. But just because they can't be bothered to understand who they are voting for doesn't mean they actually WANT those policies enacted. ETA also when the only people running for a seat are just "less bad" than the opposition party, they will get a vote no matter how far they diverge from their constituents' wants. Like I said: Mental gymnastics. You don't think Republicans pull the straight party ticket? But I forgot - you seem to have special insight into what everyone really wants and are able to interpret their motives correctly. "you seem to have special insight into what everyone really wants and are able to interpret their motives correctly." That's been you this entire thread. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:13:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did I miss the memo? Are we not a Constitutional Republic anymore? Unfortunately my dear general. I must answer your question with another question. I don't know what you do for a living or what authorities you answer to. But what would you do if someone in a very high position of authority over you came storming over to you with a murderous look in their eyes and possibly a weapon in their hands and hissed out the words. "Get the memo! We are not a constutional republic anymore!!!" |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:19:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Once the destruction is over, it has to be totally rebuilt.
That's what it means to me. Total destruction to the point of necessitating a total rebuild. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:22:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately my dear general. I must answer your question with another question. I don't know what you do for a living or what authorities you answer to. But what would you do if someone in a very high position of authority over you came storming over to you with a murderous look in their eyes and possibly a weapon in their hands and hissed out the words. "Get the memo! We are not a constutional republic anymore!!!" |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:33:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I thought about adding a poll but that's just lazy and doesn't provide nuance. There have been a bunch of threads complaining about weak Republican leadership and I keep hearing "burn it all down" as a solution for the problems that people see. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what people mean by that, so I'd like to get people to explain what they mean by that term in the most specific way possible. It could mean anything from "write an angry letter to your congressman" to "I want to see the entire country in flames and blood running in the streets". My interpretation when I see someone post that has always skewed toward that latter since "burn it all down" is sort of an apocalyptic vision. Maybe I'm wrong though. If you offer your definition, I would also like you to think about the end goal you have in mind that the burning down is done. What does the country look like, why does it look like it does after it's all said and done, and what is better about it - that sort of thing. Such a wide net, here it goes. When referring to the US and "burn it all down" my head has it as a complete and total government reset back to the original parameters. Bloody or bloodless. complete reset local, state and federal. Preferably organized and one at a time. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:38:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How illogical is it? Several people have jumped up to say that the government doesn't represent the people. Well, if that were the case, then why do they keep getting elected? Did the person who represents your district steal the election? Did MTG steal her election? Was Pelosi not elected by the liberal nutjobs in San Francisco? Everyone loves to blame politicians, but don't polls show that everyone loves their own representative (He totally represents me!) but the overall approval of Congress is in the single digits (It's all the OTHER guys that are the problem). Do you deny that AOC represents exactly the kind of liberals that voted for her in NYC, and do you think the people in NYC are just itching to get on with a Constitutional Convention because they would love to embrace conservative ideals and embrace our ideals when it all burns down? If everyone is so fed up with their pols, why do incumbents win election 905% of the time? Is someone twisting the arms of the voters to prevent them from voting for someone else that isn't connected to the establishment? Gimme a break. The government we get is exactly the government WE voted for. To deny that reality is to live in a fantasy world, mental gymnastics notwithstanding. The illogical part was jumping from reset of the fed gov to omg we must kill all the people who voted Democrat Reasonable people can debate the extent to which various parts of gov represent people. But the Congress doesn’t appear to run the gov anymore. The deep state does. And it only represents itself. The millions of gov bureaucrats don’t do what Congress or the pres say. They do what they want. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:42:23 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:41:40 PM EDT
[#14]
It’s a phrase born of lazy people, the vast majority of who have never seen war. They are basically “throw the baby out with the bath water” types because they are often so incapable of thought to offer working solutions. They are the types that fail to realize that open revolt without principled leadership always ends in tyranny.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:27:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Hmm, thought provoking.
The definition for most people I would say is a total collapse of America. It's a situation in which the productive members of the nation stop the music and force a complete collapse, which in turn make the people of this country with no skill and no work ethic actually suffer. As a result, when children starve, violence erupts. It's ugly, many would die, and great suffering would occur. Urbanites flock in droves to lands with food, tensions rise, many are killed in the conflict. Laws become unenforceable and localized. Justice would be quite swift, the military would be useless, unstaffed. With America's collapse the global environment is anarchy. Primal nations would seek to conquer and grab resources without the US to police it. Many conflicts and wars would rage. In the US, some states would fair better than others, primarily agricultural lands. This is not a good outcome or solution, and frankly, it would be difficult to achieve for whomever desires it. The true solution is much more complex and delicate to execute. The situation we are in is the country is polarized. Two sides of a coin with little to no middle ground. The liberal agenda is a cancer that is suffocating and spreading everywhere. If not cured, it will kill the host. The conundrum is to an extent liberalism needs to be allowed to fester and destroy with the idea that it creates a generation of difficulty with the goal of a traditionalist awakening. Enough siffering to trigger change but not so much it collapses the nation and globe. Entitlement programs become unaffordable for the nation and people realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Conservatism and logic is again embraced over a generation and we are back on the path of prosperity. The other solution is more complex. We either balkanize, or we create a neighboring nation (Mexico) that becomes the liberal mecca. Create a destination, not far away, in which we can export liberalism. This would take great effort from our government, military, and corporations. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:32:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Replace people and institutions
Sometimes with violence |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:34:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The illogical part was jumping from reset of the fed gov to omg we must kill all the people who voted Democrat |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:39:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a phrase born of lazy people, the vast majority of who have never seen war. They are basically “throw the baby out with the bath water” types because they are often so incapable of thought to offer working solutions. They are the types that fail to realize that open revolt without principled leadership always ends in tyranny. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:44:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "you seem to have special insight into what everyone really wants and are able to interpret their motives correctly." That's been you this entire thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That 95% are the low info voters who push the straight ticket party line easy button at the polls. That's all it means. That's not what they really want if you ask them. But just because they can't be bothered to understand who they are voting for doesn't mean they actually WANT those policies enacted. ETA also when the only people running for a seat are just "less bad" than the opposition party, they will get a vote no matter how far they diverge from their constituents' wants. Like I said: Mental gymnastics. You don't think Republicans pull the straight party ticket? But I forgot - you seem to have special insight into what everyone really wants and are able to interpret their motives correctly. "you seem to have special insight into what everyone really wants and are able to interpret their motives correctly." That's been you this entire thread.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:48:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a phrase born of lazy people, the vast majority of who have never seen war. They are basically “throw the baby out with the bath water” types because they are often so incapable of thought to offer working solutions. They are the types that fail to realize that open revolt without principled leadership always ends in tyranny. Were there vets in the ranks of the founders? Your quote is an excuse for bending the knee or else. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 10:36:38 AM EDT
[#21]
So...... Not a weed thread?
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Posted: 11/16/2023 10:38:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a phrase born of lazy people, the vast majority of who have never seen war. They are basically “throw the baby out with the bath water” types because they are often so incapable of thought to offer working solutions. They are the types that fail to realize that open revolt without principled leadership always ends in tyranny. You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. And oh, by the way, you already lost the war. But you are right, I do not have any working solution to the left wing dominance of the schools, big tech (and most corporations to boot), the media, Congress, the Federal bureaucracy, our military leadership, primary and secondary education, the general decline in societal competence, the loss of control over the border and the importation of a replacement people, nor how to address the maintenance of societal delusions because reality is racist / sexist / transphobic. And I don't think you do either. I am, however, pretty sure my kids will have it much worse than I had it, even though I grew up poor, and they are growing up affluent. I think we are living through the Twilight of the American Dream, and darkness is right around the corner. But like I told Zhukov, by all means, show me where I'm wrong, show me what the solutions are. But don't tell me "well, I have it pretty good, so you must be doing something wrong." *I* have it pretty good too, but violins were playing on the Titanic even as the ship was sinking. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 11:03:00 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. And oh, by the way, you already lost the war. Quote HistoryQuoted: You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. And oh, by the way, you already lost the war. For them, I guess it's a reality to frightening to face. I dunno. Quoted: But like I told Zhukov, by all means, show me where I'm wrong, show me what the solutions are. But don't tell me "well, I have it pretty good, so you must be doing something wrong." *I* have it pretty good too, but violins were playing on the Titanic even as the ship was sinking. Most Romans probably had it pretty good during most of that time. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 11:24:49 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our population makes our survival untenable. It is comprised of mutually exclusive groups, with mutually exclusive goals. It won't work. A lot of people haven't come to this conclusion yet. But it's true. You can't have a functioning society when "moderates" are a razor thin margin, and the two opposition groups each want the other gone. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 11:33:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a big problem on our side - people can't, or won't, admit that we lost. For them, I guess it's a reality to frightening to face. I dunno. According to historians, it took over 200 years for the Roman Empire to fall. Most Romans probably had it pretty good during most of that time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. And oh, by the way, you already lost the war. For them, I guess it's a reality to frightening to face. I dunno. Quoted: But like I told Zhukov, by all means, show me where I'm wrong, show me what the solutions are. But don't tell me "well, I have it pretty good, so you must be doing something wrong." *I* have it pretty good too, but violins were playing on the Titanic even as the ship was sinking. Most Romans probably had it pretty good during most of that time. I don't think we've "lost" so much as surrendered much of our country. We are two nations (perhaps more) under one banner. There is a way to fix this. But it involves severely paring back the federal government's power and giving the individual states almost complete autonomy, as it should have been from the beginning, and mostly was up until the Civil War. People should be free to shackle themselves with stifling regulations if they want to. But that shouldn't extend to other states who don't want it. If we could somehow discard the idea that someone in one state has some kind of claim to another state and what goes on there, that would go a long way towards fostering the correct mindset to unfuck ourselves. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 11:38:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine you have a wood shed. The wood is rotted through and through and no paint job is going to restore structural integrity back to the structure. The only real solution is to tear it down and start over. Slapping good wood onto rotted wood or foundation does not fix the structure. Sums it up pretty simple. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 1:24:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a way to fix this. But it involves severely paring back the federal government's power and giving the individual states almost complete autonomy, as it should have been from the beginning, and mostly was up until the Civil War. People should be free to shackle themselves with stifling regulations if they want to. But that shouldn't extend to other states who don't want it. If we could somehow discard the idea that someone in one state has some kind of claim to another state and what goes on there, that would go a long way towards fostering the correct mindset to unfuck ourselves. If everyone would set aside all the pro/anti slavery or state's rights that clogs up our civil war threads and go read Clarence Carson's volume (it's volume 3 of his 6-volume set) on American history 1826-1877, especially the part where he described the economic climate of the pre-civil war American experience (both in the north and the south!).....you'd darned near cry. Reading it described what I'd envision 'home' to be like, if I had a true home on this earth. I want to live in that country, if I must live on this earth. |
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Posted: 11/16/2023 6:02:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Were there vets in the ranks of the founders? Your quote is an excuse for bending the knee or else. Yes there was. And most of them cautioned exactly as I did. You might want to go study how reluctantly the founders went into open conflict. |
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