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Mongols bar none. They had the added advantage of serving leaders who weren't afraid to properly use them (until a Khan died, then everything went to crap).
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Quoted: Well, they fought an enemy twice as numerous and much better supplied while managing to take 1/3 fewer KIAs and and about half as many wounded. That said - I don't think they qualify as the "most badass warriors in history", not by a long shot. View Quote I don’t think it really has much to do with the quality of the individual Union or CSA soldier except that the individual CSA soldier would have been ill-provisioned as the war progressed and the North slowly strangled the South. But that’s actually the problem with this type of question. We want to reduce it to one soldier of type A versus one soldier of type B. But most of what we know in terms of battle prowess is determined by factors that often had little to do with the prowess of the individual soldier. Simply put, if two guys match up and there is no technological advantage for either, the guy who knows his martial art the best, and who is strongest and fastest, is the guy that’s going to win most of the time. In other words, it’s almost impossible to isolate for the quality of the training/technique. Two guys can face off, but you’re never going to remove their inherent individual strengths and weaknesses from the equation. |
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Recent history, I submit. http://www.bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery/public/media/2017/10/08/110217lavery02.jpg?itok=a1ukFCVx http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2017/11/boston_green_beret_amputee_set_for_another_tour?amp View Quote He's big, super smart, and deadly. |
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Some good responses in this thread..
For shear territory seized and held the Mongols and the Romans rank up there at their peaks. Alexander the greats armies also More modern area Smaller units I would go with German Paras , Monte Casino as an example , and the American Para's. Some of the stories on the Gurkha was pretty badass as well as some of the SOG actions. |
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Berserkers....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker Berserkers were especially feared in battle, because they were perceived as invulnerable to fire, swords, and other iron weapons. An Icelandic poet from the 13th century wrote of one berserker: ... a demoniacal frenzy suddenly took him; he furiously bit and devoured the edges of his shield; he kept gulping down fiery coals; he snatched live embers in his mouth and let them pass down into his entrails; he rushed through the perils of crackling fires; and at last, when he had raved through every sort of madness, he turned his sword with raging hand against the hearts of six of his champions. It is doubtful whether this madness came from thirst for battle or natural ferocity. So to review, this guy entered a state of frenzied rage, ate his own shield, swallowed fire, ran through flames, and, having exhausted all other methods of proving his insanity, killed six champion fighters. M Refusal to retreat from fire and Iron is a common theme in berserker mythology. They feared no weapons. Actually, you might even say they were into weapons. Because they ate them. View Quote |
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It's an endless debate. Every generation, every war, has a group of men that have the ability to become great warriors.
These guys did alright all things considered. Attached File |
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Nineteen double Medal of Honor Winners - CMOH Double Recipients https://i.imgur.com/iStgf9q.png View Quote |
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No ancient Romans? They started as a village/town and over time, conquered a good portion of Europe, North Africa, and some of Asia. They had some seriously brilliant generals (as well as idiotic ones).
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And the German paratroopers who defended the Bocage in France and Monte Cassino in Italy - they were tenacious fighters. Honestly, the German fighting man and his commanders of World War II outperformed the U.S., Britain, and Russians both offensively and defensively by a huge margin throughout almost the entire war. The Wehrmacht in general deserves a spot on the list, not just the elite units. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Those German paratroopers that took Crete. Honestly, the German fighting man and his commanders of World War II outperformed the U.S., Britain, and Russians both offensively and defensively by a huge margin throughout almost the entire war. The Wehrmacht in general deserves a spot on the list, not just the elite units. |
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A tad exagerated for sure, as everything that ends up in Hollywood movies. But then again some nobody doint a youtube video doesnt change the fact that they were impressive warriors that had their people trained for war from a very early age. Maybe less refined (and also romanticised and exaggerated by Hollywood) Vikings were people that also had their lives revolve around soldiering. Also the video is biased as fuck and at times downright lies. So the Agoge was all about dancing and poetry and not combat?. GTFO Today it would be child abuse to have a kid trained for combat and beaten the crap out of to toughen them up, but psychological damage aside I bet such approach ended up with pretty badass warriors. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I think they're a tad overrated, this guy makes a good argument to that end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMQmU0epVr4 Also the video is biased as fuck and at times downright lies. So the Agoge was all about dancing and poetry and not combat?. GTFO Today it would be child abuse to have a kid trained for combat and beaten the crap out of to toughen them up, but psychological damage aside I bet such approach ended up with pretty badass warriors. It wasn't a decade-long boot camp. ETA - as for the most "badass" fighters, add me to the list voting for modern, western special forces groups. |
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I would really like to know the standards and method of ranking firepower killratio endurance amount of world conquored historic impact as an individual the juramentado of the Moro in the south Philippines http://cdn.manilatimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Datu20140629.jpg these guys are the reason the US1911 was issued hopped up on stimulants the tifgt bandages acted as a tourniquet to both prevent bleeding & hold the fighter up even after the blood was drained beyond belief. there are stories of attacks in Sulu where Juramentados took 12 or ore hits from 30-40 Krag rifels and continued to hack up US troops. http://myvfw.org/nc/post7313/files/2013/08/bagask.jpg View Quote |
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I'm going to throw the Comanches out there. They were some mean motherfuckers.
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Colonel John Ripley, USMC- read his story if you want to see someone that embodies badass. Navy Cross recipient Force Recon officer who is the only guy to graduate BUD/S, the Army's Vietnam era SOF pipeline, the British Royal Marines course, and the Marine Corps Amphibious Reconnaissance Course.
And just a generally standup guy. View Quote |
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Sergeant Johnson in Iraq was totally badass from what I have read.
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The agoge in Sparta was a school meant to produce well-rounded citizens. They taught every subject from manners to mathematics, poetry to military discipline. It wasn't a decade-long boot camp. View Quote And yes, it was essentially a decade long boot camp. It took completely untrained boys who at that point were raised by women and put them through a level of conditions that bordered on torture training them on tasks they believed soldier/warriors needed to possess, all taught by fully trained Spartiates and supervised by the elders. They lived in "barracks" among men, the pheiditia, ate and slept among other men, including the elders of their mess. Forced starvation to encourage them to steal, so they would be better at foraging on campaign. No clothing besides a single tunic to ensure they were tough as nails and adverse to climate, even in winter. Routine physical beatings, to toughen them. Military training in drill and weapons, produce a better trained soldier. Encouraging of sports, for a more athletic warrior. Music and dance, to emphasize synchronicity and expound martial concepts. Murder/terrorism against Helots, to acclimatize them to the necessities of Spartan life of cruelty in war and to continue the subjugation of the Helot slaves. |
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Just off the top of my head, Israelis, Rhodesians, SOG era SF, and I'll sprinkle in some old west gunfighters.
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And the German paratroopers who defended the Bocage in France and Monte Cassino in Italy - they were tenacious fighters. Honestly, the German fighting man and his commanders of World War II outperformed the U.S., Britain, and Russians both offensively and defensively by a huge margin throughout almost the entire war. The Wehrmacht in general deserves a spot on the list, not just the elite units. View Quote |
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The Irish!
God made wiskey so they would not take over the world. |
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Quoted: That is complete crap. Well rounded citizen? A full Spartiate citizen was allowed to pursue no career other than warrior, the agoge was what the Spartans designed to produce them. They practiced no arts besides music and dance (both to glorify war). They had no use for mathematics or various other arts that other city states encouraged. They were the opposite of well rounded. The only manners the Spartans respected was their pre-Stoic philosophy dedicated to toughness and brevity and respect, which was a part of their discipline. Are you referring to them standing up to offer seats at the Olympics? Or when they tossed a Persian diplomat into a well? And yes, it was essentially a decade long boot camp. It took completely untrained boys who at that point were raised by women and put them through a level of conditions that bordered on torture training them on tasks they believed soldier/warriors needed to possess, all taught by fully trained Spartiates and supervised by the elders. They lived in "barracks" among men, the pheiditia, ate and slept among other men, including the elders of their mess. Forced starvation to encourage them to steal, so they would be better at foraging on campaign. No clothing besides a single tunic to ensure they were tough as nails and adverse to climate, even in winter. Routine physical beatings, to toughen them. Military training in drill and weapons, produce a better trained soldier. Encouraging of sports, for a more athletic warrior. Music and dance, to emphasize synchronicity and expound martial concepts. Murder/terrorism against Helots, to acclimatize them to the necessities of Spartan life of cruelty in war and to continue the subjugation of the Helot slaves. View Quote I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. |
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Quoted: And after all that they still weren’t exactly leaps and bounds ahead of other Greek hoplites. At the battle of 300 champions they didn’t even win against Argos, 1 spartan left standing and 2 from Argos. I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. View Quote The only wall Sparta had was a "wall of men". |
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All the history I have read of the Peloponnesian war said that every spring for years the Spartans would march to Athens and the Athenians would hide inside their city walls and watch the Spartans destroy their country side. And the times they did go out to meet them they got worked. So Athens used their Naval power to attack the Spartans and their allies instead. The only wall Sparta had was a "wall of men". View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: And after all that they still weren’t exactly leaps and bounds ahead of other Greek hoplites. At the battle of 300 champions they didn’t even win against Argos, 1 spartan left standing and 2 from Argos. I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. The only wall Sparta had was a "wall of men". Afterward when they didn't they got their teeth kicked in by a smaller army. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra Not saying that the Spartans weren't a formidable force, but there's a lot of myth around them. Most people quote the myths as opposed to the history. |
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American Revolution Minute Men! Got shit done led by the idea of freedom against unsurmountable odds.
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No ancient Romans? They started as a village/town and over time, conquered a good portion of Europe, North Africa, and some of Asia. They had some seriously brilliant generals (as well as idiotic ones). View Quote |
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Indeed. Their adaptability and national emphasis on service to the state served them quite well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No ancient Romans? They started as a village/town and over time, conquered a good portion of Europe, North Africa, and some of Asia. They had some seriously brilliant generals (as well as idiotic ones). When the forces and arms were equal (I.E. Hannibal) they would get their butts kicked just like everyone else. The main reason the barbarians were even able to conquer Rome was because they had caught up with them in the arms race. But, I did say "use whatever criteria you wanted". So, Meh. |
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At the time I asked I didn't include them because the main reason why they were so successful is because they employed technologies and organizations that their enemies (for the most part) didn't have. Frankish barbarians were heavy duty fighters with their axes but when up against a shield wall they were cut down. The revolt under Boudicca failed because on wet morning grass the Roman hobnailed sandals were superior to the barbarians' bare feet. When the forces and arms were equal (I.E. Hannibal) they would get their butts kicked just like everyone else. The main reason the barbarians were even able to conquer Rome was because they had caught up with them in the arms race. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No ancient Romans? They started as a village/town and over time, conquered a good portion of Europe, North Africa, and some of Asia. They had some seriously brilliant generals (as well as idiotic ones). When the forces and arms were equal (I.E. Hannibal) they would get their butts kicked just like everyone else. The main reason the barbarians were even able to conquer Rome was because they had caught up with them in the arms race. |
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There were some Rhodesians you wouldn't have wanted to fuck with.
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Recent history, I submit. http://www.bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery/public/media/2017/10/08/110217lavery02.jpg?itok=a1ukFCVx http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2017/11/boston_green_beret_amputee_set_for_another_tour?amp View Quote I know I didn't have a choice in the matter when I got my P3 profile. I shattered my femur a few weeks after a guy lost his leg......he was running on a prosthetic while I was still on crutches. You can replace a limb faster than heal one, I suppose. He was allowed to stay in as long as he reclassified and I was given the same option but elected not to because I couldn't suffer the indignity of being a leg and a pogue. I wonder if it is because he is 18 series and they get to do their own thing or if the Army has just evolved on the matter that much in the 12 years I've been out. I'm sure it is a bit of both as so much has changed (like the fags at West Point thread illustrates) over the years but SOCOM has always been a whole different world anyway. Back to the subject at hand the OP named pretty much my top 3: Samurai, Viking, Spartans. It would be hard to pick who was the "best" as everything had its strengths. For example the Vikings were more mobile than any of these other forces we're talking about in the ancient world. They sailed out of Norway and raided the Mediterranean and Middle East, not just their nearby neighbors. Who else can lay claim to that? They may not have had the lifetime solely dedicated to war like the Samurai, or the agoge of the Spartans but they carved an existence out of a rugged land and didn't "just get by" but had quality metallurgy and advances in ship-building that let them do unprecedented things. When I was a kid it was highly controversial that Vikings may have reached North America (kind of like at the same time, that an asteroid hit 65 million years ago and dinosaurs could have been warm blooded or birds) other than Greenland and now it is accepted as a fact. Quite a reach, I'd say with an impact on history far above what their actual population was. |
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And after all that they still weren’t exactly leaps and bounds ahead of other Greek hoplites. At the battle of 300 champions they didn’t even win against Argos, 1 spartan left standing and 2 from Argos. I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That is complete crap. Well rounded citizen? A full Spartiate citizen was allowed to pursue no career other than warrior, the agoge was what the Spartans designed to produce them. They practiced no arts besides music and dance (both to glorify war). They had no use for mathematics or various other arts that other city states encouraged. They were the opposite of well rounded. The only manners the Spartans respected was their pre-Stoic philosophy dedicated to toughness and brevity and respect, which was a part of their discipline. Are you referring to them standing up to offer seats at the Olympics? Or when they tossed a Persian diplomat into a well? And yes, it was essentially a decade long boot camp. It took completely untrained boys who at that point were raised by women and put them through a level of conditions that bordered on torture training them on tasks they believed soldier/warriors needed to possess, all taught by fully trained Spartiates and supervised by the elders. They lived in "barracks" among men, the pheiditia, ate and slept among other men, including the elders of their mess. Forced starvation to encourage them to steal, so they would be better at foraging on campaign. No clothing besides a single tunic to ensure they were tough as nails and adverse to climate, even in winter. Routine physical beatings, to toughen them. Military training in drill and weapons, produce a better trained soldier. Encouraging of sports, for a more athletic warrior. Music and dance, to emphasize synchronicity and expound martial concepts. Murder/terrorism against Helots, to acclimatize them to the necessities of Spartan life of cruelty in war and to continue the subjugation of the Helot slaves. I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. So if not for hoplite vs hoplite, why did Sparta do it? Necessity. Early on Sparta conquered its neighbor, Messenia. The population was completely enslaved by the Spartans, turned into essentially a permanent class of field hands, serfs. However, as any culture who practices large scale slavery can attest, revolts are always a pressing concern. And it was that threat, constant worry about slave uprisings, plus normal Doric martial culture, plus the freedom of no longer having to individually sow or plow or harvest, that allowed the Spartans to focus on warfare and martial training. Thus the laws of the possibly mythical Lycurgus, who the Spartans believed was the one who instituted all the reforms that transformed their society into the martial state it became. The point that a few other successful Greek city states could be victorious in battle, later even against Spartan hoplites, while essentially doing it all as weekend warriors has some truth to it. But for many hundreds of years the Spartans were essentially unbeatable on land; so while the Athenians might be able to defeat the Persians without resorting to Spartan measures, when fighting the Spartans themselves on land they were largely losing. Even in those times when the Spartans did lose battles, it was rarely a significant loss and often there were some rather large extenuating circumstances involved. It wasn't until they were getting beat fair and square, mano e mano, that their power really started waning. But a lot of that had to do with social problems inside their own society. Land ownership issues coupled with declining number of full Spartiates. More successful slave revolts. Massive loss of life in the 5th Century BC earthquakes that they never really recovered from. Want to see how successful Spartans were and their lifestyle? After the peace with Athens following their defeat, when the Tyrants still ran Athens and democracy was banished, the Spartans opened up the agoge to select families of the elite of Athens. And a shit load of them took it up, sending their children to Sparta to get that training. It wasn't boot camp in the sense that it was training them to fight conventional wars, it was simply the most extreme form of child rearing available to the open classes. While any Greek could independently raise their child near identically to the Spartan Agoge, the latter was state run; family WAS NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE THEIR OWN SONS. Only the state was allowed. It was the same with infanticide. Something all Greek peoples did (basically all ancient did it), with the Spartans it too was a state prerogative; the parents had zero say, the Euphors, elected officials, made the call whether or not to toss the baby into a gorge for the wolves to eat. Spartans were the least free Greeks out there, a more miserable, son-of-a-bitch group of people in history are hard to find. The closest comparison to them are the North Koreans. While great warriors, they were horrible human beings. |
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Sparta did well against Athens...when they had material support from the Persians. Afterward when they didn't they got their teeth kicked in by a smaller army. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra Not saying that the Spartans weren't a formidable force, but there's a lot of myth around them. Most people quote the myths as opposed to the history. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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And after all that they still weren’t exactly leaps and bounds ahead of other Greek hoplites. At the battle of 300 champions they didn’t even win against Argos, 1 spartan left standing and 2 from Argos. I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. The only wall Sparta had was a "wall of men". Afterward when they didn't they got their teeth kicked in by a smaller army. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra Not saying that the Spartans weren't a formidable force, but there's a lot of myth around them. Most people quote the myths as opposed to the history. The battle of Leuctra was fought nearly 500 years after the reforms of Lycurgus. Half a millennium. And before that battle Spartan culture was already starting to collapse on itself; Leuctra was the result of that, not the start of it. |
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